"They cannot resolve this in the traditional manner" Because in the traditional manner, they would have to recognize their errors and submit to their being corrected.

"If we don't change our position, our children will not come to our church" If you do change your position, they won't have any reason to come to church at all.

1:02:03 _They're saying, "Unless we take an affirming position, our children will not come to our church."_ What if the only way to get their kids to come to church was to deny Christ? Would it be worth having a church packed to the gills every single Sunday of people denying salvation by God's grace? What is the point of church at that point? May as well dissolve into secular society and cease to exist.

Basically, a vote is held until the progressive side gets what they want and then there is essentially no going back. That doesn't sound like a fair rulebook to me. This is why so many Methodist congregations have opted out while the denominational leadership chastises them for not waiting until another vote.

It's interesting that an organization called "all one body" is responsible for a schism within the body.

This is a fascinating story for someone who live in catholic Poland. I wish you well.

"Grand Rapids East is one of the most strategic classes in the CRC" Yes. As such, it was specifically selected to be under direct attack by those who wish to normalize sin. Paul, you need to find out who is doing this, if you want to save your church.

Paul one of the issues about growing CRC churches is that many people just cannot bridge the cultural gap between people of Dutch descent and say people of Irish, Scottish, German, or English descent. A similar ethos exists to some extent in Scottish Presbyterian churches. In 1985 I was seconded to a joint venture in Massecuites and after a year there I still had friends, good enough friends who heard that my wife was in hospital with fairly serious symptoms and they called the hospital. Whereas when I was seconded for 5 years to a programming development lab in San Jose and we attended a CRC church there, I ended up with no friends. They had a saying "If you ain't Dutch.." Even in our CRC home church in Ottawa there were only a few couples who could make the bridge. Some tried and failed and from our end we failed to connect although we tried. A negative factor was that we lived 8 blocks from Parliament and the hookers, pimps, pushers and street people were ubiquitous where we lived and some church members were afraid to even visit. (We are in the process of moving our membership to Community CRC in Kitchener.) I am attracted by the CRC confessions as compared to Westminster but in that respect, I probably am a rare bird. As best I found all the Presbyterian churches in our local area are affirming or promoting.

I jumped around a lot, seeing if you told them how PB4J is better than becoming affirming, and due to the part at about the 1-hour mark (props to you if you go there in the next 25 min), I have the following parable: The son wanted to take the inheritance and go feed the pigs, but the father just turned the land into a sty to keep the child close.

"It's no surprise why the one man, one woman, for life model of marriage is preferred" Looking at the metrics for child achievement in single-parent households, and the abuse rates for children in households with unrelated adults, there is a compelling rational case for it as well. The looming specter of demographic collapse is a great argument for returning to the cultural value of making it normative through the entire adult population.

I appreciate that you continue to make videos on this topic, thank you.

Paul, thank you so much for taking the time to put together such a thorough analysis on this current situation. This is so helpful! I'm soon to be ordained (in March) as a commissioned pastor at a CRC congregation in Wisconsin while I concurrently finish my MDiv.

Your old photos, and the middle part of this video, are giving me serious nostalgia feels, Dominee VanderKlay.

Thanks for the comentary. I feel that the deep dive into your denomination helps she'd light on the greater Christian situation in the west.

When I am with non-Christians I know I am a Christian, and when I am alone I know I am a Christian, and when worshipping with Christians I know I am a Christian, but when around this kind of legalistic infighting I feel an allergic reaction to ‘the Church.’ I wonder if Christ would flip over the tables in the rooms where this fighting is going on.

Thanks for the video Paul. It is always interesting to hear your take. we will see how Synod 2023 and the future plays out....

Great video! As a youth pastor in the CRC there are interesting points made throughout the video. I see in my own church the older generation wanting to keep their children and grandchildren around and in their mind they see being affirming as the answer. While students in our youth group are socially aware, I think the older generation misses the mark in the sense that they focus so hard on the issue. This goes for both sides of the argument. On the progressive side there is talk and talk and more talk. Our church walked through so many talking circles- some of which I led. However, at the end of the talking circles everyone just seemed tired and felt no further ahead than before. And none of our youth had any interest in attending these talks. On the conservative side there is lots of talk too, that seems to go no where. There becomes a hyper focus on the issue and a thought that if we talk about our beliefs enough, people will follow. In fact, a CRC pastor on the Messy Reformation podcast, boasted a 20 part on human sexuality. 20 part?! At the end of the day students seem to be done talking this topic to death. Can we see a move toward intergenerational and enfolding ministry? Let's address the loneliness that our students are living in. This is not to say to talk about hot button topics is bad, but it needs to be held in check and we need to be able to come together through a more simple worship and get to what is mentioned earlier in the video of serving the lost and less of a cute little place to worship.

What decade do you think that psychiatry replaced clergy in the blue church? How has that played into these splits on the current issues in the church’s today?

I was a member of the CRC until I moved to San Antonio in 1993. We were an example of conservative, Protestant Christianity. It's sad where they are now.

It's so fascinating how similar all the dynamics are between CRCNA and the LCMS (my church). The private school mill, the pastors all growing up together, the changing demographics and mission drift, immigrant identity crises and militant/accommodationist factions, etc I didn't know anything about the CRC until I found your channel but you're speaking our shared language in a way that I feel like I've always known about your church! Haha (I've lived my life in accommodationist-modernist leaning LCMS congregations so.. to the right of where your liberals are but very much tracking with your orientation.. hence my affinity to your takes I suppose -- culture war rhetoric gets repetitive, progressive rhetoric even more so).

This was excellent, Paul. So well done. The history alone was so worth the time. The wisdom was uncommon. Thank you.

I live in Haledon, NJ, next door to Eastern Christian school and up the street from Northside in Paterson. I am not of the reformed community but three of my kids have gone to EC, I’ve hosted international students attending EC and have been involved with Rev. Sheila Holmes’ Northside ministries for over 10 years. I have heard so often the story of Rev. VanderClay and what a wonderful man of God he was. This video came up as I often watch Jonathan Pageau. My iPhone pulled the small world together!

I was waiting for your reaction to ready for Harvest video about the splinting. I think you are probably right they part ways and whoever has the best church will win. For better or worse.

Hi Paul! Thanks for many of my thoughts to words. You are very careful and thoughtful on this topic. Also as Greg DeMey’s nephew I agree with your analysis (but I’m a little biased).

Oh wow, a Pastor from Brantford ON mentioned. Did my undergraduate Degree there. Good town that never really recovered from the First World War.

Mornin paul, 👍🤙

"There was no one available for the inclusivists' desired test case" Yes. That's because they have no real constituency.

"What should the inclusionists do?" Reject the sin they have been advocating and turn back to God's Word, obviously.

"The purpose was to share personal stories, not to debate the Bible" If that's the case, then that is not a Christian church.

There is a church for people who want to be affirmed in all of their sins (because once these sins are approved they will come back with another). But that isn’t the point. The point is to destroy the good.

Hi Paul, This is off topic but I just watched a movie on net flix "White Noise" Appears to be about the meaning crises from a secularist / atheist/ nihilist perspective.

I know this is not the place for my comment but I am going to leave it here anyway. MY grandparents and my parents are part of the generation that tithed, and funded churches and Christian schools. Now now, when my parents are aging and need help to fund their retirement and pay for a care home the church offers them NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. I am beyond annoyed and frustrated at that situation. The church in Canada is overlooking its founding members. It is disgusting!

37:40 It's okay Mr. Vanderklay, your hair hasn't gone, just migrated south😄.

Tried to post this earlier, but it didn't seem to work. Three quick thoughts on the video: First, thanks for your detailed and nuanced exploration of this issue as it faces the CRC. Serving on the committee that brought the recommendations regarding the Human Sexuality Report to Synod, it was fascinating (not always in an enjoyable way) to see how the dynamics you recognize in this video played out in spades. Second, I'm in the middle of reading Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword," and I can't help but see the parallels (at the very least in people's perceptions) between how this is playing out and Holland's depiction of the Alexandrian church (and culture) in light of the councils at Ephesus and Chalcedon regarding the nature of Christ. He writes: "[Chalcedon] pointedly refused to legitimise the Monophysite doctrines that had been so subtly honed in Alexandria. The result was a stand-off. As self-confident in the superiority of their own intellects as they had ever been, most dismissed Chalcedon's resolution with predictable contempt. (268)" Third, one of the most significant points I think you make in this video is that the CRC's old ways of evangelism and growth no longer work the way they used to. The question is: What will churches do? If we're going to see transformation in people's lives and growth in the church (though its not a guarantee) we must enter into the meaning crisis with the very young people that the likes of GRE wants to retain/reach through their affirming inclusivity. In my last few years serving in the university setting, I began to meet more and more students coming from Christian enclaves, as well as those one generation removed from any formal religious affiliation, groping around for coherence, meaning and purpose, and just last week here in South Africa, I met with two Iranian men who are seeking truth and hope after leaving Iran and in the process of exiting from Islam. The church has an incredible opportunity to enter into these spaces with such people--to listen, learn from, journey alongside, and speak into their lives--if we will have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Dr. Henry Abramson has a really great channel for Jewish history.

God created Man and Woman for each other. Period

Having been an independent missionary for many years in India and Africa I can tell all of you that 99 % percent of Christians in all of history, and in the world today, would be amazed that you are even having these debates. I can just see my friends in Africa shaking their heads and laughing at the abysmal collapse of western Christianity. If you are even talking about this you are finished as a denomination, in ten, or twenty years you will not exist anymore.

I couldn't help thinking of Niebuhr as I listened. I think I could make the case that the two factions you're discussing exemplify his analysis. As you've said, the culture war is, at the bottom, a Christian conflict. I also find it illuminating that the inclusive folks, when formulating a strategy, did so (from your description) without even considering prayer. To me that omission is telling. I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with their desire to change the CRCNA. It just caught my attention. I suppose prayer in that context would be too risky. Imagine the consternation if after commiting themselves to intense prayer for God's will to be done they had received the result they did.

"If you ask Grand Rapids East to choose against their kids, that's not going to happen" Even as their sons are castrated? Why in the world are these people sacrificing any hope of grandchildren? This is foolishness, through and through.

Moving forward with error is somehow better than being stuck. These sorts of errors are additive and don’t tend to be fixed because it is mean to do so.

Hey, marrying RCA is riskier? I grew up rural/small town WI (if you know Friesland-Randolph-Waupun area). Very conservative, noticed very little difference between RCA and CRC. That area was heavily Frisian with fairly recent immigration. Definitely close-knit, lot interrelated, like I had a 1st cousin mom's side married to 2nd cousin dad's side. Some of my relatives went RCA, some went CRC. Seems all the Frisians were related some level along the ancestry. (I'm going back to 1950s-60s. Lot has changed since then.)

Paul, I commend you for a fine sociological review the CRC, of which I am a life-time member. I thought it fair-minded in presenting the issues. But nowhere did I hear a call for unity--did I miss it? You make the a church split sound inevitable--and calloused at that. No sadness, no lament, no acknowledgement of the enormous hurt this will cause in hundreds of congregations, in thousands of friendships and families? Can we not yet read the Scriptures and earnestly consider and weigh the multitude of passages calling for unity? Ought we not be praying for unity to save God's people, our people, of the forthcoming pain? Would it not be wise to give it more time, to find ways to talk with each other, and by the way, I am on the traditional side. As I understand it, that is what synods are supposed to do. Are you not a delegate, a man of some stature, a gifted speaker--imagine if of all people you would show godly leadership pleading for unity in our beloved Christian Reformed Church? Ron Polinder

1:24:20 Does anyone know which videos these are who could kindly direct me to it?

To paraphrase O’Sullivan’s Law” if you’re not expressly one thing you will become something else over time. So the question is, what is the one thing or something else in a world where our Christian obligation to guard against sin is in direct conflict with our Christian obligation to love our neighbor? For some reason this makes me think about Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. But then that’s of little help unless I’m willing to redefine the terms. As Mr. Rogers might ask… can you say cognitive dissonance?

Can you "groveman" (sp?) against the doctrine of the trinity?

This shows one of the disadvantages of Democratic structures. catholic churches don't have this issue of Democratic votes regarding policy. they have other issues. I point this out because explicit deficits about democracy are very difficult for westerners to see, because they are swimming in democracy.

Paul! How can we contact you directly? Would LOVE to chat!

could u see the PCA and CRC coordinate a split and merge where a conservative conglomeration and a progressive conglomeration based off of these two denominations is coordinated? Idk the politics of how this would even happen but I know the roots and theology at these denomination to be quite parallel… Would love to know ur thoughts.

paul: let's not get too involved in the culture war. progressivism is too riddled with internal inconsistencies to be stable - it won't last. also paul: watch as i matter-of-factly document how the institutions built by generations of my family and closest friends are near collapse.

CRC is already Fracturing. I Live on Illinois Indiana Border. NewDenomination The Kingdom Network has a Bunch of Former CRC churches in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, California.

What would a split denomination do with Calvin University? Even though it is the official school of the denomination and it is fully owned by the denomination, it seems a majority of it's faculty and administration disdain the position Synod 2022 took. Also, at the official school of the denomination the number of incoming freshman with no church affiliation outnumbered the incoming freshman with any kind of Reformed or Presbyterian affiliation (per the Chimes article) - what kind of future can there be for Calvin? In short, I doubt that the conservative majority of the denomination would want anything to do with Calvin.

I don't mean this snarkily, but this video is a masterclass on why not to be a part of a denomination. Extra-ecclesiastical structures are so much weight they collapse under their own systems.

"Will the CRC exist in 50 years?" If the HSR hadn't passed, the CRC would have ceased to exist last year.

Why wasn't this a podcast?

there's a sitting president that the vatican won't do anything about.

37th

Paul, if you re going to use someone else' video or work, you should at least do him the courtesy of learning his name. It is Joshua....Next time, please show a bit a courtesy. Stephan

First 👸 👸 👸

And why can’t churches just say to gay couples that you don’t need to get married if you want to be together. Like why in the world are they even fighting to be married. Marriage needs to be a church thing not a legal thing. If you aren’t religious you have literally no reason to get married. Sure people will site economic things but those people are overlooking way more important factors and they are forgetting about divorce court

Ecclesia Semper Reformanda Est!

Why? It's protestant. Joking. Sort of...

😺I heard that CRC Canada 🇨🇦 wants to build a border wall, and get CRC USA 🇺🇸 to pay for it - just kidding 😹

Connective tissue is probably the most important part of a living organism as it makes "one body - many parts" a reality. It seems like the body of Christ is being dismembered from within by the two-part "goo gone" catalysts of rigid intolerance and blind affirmation. If we apply the same false binary approach to any other sin it just looks stupid and silly. No adulterers allowed in OR swingers night at the church. Shouldn't the church avoid both extremes?

Thanks for your analysis, although a bit long-winded. Also, show some respect for Donald Trump. You might not like him, but you should have the Christian charity to not make him the boggie man of all you do not like. He is not a verb. He is a man and deserved to be treated as such. Stephan

“GRA.VA.MEN and GRAVAMINA” today’s Word of the Day. I am thinking of joining your church to learn about organizational administration and governance! 😹 Fascinating stuff. 🐿

"Inclusivists are justifying their position with Biblical interpretation" Which are nonsense consisting entirely of motivated reasoning. Seriously, the arguments they raise are shamefully absurd, theologically speaking.