Boy does this video bring back memories.... High school parking lot filled with SS Chevelle’s, Camero’s, GTO’s, Mustangs, various Mopars, just to name a few....

A retired master mechanic I know had built a DZ302 back in the day and put it in a base model '72 Nova with a 4-speed and a 3.08 rear-end. He said it was slow off the line, but he'd usually pass people halfway down the 1/4 mile and win. He said that car worked best on the highway where he had enough top-end to leave Corvettes in the dust. Oddly enough, he got most of his speeding tickets in town because the speed limit was 25 mph and the car couldn't maintain 25 mph in 1st gear without bucking.

I own a 1970 Mustang Boss 302 since May of 1970 and broke a piston skirt on 2 of the original Fomoco pistons. Had Arbor Garage in Omaha, NE. repair my engine installing new TRW High Domed 13.5-1 pistons and doing a .030 over bore on the cylinder walls due to the damage of the broken piston skirts. They dyno'd it at 608 H.P. and with a Holley 1050 Dominator Carb, it ran a 10.33. Keeping with NHRA rules, I ran it in "B" Stock and put on my original Holley 780 carb, it ran a 10.88. For a stock engine, this is one of the fastest Boss 302's I've ever rode in or seen. The photo to the left is my car. Race 'em if you got 'em racers!

I owned both a 1969 Z28 and a 1970 Boss 302. To me, the Z28 had the toughest motor, and the Boss 302 had some problems with piston skirts cracking. I also prefer the rear sump of the Z28 to the front sump of the Boss 302. The engineering of the body and suspension of the Boss 302 I thought was superior to the Z28. These are just my observations. Ken

Thats the reason behind Bob Glidden kickin ass in a 351 Cleveland! Those high flowing heads!

It's so nice and refreshing to see someone who loves all kinds of engines. I came here for the awesome shootout between really close sbc and sbf because I understand and appreciate both, and at the end you mentioned the B16 honda cylinder head flow as an example. I just today put together my forged CSS b18c1 bottom end with b16a3 top end turbo engine in my del sol so as an enthusiast of all kinds of stuff I appreciate what you're doing here. Keep up the awesome videos

I'm a huge FORD fan and particularly Clevelands or Clevors. Down her in Australia we didn't have any Windsor's past 1969. We only had 302 and 351 Clevo's. My next engine build will be a 4.125 bore 351 Windsor with CHI 3V Alloy clevo heads. Only thing stopping me atm is a car to put it in. Lovin this stuff thanks Richard.

My dad had a 70 Boss 302. He had 4 Boss motors setting on the floor. 2 of them were from Holman and Moody. He and his twin brother would go up there often and buy stuff they used on the track that didn't work for them in sustained RPM racing but would work very well in drag racing. The Boss had just 15k miles on it. Most were put on it 1/8th mile at a time. It ran a 7.74 in the 1/8th the early 80s with full interior and nothing removed. It was a stock car except the slicks and some homemade ladder bars. No one knew they were going to be worth what they are now so it was a street race car most of it's life. My uncle bought the car new and my dad bought it from him in 1972 when he got back from Vietnam. He had a solid roller cam motor in it once and it would turn 10k. I dont know how it stayed together at that RPM. I guess Jack Biggerstaff and Pat Pendleton at Carolina Crankshaft had the balance spot on. It had 427 FE with Holman and Moody stuff swapped in it for the longest time. It ran a 7.07 with it with the same suspension setup. Sadly he got hooked on pills about 5 years for he died and sold the car for $68k and sold the rest of the Boss motors and all the spare parts for another $25k. I worked on that car with him my entire life and was repeatedly promised it when he passed. Then he up and sold it for dope money. I would have paid him for the car but my wife had just had our second child and I was still recovering from the doctor bills from that. It's all I wanted in his will but the power of drugs proved to be to strong. My cousin has the car now and told me he would sell it back to me for what he paid but I don't know if my heart is into paying for something that I was promised my entire life.

Next up. Chevy L-88 427 versus Ford 427 🤞

Excellent video. No excuses or blaming or finger pointing, just the truth. Both cars are something we will never see again in that form.

LOVE this ole school stuff!... yeah yeah, I know your turbo and LS videos have great contents. But, like the Pontiac stuff, THIS is the stuff I DIG. As I mentioned in previous comments, I ran the 327 fuelly engine for years on the drag strip.. always the underdog, and struggled to keep up with everyone's big inch engines, but everyone still appreciated it. For whatever reason I don't see enough modern information about these old setups. Maybe everyone writes them off as too Antiquated to care about. But YOU ARE the man Richard. Thx

In 1979 I had 69 Z28 with the DZ 302 4speed and 410 gears. It was fast. I never raced a Boss 302 but I bet it would have been good. Keep up the great content. ✌

Good work!!! Thanks!!! Let us know how else we can support you and keep this great stuff coming!

Despite being a Ford guy and the comments about its superiority here, these engines are more or less the same in terms of power. They’re almost in lockstep with each other in this graph outside of the extreme high RPM range one should rarely, if ever, live in. I do see some divergence on the low end, and would appreciate seeing the curves from 800 - 3000 RPM, which is where street engines spend 75% of their time. In the end, I’m impressed by both the Boss and DZ 302 motors, and didn’t expect them to be as similar as they are

I have to admit I'm a die-hard Chevy man but I knew in my heart the Chevy small-block lacked in the cylinder head Department show enough you showed us that is true my hat's off to you Richard!

I have wanted this for so long. Thank you richard!

This is what we're talking about. Good job. I'm still pushing a small big block shoot out.

Yeah man..that Trans Am series was epic.

Great video! You've resurrected 50 years of contest....

Ford Engineers understood the relationship with the Boss heads and cam timing. If they had used a camshaft with a ton of duration, the overlap combined with the huge heads ports would have really killed the low-end torque for a tiny rise in peak power. Besides, they didn't need it. They knew NOBODY had a head like this at the time. This is back when they put BOSS on something, it really was the BOSS.

Can't believe how similar the two engines were all things considered

Son, you are gonna drive me to drinkin' If you don't stop driving that Hot...rod .... Lincoln.

Most interesting an educational thing I’ve watched in a long time. Thank you sir

I had a 70 Boss 302. It had been rebuilt with a hydraulic cam for driveability after piston skirt broke. It was a awesome motor.

Never bet against any flavor of Cleveland.

Man that was a surprise!!!! I love watching this Chanel!!!!

Richard, I love your videos. They are concise and you don’t have brand blindness. Thanks again.

Good job richard ! I have been reading your engine articles since i was a teen , Cool comparo , loved it !

I bow to both the Boss 302 and the '69 Z-28 302; never driven either but did get a ride in a '69 Z-28...………….Wow! (College days back when they were new.)

These two engines made Trans Am the best racing series back in the 60s 70s. Even better than NASCAR.

Great comparison video. Glad to see you guys are still using the Adjust-A-Jets i sent out to Steve years ago.

Thanks for the comparison. Really love the channel.

Finally, something empirical. Back in late 1971/early 1972, one of the major car magazines (e.g., Car Craft) took bone a stock '69 Z28 and '70 Boss 302 - '69 Boss wasn't available - and did a side-by-side comparison making incremental upgrades like timing, advancing the curve, headers, traction bars, rejetting, and maybe a couple of other things. These were all relatively cheap upgrades commonly made to muscle cars back then that did not involve opening the engine itself. Both cars started off with runs in the mid-to-high 14s stock and ended up in the high 12s, with the Boss being a little quicker. As I recall, no single upgrade made a huge difference by itself, but each actually solved issues that the cars had coming from the factory (e.g., axel hop, non-optimal timing, allowing the heads to breathe). I don't recall the axel ratios but it's probably safe to assume the Z28 had the standard 3:73 and the Boss a 3:91. I also can't recall the tires but I think it's also safe to say they were OEM type (e.g., no 50 series Mickey Thompson's). More than anything, I believe this shows how muscle cars coming from the showroom were easily and relative cheaply pushed into 1/4 times we see with today's Mustangs, Camaros, et al. I myself put a 800 Holley spreadbore on my '69 SS Chevelle along with a distributor kit. Made a decent difference but the biggest performance difference came from just finding a decent mechanic that knew how to tune the car. Amoco Super Premium didn't hurt either.

two of my favorite engines, awesome comparison!

Thatnks for the comparision. Its great info

My dad bought me a 69 Camaro out of a field in Clintwood, Va in 1992. Upon checking the engine we found a Chevy DZ302, I still have that engine in my garage on an engine stand. Love this video.

Now ya went and done did it! There's gonna be millions of people screaming "Chivy is the best, no, Ferd is the best"! This is the best content testing legendary muscle car engines. Can't wait for more!

Excellent analysis of the head flow....................................

Love your vids Richard ! Thank you !

Thanks Richard, I always learn something from your videos!

Shows why the 302 Cleveland in Australia was such a popular motor up to end of production 1982,

Your the man Richard!!

I had a ‘66 Mustang we rebuild the engine to K specs, then added an edelbrock performer intake. It ran pretty strong, but the shop teacher at school had a set of 351w heads he gave me. We milled the water ports and did a little matching and it made a huge difference in performance. Head flow is everything!

My uncle Sal has an original 69 DZ302 Z/28 4 speed, he bought it new in Niagara Falls Ontario Canada in the spring of 70 its a dark olive green with black stripes and interior, it has over 100,000 kilometers on it and never been apart.

Great comparison. The factories needed to keep the listed power under 300hp for insurance purposes. The SS Camaro had a higher premium than the 69 Z/28 I once owned from 70-74. In stock form, it had a lot of power. That car was fast. The air pump on it for emissions was horrible... it never seemed to work well. So, off it came. Power went up and so did fuel mileage. Eventually, I modified the car a tad. It had a 3.73:1 posi rear end, Lakewood bell housing, a 50lb flywheel with a clutch package that took a lot of experimenting. I used the Hurst Comp Plus shifter as well. Eventually, I found an air hood for it, had it painted to match (dusk blue with white stripes) and it looked great. It had 1 5/8 Hooker long tube headers, a mechanical advance distributor, Accel coil, and worked on the 780DP to provide the proper amount of fuel. That work on the Holley came after a major valve and head job. Everything from screw-in studs, double roller timing chain, to everything being ported & polished and CC'd the combustion chambers. They also used stronger springs, push rods, and a special angle on the valves. In the end, it was seeing over 410hp. I had also used Koni adjustable shocks on it and was planning on getting these over-the-counter parts: rear discs; stronger sway bars; and maybe the cross-ram dual 780 manifold. That car was fast and handled very well. Of course, it's gone now, as I sold it to return to school and never wanted another money pit. 🙂 It was great fun, though, and I learned a lot.

I've been 235mph in a 1980 Camaro with a destroked DZ... (large journal offset ground to small ).. 2.9" stroke 4.030 bore... ( 305 limit at Bville )... ( ran 250 Nitrous shot for 70 seconds ) Nothing sounds like a 302 at Full song for miles and miles... just freaking Music!!!

Since 1972 I have owned 9F02G212750 just after the 5/50 warranty ran out (at just over 50,000 miles in 1973) the nylon tooth cam timing gear stripped - two pistons disintegrated after hitting and bending valves - it broke the cam in two places and punched holes in the side of the block - basically the entire engine was destroyed - the unribbed piston skirts and nylon tooth timing gear where the weak spots of this engine - this began my education building engines which I’m still doing to this day

Learning so much from these videos.

This is a great video and even though I've had a couple of mustangs over the years , the 1969 Z28 is the Camaro I would love to own. You can really appreciate both of these engines and the cars they were designed for.

The fact that you went from competing domestic straight to the b16 was great. True tech and no stomping on one verses the other. I started with a 72 impala at 15 and into Toyota and Honda's by 19 and have expensive with most anything driven.... It's just nuts and bolts in different designs so whatever works, i make it work better

Awesome video, greatly informative... thanks for creating this vid!!

Yep my 302 heads back in the day were angle port with titanium valves and the ports were mostly devcon . They were the key to making hp . I bought them off a G gas car that a fellow sold the Monza and I would up with the heads and tunnel ram and the 660 carbs . I remember reading the info about the big port heads off a 302 Ford and how they were to big and I just never saw a down side from superior head flow . I remember Pete told me that he got 98 and 99 percent ring seal and when the motor got to 92 the motor got pulled down . Lot of times it was the valves . When I bought the heads he removed the hemi valve springs as I only spun it to 7800 as I used a dirt track bottom end

Awesome test! Would love to see the same engine comparisons tweaked out with more cam and heads.

I love that comparison. I am surprised the Ford didn't win by more but then the cam was considerably smaller.

PERFECT SYNOPSIS...TY...And mentioning Honda...icing on that cake man!!!

I just love to watch your vids. Nice to hear real world info, hands on. I will always love Cleveland heads, had a Falcon with 381C, man that car moved! And just kept going and going, very reliable... Thanks again

Love it, loved the old scca trans am series racing

I've been waiting a long time for this comparison. These engines came about when I was in my early 20's. Unfortunately, I lost friends to both of the engines when they underrated what these engines would do. The engines got quite a ways ahead of the chassis during that time frame. The "tunnel port" 427 heads had to be seen to be believed in those days. You could throw a cat down those storm drains. The port was actually too large and one of the problems with it was to keep up the velocity thru the ports. More ain't always better......I keep telling my wife that, but she's not convinced..... I loved the 30-30 Duntov cam.....tighten up the last for more lift/duration.....loosen it up and let it clatter for less of both....depended on the traction of the track that day.

Good content, keep em coming

There's a video on KZfaq showing the founder of the SAMTECH school(in Texas,if my memory serves me correctly)putting his stock DZ 302 on the dyno and it made 365 hp,proving those engines made about 360 in stock form.Great video,by the way.

I enjoyed this video, you got down to some of the technical part which is the "good stuff" for me. This was a no BS review of two racing engines from what I also believe to be the best racing series in modern automotive racing history. The Trans-Am Series was responsible for a lot of car sales and a lot of dreams for those who desired a car just like the one that they saw on race day or maybe in a magazine. Having been alive and a Trans-Am fan during that era of factory participation, it was difficult to find a source which allowed us to watch the races and newspaper coverage was scant if anything at all. A subscription to a weekly publication like the "National Speed Sport News" was about the best way to keep track of the events, a magazine sometimes was another source, but without the internet, the latest info was scarce. In short, racing coverage sucked back then. The final years of the intense, factory sponsorship got really exciting when Chrysler decided to join in and GM's Pontiac Division, (using Pontiac engines), also joined the fun. Then there was Roger Penske's championship winning Chevy team with driver Mark Donohue deciding to go with American Motors in 1970. Talk about a shock to the racing world! Mark Donohue would find enough victories driving the Javelin to create two manufacturers championships, (almost three, but for lacking of one point in 1970) for American Motors. Just imagine, damned fast cars from the manufacturer who used to build slow, clunky, old people's Ramblers. This was great stuff! There's so much interesting info that surrounds the early years of the American Trans-Am Series; the politics, the exciting racing and the innovation are all great stuff. Richard, many thanks for sharing what you have accomplished here. Even though this video is a year old, it still remains of great interest in regards to what was happening in automotive history 50 years ago. Keep up the good work, a subscription is well deserved.

The Boss 302 had bigger heads and valves than the Ford 428 and Ford 429, that were available around the same time. Which tells you that it wasn't built the way it was intended to run, in stock trim.

Why am I just now getting your channel recommendation? You should have a million subscribers.

May 26-2021, that was pretty damn good, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us

The Ford FE engine family is a family full of Icons. The 352,361 edsel , 390, 406, 427 top oiler, 427 side oiler , 427 cammer, 428 thunderjet, 428 police interceptor, 428 cobra jet and 428 super cobra jet were and still are excellent engines with a reputation for being excellent reiable performers. Their exspensive to purchase and build but well worth the money in my opinion

Really cool seeing this test. I had both of those motors back in the 70's. The 69 DZ 302 was ordered as a factory crate motor about 1971, cost like $600 if I remember. It was left stock but we balanced it and added a tunnel ram and two 600 Holleys. Had it in several cars, 60 Corvette, 70 Nova SS, 65 Chevelle. Ran great. Sure could wind high. It usually saw 8500 everytime I left the driveway. The Boss 302 was also stock, except for the Holley 850 DP I put on. It was in the factory 69 Mustang fastback it came in. Both good runners. Sure wish I still had them....lol Traded the DZ for a new L78 396 for my Nova. Sold the Mustang for like $1500. Hey thanks Richard, I watch all your videos. Especially the LS comparisons. Just built a new 408 with good flowing heads. Can't wait to see what triple digit turbo horsepower feels like compared to a DZ.....lol

Nice work. It's so hard to find people testing actual stock or very-near stock performance from that era. Regardless of which cars were superior from the factory, NHRA stock classes allow tons of mods the winner in any comparison you find on KZfaq is simply the one that is the most modified.

i had a 69z for 13 years with a dz 302 i built the hell out of and it was a drag race monster before the build it was factory it still ran real well

I remember reading this story Richard.

I must admit that a Ford 302 / 5.0 has a fantastic sound. I dunno what makes them sound so good but they definitely have a unique unmistakable sound

Great vid mate of two awesome little motors cheers Yogi 🤙🤙

Very good explanation of the differences.

Back in the day, it was reported that the Australian Cleveland 4v heads could flow more air, out of the box, than stock open chamber Big Block Chevy heads.

Wow that is a great comparison, the Boss 302 was fantastic but so was the 302 Chevy.

AWSOME VIDEO, CANT WAIT FOR THE L79 327 VIDEO....

Love the comparison test. We all know you're the man when it comes to dyno testing factory and aftermarket engine combo's that keep you glued to our phones! And I always learn something new or get an idea to try it out myself (on LS engines mostly). But always maintain a professional point of view without being biased. As soon as I heard in the video using a cheaper, non-factory carburetor, I knew you were going to dial in the carb vs throwing it on out of the box. But I'd love to see a follow up with you opening up the fuelie heads on the Chevy dz since the cam has more degrees and swap to 1.6 rocker arm. I think it'll close the HP gap at 6700 RPM's while still being a smaller rocker arm ratio and cylinder heads ( depending on how much grinding you do to the heads). We all know ( well most) that cam lift isn't everything. Again, awesome comparison Richard Holdener !!!

It would be interesting to see testing focused on the bottom end of the curve, especially one investigating how changes in duration of the valve opening event affects torque when all other cam specs are equal (i.e. a "factory spec" cam with duration/LSA of the factory hydraulic stick, but in solid roller with the most aggressive possible ramp profile). Maybe the torquey Ford 460 you showcased a while back? It would make a great starting point. Slam the valves open and closed as quickly as possible, but with the duration, lift, and LSA of a stock bumpstick. Will the quicker event opening equate to better low-rpm cylinder fill? Will it result in any changes in dynamic compression? Will it help? Will it hurt? Will it do nothing? Are the trade-offs in valve train stresses worth any potential gains? I ask because there are a lot of us out here who appreciate that throttle response and off-idle torque are more important than overall HP for everyday driveability and enjoyment. It's also a nod to those who might be building a motor for actual work use versus a weekend toy which will never see a trailer hitch. Keep up the good work. Vids are supremely interesting and the info is great.

The 1968 Tunnel Port 302 : Ford was using racing as a way to battle test this engine to check for weak points prior to making mass producing the engine ( as we know didn't happen ). Team Shelby and Team Bud Moore were not allowed to build or modify the 302TP. Even engine was shipped back to Ford to be examined. Shelby did build its own 302TP once and won the race, they were told to never do that agian.

I'm a Chevy guy but there really is no wrong answer here :) I'd want either one in my garage.

Excellent Video! Thank you.

The DZ 302 was running heads that were nearly 10 years old by that time. Bean counters wouldn't let them develop a new small block head as focus was placed on Big block hp wars by 69. A DZ 302 with good heads would have been scary.

it is nice to see you slaughtering the small port theory again and again. all my life the hot rod rags have been telling us to put smaller heads on our Clevelands, yet every chevy they build gets the bigger head they can find.

Well done. I love details, and data.

Best video yet, keep up the good work.

These two, along with the T/A Challenger/AAR 'cuda 340 are my all-time favorite muscle car engines, bar none. Sure, the big crazy big-blocks were the dragstrip kings, but these motors sounded SO GOOD, revved to the moon, and were light enough that the cars they were in could actually handle. Love them, if I had the money, I'd have one. It's mind-blowing that the factory 5.3l LS in my Colorados (a 4WD Z71 and a ZQ8) made right around those power levels, and considerably more in the mildly tuned condition they're in now.

Here's an idea modern Vs muscle. Build a small block 427 clevor and a 427 ls. Equal sizing solid roller cams, compression and intake. Stay with factory style casting heads no after market big dollar cnc stuff. Run with efi. This has been done before but the bias has always been to the ls with bigger Cam higher compression and after market heads

Nice work! Love ‘em all

Great comparison. The different engineering philosophies are crystal clear here. Chevy guy here but total respect for the Fords and Chryslers of the day. I am getting ready to revive my 67 327. The engine came in a 1968 Chevelle. It had a factory 4-speed. It was a stripped down car with no power options. It didn’t even have a console. Oddly, it had 462 2.02 heads on it. Unfortunately, I sent the engine to an engine builder many years ago and never knew what camshaft it had originally installed. It might have helped solve the puzzle. It did have a cast iron, square bore 4 barrel intake. Nothing really spelled L79.

Interesting video. Back in late 70 or 71 Hot Rod magazine took a stock 1970 Z28 and Boss 302 and tested both engines with several common modifications. They did identical modifications to both cars, headers, carb tweaks, traction bars, etc. Each time the Boss did just a little bit better than the Z28. You would never have known that from the action on the street. Plus there are tons of affordable parts for small block Chevys, but very few parts for Boss 302s. I had a 70 Boss 302. 0f02g125461

I had a 69 Z/28 and street raced many a 69 & 70 Boss 302. It was always a toss up, depending on gearing and tires. It was the same for other 69 Z/28s too. I remember back in the day Sports Car Graphic (Could've been R&T, or MT?) had a head to head test with both cars, and it was basically a dead heat. Still have the magazine someplace too.

Thank you again Richard for all your due diligence. MI by

Back in 1989 I was trying to build a street car on a college kid budget. I had a buddy working at a local speed shop so I used his discount to buy a Crane Blueprint DZ302 camshaft and dropped it in my 030 over 350 sbc shortblock, with a pair of old school hand ported double hump heads. These weren't no race heads, just 1.94 / 1.5 valved heads with a rookie port job. I topped it off with a 2x4 tunnel ram with 2-600 holley vacuum secondary carb's. This is all not matched parts but this car pulled like a mad man to about 1000 ft with a turbo 350 auto, 488 gears in a 1976 camaro. This video sure brought back memories of how I used to plan a build, budget first, never put much into parts matching. lol The same buddy from the speed shop had a old Chevy II with 307 shortblock, doublehump heads and DZ302 camshaft that was a screamer to about 7500 rpms daily and never had any issues with too many rev's. Funny how now we just spin the LS motors and don't worry about the pistons anymore either.

For some reason my dad knew Ford's made crazy horsepower.well back in the 50s my dad was a kid and he and his brothers experienced with Ford's and Chrysler's and Chevy's. But some reason Ford made him a believer when he bought his first 63 Ford galaxies 500 he knew exactly what to do to beat all the guys in town.the dealer didn't like it but he made history. Peace

great job, cool to see the little differences on them. Did you ever hear of Pontiac's effort with their Trans am engine? I read a story about how Herb Adams and a couple of other guys built a 303 cu. in. a destroked 400 block it was supposed to have made some great power.

Drove a factory flat topish piston, 71 model 2v Cleveland 4door Torino. Bone stock in the 80's, that thing ran hard! Made me a big Cleveland fan and still love them. Add compression, fuel and cam, those things will make you hate on all other older engine formats.

Back in the day, 1971, I knew these two guys that liked to race for money on Friday and Saturday nights but they had never raced each other. One had a Boss 302 and the other had a 427 Corvette. One Friday at work my friend with the Vet said him and the Boss guy were going to race just see who was really fastest. Well Monday morning my Ford buddy and I couldn’t wait to hear the out come . When our corvette friend came through the shop door we just said “well ?” He just hung his head .....I think he had few excuses too.

The Boss 302 used a 4 bolt main, screw-in freeze plug block. The intake valves in '69 were 2.23" and 2.19" in '70.

Both are great engines.

Back in the day around 1976 my brother had a DZ302 with a big holley double pumper carb sitting on a high rise edelbrock intake, it had corvette heads, corvette cam and crank, 12:1 popped up pistons, and a magneto distributor and a 221 Muncie trans hooked up to a shortened 12 bolt posi with 411 gears, huge Mickey Thompson tires in back with cragers, this drive train was in a 1971 single cab shortbed Datsun pick up. It was street legal and his daily driver right out of high school. It was cool looking and a real beast!!

Awesome video!!!