Stealth gets you there. The arrow kills the animal

What about public where they get pushed around after injury? Trust a double lung there too? Why not look for the heart?

i like how no one has tried to argue with you yet lol, archery on youtube is a very controversial topic

@@evanhb49 it's just one of those things that people are arguing about without listening to the actual arguments. The Ranch Fairy has a Mechanical/Aerospace Engineering background and explains in great detail the reasoning behind why a heavy arrow setup with a high FOC % is what he suggests *most* whitetail hunters use. He goes on to talk about how that wobble mid flight is energy being lost and how the arrowhead should be pulling the arrow, not the arrow pushing the arrowhead and the physics behind why that energy transfer distinction is so important. And it's not like the guy is just some engineering theorist. The dude has shot hundreds of animals, mostly hogs, putting these theories and principles to the test.

I agree with you about high FOC%. And high FOC normally means a heavy arrow but there’s a way around that. I’m shooting sirius orion 300’s, 134 grains of inserts, 125 grain head, 18.5% FOC, 430 grains total.

@@garrettyates3570 those arrows have an 8.04 gpi wieght, so that would mean you're shooting like a 20" arrow. Your total arrow weight is higher than that. Closer to 500gr total.

Facts are stubborn things!

YUP,. Practice, a LOT, do Penetration "Tests" with your Arrows and Use, a BALANCED Arrow ( Some,.. FOC ) that, "Flies" Well with,.. a very SHARP B-H !

Amen...

True but in the event the animal moves or you accidentally miss your spot the heavy arrows will way overperform the twizzler flapper sticks. Heavy arrows have way more penetration!

@@kalebmcdaniel9147 that's why I said placement. In the event of a unintentional impact you should be shooting a single bevel, 20% FOC, 650g arrow, 4 2 inch straight fletcher. This comes straight from Dr.Ashby. But just shooting a heavy arrow alone does nothing. It needs to be tuned with proper parameters.

@@ethanalbany exactly, there's no point in just throwing any head on a heavy arrow. I don't know why he acts like people are only advocating for a heavy arrow. So much more is involved

I agree with your set up. When I started bow hunting later in life, I was shooting higher poundage with an Innerlock 3 blade and an arrow weighing in the lower 400's. If I did my job I was getting pass throughs no problem. As I aged, I had to drop poundage for accurate shots especially in the colder Northeast weather later in the season. As I did this I tried to compensate by reducing my arrow weight in an effort to keep my speed up. This ended up causing two problems the first being erratic arrow flight, so I went to mechanicals. Arrow flight became acceptable but penetration became an issue. No longer did I have pass throughs on broadside shots. I even when to a hybrid that the author of this video was shooting at that time. Still no pass through. I started follow the Ranch Fairy and settled on a 515 grain total weight arrow with good FOC and a cut on contact broadhead. I'm shooting 53lbs with a 29" arrow and the difference is dramatic. I no longer have a 50 yard pin on my set up but I never used it anyway. It was an extra if I needed a follow up shot. My arrows now sink much further into the target and I get pass throughs on deer. I advise everyone to do their own research as you can buy a couple heavier arrows and borrow a cut on contact head from a friend and conduct your own research during the summer. Remember to keep your FOC up and try a 4 fletch if needed. Nock tuning helps also.

@@charliebelle6693 I like your style. I shoot 30" draw at 70lbs and get away with a little bit more weight than you on the front (560 grain arrow). My bow is soooo quiet and shoots like butter. I ll never shoot at deer past 40 yards too. Deer hardly flinch when I hit them. Arrow whistles right through them and they have no idea what happened

i started late in life as well, in the 90's with a very cheap Fred bear bass pro specials. maybe spent 250 on it. it was to see if I liked it. Well after handful of yrs and killing many deer in the Allegany mountains with a stand 15yrds from a dbl man stand, i started testing ADC ( arrow drop compensation) with a good range finder and quality foam target. 20 to 25 yds. was pretty significant drop. after 30 it just was too much for me to feel ethical about it. Used all kinds of arrows carbon fiber, steel, aluminum, wrapped you name it.. SO i feel in love with bow hunting and upgraded to a then 2008 top of the line Bowtech. I stay with same grain tips on all arrows(125 filed and mechanical which i have never had an issue with killing with those) set a new foam target at 25 yds. and instead of the drop i was judging pentation incase of deer movement after release. The Fred bear bow sounded like a truck door being slammed.. lol. the Bowtech is silent almost. So long story short, the Eason 340 FMJ 5mm by far had massively more pentation. To the point of i could not practice at 20 yds. or i had pass thru and the cost well that hurts when they are gone. So when i backed up to max about 45 yds. i felt comfortable with to make ethical shot and feel very confident upon release. 50 i was accurate but not confident enough even after spending 1 hour a day starting in June shooting 100 arrows a day, 30 yrd in back yard and would get 10 out of 10 damn all bullseye. . So i believe what Jeff said about knowing your equipment, the limitations, YOUR limitations (pride removed from that big balls contest kind of thing) and do multiple weeks of testing on many different set ups with arrow tips and weights and even construction of them. Bow set at 68lbs I am pretty sure. Those thin FMJ arrows really penitrate deeply (that's what she said} sorry had to throw that in, for me it makes a difference. I dont take frontal shots or hard quartering because of tracking and ethical reasons for my taste. I say shoot lots like many have said and you will find what you like.

I really like the Magnus stingers 2 bladed heads. They are made by a great company. They tune and fly great. They fly quietly and have awesome penetration. They are durable and affordable. I am going to try the Magnus stinger killer bee this year and see if I like them as well as the stingers. One of the best perks to shooting a deer with the Mag stingers is that a lot of the time, the deer doesn't realize it was shoot and doesn't run off. They just stand around for a bit then fall over.

@@charliebelle6693 Great news Chsrlie. I'm 56 & I have a 30" draw & shoot a nice Bow @ 64 lbs. However I've noticed over the last 10 years or so that killing deer wasn't hard. The hard part was recovering them. I remembered back in the early 90's when my 1st five deer were all passthroughs & the combined tracking of those 5 deer was 90 yards. What changed the most was the amount of deer & the proximity to people those deer were. We have some very thick cover & not many hunters. I needed to find a system like the one u described. It started about 5 years ago with a Victory VAP TKO around 515 grains. Now I have an upgraded 3 blade head on a 250 spine Blackeagle X-Impact. About 22% FOC & a weight of 535. It's more of a missile system rather than an arrow & broadhead. Incredible accuracy & durability so u get a quick-kill & then u pull it out of ground to shoot again & again. Glad to hear things r going better for u sir.

Unfortunately KE os only a small part of what creates a pass thru...and a good arrow set up. Otherwise you should be shooting a 1500 grain arrow 😉

Exact same arrow I shoot . Same exact weight 450. …281/4 dl/70# on both my Xpedition’s. Shooting 285-290 depending on chrono. That arrow is tough!!!!

Agreed. Like that famous KZfaq couple in Iowa. Just can’t watch em anymore.

Just all depends on the poundage of your bow.

This is the way. Start heavy and work your way down to what shoots best for your bow.

Very cool experience Justin!!

Jeff makes a great point on heavy arrows and being off a few yards can be detrimental to high low misses....had this experience last year with with an 8 point that had the high ground on me so i couldnt range him as he was coming straight at me. Had certain trees pre ranged and i estimated him at 30 yards and my arrow sailed high right over his back when he ducked slightly. He was closer to 25 yards and this was with a 560 grain arrow. When i shot my 400 grain arrows all three pins covered a deers vitals at 20 yards. So even if i was off a yard or two it was money.

@@KTMsoldier1988 EZV sight is great for this (and heavier arrows) because it ranges for you. It’s not for everyone and takes some getting used to. I switched to it 2 years ago and I’ll never go back

@@Smithwise i have the EZV sight and i ruined 3 arrows miss judging. Cant afford to be throwing $25 arrows in the trash just practicing. I was decent with it to 30 yards but beyond that my high low misses got too extreme. I practice with a pin sight to 90 yards with 4 inch groups.

Not if you reduce your poundage. Its about balancing your whole setup. But if you do go light, then ofcourse that means you will have to get closer shots

True but in the event the animal moves or you accidentally miss your spot the heavy arrows will way overperform the twizzler flapper sticks. Heavy arrows have way more penetration!

@@kalebmcdaniel9147 Blah blah blah. 😎

I've never had one not open and I've been shooting rage for like 15 years now since they came out with their 3 blade. Been shooting the chisel tip since those dropped. I've bent blades never broken tho. And thats with blowing through both shoulders on a bad shot because it was at 10 yards and lost where I was on the deer. I'm not saying that it never happens but that hasn't been my experience. I mean till this year I've been shooting a chill r at 70# since it dropped. And my arrows weigh about 385gr. And yes my processor will verify the double shoulder shot.

I never had one not open , They have 2 types of collars , One for bows and one for crossbow , My son had issues with tri pans, I use chisel tips or Hyperdermic ,

My son also had real bad issues with grim reapers , One or both sides would open mid flight , Those don't use collars

I've seen video of Waddell shooting an expandable and they bounced off a rib on a perfect shot. The seek one guys also had that happen to them with rage. You want to talk ethics, pretty unethical to me to shoot something that takes shot placement out of the equation if it can bounce off ribs.

@@ep3389 been shooting them for well over 10 years 3 deer a year average and never had a problem

Everything is flat out to 30 yards. Unless you’re shooting 40-60 yards, yeah gotta go light

That's my opening day 😁

@@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751 Yes! Mine too 👍 was just thinking of that wind from the north. 🤔

Me too!

Wisconsin opener today. Western Wisconsin here

Thank you very much! Decades proven 😊👍

Yep. I’ll never go back from single bevel.

Yeah I've seen the performance difference on a single bevel compared to a mechanical is just honestly incomparable. There's also, in my opinion, a lot that people are going to say from just how long they've been doing things. Some people don't like changing it all so they're going to stick with what they've been doing and just swear by it as if the idea of them changing from it is some sort of representation of them not being good enough personally because that's what they chose. It's really weird but I find some of these arguments that you hear, like what's been said on the video, like shot placement being necessary is a bit of a red herring. You can kill a deer with a 22 with proper shop placement and people still use larger caliber rifle rounds. Also when I hear the argument that you don't need that much weight to kill a deer it's a little reminiscent of hearing people tell me I don't need 30 rounds in my magazine for self-defense. I'm not saying anyone here is of course anti-gun but it bears the same fallacy, overkill is a funny word. Also the trajectory is still weird to me too. I use the ezv bow sight which doesn't move like sliders and I'm able to hit out to 60 yards with my arrow setup at 620 grains. I could make it lighter but I like that weight of a broadhead and that extra weight up front. I also don't think the trajectory matters much when you're shooting at deer in an open AG field or food plot. There's usually not much in the way of the arrow to worry about it hitting anything so having to change your angle to shoot doesn't matter to me. I know everybody's different and I'm really not bad-mouthing or trashing lighter setups. I'd just rather be able to have a higher chance of the weight compensating for something going wrong during that shot in case my shop placement or everything else isn't perfect. If something wrong happens with my shot I think the heavier one would do much better in that situation than a lighter one, but more so cut on contact broadheads rather than mechanicals.

What about the quartering too shot at 10 yards he put on an elk and never found it.

Unfortunately a shoulder shot is only ethical with a firearm...

@@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751 I have been culling deer in urban areas for close to 20 years. I am positive I have killed way more deer than you ever will in your life with a variety of weapons. When using archery equipment in highly populated areas, I use a 815 grain arrow with a 300 grain broadhead out of a 75 lbs bow because 1) my shots are always 35 and in 2) I purposely want to shoot and break the shoulder so they can not run into a busy parking lot or someone's front yard and 3) I want 100% pass throughs every time so if they happen to make it to a parking lot or a yard, Bambi does not have an arrow stuck in them. You say it is unethical, but I do not think you have ever actually tried hunting for whitetail with a heavy (700 +) high FOC arrow have you? In which case, you have no frame of reference. I have used light arrows in the past and I know what works. Heavy arrows for the win.

@@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751 I am in agreement with Michael on this one. Shoulder shots are totally ethical with the right bow and arrow set up. Also, I still have my old camo hunters 2317's and they are 29" and with a 100 grain head they only weigh 525. So I am calling BS on your 600 to 650 grain statement that starts around the 2:40 mark. I am going to bet you have never shot arrow over 650 grains. You should do a 650 + high FOC build just to take a quartering towards shot with that shoulder in the way of the heart and see what happens. You might end up eating crow.

Those maxima reds are great arrows. They are some of the most accurate and consistent shafts made.

@@halfstep67 I concur they are excellent arrows. They’re like the Hornady of arrows

You like Chinese made arrows.

@@Life-of-Bluegrass_Music Carbon Express arrows are made in Korea, not China. Carbon Express is the largest carbon arrows manufacturer in the world. I have a Spot-Hogg hooter shooter and have tested a lot of different arrows. The Carbon Express Maxima reds are some of the most consistent and accurate carbon arrows made. They are very close to Easton A/C/C arrows accuracy and consistency. You would probably be shocked to know what archery products you think are made in the USA are actually made in China. I have an extensive list of companies that once was USA companies that have sold out to large outdoor groups and their manufacturing has been moved to China.

I've found the same. But a person's draw length alone adds weight to that setup. I have a 30" draw so somebody with a 27" draw will be shooting probably about 40 to 50 grains lighter. Like Jeff said the bows r much more efficient. I've found shooting 3D targets from a 🌳 with my current setup @ 64 lbs that my field points r hanging out the backside on every single shot. I practice @ different angles & such is the case. The most important thing is to tune your arrow to the bow & if u can shoot 50 arrows @ a line like a string hanging down over the vitals on a target. That u r getting great arrow flight w/o arrows going to the left or right is the same goal that a good golfer strives for. Now u need to do that up in a 🌳 w/o giving away your position to an animal. If that animal reacts to your presence then problems will follow. So many r trying to avoid that shoulder area & r shooting too close to the middle of a deer. Others r simply taking the quartering away shot for granted. If the hardest part of the animal is after your arrow has lost energy trying to go through the animal then the likelihood that u will get a passthrough can't be taken for granted. It all comes down to experience & focusing more on where your arrow exits rather than just the point of impact.

@@josephtreadlightly5686 I agree with your statement. I also believe that too many people are trying to overcomplicate the whole heavy / light arrow issue. Any bow made today, or over the last few decades, are fine for deer. So are the arrows, provided, as you stated, that they are tuned to the bow. All of them and any of the broadheads, will work fine. We can't forget that Indians killed them with a stick and string for thousands of years. Their arrows were tipped with stones. Haha.

@@MollyDogg1234 only difference is that property lines have made this difficult for us where many years ago it wasn't an issue. I lost a buck like 7 years ago opening morning of gun season. I made a great shot on camera & the arrow kept going & I never found it. The 🦌 was so hurt he couldn't do anything but stumble. But he went 50 yards & dropped on the property line. The son of a clown that never shot @ anything w/o putting 5 shots into it put 1 slug into it. His father went over to him while I climbed down the 🌳 & went home. They never knew I was there but minutes after that I was talking to the father @ their place. He told me his son got a deer & later after I showed him the video he admitted that his son took a buck. They moved that year about 10 miles away. But for 15 years they wrecked many deer seasons by surrounding deer in a bedding area & never firing a shot. That swamp used to be my grandfathers old cattle Tamarac swamp. I had to change since every area I hunt is the same. U can put a deer down quickly w/o spine shooting it but u have to be close & wait for the perfect angle. Not recommended for those who just r trying to draw blood or slow an animal down. 🤔

Shooting a manufactured target is no good for penetration testing. The foam is designed to stop an arrow no matter the weight. There will be very little difference in penetration. The friction coefficient is designed to stop them all. That’s the only reason anybody buys a target. Animals are much different. That’s why an arrow stops 3” into a target and can zip right through an animal. A slight difference in foam, even a quarter inch, will make a HUGE difference through skin, meat, and bone.

@@ethanwigley6185 you're probably correct. I just think the whole heavy / light arrow topic, as well as what kind of bow, ECT, to use, is overrated. Indians done it with a stick and string with stones for points. As long as we get close enough to our critter, and are fairly accurate, just about any setup is probably just fine

The funny thing is...that is NOT always true that heavy will always out penetrate light 😉

Dude the light arrow will fly faster than the heavier arrow, the kinetic energy is the same. The energy comes from the bow... not sure why this is so hard to understand?

@@brocklane950 Think of a freight train travelling at 40 mph vs a corolla travelling at 60mph. What would you rather be hit by?

The real comparison would be would you rather be hit by a freight train traveling 1 mph or a corolla traveling 80 mph. The energy required to move a Corolla 80 mph is the same to move a freight train 1 mph.

Yes, the lighter arrow has more kinetic energy at launch but things are different at point of impact. The problem is that this energy degrades much more quickly over distance with the lighter arrow, not to mention as it is contacting the animal. The lighter arrow hits the object at higher velocity, thus will have exponentially more resistance at the point of contact. MOMENTUM, when it is derived from more mass is what is going to drive an arrow through an animal.

Deer jump the string due to the sound of the arrow coming at them. Not the sound of the bow.

@@pik2490 man idk about that. I guess it's impossible for us to know. But I don't thibk it's them hearing the arrow. The bow going off is way way louder then arrow flying. Either way they are fast and its kinda mind blowing.

@@marijuonko7092 do some googling. Get back to me on that one.

My old 400 grain setup had all 3 of my pins covering the vitals of a deer at 20 yards....now that i have gone to a 560 grain setup high low misses are much more common if you are off a few yards and i have experienced this first hand.

@@pik2490 just because Google says something doesn't mean it's true. It don't matter. There's no possible way to even tell what causes them to duck. We can't ask them. So either of us actually know. All speculation anyway

So true D! Well, we didn't have a lot of choices back then either! That setup I talked about was in 1992 😊 Killed a nice bear with it!

Unfortunately heavy arrows are a huge fad...and lead to a lot of wounded game due to poor duped souls thinking their heavy arrows can break thru bone. Also due to a huge loss in trajectory and guestimation errors. Do some research yourself...check out Joel Maxfield's research on Facebook and other smart, highly seasoned bowhunters. You will change your tune if you do some research and keep an open mind...

So true D!

That's exactly right...

You should check out Joel Macfield who is a real arrow and bow engineer and someone who has shot just about every animal you can with a bow, on the planet. You will find in reality the high FOC is just a fad 😉 Unfortunately...sounds good on paper tho! You do find tho that the hunters without decades of experience latch onto the heavy arrow fad tho. That says a lot. 😊

@@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751 You should watch this, or his shorter summary video. He has a few others that are absolutely worth the watch. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/sJpkmNKAl9LSZnU.html Additionally, FOC plays a huge role with the stability of the arrow as you change the center of pressure. You can use lower profile fletching and larger cutting diameter broadheads if you have a higher FOC. Shoot a bare shaft with high FOC followed by one with low FOC, but of the same weight and diameter (hard to do, but I've done it) and you'll notice that the higher FOC arrow will stabilize more than the lower FOC arrow. Above a certain point, higher FOC has diminishing returns, but you'll never have worse stability by adding FOC. However you can have worse stability by lowering FOC. Secondly, there's no such thing as a perfect material. Even the highest modulus carbon absorbs some energy instead of perfectly transferring it. There's no magic bullet or perfect harmonics that will be more effective at reducing lost energy than just having a lower oscillating mass. The idea of the mass of the shaft contributing to the penetration of the arrow works only when the resistance met is below a given threshold. With soft targets (well placed shot between ribs, bag or foam targets, etc) FOC has zero effect on penetration, positive or negative. The more sudden the acceleration and more significant the resistance (tougher bone) the more FOC helps. Even if you bring Joel himself into this discussion, he'll eventually agree that any idea can work if it is a part of a comprehensive solution. If you have a low FOC arrow, it will still fly well if you put bigger fletching on the back and move your CoP. If you have a lightweight arrow, it'll work just fine if you hit a perfect shot or put enough KE behind it. However, when things go wrong it is the duty of the ethical hunter to stack everything possible in their favor. If you control all other factors, a higher FOC arrow will have the same or better penetration than an identical arrow with lower FOC. A heavier arrow will have the same or better penetration than an identical but lighter arrow. The same FOC, weight, and speed but with a more streamlined design with penetrate deeper. The list goes on. Do you need to hit the "magic" 650gr? Not at all. But if you never shoot beyond 30 yards and you are already pulling 70#, you lose absolutely nothing. It's all about the context of who you are and how you hunt. There's nothing wrong with most setups that actually work, but that is no excuse for refusing to optimize or improve. Just because it works doesn't mean it can't be better.

@@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751 Oh Joel Maxfield. His arrow study basically just proved that foam does exactly what it was designed to do. That's why NASA uses foam to stop meteorites from destroying things instead of steel plates. There's interesting interactions between materials in friction and compression when you scale the energy logarithmically. Different things happen and different forces take effect at different speeds. Different foams have some variations of their properties that enhance or detract from their resistance. Memory foam sucks at stopping arrows compared to EPS. Basically just nerd talk over foam.

You didnt explain yourself on that first step. If you go heavy on the front of the arrow, that means you might have to get closer shots. It all depends on shooting distance and what poundage youre using. If its a heavy poundage and shooting between 20 to 40 yards then yes, youre right. But with a 40 pound bow you have to shoot at 20 to 25 yards to get good arrow placement with a heavy front

@@Cheaps928 The ranges are based on overall arrow weight, not necessarily point weight. For a fixed arrow weight, higher FOC will perform better. For low poundage bows, they don't have a lot of wiggle room, so it's more important for them and not less. Even if you want a lighter, faster arrow you should still prioritize higher FOC. FOC doesn't always mean 300 grains of point weight. Usually it means a lighter GPI shaft for the same spine.

You are very welcome Alex!