gaming became less about stealing your quarters and a couple of hours out of your afternoon and more about becoming an entire replacement life
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
yes this is exactly what the larger devs want. And these days they aren't even shy about it. Look at modern blizzard *shudder*
@rafaellima8310 ай бұрын
I still can't get used to the question "What game do you play?". What do you mean what game do I play? I can only play one game? And it seems a lot of people are like that. Dedicated to a single game. I play whatever I can get my hands on. And I still play that 1984 arcade game I used to play as a kid and it's still as fun for 20 minutes like it was back then.
@deepstrider10 ай бұрын
Yeah if arcade games are quarter munchers then modern games are time munchers.
@Daniel__Nobre10 ай бұрын
Games, specially mobile ones, have become casinos essentially. Think about it. The millions of children going around with access in their pockets/hands to thousands upon thousands of casinos. Or maybe it’s the other way around… thousands of casinos - with their huge teams of psychologists and statistics specialists - with free unconstrained access to millions of children.. And it’s so weird to me that official/governmental institutions don’t give a damn about the impact of this on children and the future.
@hisham_hm10 ай бұрын
I hate how so many modern games are just a sequence of tasks, either thinly veiled as "now-do-this now-do-that objectives", or explicitly down to the Whatever Simulator type games. I already have a job, I don't need more "tasks" in my life. I just want to have a bit of fun with video games every now and then.
@FFTHundoCommunity10 ай бұрын
Mark’s so hardcore he’s conducting an orchestra simultaneously while filming this video.
@perlichtman156210 ай бұрын
That made me smile. :) Honestly, I took conducting in college as a Music Theory/Composition major and I wish it were as easy as that.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Ha i had the fandoo stick in my hand when I was setting up the camera, and I thought it was kinda funny to wave it around while recording like some old cranky teacher.
@harmey10 ай бұрын
He's doing it to increase the video's density!
@suico77810 ай бұрын
Dude, this just made me realize something huge: In the past like 10 years I play new games hoarding cash/items/etc throughout the game anticipating it to pay off dividends in the later sections, but like 90% of the time I just beat the game with a bazillion OP unused items in my inv. I totally thought it was completely a *me* problem, but well...
@aziskgarion37810 ай бұрын
Because most games have a bad way to manage consumables. You either hoard them because they are too precious or you either never have a need for them. Games should force you to use consumables. What is the point of antidotes when you can just user your healer chick sidekick lovequest to do that for you? What's the point of that debuff bomb, when your snarky passive-aggressive edgelord emo deuteragonist has them in his arsenal of spells? Enemy susceptible to fire? Time to take out that Firebrand, that you had just killed seventy innocent pixies and gave their corpses to that random lone gay dwarf living at some random mountain edge, so that he can forge it for you? No, just let your great uncle uses his magical tome and summon a firestorm along with a fire elemental.
@Truth_Hurts_Bad10 ай бұрын
This does still apply to Silent Hill 4; save those bullets for the end. I know what you mean, though. Now I just use things more liberally, unless it's survival horror.
@dragons_red10 ай бұрын
Because the games are designed for the worst of players (normies).
@snil49 ай бұрын
Now you made me realize what my problem was with persona 5 and especially royal, it just gives you a whole bunch of tools that let you not play the game. For example there's an ability that lets you essentially skip every under leveled non-rare fights inside the dungeon while still giving you all the rewards, and there's a special shop that gives you exp/money/items multiplier for finding special collectables randomly scattered throughout the dungeon, which is why the only really hard part of the game is the first chapter. And if that wasn't enough the game let's you download a free dlc that gives you extra healing items from the start of the game, and if it wasn't stupid enough the newer ports of the game have this dlc preinstalled so if you wanted to check out the cool costumes that were paid in the ps4 version you essentially remove all difficulty from the only difficult part of the game.
@Puerco-Potter9 ай бұрын
You have to consider that not all players will do this, and many will skip all the extra content running from main quest to main quest, so they can't design with those items in mind or some players won't have a chance
@sladejosephwilson230010 ай бұрын
Arcade gaming is more fun and more convienent. Less bloat and more game play.
@AcceleratingUniverse10 ай бұрын
yeah especially as an adult when you don't have 8 hours of free time a day
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Absolutely!! I also think it s more engaging and artistic. Bold confident design, that's what I like :-)
@Tethloach110 ай бұрын
fun playing arcade: 90s to 2010s
@Puerco-Potter9 ай бұрын
I like games that I can immerse myself in, but I also like arcades, it doesn't have to be one or the other...
@Dailyfiver9 ай бұрын
I actually learned so much from this video and the comment section as an indie developer. I can lean into stuff like classic arcade styles that AAA studios can’t do.
@Hiromu65610 ай бұрын
Great video man. It's unfortunate that so many gamers have essentially been conditioned into thinking a game having roadblocks, stress or even a moment of frustration or confusion is an error on the developer's part. But at the same time many developers have also started to think this way, including indie developers. I also agree with your points on timers. Even generally easy to deal with "timers" like the heat system in Lost Planet get backlash. The timers in Dead Rising, Majora's Mask or even Crazy Taxi can be stressful, but that's the point. That's a factor of the game that you're meant to deal with as apart of the experience. I would love it if I could get more new games that forced me to play by its rules rather than feeling like every game is trying be accommodating at all times.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Exactly hiro! The timers are only stressful in the sense that gamers are just outright refusing to see what they accomplish in design and how useful they are. I think if we had a wider conversation about why timers are so strong for a lot (not all, but a lot) of game design, I think people would be more open minded and embrace them more. Man Ninja gaiden 2 with a timer would be awesome.
@MrElbowsmash10 ай бұрын
I used to think I hated timer mechanics, but then I thought back and realized some of my favorite games enforced strict timers. As it turns out, I was just taking it for granted. Nowawadays I think that they really should make a comeback.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Absolutely elbow! I was the same way until I noticed how the timer really prevented a lot of stale janky tactics like picking things off one by one ha
@anima9410 ай бұрын
I think I still hate timers outside of a post-game, but Majoras Mask is one of my favourite games and the timer really enhanced it
@mgshock9 ай бұрын
Even the RC plane missions in GTA San Andreas?
@Hillthugsta9 ай бұрын
Ah yes...Dead Rising
@petkofuchalski98098 күн бұрын
@@mgshock tbh, the RC helicopter mission in Vice City was waaay worse than the ones in SA, but oddly enough, that mission i also the most memorable.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
It was sad when Masahiro Sakurai made a video saying to get into the action straight away and there were so many comments disagreeing with him. Modern gamers and developers suck
@radio100jogosdeemacs210 ай бұрын
which video is this
@TheCyclicGamer10 ай бұрын
I share a similar sentiment. I don't mind a game having an intro, even if it's lengthy, as long as I can skip it and get straight into the game. Death Stranding is a great example, it has a lengthy intro that sets up it's characters, the world, and what it's about, but you can skip it all and get straight into the gameplay and making your first delivery, and bear in mind this game is from Hideo Kojima, the guy known for lengthy cutscenes. Final Fantasy XVI on the other hand is the exact opposite, it has the intro with Phoenix vs Ifrit, but it's such a mind-numbing intro because even though you are playing it, there's no stakes going on, it very may have been just a cutscene and it would've had the same effect, which is a philosophy of mine; If you can do it in a cutscene and still achieve the same effect, then do it in a cutscene. Even worse in XVI's case when you have go through it twice, and the first time is followed up by Clive walking about a mountainous area with three other guys looking for Shiva's dominant; No combat, no gameplay, nothing, just a forced walking section, and God do I hate those. Stranger of Paradise is what XVI should've been more like.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
@radio “just let them play” game planning
@masonasaro211823 күн бұрын
i believe they only disagreed because they saw an out of context quote and thought it was about world of (b)light. which is fair because WoL is the shittiest smash bros game mode in part because it lied about being a true adventure mode.
@blueshattrick9 ай бұрын
"Pac Man REALLY gets good after the 20th quarter!" - If Bethesda existed in 1982
@boghogSTG10 ай бұрын
I think a lot of people take arcade game design for granted when in reality it's a pretty specific style of design that was made possible by a collection of inter-dependent factors that are probably never going to happen again. It's more akin to local music scenes that give birth to influential movements that spread across the world rather than something that designers gravitate to naturally. If anything, games like Diablo, Cow Clicker (and its spinoffs) along with the rise of gacha and successful attempts at gamification (Duolingo, soc media) show that design trends in the opposite direction if left to its own devices - it trends towards progression systems, gambling-like systems, fostering a sense of ownership via sunk cost & other types of manipulative brain hacks. Fundamentally all games are just brain hacks, but with the arcades you had some natural limits of the designers' excesses - saving was uncommon so there was no clean way to create long term progression & ownership, the games earned money through difficulty so optimizing around flow state wasn't viable, and because the games were always competitive gambling had to be more explicit or else it harmed scoring. You can see that once these things loosened even arcade games started adding progression & ownership elements via stuff like the Initial D driver's license system, though ofc they still have to hold back due to a variety of factors. It's why arcade design has to be consciously & aggressively promoted because it *will* get lost over time. The only big exception to this are competitive multiplayer games, you can see that they keep elements like timers, remove exploits & make sure to eliminate cheese when designing levels. Because unlike singleplayer games, degenerate strats don't just affect the player who is playing, they affect everyone else's enjoyment too - so the practical necessity drives design.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
That's such a good observation bog. I never considered the regional aspect of how deeply connected arcade game design must be to a specific place and time in Japan, but it makes a lot of sense. So if you think about it, arcade games are like the anime of video games ha. Where they had the same boom time period and are currently in this terrible spiral downward. That would be a fun video to make, comparing anime and arcade games super directly like that ha. Also I think the clearest example of a successful progression system in arcades is actually Virtua Fighter 5's card system. I was watching a VF5 tournament on arcades and they were using the cards that they had held for about a decade at this point, and its INSANE how many matches these players had. So fighting game progression system of rank seems to have definitely worked in that case.
@PS1Fan199110 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUndergroundOne amazing anime (imo) that recently came out was Pluto. Granted, it is a big budget Astro Boy anime made by the legendary Naoki Urasawa who made Monster.
@todesziege9 ай бұрын
For a brief moment the planets aligned and shaped something beautiful.
@robsonlmfilho10 ай бұрын
I wish this was common sense among the gaming community. Despite being a very good opinion and a very coherent game design, not only the players but also the developers don't even know what an arcade/retro game is due to the generation difference, having already grown up in a post-PS2 era and already at the door of the era of DLCs and IAPs. They think that just because they use pixel art their game is instantly retro. It's even funny to think that while people endorse the soulsbourne formula, which is the only genre nowadays that fits the description of "a game that pushes its limits the entire game without seeming unfair", they despise the arcade formula, which is literally the concept of souls on steroids, simply because the "game is old". It is important to note, however, that this is also the result of the rise of eSports. Of course, single-player games remain very popular, but it is undeniable that nowadays climb for ranking in competitive games is usually what keeps players interested, as the desire to surpass another player is usually greater than the desire to surpass a machine.
@ChernobylComedyAndWings9 ай бұрын
Hi there, I make indie games. I've watched this 3 times now. I almost came to this conclusion over the past few months, by going down this rabbit hole. Asking myself why everything I played has felt devoid of meaning. But you really hit the nail on the head here. You reached the logical conclusion before I could figure it out myself, which was like a lightbulb going off in my head in a way. I'll be sharing this video everywhere I can, and I really hope this catches on.
@edoardopalmer23796 ай бұрын
Which games are you making?
@ChernobylComedyAndWings6 ай бұрын
@@edoardopalmer2379 Pong
@UshiMushi10 ай бұрын
Great topic. This whole video explains pretty succinctly why I started playing shmups a few years ago; I was tired of how painfully easy games had become. And I'm not even great myself, I would consider myself a low-mid level skilled player. But mainstream games normal modes offer 0 challenge. Rarely even their hard modes, and if they do, it's usually jank after thoughts. Then I redsicovered arcade games and have a hard time playing anything else. People look at my like I'm crazy like I'M the one wasting time because it doesn't have some GRAND (actually very shallow) rehashed epic sprinkled over 100 hours.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Yes exactly! And not only are mainstream games getting easier and easier, but they don't even care that much to do a proper hard mode anymore. They just sort of turn up a few values which makes barely any difference and call it a day. Where a proper hard mode has a lot more going on in it than just taking some extra damage.
@CanaldoZenny10 ай бұрын
You nailed everything. Sonic Superstars is genuinely an old school arcade-style platformer: it has an in-game timer, a proper scoring system; level design more reminiscent of the Mega Drive titles with little to no automation; and is not afraid of being difficult - Superstars will not hold your hand. And is not bloated: what you see is what you get. And what happened? It got destroyed by critics over Mario Wonder, a platformer that abandoned its arcade roots over modern game design. I've seen a lot of articles about how removing the in-game timer and scoring system in Mario Wonder was the best thing Nintendo has even done. For me it just removed all the depth of the game. Now it is just a matter of reaching the end of the level, but not how I reach the end.
@thonato.G10 ай бұрын
They removed the timer in Mario Wonder? wtf
@SpaceDuppy10 ай бұрын
That's just ridiculous Where is the challenge?
@tjlnintendo9 ай бұрын
@@SpaceDuppy The level design? Getting all the collectable? It’s not like timers were ever a challenge in past mario games. They give you a shit ton of time regardless
@tjlnintendo9 ай бұрын
Personally don’t have an issue with wonder removing the timer. Its levels are more about exploring and finding secrets and other collectibles. Sonic superstars’ issue is the jank + the horrid bosses. The bosses are slow and take forever. They aren’t even a challenge. They are just a long ass waiting game.
@TornaderX24 күн бұрын
@@tjlnintendoI'll double down by sayimg that while timers and limited lives are mechanics that can enhance difficulty, those can't be randomly put in a game for the sake of It. See Celeste, does It have a timer? No Does It have limited lives? No Does It require mastery of the game mechanics to experience all the game has to offers? Absolutely yes. Timers and limited lives are their places in which them shine, everywhere else are just archaic and easy way to make a game "difficult".
@asmith185410 ай бұрын
Good video as usual Mark. I feel the current softness of video games is partially because of the reasons you stated (companies making concessions to design in order to drive value to a wider audience), but I think another element is that video games have never recovered from Roger Ebert claiming they are not art. An entire generation of game development started chasing after the respect that film gets, leading to the drive towards AAA "Hollywood" games. The cinematic movie games that cater to as wide an audience as possible, culminating in The Last of Us. I love TLoU as much as anyone, but matching planks to holes and walking into ambushes clearly marked by the chest-high walls that serve as cover marked a regression in design. Part of From Software's current lead in the games industry is finding a nice middle ground of constantly engaging the player in an uphill climb through both reflexes and knowledge, while simultaneously giving the player pretty vistas and play archaeologist. The current trend of roguelike indies as the nu-arcade experience show that people WANT to pushed (or are gambling addicts without realizing it). Modern games putting parry into everything may be clumsy, but hopefully it's early growing pains of a new wave of games backed by game theory.
@tubbiele210 ай бұрын
To say VG are not an art form is ignorance. And I talk from a quite an academic perspective, may God forgive my prideful comment
@emptyorchestra10 ай бұрын
As much as I want to call Videogames "Art" I think it isn't just that simple. I talked about this with my teacher a lot and the thing we agreed on is that the Videogames are both Art and Craftsmanship. Some cater to Craftsmanship more and there is nothing bad about that.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
oh yes that's a great topic. Are video games art has absolutely impacted the entire industry and critical landscape around game design. Where game devs are so desperate to try to prove themselves as artistic by putting in all these bloated film elements at the expense of the gameplay. This is where we get the whole forced walking section cut scene thing ugh. The thing about boomers (and i should make this a dedicated video) and most philosophy of art type is that they simply incorrectly view the question of are games art in the first place. You'll notice everyone who talks about are games are discusses it from the premise that playing games is art. Playing a game is NOT art. That's actually really obvious. Is watching a movie or reading a book art? No. The art part of the medium (and this is so obvious) is Creating the game. The developer is the artist, not the player. The answer is so obvious its insane no one has pointed this out lol.
@MrDirkles10 ай бұрын
I don't even play modern games. I only come here so I don't have to break the habit.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Ha yes the arcade player support group, I dig it!
@SourClout10 ай бұрын
I think there is still good indie games that replicate the retro game formula if you consider those modern games.
@MrDirkles10 ай бұрын
@@SourClout I'm happy to try them but if I don't get my arse kicked within the first 2 minutes of gameplay I'm not interested😂.
@SourClout10 ай бұрын
@MrDirkles I feel it! I'm trying to find a nice hard game with mechanics I love like blasphemous
@Truth_Hurts_Bad10 ай бұрын
@@SourClout Blasphemous is fantastic, but it isn't very challenging, especially with the dash attack. Games like NetHack are extremely challenging, even as much as requiring spoilers to progress, and are very sandbox-like, allowing you a variety of ways to approach situations. Fight, flee, zap, dig, chug, engrave etc. etc. - those are the mack daddies of challenge.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
The reason games suck now is because people value the length of a game over quality. Lengthy game= good even if it’s mediocre and padded out. Short = bad even if it’s the most tightly crafted game.
@TheCyclicGamer10 ай бұрын
There's also the obsession with realism, not just in the graphical sense but also in the game design sense. I've noticed some game reviewers will criticize a game if it has elements that don't coincide with reality, even if it still makes sense from a game design perspective. I think it's safe to say that the game design perspective is more important than the realism perspective.
@sladejosephwilson230010 ай бұрын
Facts
@sladejosephwilson230010 ай бұрын
@@TheCyclicGamerAgreed
@HereticHydra10 ай бұрын
Yeah, everyone makes fun of you if you'd rather play a 1 hour game for thousands of hours over a boring ass chore-list designed Ubisoft or rpg game for thousands of hours. I know I'm not wrong, I've played Streets of Rage 2, RE4 og, Contra Hard Corps, etc. for thousands of hours and I'm still not bored! I tried playing that Metro Last Light & 2033 game but I got bored and just went back to Doom. I do like some long games if the combat systems are well designed like Divinity Original Sin 2 (They recently made Baldur's Gate 3) but they're like the only Rpg dev who truly understands how to make a turn based ruleset that's both hard, but fair through strategy & tactics rather than level grinding.
@HereticHydra10 ай бұрын
@@TheCyclicGamer Yup, a lot of Doom fans hate on Doom Eternal because Eternal is not realistic and way too cartoony. I'm here thinking, the other Doom games were realistic? WHAT? In Doom 2, your pet bunny gets murdered by demons but the modern fanbase acts as if Doom were a grimdark serious horror. The same thing happens with the Resident Evil franchise. The RE games after RE1 were originally John Woo inspired and you see this influence as early as RE2 but modern RE fans try to force the series to be a dark gritty realistic game, instead of a funny John Woo action game with zombies.
@juliusjohnson80468 ай бұрын
I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but I think some of these things are specific to certain games. Scores and timers are not really relevant to an RPG for example. Even adding a score and timer to specifically action games isn't going to automatically improve games. I agree that these sorts of things forced developers to make quality games, and there's definitely a major issue with padding for gameplay time, but there are many quality games that went against these gameplay philosophies and would be inferior if they stuck strictly to these things. It's about learning from the spirit of these conventions is what matters. You used Shovel Knight as a frequent example, but it is a great game that's fun and packed with content per second and doesn't need to rely on every strict convention of the arcade days to make it a fun and engaging game. Even if it's "easier" than those games, it still provides a strong challenge, especially for those who want to get all the in-game achievements. So yeah, I get what you're saying in this video, but I think the argument comes off as an indictment of basically every game that's come out since consoles became the primary medium, and don't think it's the real answer to the problem of modern video games.
@HereticHydra10 ай бұрын
When I was a kid in the 80s & 90s (I'm 40), gaming had a more socially competitive & sports-like atmosphere. Gamers were rough looking outcasts, gangsters, punks & goth types. It was a legit subculture. Most of us played games to "Conquer them". Which means 1cc since we were still playing in arcades. Modern gaming isn't about the game, it revolves around internet celeb online communities. I noticed that over half of modern communities don't even play the game, they just watch Lets Plays or twitch of popular nerds and they'll talk more about the damn king/queen nerd! Over the damn game! Modern gaming has been transformed into a Corporatized Nerd-chic which didn't exist when I was a kid. When I was a kid, damn near everything felt like a rebellion against the status quo from vidya gaems, comics & even attitude era wrestling. Modern culture, everybody conforms with the consensus, which includes how games are made. Which is why everything follows such a monoculture template of inoffensiveness for maximum corporate market value.
@eduardogallardo1138610 ай бұрын
Reminds me what Chris Crawford says about the industry as a Dragon, a dragon that I think its consuming itself and as a dragon cant born again like a Phoenix
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
yes exactly. The whole idea for modern game design now is to turn the games into a social experience, so that people can access them and use them in a mass media way. I think that style of game design has its place, but that place is not every game ever ha. It is a shame that games are not more seriously evaluated these days on the merits of fundamental design.
@Garuda44910 ай бұрын
I like the nerd chic description, so true
@trabuco910 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUndergroundWorse, they're social gambling experiences now.
@Daniel__Nobre10 ай бұрын
Really well put! Amazing comment!
@autex260910 ай бұрын
Great stuff. I've never heard anyone bring this up but I completely agree with you. I recently built a cabinet and I find myself going to it much more than my PS5. My PSA to my fellow arcade enthusiasts is this: To make arcade games fun at home is very simple. DO NOT give yourself infinite credits. When I'm done with work I give myself "50 cents" and play dodonpachi. It's insanely engaging that way. I'm sweating, yelling, laughing.. the whole gamut of emotions ha. That simply doesn't happen with modern games. Not even close.
@MrDirkles10 ай бұрын
Exactly this. Back in the day when you were spending your pocket money to play these games a quick game over was traumatic. I remember playing dragons lair at 30p a go in 1983 ( I only got £2 pocket money ) and I was shaking with nerves before I even started the game 😂
@autex260910 ай бұрын
@@MrDirkles haha. yeah man. Limited cash was a huge part of the fun strangely enough. Once I stopped hitting that credit button 50 times before starting a game, the arcade feeling came rushing back and it's special all over again.
@ManOnTheDune10 ай бұрын
Amen
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
oh yes great point! The continue systems of arcade games were meant to be really meaningful because the game is literally taking your money ha. But if you have access to a rom or port, that meaning gets stripped away. So you should try to yes, impose that sort of challenge on yourself. Or a good port or home console version *final vendetta* should limit credits to replicate that pressure. I remember the day I decided ok I'm going to beat metal slug in one credit was my journey into getting into arcade games and shmups :-)
@NIMPAK110 ай бұрын
I think there's still a place for more casual games, but we've been losing more and more of these important fundamentals due to this apparent dismissal of arcade games or anything that came before the modern day in general. Something gamers/developers need to remember is that we've been playing games thousands of years before video games were even invented. I often see people treat video games as this magical new thing completely separate from games and that the devs of old didn't quite understand this new invention and we've only understood it more as time passes. When in reality, a lot of these concepts are just as old, if not older, than the concept of language itself.
@boghogSTG10 ай бұрын
@@diydylana3151 Itagaki was on fire here : "I just want to say that people who really want to know about videogames should avail themselves to master a traditional game like Chess or Backgammon, find one and master it. In particular Backgammon is a good choice. The way it's played is a good example of having simplicity and a lot of depth. I've never seen anything in the videogame domain that had better playability than that. The only reason that videogames have become the more popular medium is because it's interactive visual and audio and it's easier to do by yourself. But people who really want to know the essence of gaming, in all its forms, should definitely master a traditional game. There are plenty of games within the realm of gaming that are deeper than videogames. So it's kind of pointless to debate playability in videogames without first learning the basics in that regard. "
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
I do agree there is a place for casual gaming as well. It's just that what's basically happened is that game devs looks at the casual gaming market, see how lucrative it is, and then want a piece of the action by cutting away at their more hardcore aspects of game design. We really see this with stuff like difficulty curves and gameplay density. But the trend does not go in reverse, there is no casual game with a huge audience that suddenly decides, you know what, it's time to get hardcore ha.
@deepstrider10 ай бұрын
Someone’s going to make chess but with side quests.
@sigurdtheblue9 ай бұрын
You basically say progress is bad even if there were more proper arcade experiences in the future. Why should players and developers limit their visions just because you like trashy arcade games the most???
@creeperkinght11443 ай бұрын
I think thats its funny that as a guy as young as I am I can recognize the flaws that have become standards in the design of modern gaming, and recgonizing that a good chunk of retro games, especially a huge portion of arcade games, have the key at least to some kind of degree. Ive found that I prefer retro games or indie titles that have that aspect of game design in quality retro and arcade titles, instead of FPS/generic RPG open world loot box extravaganza.
@BinaryDood9 ай бұрын
I remember installing the Neogeo and CPS2 emulator on my PSP. I ran through most of their libraries in less time than it would take to play a modern game. Mostly, not a single second of gameplay was bloated. The best thing about arcades, especially with the advent of emulators, is that they dont waste your time.
@thewhyzer9 ай бұрын
Did you use infinite credits/save states? Most of those types of games, in order to complete them with limited lives/credit, I'd need to practice them for far longer than it would take me to complete a modern AAA title.
@BinaryDood9 ай бұрын
@@thewhyzer oh yeah ofc
@werpu129 ай бұрын
Arcade design is not dead, it is just called Mini Games nowadays!
@bud3899 ай бұрын
I agree with your sentiment about classic arcade games being more fun than most modern games, but I disagree with the conclusions you're making. On a point by point basis: 1 - Difficulty Curve Is Gone - Wholly accurate, but it's a misattribution to claim that arcade games "perfected" difficulty. First off, Arcade games were designed foremost to keep the line of people moving in order to maximize profit. I would say console and PC games perfected difficulty curves better than Arcades for this reason alone, as once you bought the game, they had no incentive to keep you pumping quarters in or to move on to the next player. The term "quarter-muncher" exists for a reason, and it's a term that originated during the peak of the arcades in the 80's. 2 - Market Caters to Unskilled Players - True, however, arcades equally cater to unskilled players by allowing as many continues as you have money to dump into them, meaning anyone of even the lowest skill level can complete the game, given enough time and money, which eerily mirrors the Pay 2 Win model of modern games. 3 - Gameplay Density is Gone - This one, I have a major problem with. While it is true that in the 70's and early 80's, video games did used to be much shorter, for RPG's this was not the case at ALL. Even as early as Ultima 1 you had games reaching the 6 or 7 hour mark, and that's 1981. Fast forward only a few years to 1985 and you have Ultima IV being up to 30 hours long, and a few more years, and you have Wizardry 6 clocking in at over 40 hours in length, beating many modern RPG's which you claim to just be empty deserts of content. Using arcades as a scale to measure appropriate game length is also flawed since, again, they were aiming to maximize player-count, not maximize content, which they were sorely lacking in comparison to their console and PC brethren, since you were supposed to be designing games that were about 30 minutes long, with controls and choices that were simple and straight forward. You could not allow players time to explore and develop an impactful story or have complex multi-level game mechanics since you had people tapping their feet, waiting in line to be next up to play. 4 - The Arcade Allowed Innovation - Of all your points, this one I have the biggest problem with. Arcades were STIFLING for creativity, both specifically because of their limited gameplay mechanics in order to be as approachable as possible, limited gameplay length in order to rotate out the most skilled/money-laden players, and the constant need to be as punishing as possible to arrest progress for the player, and lastly, limited genre, since you would never see true RPG's or adventure games in the arcade. The closest to an Adventure Game you would find in arcades was Dragon's Lair, which was actually an Interactive Film, and the originator of the often looked-down-upon mechanic of "QTE's". Your comparison of Dark Souls gameplay originating in the arcades is also eye-raising, to say the least. I think Karateka has more in common with Dark Souls than any of the examples you cited, and it is among the earliest examples, and it first came out on the Apple II. I'm not saying arcades didn't innovate, but their innovation was somwhat isolated. Defender for example was hugely influential, but like-wise, Zork was even more influential, arguably, and would have been impossible to do in arcades. 5 - We've Lost Good Scoring Systems - Scoring was abandoned for multiple reasons. One of the reasons DOOM abandoned scoring was actually because of realism, as the "arcadey" aspect of simply trying to achieve as many points as possible was seen as contradicting to the tone of the game. I think a lot of developers chose to slowly move away from point-based gameplay because it trivialized player actions by incentivizing nonsensical strategies only to game the system for the highest amount of points. Although, technically, scoring has kind of merely changed in nature overall. I could argue that scoring simply transformed into the Achievement system, where now instead of comparing scores, you compare achievements, which can then be compared to all other players on the platform and how many of them have completed said achievements. Unfortunately, a lot of achievements in games nowadays equates to simply progressing through the game normally, and not actually achieving anything of real merit. So in that sense, you have a good point. Point systems/achievement systems could be done much better. 6 - Timers Need To Make A Comeback - Timers have - no pun intended - A time and a place to exist. They can be inserted into games at key points to increase the intensity of a situation or to emphasize something that needs completion, but overall, timers should not be inserted whole-sale into every game, and especially not become the entire basis of the overall game, unless that is a specific stylistic choice that has significance to the plot, because...Timers. Are. Annoying. Imagine if Breath of the Wild had a timer, so now instead of exploring the world and figuring out all the puzzles within it, now your time within the game world is limited and you need to act quickly in order to beat the game within a specific span of time, all to simply artificially force the player to replay the game to experience other parts of the game world that they could have normally and more enjoyably experienced by not having some god awful timer stressing them to move on to the next area as soon as possible. It would have been hated, and rightfully so, because it has this huge world to explore, and it's actively punishing you for exploring it instead of going the most direct route. And while many people may cite Majora's Mask as a counter-example, that timer reset and the game never ended when the timer ended. It was a groundhog-day game, where there technically was no timer, but instead a mechanic that complimented the unique story-telling aspect of the game, where once you "ran out of time", the game didn't end. I can think of a plethora of other action games where timers would never work, games like Ghost Recon, Diablo 2, STALKER, Dark Souls, Jedi: Fallen Order, and so on. 7 - Force Players To Engage - They are already engaged if they are playing the game in the first place. If I bought the game, there's no reason the developer should be "pushing" me to finish it in a certain amount of time, unless a specific section of the game requires it. The only reason that mechanic exists is to encourage players to make heavy risks which in turn results in them inevitably taking damage, in order to "quarter-munch" them. Again, reciprocating what I said in the previous paragraph, if a game has a specific section that forces you to act in a certain way or within a specific time frame, as long as it is justified in-game due to the circumstances, then it is understandable. Even if it is understandable though, that does not mean it still cannot be obnoxious. Imagine how much less fun Half-Life would be if you had a timer in the bottom corner of the screen constantly ticking away, and ironically that game has more than enough of a justification for including one, but it doesn't. Because Valve are genius developers that know what they're doing, and they know that including a timer in their game would completely screw over the player and the game world they created, and pull the player out of the immersive field they were in. They were intelligent in how they created specific sections of the game that incentivize the player to move forward, at key intervals, such as the first headcrab you encounter before you have any weapons, the sniper section, the moment you get topside and are constantly being assaulted. But then those sections end, and you go back to slowly making your way through the facility, perfectly punctuating the high-octane moments with more atmospheric segments. They compliment each other, which is what gameplay needs. It doesn't need some random NPC to pop out of the side of the screen to stupidly throw bombs at you for no reason. It needs internal justification, and even then, only periodically at best. What I believe is truly the reason for games becoming less fun is the same exact reasoning behind why movies have become less entertaining - They are all appealing to streamlined corporate formulas. Publishers are no longer letting studios develop the games they want to make, or letting them take risks, which is why all of the interesting games are nearly all indie titles nowadays. If you want to fix video games, it's the same solution as fixing movies; lessen corporate oversight.
@marx45389 ай бұрын
I think that this video being more generally applied to "games as a whole" creates some issues, but I think it's fair to say that you yourself don't really respect arcade games for what they are, either: I would like to bring the timer counterpoint for this. Sure, it might take people out of the immersion if there were timers and sudden NPC's without warning throwing grenades, and it would ruin the flow for those looking for an experience, but arcade games aren't "experiences", at least not in the same sense: they're meant to be mastered, replayed and thought through. Those games share more with math equations and saw traps, while HALF-LIFE, at times, is more of an interactive movie in some ways. That's why timers are there: because arcade games aren't about choosing between leisurely exploration and skill, they are here to threaten you with a sudden orbital strike if you don't move and then shoot you, seemingly out of nowhere. A more exploration-enjoying player might consider this baffling, unfair even, but one that enjoys arcade games will love to see that the shot came from an otherwise consistently spawning enemy that can be prematurely killed so the enemy rush that comes right after (also without any warning) isn't going to be as tough to deal with and that the game spent exactly 0 seconds on tutorials - because even a "non-intrusive" tutorial that might seem clever to someone looking for an immersive game, is a waste of time that isn't interesting to master and lacks depth to someone wanting to replay the game over and over. That's why in arcade games, length and density matter so much: even the first stage wasting your time or cutscenes being there means that every time you try again, you will have to see those. It will get very painful on the 412th attempt. In short, while I do respect your view and it is fair that this video avoided mentioning things like PC games of the day entirely, I think a game that "uses elements to invoke a certain feeling" isn't really what arcade games are about, and there's a big difference between one disconnected, scripted timer segment that is only urgent on a first playthrough in a game like one of the Metroid ones, and a constant ticking timer being one of the many things that can bring an otherwise successful try to a painful end, and I certainly respect an argument about the latter being way more exciting. I do legitimately see the point that not every game is made to be an arcade game, but I can see why some dismiss other games when arcade game design itself and any traits of it are dismissed and despised by so many people nowadays.
@bud3899 ай бұрын
@@marx4538 I think it's telling that you say the points in this video should not be "generally applied" to all video games, when I am quite sure that the uploader disagrees, and was in fact referring to "video games generally". I agree that for arcade games, timers are better, but he was using Ninja Gaiden (2004) as an example game, along with Devil May Cry. These are not arcade games. They are strictly home console games. You might say they have "arcadey style", but that's a different conversation altogether. "at least not in the same sense: they're meant to be mastered, replayed and thought through." - Sort of. Arcade games are too fleeting to properly "think through them" compared to something like Hearts of Iron. There is thinking involved, namely memory, involving optimal strategies, but there are far fewer factors involved in such strategies compared to other games which are longer, more drawn-out, and which have more depth. I enjoy arcade games from time to time, but I would hardly call them "thinking-mans games". "A more exploration-enjoying player might consider this baffling, unfair even" - Well, not even just an exploration-enjoying player, since a timer goes against the logic of entire genres, such as RPG's. Time sensitive quests exist, but those timers are usually hours or days in length. " That's why in arcade games, length and density matter so much" - So, you - and the uploader - use this phrase, "Gameplay density", but I think it's quite selective in the way it is used by the both of you. It seems gameplay density only seems to be things happening on screen, and the amount of time the player has complete direct control over the scenario, since in relation to other games, the "gameplay density" of arcade games is highly dubious. If you mean "player actions per second", well, Starcraft has that beat a hundred times over since there are players capable of 400 actions per minute playing that. That's a player doing 7 things within the span of a single second. If your definition of gameplay density is the depth of the game, well, Ikaruga is significantly less deep than something like ARMA, or Elite Dangerous. Ultimately, I think it's a nonsense phrase. I enjoy arcade games like House of the Dead, CarnEvil, Area 51 Site B, Street Fighter 3rd Strike, Metal Slug, Turtles in Time, and X-Men, but they are designed specifically for a certain market, with a certain emphasis in mind, an emphasis that absolutely does not represent all of gaming, nor should it. I would not argue for arcade-game design to be shared among all other game types, much like how I would not argue for console-based game design to be foisted upon arcade games.
@marx45389 ай бұрын
@@bud389 For arcade games, usually mastering such a game involves learning even how otherwise invisible to a casual player mechanics work and knowing the intricancies of even the most bizarre hitboxes. Gameplay density is not a number, nor is it something to measure, it's a design choice where every bit of the game, starting with the moment it begins and ending only once the credits roll, is malicious and aggressive towards the player: not a single bit spent on a friendly section, beyond maybe the initial hook: everything is made to make the player learn, fight back and experience a nonstop gauntlet of it all. That's not really something that, to my knowledge, exists in say, strategy games: those games aren't about that. I think it ultimately shows something interesting, being that while DMC isn't necessarily an arcade game, it's still arcade-inspired in design and made by people who loved arcade games. Where-as many strategy games, RPG's, simulators, tend to be almost from an entire different world, and it's a difference that I'd argue might be far larger than just a genre, and what led to the video creator to make such large labels - what he considers video games seems to be different from say, RPG's at the very core of what they aim to do and what rules they go by, and I can understand the frustration by RPG design when many games, even in the early 2000s, started implementing RPG traits into arcade and arcade-like works and how arcade design as a whole was discarded, at least by almost every larger video game studio, with certain series either dying (many shoot-em-ups and run'n'guns) or being turned into essentially RPG-esque games instead (Castlevania) At least, that is what I think, and I wish you a good day regardless if we agree or disagree.
@bud3899 ай бұрын
@@marx4538"it's a design choice where every bit of the game, starting with the moment it begins and ending only once the credits roll, is malicious and aggressive towards the player: not a single bit spent on a friendly section, beyond maybe the initial hook: everything is made to make the player learn, fight back and experience a nonstop gauntlet of it all. That's not really something that, to my knowledge, exists in say, strategy games: those games aren't about that." - We're not talking about gameplay density then, we're talking about specific playstyles, since there is more to gameplay than simply fighting. Based on your description, Animal Crossing doesn't have any gameplay. "Where-as many strategy games, RPG's, simulators, tend to be almost from an entire different world," - Yes, strategy games originate from games like Go, or Chess, or wargames. RPG's originate from tabletop RPG's like D&D. That does not make them any less video games though. People started discarding arcade-like designs because, based on customer trends, people largely started preferring games they could become more invested in. At the same time, it's not just "arcadey" designs that have fallen by the way-side, but simulationist designs have also fallen out of fashion. People point to Starfield as if that's some grand simulation game, when it's extremely shallow compared to something like Elite Dangerous.
@nrXic9 ай бұрын
I released a $3 racing arcade game for the Xbox and on my KZfaq trailer someone commented "imagine boasting about 3 tracks" which showed to me that there are a ton of gamers that expect games to hold a higher price with "more" content. I put more in quotes because those three tracks are incredibly dense in terms of design. Could have separated each of those tracks into three different tracks but instead I decided to have an easy, medium, and hard difficulty within those tracks with the track getting harder as it progressed. Though I did bend to the pressure and made the game easier in its first patch because too many people were having trouble with it. The people that stuck with it and progressed loved the difficulty. So it was a bit of a tough choice because you had some people that absolutely loved it but a whole lot of people that found it too hard. So I patched it. I think arcade game approaches can actually reduce the price of games because you're getting rid of a ton of extra features when you focus on the core gameplay mechanic. I don't have any upgrades or tuning or even manual transmission in my game. It lets me focus on polishing the controls to perfection and spend more time on track design which is core to making a fun racer. And I was able to release it for $3 (I actually gave it away for free, when COVID first hit, for people stuck at home).
@chrisxdeboy9 ай бұрын
It's always better to frustrate your player than to bore them.
@TornaderX24 күн бұрын
I think It's a delicate balance, It have to frustrate the player the right amount.
@chrisxdeboy24 күн бұрын
@@TornaderX You missed the point entirely.
@TornaderX23 күн бұрын
@@chrisxdeboy my bad : /
@Neawn-by5pi10 ай бұрын
Another thing about modern game design that, I swear I feel like I'm the only person on the planet who noticed because I haven't seen anyone talk about it, is that games nowadays are designed almost entirely around social media. Think about it, why do games cater to games journalists so much these days? Because then they would give it high scores, then said high scores would go straight into Metacritic, which then not only the publishers would use that on social media to show how great their game is, but also whoever played said game will celebrate this "achievement" on social media and will use it to deflect any criticisms on the game, therefore only "positivity". And here is where the snowball effect starts going, why do you think games nowadays spend so much money on marketing, more often than not more money on marketing than on the actual game? Because by making their games sound bigger and better than what they actually are, and by stretching information on the new game for as long as possible, each and every time they showcase something new, you bet that's gonna be trending on Twitter, and when it trends multiple times before the thing comes out, you have made your game "the next big thing". There is a ton, and I mean a TON of other examples I could use, but to not make this comment a 64 paragraphs rant on why I hate social media, let's just say arcade game design goes against EVERYTHING that social media revolves around. Journalists hate that style of design, it won't get good review scores, these kinds of games aren't stream-worthy because they're so short and streamers usually play a game once and move on, the mainstream revolves around "muh story" and arcade games usually don't have much of a story. Do I need to go on?
@BASEDSAKRI10 ай бұрын
Ive had the same thought, most recently for mario wonder. u can hardly find any critical comments about it due to the hype train and the youtuber nintendo fanboys almost financially have to act like everything thats shat outs a masterpiece. Im real tired of these hive mind echochambers and distance myself as much as I can.
@Neawn-by5pi10 ай бұрын
@@BASEDSAKRI I say give it a week or two, after that time period, one of two things will happen: 1- people will start to look at the game from an actual prespective, and many criticisms on the game will start popping up. Or: 2-the game will no longer have any kind of discussion to speak of, people will completely forget about it and move on to the next hype train for the next "masterpiece" that no one will remember. The sad part is that regardless of what will happen, it will be far too late for it to matter, which is something I should've mentioned in the original comment, devs and publishers usually don't listen to what I'm gonna call the "post hype-train clarity" crowd, nor do they listen to level headed people who have honest criticisms for the games because they're a minority.
@DOGEELLL3 ай бұрын
Pure facts Modern gamers are barely even gamer in a sense they care more about story and fake paid reviews than anything else like gamplay And the awful greedy monetization that casual eat up n a daily is the worst since it prove to dev that they have no standards
@mazuiface5 ай бұрын
This video should be a requirement for game journalists. You have brilliantly put into a concise video what I have been warning people about and trying to explain to my friends and peers for years regarding the departure from arcades and its impact on the core design of games. Take the way newer games are patched constantly and new content is added, often game breaking, in order to incentivize purchasing it is just one example of many - also the way difficulty is approached (or lack of real challenge) in newer games, etc. Bravo. Excellent essay. I will be sharing this with as many people as I can. I hope you can have an influence on future game devs to keep games actually challenging and, damnit, GOOD!
@mazuiface5 ай бұрын
Also, another great example that I think you missed, and one of the best for timers in console games, is Shinobi on PS2. They brilliantly fused the story with gameplay mechanics - Akujikji, your sword, eats your soul unless you kill enemies, forcing you to clear each area as quickly and stylishly as possible to avoid damage.
@chancepaladin10 ай бұрын
the "quarter muncher" strategy is exactly the same as the "rental" where the first two levels are polished and forgiving, designed to suck you in, but not let you get too far. then the curve ramps up through the roof. it's by design, and either love it or hate it, but it is a product of its era. ideally though, the rental-era gave us a way to eventually skip those first two levels, with passwords that we'd get after completing the level. ^_^ at least until you can endure the punishing curve and pwn the game like a bawwwws
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
oh yes the wall of difficulty in arcade game design ha. That's a great point. My thought on this has been I prefer arcade games that start harder and more challenging, rather than having this baby easy level 1 like dodonpachi. As much as I love DDP, I think DOJ has a much better design in this regard because it basically removes level 1 and starts on level 2.
@TheSamuraiGoomba9 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground The harder early levels feel really bad when you're a new player thrown into the deep end, but I agree that you appreciate them more the more you play them. Because on replays, you aren't sleepwalking for 5-10 minutes and waiting for the real game to start.
@AesculapiusPiranha9 ай бұрын
Rental was replaced by its ugly cousin subscription, but rental actually encourages a fair difficulty curve more than arcade because you want people to be satisfied with their weekly rentals so they come back and try newer games next week (and someone else rents the game you had) or you just love it so much you buy the copy. Arcades are tempted to have pay to win models with difficulty ramps that get you playing but push you out from going too far. Subscriptions are designed to be easy but take forever to do anything.
@HereticHydra10 ай бұрын
I hate how everybody criticizes Doom Eternal as "TOO cartooon ARCADEY!" when that's exactly why it's fun. The combat actually has a complex rule set. I thought Doom 2016 was just ok, I beat it in Ultra Hard & died like only twice. I'm constantly getting murdered in Eternal but I just want more of it because the combat loop is so damn fun. It reminds me of the risk vs reward mechanics of Streets of Rage 4 except the entire Doom Eternal campaign is basically SOR4's Survival mode.
@TheCyclicGamer10 ай бұрын
Imagine criticizing a video game for being a video game, that is the state of the gaming world right now.
@dfghj24110 ай бұрын
@@TheCyclicGamer i don't know if thats entirely true. i don't know about the criticisms or anything, i haven't played eternal because whatever, nothing today can surpass the original doom from 1993, but this criticism of the game being too cartoony seems to be a jab at its art direction maybe? i don't think anyone is criticizing the pacing or how satisfying it is to play.
@RinMariiiii10 ай бұрын
I kinda dislike this whole industry- and culture-wide idea that arcade-style experiences are "inferior" to what AAA studios put out in this day and age. Like this whole idea that first- and third-person shooters are "objectively" superior to rail shooters because they provide freedom of movement, ignoring that the player limitations of rail shooters allow for narrative dynamics and flow that one can't really get if they can just freely walk around wherever they want.
@neonkenomi32010 ай бұрын
Agreed, Panzer Dragoon is a good example of using the rail-shooter genre to enchance the narrative.
@viewtifuljoe999 ай бұрын
Having time limits and timers in games is such an unfairly hated mechanic in games nowadays. I definitely agree that limiting how much a player can do creates more interesting choices and pressure that in the end makes a much more compelling experience at times, rather than just moseying around collecting all the resources and doing all the sidequests. As much as people hate that a game like Persona 3/4/5 is tied to a school calendar, the fact that it is creates unique stories and experiences for each player to make it more personal rather than everyone just doing everything at a leisurely pace.
@todesziege9 ай бұрын
I think the hate for timers was partially caused by euro and american console/computer games that implemented them (and other arcade mechanics) poorly.
@noob_jr_2sjrkc10 ай бұрын
I might not care for punishing arcade difficulty, but I do care for short, dense games that I can pick up and finish in 2-3 hours. To me, games that hit that note are incredibly rare and immensely replayable. When I finished Sonic Mania I already have the urge to play it again because it's short and to the point. Same with Freedom Planet. This sort of replay value is largely lost and games like that are often criticized for being "too short". All that matters is "time to complete" and playtime only counts so long as you are working on an arbitrary checklist of things to do, be it progression, collectibles or achievements. Why would anyone play a game _for fun_?
@todesziege9 ай бұрын
The crusade against 'short' games is a sad thing. I've always felt that if you need a 'reward' to play a game, you're probably not really enjoying it and should maybe be doing something else. The ironic thing, of course, is that many of those 'short' games end up being a lot more replayable, while many of the longer games weren't all that engaging even the first time through.
@evan29025 ай бұрын
I played Sonic Mania endlessly when it came out. The only problem is that I got so used to it that it's now become boring...honestly the same issue I have with the other classic sonic games (although I still love them). Tanuki Justice, Donut Dodo, Cash Cow DX and Final Vendetta (granted that last one I'd consider super difficult at times) are also all great examples of how you can still do a short game incredibly well. Heck, one loop of Dodo or Cash Cow takes all of 10 minutes when you know what you're doing and I still go back to them.
@crawlingamongthestars373610 ай бұрын
Really good analysis, I especially found the observation that developers don't take as many chances on experimentation due to the different business models of arcade vs. home consoles interesting, but honestly most older people playing games are probably just too tired from or invested in their real lives to want to go through the trouble of developing skill in a video game that is brutally difficult in their free time. I mean that's SO many people in general... I'm older and not in that camp, I still like intense, challenging gameplay, but not many people my age would probably feel the same way... And if not that, then probably that younger people, who maybe should have more free time and energy to spare, are just increasingly these days being coddled into total laziness, that they don't even want to bother really developing skill in much of anything, so why would they bother either, when they can just watch their favorite streamer do it instead, or they can get stoned and play the newest AAA movie game that holds their hand the entire time? All this new technology is honestly spoiling the crap out of people, to the point where I think we are even seeing the negative effects of it in people's gaming tendencies...
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
yeah I think you are right about the older players not wanting to push themselves anymore. i see that completely because a lot of AAA games these days are not actually aimed at teenagers and so forth, I think they are aimed at guys in their 30s-50s. You see that in a lot of ways actually, down to how now AAA games are much more reserved and safe. Whereas back in the 90s and 2000s games were aimed at teens and young adults, so they were all about the edge and taking risks (Ninja gaiden, dead or alive, bless them).
@crawlingamongthestars373610 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, and I think it's also worth saying that with the younger players who actually do want hardcore action, the trend is towards 3D multiplayer shooters/battle royales that are more open-ended in how things might play out, instead of the 2D single player, heavily linear, trial and error experience of the shmup and so forth. Lots of young people seem to dislike the repeat gameplay that goes into mastering a very difficult 20 minute shmup, but they'll play Fortnite or Warzone hardcore for many, many hours no problem. It's interesting how it's changed.
@stolensentience9 ай бұрын
I think the vid discussed the real reason for this trend in that you only have to sell the game one time, so why bother with an incredible difficulty curve when you can just mash a 3d environment together and spend your budget on cutscenes with safe gameply
@fuzzystudios0110 ай бұрын
This is really descriptive of how I approached the game design in my own game. Constantly forcing the player to engage, making scoring high the most mechanically rewarding way to play the game, and making sure that the player is constantly challenged.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Exactly! I love to hear that my friend. Yes, no more of this have the player walk around empty halls for immersion or whatever. Keep the pressure going. :-)
@Truth_Hurts_Bad10 ай бұрын
The modern game format I stick with is Battle Royale because it's always challenging in that you can get clapped at any moment, by any one, from anywhere. It's based on the primal rush of "the hunt" involving surveilling, tracking and making the kill, all against others trying to do the same. Decision making and stress management are crucial, allowing you to stay executionally proficient when under attack, and you can't get sloppy, or risk the entire match for a simple misjudgment - this keeps the experience fun while not requiring dozens of hours to enjoy a match here and there.
@akairibbon465810 ай бұрын
Your bit about density is spot on. Games have such tremendous downtime and you might think its your attention span but honestly, like...the downtime is REALLY boring after a while. Long forced tutorials... like get me the hell outa there. I want to open a game and be enthralled for 60 minutes or so, not like... slowly reading text and opening menus. SF6 world tour mode is an example of an absolute abomination. It could have just been a beat'em up mode. Would've costed them less and been more fun.
@wonderwonka177410 ай бұрын
Remember Tekken force Beat Em' Up mode for Tekken 3 and 4...Good times.
@yone549910 ай бұрын
Gotta agree about the in-game timer. Sometimes people will say that a game like Pikmin is so easy that the timer doesn't matter, but even in that case I think it is great. Instead of pressuring you with failure it acts as a sort of scoring mechanic in itself. You can say, "I got all the parts in 10 days", then try to improve that score by optimizing your runs. In Pikmin 3 it felt rewarding to see 70+ juices lined up by the end of the game and was a big driver in my playthrough. I was going to start Pandora's Tower soon since I heard it has a similar timer mechanic that affects what ending you get. I think it can also end your entire playthrough too, if you aren't careful.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
YES a fellow believer in timers! I shall slowly wage a war to bring them back ha. Yes i love the timer in pikmin 1, how even though it isn't necessarily that strict, you still feel it is genuinely meaningful to beat the game in the shortest amount of days as possible, and the game was designed for that. It's one of the last sort of arcade feeling games made by nintendo I think. To this day I think it's pretty underrated.
@globalistgamer64189 ай бұрын
I agree that having a timer creates an incentive that matters even if it isn't very strict, especially since you can't know how strict it will be until the end. I think Pikmin 4 would have benefited from having a mechanic like having to spend a small amount of Raw Material every day to maintain the camp to at least create some reason to minimize the day count (however, to be fair to that game, I think Trial of the Sage Leaf has the most meaningful time pressure there has ever been in the series campaigns so far, and I also found Olimar's story significantly stricter than P1 overall). That said, I kind of disagree with Mark on this overall. While P2's overworld feels a bit aimless and degenerate (the lack of a timer is an issue here, along with generally recycling environments in less interesting ways), 2's main focus is the dungeons. Although those aren't timed, they have a different kind of resource pressure in that you usually can't farm new Pikmin inside the dungeon, and some of them are quite long and difficult to reach and defeat the boss in good enough condition to fully clear. This dungeon entry restriction limits how degenerate being able to freely farm Pikmin on the overworld is, and IMO makes P2 overall a more meaningfully challenging game than P1.
@angelnobody71375 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUndergrounddead rising is all i can think of and some youtuber in spanish I follow use to complain about how timer destroyed the game but he is so wrong about it, timer pushes you to stop relaxing your lazy ass and do something to get out of that situation
@KrieGor2710 ай бұрын
The main reason arcade philosophy doesn't work anymore is the size of the gamecenter. Back then, when you were going to your local arcade for like 2 hours or so, you had access to a limited amount of games. Arcade games needed to be engaging with their running demo, instantly fun, and hugely replayable. That was the key to being successful. You would just come back to the cabinets you liked the most. But now, the gamecenter is enormous. It's like you go to your local arcade for 2 hours but now there are hundreds of cabinets. So you just put one coin into each machine and by the end of your two hours, you still haven't experienced a tenth of the place. When I advice to someone "replay it in this higher difficulty", "aim for S rank", "try the trial mode" or whatever, the answer I'm most confronted with is "I've litterally hundred of new games in my wishlist/backlog I've yet to experience, why would I keep playing that game? I've seen every levels already". In the 90's, you were attracted to the gameplay and challenge and difficulty modes because you would play that game dozens of time. Now when people buy an "arcade-style" game, it's usually for 5 bucks or so thanks to sales, they're looking for a stress-relief disposable adventure between 2 slices of that 60 hours long AAA experience. And that's shaping the market. Basically, everyone is becoming a profesional journalist, with a ton of games to evacuate more than engage with. So instead of having dense short hard highly replayable games where the goal is more to improve your score than necessarily reach the end, we have more and more stories to discover, worlds to explore, basically new things to see. We switched from being mainly actors to mainly spectators. Even bosses are designed as new visual experiences first, so we cut a lot of interactivity with them because it's paramount to let them show everyone of their patterns.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh that's such a good point! yes because in the past the arcade was like a movie theater, where it had its older hits in a section (pacman and all that) then it had the other 70 percent of the arcade decicated to the new machines coming out. And then the smaller arcades would have the sort of olderish games that they would pickup secondhand, like the cheap movie theaters. It was a really cool system actually. But yes now arcades are like video rental stores where there aren't new games coming in for the most part, so it's mostly dedicated to older machines that you've played all huddled together. So rather than dedicating to the same machine for yours, you sort of float through and sample everything.
@khaosklub10 ай бұрын
I'd argue more that it's an issue of convenience. people have gaming on their phone. arcades require you to drive and possibly wait for the machine you want. arcades probably thrived more in the 80's/90's because: 1) arcades had better hardware. the games in the arcade looked waaay better than home versions of games until the gamecube/PS2 era, where consoles were pretty much on paar with arcade games graphically. before then, and especially before PSX/N64, arcades looked waaaay better than what was possible on consoles. arcades were where one went for both the best spectacle and good gameplay, so it attracted both major demographics of gamers today. today, modern consoles are very capable when it comes to spectacle, but these spectacle games are super expensive to produce. to recoup the cost, they make the games easy and handholding to accommodate the lowest common denominators. so gameplay is sacrificed for greater accessibility and thus greater revenue and hopefully some profit. 2) arcades were cheaper in the 90s, games were $40+ new ($40 in today's money is more like $80), and the good games were often $70+. that's like 70-280 rounds on arcade. this is also why people played the same games 100x back in the day. games were expensive and short. once you mastered them, you had to spend another $70+ for a great experience, or just keep replaying them. especially if you were a kid, unless your parents were loaded, you weren't getting very many games nor consoles. with the advent of digital gaming, indies have entered the competitive market with games ranging from $5-$30 (like $2-$17 in 90's money). mobile popularized the free2play model too, and even quality freemium games on mobile cost like $2-10 typically. there are also plenty of mobile games that mimic the arcade styles and have design philosophies to encourage you to spend money, just like the arcades. cheaper games, as well as gamers of the 90's growing up and having huge disposable incomes is why people all have massive backlogs/wishlists. games are also longer with more to do in them, so a lot take a lot more time to complete than most games from the 90's 3) gaming was more niche gaming was considered dorky and grounds for being bullied. even today, gaming is considered for kids, but it wasn't even accepted for kids back in the day. so, casual gamers were pushed away from the hobby because of the social stigma, and only hardcore gamers remained for the most part. arcades (as well as LAN centers) were places where the ostracized gamers could gather and socialize (internet was barely a thing in the 90s, and even less of one in the 80s). today, everyone can call themselves gamers. people who play candy crush on mobile, dudebro gamers playing gears of halo dutyfield, people playing farming sims. all gamers now, and all socially accepted as such except men aren't allowed to play video games because it's "childish". because everyone is playing, and most are just casual gamers, AAA caters to the larger market, which is mostly casual gamers, and some of the dumbest people to have walked the earth. thus games have to hand hold and be feel good interactive movies in order to appeal to the most people. indie games fill in the void left by AAA for hardcore games (as well as low budget casual shovelware). but hardcore appeals to only to a niche few, and arcades would have to compete with consoles, PC and mobile, which offer a much better value these days. it's too expensive to match the spectacle of modern AAA movie games unless the arcade cost like $10 to play per round, and when AAA movie games are like $10 to own within a year, it's really a hard sell.
@balther1010 ай бұрын
I like and heavily agree with this comment. I’ve been playing octopath traveler 2, megaman starforce 3 and Azure striker gunvolt 3 and I’m really enjoying how they these games just feel like old school games that I used to enjoy. I’m also replaying the megaman zero collection and the games seem “harder” than I remember.but than I realized that it’s not harder I’ve just been playing too many easy af games.
@totalpartykill99910 ай бұрын
having grown up in the 80s, i definitely recall with great nostalgia those old dark pizza parlors with the animatronic thingies and the dark hallways filled with arcade cabinets. i cant put my finger on it, but there really was a classic arcade aesthetic, that even home consoles couldn't replicate. something about the tinny music and the ultra colorful sprites that was specific to those cpu boards. the only way i can even reexperience that is through a MAME emulator, which i am thankful for.
@DrewPicklesTheDark9 ай бұрын
One thing I always hated when the gaming-sphere was when the design shifted from players adapting to the game to the game adapting to the players. I understand why, from a purely business perspective the former worked back in the day (and the tech to constantly change a game wasn't there either), and now catering to the most amount of people is the more profitable method (well actually whaling is, but assuming the game doesn't go that route). I'm just tired of seeing games I like changed in the name of "accessibility" Also one thing in regards to score, I think a score + time limit would be interesting. Score alone is boring since you can max it out via endurance, time alone is just annoying in most context, but a "How many points can you score in X minutes" are usually rather fun.
@anonemoose777710 ай бұрын
13:47 I love karl jobst, love speedrunning… but this is definitely a downright chilly take I see a lot. “Truly the archaic dark age of arcade score attack was dreary where you had to do whatever the game wanted to get a high-number-is-ideal score like in bowling” “Thankfully we live in the halcyon golden age where we have the freedom to…. do whatever the game wants to shave time and get a low-number-is-ideal score like in golf” Corporate needs you to find the differences in player instrumentality in these things… oh wait, they’re the same bang-on, nuanceless, precise, exact, 1:1, thing. >buh guh glitch hunting! Exist in score attack >buh wuh wacky unintended gameplay! Exists in score attack… >wuh tuh, tas community! Exists in score attack >wuh suh streaming! …exists in score attack? Speed running is score attack where the score is the time number instead of the point number and less number is judged better. That is quite exactly the one minor difference with every single aspect of one existing in the other and the level of self challenge and instrumental gameplay being exactly the same. Very few things in life are this clear cut, nuanceless with no room for variety of conclusion but this is. The only subjectives here are which you might prefer doing or watching. 😂
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Yes I think it's some kind of hold over attitude among speedrunners where they truly think that scoreplay is garbage because the only scoreplay they are familiar with is really old 80s stuff like Donkey Kong ha. Where almost all of the innovative scoreplay design has taken place in the shmup genre. A genre speedrunners don't like and never look into ha.
@bruhmaxxer10 ай бұрын
Hey, you should showcase games that follow that old arcade design philosophy.
@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS7710 ай бұрын
Interesting idea. Maybe he could like, start a KZfaq channel devoted to the topic
@AcceleratingUniverse10 ай бұрын
what channel have you been watching buddy
@bruhmaxxer10 ай бұрын
@@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77 Yeah, and he could call it the lightning metro
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
absolutely!! Definitely one of the goals of the channel for sure! I think Wanted: Dead actually does, one of the reasons why I really enjoyed that game. It's not perfect, but it has the right idea.
@J.J._777_7 ай бұрын
I think one of the biggest differences with arcade gaming is the ability for a player to try a new game for very little upfront cost versus nowadays having to buy a full game for $70 or whatever. I could see arcade-style games possibly making a comeback under a subscription model; there would just need to be enough consumer demand for it.
@SlashScar10 ай бұрын
Great takes and insights in your videos, as always. Outside of the first few Tony Hawk's Pro Skater games I have rarely seen console games where scoring was the main focus and where the system was intricate, intuitive and well implemented enough to reflect it. Shmups, rhythm games and other indie and doujin games notwithstanding,
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Yes man I really miss that era of licensed games where a lot of them were terrible, but every so often we d get a gem of arcade style action with them like pro skater
@gojira51574 ай бұрын
I think DMC and godhand are close
@user-eg2wt1xj2t9 ай бұрын
Totally agree the gameplay density thing. Im so sick of playing games that has 10min cutscene, 10min walking talking before the actual gameplay.
@benjaminturkalj441510 ай бұрын
I feel like the biggest issues with arcade gaming comes from the media and its unfortunate slide into a more promotional approach for frankly mediocre titles. I laughed when i saw when article noting that starfield gets good after 14 hours! They have a major part to play in influencing peoples desire to play, and this usually includes treating arcade style efforts as 'lacking value'. Scoring systems always add value in my opinion.
@TheCyclicGamer10 ай бұрын
Loved this video, and allow me to give my take on the subject. I don't think it's just the classic Arcade game that developers have abandoned in modern AAA games, I also think it's the fear to punish the player for playing poorly. To me, games, not just video games, all forms of gaming, are a challenge and/or competition of risk vs reward. A lot of modern video games focus too much on the rewards for that dopamine effect without providing a sense a risk to overcome which would make earning that reward feel all the more satisfying once you earn it. For example, I played A Hat In Time, a 3D Mario-style platformer, for the first time earlier this year, I liked the game despite my issues with it like the poorly done horror level everyone went crazy about. What is interesting about A Hat In Time however is that even though you have checkpoints in the game, what you don't have are extra lives. You can die infinitely in A Hat In Time and still respawn at a checkpoint with nothing lost but small amounts of time and progress. This does not fly in games like Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine, both of which A Hat In Time are clearly inspired by. I've tried talking about this in A Hat In Time's subreddit and got lambasted for it because to them, extra lives are an "outdated" mechanic and would've made the game more frustrating, even though A Hat In Time is arguably easier than it's main source of inspiration. To me, there's no such thing as an outdated mechanic or an outdated game design, not even something like extra lives. Extra lives incentivized you to play smart and carefully because you got punished for not doing so by losing a life, and losing all your lives meant that you had to restart the whole level all over again, which you didn't want. That's what made the Mario games fun; The challenge of navigating the levels and platforms, the risk of falling/dying and losing a life, and the reward of collecting a star/getting to the flag. A Hat In Time has the challenge, it has the reward, but it doesn't have the risk. EDIT: After playing Snatcher's challenges, I'm actually glad AHIT doesn't have extra lives LMAO.
@troykv9610 ай бұрын
yeah, I don't think a mechanic is really outdated, but it needs to find it's place in the game design. In some games Extra Lives feel like something that exists just for legacy, but in other games is key to it's intented design and difficulty curve.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
What an awesome comment! Yes I agree that what modern game design is all about is trying to constantly give the players all carrot and no stick. Basically how do we find a system that only rewards the players and never punishes them? And the result is this very stretched out slow drip feed style. Vs arcade design which hands you the entire carrot, lets you start to eat, and then smacks it out of your mouth ha.
@TheCyclicGamer10 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground To further expand on what I said. Survival Horror games are another genre I've spoken multiple times about and why they stopped being scary is because they aren't any detrimental/irreversible consequences to dying in modern Survival Horror games. RE1 was a scary game not necessarily because of the enemies, but because dying meant you lose hours of progress, especially since saving was a limited resource then. Survival Horror games need to make dying the scariest thing the game first and foremost, because if there is reason to fear dying, then there is no reason to fear the things that can kill you. Minecraft is a fantastic example of this, the average MC player fears dying when playing on survival or hardcore mode because of the potential to lose valuable items and resources, if not their entire run. Compared that to modern AAA survival horror games when dying usually means returning to a nearby checkpoint to try again.
@TheCyclicGamer10 ай бұрын
@@troykv96 If you play Ace Combat games, the first one on PS1, Air Combat, had a clever implementation of the extra life system; It was dependent on how many jets you bought and had in your storage. If you crashed a jet in a mission in Air Combat, you lost that plane and couldn't restart that mission with it, the only way to do so was to rebuy it, and you couldn't buy the same jet twice. If you crashed all your jets, it was game over. The Ace Combat games that came after abandoned this system, now you can crash your jets an infinite number of times.
@troykv9610 ай бұрын
@@TheCyclicGamer I can't help but find the idea of someone just constantly crashing their jets over and over again instead of actually playing the game quite funny. But yeah, I see your point, it used to be inmersive.
@tanktheta9 ай бұрын
Hey, a Dev here. You know, I gotta say you've encouraged me to add a timer to a game I never thought I would. And thankfully, I got the perfect premise for it too. Lets see how well it goes. Thanks for this video, you've given me quite a lot to chew on.
@kaishmuper10 ай бұрын
Excellent video mark. Longer games will always be easier than short ones, and its kinda sad that games with mechanics and difficulty condensed in short gameplay sessions are almost impossible to sell these days.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
yes and I think the fact that most gamers have been brought up in this, games are easy, environment also makes it harder for short tough games to get a footing. It's like hitting a bunch of people who only eat sweet sugar with 100 proof whiskey or something ha.
@americanshogun6099 күн бұрын
To add to what I had already said, I think Helldivers 2, despite its shortcomings, perfectly fills the OG classic arcade style of dense gameplay that you've laid out.
@SaturmornCarvilli10 ай бұрын
I don't agree with the evidence of this video much. It feels more about things that arcade games had that modern games don't and makes that out as the reason arcades/classic genres don't exist. Difficulty: There have been easier and there had been harder arcade and classic games. Using Shovel Knight as an example of a modern retro game that doesn't feel like a classic game because it's too easy feels like a bad example. Admittedly, I'm not good at platformers, but I didn't find Shovel Knight any easier than any of the Super Mario Bros. games or even the later NES Mega Man games. I'd say they are about the same. And there were certainly easier games than that on the NES, SNES and Genesis. Gameplay Density: Gameplay Density is not a universal positive of game design. Just like jokes per minute isn't for a comedy movie. For some genres it works great, for others it doesn't. Golden Tee was a very popular arcade cabinet. It didn't have tons of gameplay density. I think there's a conflation of arcade games wanting to be brief to change out players to game density. And when you move to consoles, that need to have high drop rates isn't there. There was still the desire for 'Nintendo Hard' both as to keep players from renting the game and beating in 3 days and the game isn't very long, so make it really hard so the player gets their money's worth or doesn't find out how short it actually is. Scores: Scores matter less outside of arcades or games that have a definitive conclusion. I don't think I really cared about my score on any home console since the Atari 2600/ Magnavox Odyssey II days. Scores only matter if you have competition to try for higher scores. On home consoles, that largely meant other neighborhood kids. And since most of didn't have the same games unless they were wildly popular or sports games, there was no competition. As for the popular titles like SMB2, SMB 3 or whatever, it more down to who beat it first. Which is just as much a genesis for speed runners. 30-40 years on, I care even less for proving myself to be elite with any video game. I'd be hard-pressed on many games that are made better with timers. It's basically arcade racing games and fighting games. Racing games like Out Run generally allow for more play time (if played to go as fast as possible) with a timer over say a number of crashes early on. And fighting games have to have that timer to deal to people stalling doing anything. I think Kid Chameleon is made lesser with a timer limiting exploring the game. Just as SMB, SMB3 and the Castlevannia games with timers would basically be unchanged. I've beaten Castlevannia II and Metriod a bunch of times, but I never really bothered rushing the experience to get the 'good' ending. I can't fathom how Blaster Master, Bionic Commando or both Legend of Zelda I/II could better with timers. None of them are considered easy titles that I'm aware of. Simply put, arcades went away for the same reason video stores went away. Customers could get product of comparable quality at home without them. And once these games were played largely at home, things needed to keep players paying to play weren't needed. A lot of these classic/retro elements were just evolved away from as there weren't pressures for them to be there anymore. Which is why modern retro genres don't really have them: they are not important to most people that want to recapture the feeling of playing retro games. You can hate the term quarter munchers. But there absolutely were arcade games full of beginner's traps and other elements that required the player to either try again and again or feed another quarter to continue. I don't see anyway that someone could walk into an arcade cold and just play Truxton II on a single credit. They might be able to do that with practice, but guess what? That's how they game munched their quarters. It's not the single credit clear run that possible that makes a game a quarter muncher. It's all the quarters it takes to get there.
@javorgeorgiev613010 ай бұрын
There's also the arcade hardware vs home console dynamic. Arcades could afford to squeeze you for your money, because the experience of Metal Slug sprite art and on screen action was far above anything possible on a console. A lot of arcade games hold up in gameplay, but they certainly could get away with being generic far more than a console title could. Arcade games didn't need to try too much past the initial few levels as not everyone had the amount of quarters and time to put in to actually beat one, and if people were starting to get close, some had difficulty switches to crank it up to make sure no more than 1% ever got to finish a title. Some were clever enough to keep the curve more modest until the final two levels, so you feel you have only a little bit left till completion, only to find out you will dump 50 times more quarters into those, if you're good. Any kid that didn't have much was thinking more about how little time with the game they'll have over enjoying it. The more money someone had to spend, the more active time they got with the game to get good at it, so in a way it was pay to win, even though skill was required. The one fun positive was that often people would form groups around a popular game and continue one after another until they all got to see the ending. The negative is sometimes the owner noticed and would pump up the difficulty, if the game had it as a setting. Made you feel like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick or a hamster running inside a torture treadmill. Sadly, I got more enjoyment out of beating Sonic 3 at home every single day after lunch and making my own challenges to keep myself interested, than anything the arcade had to offer, and I was literally obsessed with the arcade games. I used to go to sleep daydreaming about playing X-men vs Street Fighter and Metal Slug X, then dream about it while sleeping, and think about it during class at school, and on breaks. My one reason to get up and live was the short amount of time I could get each day at the arcade with just 4 quarters. In retrospect, I got more joy out of the thought and longing to play the games, than actually playing them. Probably a big factor to the popularity of fighting games at the time was people thinking they're getting more value playing that, because if you reached a level where you're ahead of the rest, you stayed there for a very long time, meaning you put one quarter in and that might be your whole day at the cab, until someone would start a fight to physically remove you from it. There was no incentive to develop a community around it, because it meant you got to play less on the cabinet.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
Shovel knight is definitely easier than Super Mario Bros. And the Megaman games. Most indie games are easier than the classics. Gameplay density is universal. It would certainly make open world and rpg games less of a bore. Score can be good without the incentive of competition like with Tony Hawk Skateboarding or Donkey Kong Jungle Beat. Just not enough developers do it. Mark gave good examples of how timers could prove certain games. The thing with timers Super Mario Bros and the like is that the timing is too generous. Shorten it and it would make a huge difference.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
WE know why arcades died out. Mark is arguing that we shouldn’t totally abandon it and it could improve modern gaming which has replaced it with garbage.
@javorgeorgiev613010 ай бұрын
@@magicjohnson3121 Adventure Island 2 and 3 were based around the timer running out. It starts easy and steadily ramps up. The design must have not been popular, because it was abandoned in 4. My guess is the mass consumer doesn't want extra pressure. They want a challenge, but not the kind the hardcore veteran wants. They're not as desensitized to difficulty and mechanics. Video games are a business for consumers in general. They don't exist specifically to please the gen x and millennials that were there in the early era. The "good stuff" and innovation seems to come from indie devs not because working for a corpo sucks your creativity away, but because there is no need to get that creative for an audience that is new to games and covering the niche of gamers that care is worth it only when you're small time.
@evan29025 ай бұрын
I would agree that he harped just a bit too much on the "quarter muncher" thing. If he chooses to see it as derogative, that's on him. Arcades were meant to extract money and even the "easy" ones such as Metal Slug 1 are guilty of the beginner's traps you mentioned. It's just the nature of the business and the term reflects that.
@Galaxy40k9 ай бұрын
Something that's been on my mind for a while now is how I think the "rise of rogue-likes" is because people are missing these sorts of arcade design elements from modern AAA games. Arcade games and rogue-likes/lites share a lot in common: high difficulty, a focus on tossing you into the action ASAP, forcing the player to master the game (the arcade 1cc is similar to clearing a roguelike playthrough), gameplay density, etc. The key difference is that rogue-likes are palatable to modern tastes by recontextualizing "you died, now you have to play the game from scratch" as "you died, now you need to play a game that is 95% similar and you're 1% stronger." And while that change loses some of the magic of arcade design, it does a TON to help modern gamers mentally accept the game design. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the genre someday dude. I think you'd bring such a great perspective. Most YTers covering those games come from a modern AAA mindset
@100hundert10 ай бұрын
Tetris The Grandmaster is such a beautiful example of how the arcade environment shapes a game. Sega Tetris was super popular, but way too easy. Mihara turned the basic concept into the fantastic game that is TGM1, and soon polished it into the absolute masterpiece of game design that are TGM2+ and TGM3. Tight, focused, relentless, with the most amount of gameplay density you can achieve within a game. I mean, Gameboy and NES Tetris are fine. But while I enjoy these versions of Tetris, TGM turned what used to be fun distractions into one of my favorite games of all time. Without the arcade focus, I don't think they would have turned these games so hardcore and uncompromising! In Tetris DS, you can just keep rotating the pieces, stalling the game until you thought about your next move. In TGM, the pieces lock faster and faster not matter what - forcing you to keep improving. It seems like such a small detail at first, but it changes the entire game.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh yes TGM is legendary! It's so mechanically dense I m not even sure it s a puzzle game honestly. I think of it more as an abstracted action game ha. I should make a vid about it at some point
@LawrenceAaronLuther2 ай бұрын
"gameplay density": great term. I've thought subconsciously about what it was regarding all the down time in newer games, and it's why I've always hated RPGs for their dreadful wasting of my time (if I want a story, then I'd prefer 100% "story density," aka a book or movie) and that phrase is perfect.
@kpsk803110 ай бұрын
I agree with a lot of of your points. Except: Very popular games like MK2 ruined the perception of arcade difficulty because of input reading and blatant cheating.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh MK ha, yeah MK (as my as I like 3) is not the best example of solid game design in like any sense ha. Not only was it unfair but it was also broken AF ha. Though I do have a soft spot for mk3 ultimate as like the American kuso.
@Truth_Hurts_Bad10 ай бұрын
Dude, I was *just* thinking about how I saw a video of someone saying "many mechanics of Dark Souls have been implemented into modern games, like RE4 remake." and thought, these mechanics have been in fighting games and brawlers since the cabinet age. 3rd Strike had parries, Garou had Just Defend, Last Blade 2 had parries, Samurai Shodown has evasive hops and dodges, King of Fighters has dodge rolls and the list goes on and on. There's nothing like the arcade experience, the games were so well-crafted and exciting. Amazing sound, pixel art, non-stop action and just the simple charm of patternization and hi-score chasing; they're still among my favorites. I was born in '90 when home consoles were becoming the "arcade experience at home" but I still remember being absolutely HYPED to go to the arcade, ANY arcade! You walk in and get dunked in a wall of noise and flashing lights, cabs lined up side-to-side - unmatchable experience. Big cheers!
@Truth_Hurts_Bad10 ай бұрын
That vid might've been by you?! Anyway, cheers!
@Steve-Fiction10 ай бұрын
Absolutely great topic. People are so dismissive of arcade games, I've seen many people claim that arcade genres or arcade game design are bad or outdated. But honestly I gotta defend Shovel Knight a bit lol, I think it's such a success story because it's not mind-numbingly easy or lame
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Ha I hold no ill-will against shovel knight, I think it's a cute game and everything. But it is such a perfect example of the standard everyone is aiming at. Where it's got a lot of the trappings of classic games, but without the bite. One indie game that I really liked that is sort of an alternative to shovel knight was cyber shadow. That game is pretty crazy and has much more of a classic difficulty curve. It made a bit of a splash when it came out, but no one talks about it anymore sadly.
@khaosklub10 ай бұрын
I'd be one of those people, but that really depends on the arcade game. arcade game isn't a genre, it's a platform. just as wii games are generally designed around motion controls, arcade games are designed around eating quarters. a lot of arcade design is bad and outdated, but not all. Arcades still have a lot to offer that you can't typically get at the home experience, like racing games where you're in an actually moving seat of sorts, or rhythm games with interesting control mechanisms. for example, Dance Dance revolution. while it used to be available in both arcades and console, arcades were superior, as the metal pads and double metal pads allowed for a superior experience. but, arcade design philosophy is just the progenitor of modern mobile gaming. just like the free2play model on mobile, you could do well in many arcade games with minimal money and sufficient skill, or you could just pay to win, particularly when it comes to beat'em ups. "fairness" of an arcade game could be adjusted by the operators a lot of the time to try to find that sweet spot where people will spend the most money, just like mobile games playing off human psychology to get you to spend the most. both design philosophies revolve around maximizing how much money people will spend while playing. and if you look at the top grossing arcade games of all time, they tend to be fighting games, which has carried on very well outside of arcades. others are games like pac-man, defender and space invaders. these types of games are alive and well on mobile, and evolving there.
@stolensentience9 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUndergroundcyber shadow was awesome but was quite forgiving with its checkpoints and easy bosses. And it was way too short and relied on dumb achievements to lengthen the playtime. I absolutely loved it though and it had an arcade feel with the platforming and bullet hell aspects, with very satisfying to master movement tech.
@Steve-Fiction7 ай бұрын
@@khaosklub My god, you are exactly the kind of person I was talking about.
@steve-rambo10 ай бұрын
I feel like knowing that you're supposed to 1CC arcade style games instead of just credit feed is important. It wasn't until I was a grown ass man that I'd even heard of the concept. Kinda wish there was a giant sing outside of all arcades that was like ""HELLO PAYPIGS, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO 1CC THESE. THAT IS HOW YOU BEAT AN ARCADE GAME." (playing for score is always cool, tho, and I like it when arcade owner make a point to write down top scores) I like that youtuber can now spread the message, but it'd be cool if arcade owners and devs made a point to educate consumers as to why they should like arcade games.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
It does open up a whole new world. Arcade games can be an experience as well to be fair with how over the top they can be.
@steve-rambo10 ай бұрын
@@magicjohnson3121 fr, you literally can't top that kind of pure gameplay
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Yes this is a critique I've had of arcade ports. Even though it makes sense to have the ports support freeplay, I think that is not actually capturing how the games are intended to be played since in the arcade you feel the pain of actually spending money. Arcade ports are getting more savvy about this and indie shmups are getting smarter about this, but yes it's very important to communicate to the player that the games are meant to be played in one credit.
@steve-rambo10 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground Might just ask my wife to kick me in the nuts when I lose to simulate the pain of losing precious quarters
@TheSamuraiGoomba9 ай бұрын
The most based arcade games would freeze/reset your score if you got a Game Over. So that only the first credit counted towards your posted score.
@konataizumi611910 ай бұрын
Was pretty much agreeing with everything you said up until you brought up Pikmin 2. Pikmin 2 does not have a day limit, but individual days still have timers, and you are are incentivized to clear the game as quickly as possible because of new enemies that respawn and obstacles being rebuilt after several days pass. Additional pressure is placed on you in dungeons, where you can't grow any new Pikmin. The caves are procedurally generated, but the enemies, obstacles, and treasures remain consistent. Having two captains you can switch between opens up a lot more interesting routing options, much moreso than in the first game in my opinion. The problem with Pikmin 2, in my opinion, is that it tries to have it both ways. It has large overworlds to explore, and dungeons, when the whole game probably should've just been the dungeons. The overworlds just end up wasting your time and feel like giant level select menus. If you try playing Pikmin 2 at a faster pace, it's definitely the hardest and most interesting Pikmin game to play. The enemy and boss designs are way more interesting than anything in 1. The problem is that it doesn't give you a reason to do so in the campaign, you have to want to do it for your own enjoyment. The Challenge Mode, where you go through short caves with a limited number of pre-selected pikmin, and a timer, I think is the best showcase of Pikmin 2's gameplay. Pikmin 2 is not quite as elegantly designed as Pikmin 1, but the dungeon crawling aspect I think is something most people overlook. Either they complain it's too casual because you have infinite time (nothing is stopping you from standing around and doing nothing in Mario 64 or RE4 either), or they complain it's too unfair because of the randomization, which if you know what you're doing you can work around easily. I was excited for the concept to be expanded in Pikmin 4, but instead the caves in that game are mostly puzzle-focused instead of combat-focused like in 2. If you want to experience the pinnacle of Pikmin 2 gameplay, I highly recommend checking out the Colossal Caverns mod, which throws every enemy and treasure into a single giant randomized gauntlet.
@wombocorp10 ай бұрын
I completely agree with this. I think 4 has the opposite problem where the caves feel like huge wastes of times because they're more puzzle-focused. I think the criticism about the timer's absence in 2's caves is a lot more applicable to the caves in 4. The issue is that because there's no timer you don't have to worry about trying to find the most efficient way to complete the puzzle, it won't change anything and you're not incentived to do so. This isn't the case In 2 because the challenge isn't to be as efficient as possible, it's about surviving through the cave without all your pikmin dying because they're combat-focused. This challenge is completely non-existent in 4 and makes their inclusion feel pointless.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh i've played pikmin 2 and it's not a terrible game or anything, I beat that entire sucker myself. But it's the classic Nintendo design of NEVER increasing the difficulty or challenge of a series, but instead just redoing the game with a new twist. So instead of continuing what I think was the real secret sauce of Pikmin 1, that 30 day time limit, they just dropped it in favor of these little dungeons. But take a step back from that: why do the dungeons matter? Why does your performance matter? If you mess up a dungeon 100 times, what's the worst that happens? all you have to do is just take a day (you have infinite) and farm yourself some more pikmin. Whereas in pikmin 1, if you start making crazy bold moves and start losing pikmin, you REALLY feel that mistake because you cannot undo it. Even if you spend a day farming pikmin, you've lost that day and that is irreversible. So pikmin 1's design is bold and interesting. Pikmin 2 is safe and standard. it's a fun game, but in my book a huge step down from the original. And pikmin 3 I think they just ran out of ideas ha. Because the golden rule of nintendo is NEVER make a game harder, don't you dare ha. Always just shake it up and make it more palatable for the average player. Thanks for the awesome comment though!
@konataizumi611910 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground It's true that on the surface, your performance does not matter. I think Pikmin 2 is at it's fullest when you have the intrinsic motivation to be good at it. I think it's a philosophic question of who should really be responsible for making sure the player knows the mechanics of a game: the game itself or the player? Pikmin 1 forces players to learn because of its punishing time limit, but Pikmin 2 asks more of the player if you decide to be efficient. Maybe it's because I've played 1 so many times by now, but I still think that 2 is much more challenging and punishing. But you have to be the kind of player that doesn't reset their save in dungeons, doesn't feel like farming, and doesn't like taking their time. To me, Pikmin 2 is more fun when you don't do all these things, so saying that the game is easier just because you can do them is meaningless to me. Pikmin 2 is designed to be learned and played efficiently, even if you personally decide not to do that. Breaking the established conventions of Pikmin by turning it into a roguelike-ish dungeon crawler was anything but a safe decision, and the game remains polarizing inside and out of the Pikmin fanbase. Are Mario 64 or Sunshine less mechanically rich games because you can sit around and wait as long as you want, unlike Super Mario Bros. 1/2/3/World which have a time limit? I don't think so. Even if you don't speedrun the game, you have many more movement options, and both game's physics allow for more interesting techniques that the 2D games don't really have. You can sit forever, but is that honestly the game's intended design? To be left idle, or to farm for 1UPs so you never get a game over? I don't think so. Apologies for the lengthy reply, but I do find the discussion of player responsibility fascinating, as it relates to a lot of fundamental aspects of game design.
@scottmichaelhedge505510 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground Have you played Metroid Dread? For a Nintendo game it provides a pretty beefy challenge--I certainly enjoyed it.
@kdsm64247 ай бұрын
funnily enough I started caring about scoring because of sonic project 06 lol especially with the shadow campaign where it's alot more fun to play for score due to its more "combat" focus of the original game, now expanded in project 06
@Vadim_Slastihin10 ай бұрын
I think it's unfair to compare rpgs with arcade games because rpgs were always like that. Fallout 1-2, planescape, baldurs gate 1-2, ultima 7, final fantasy 7. All these games are pretty old and can't be discribed as modern, but they take atleast 20 hours to beat. Good video overall. One of my all time favourite game is dead rising 1 and it's an arcade game by its nature.
@TheSamuraiGoomba9 ай бұрын
Baldur's Gate 1 is absolutely a gameplay-forward experience. I understand if Mark doesn't enjoy that time of game, but the vast majority of game time is spent engaging with its systems. Dialogue scrolls as fast as you press the button.
@globalistgamer64189 ай бұрын
All of those games are pretty old now, but in the overall historical timeline, they mostly came out around the time arcades were starting to hit the rocks commercially. Japan had more of a span during which arcades and console RPGs were simultaneously commercially significant forms, but then again things like NES Dragon Quest 2-4 are legitimately challenging games (even if you grind to the level cap in DQ2). BG1 kind was trying to be gameplay first I guess, but it doesn't really do it very well (realtime with pause is a really bad way to try to represent D&D combat and leads to massive focus on kiting over tactical unit placement; the game is also filled with a lot of simple and repetitive encounters, seemingly to pad out time). Even though it probably wasn't intended at development time for the story to be such a large focus, I would say that is the main reason it would be worth playing now - so that you could go into the more story-driven BG2 with a fuller context. If somebody wanted to play a game like that for the gameplay, I would say something like Temple of Elemental Evil or Knights of the Chalice would be much better options.
@TheSamuraiGoomba9 ай бұрын
@@globalistgamer6418 You forgot to mention Dark Sun: Shattered Land. A really great early example of gameplay-focused D&D flavored turn-based combat.
@PeteOliva10 ай бұрын
This is EXACTLY echoing my own personal theory about why the fun has been seeped from games. Oh my gosh, you hit my own thoughts exactly on the nail. Great video! I'm actually stunned at how people these days measure a game's value on how many hours it will take to reach the end. BALONEY! It's about game DENSITY and REPLAYABILITY!
@merthsoft9 ай бұрын
I agree so much on the second point. I feel like a lot of modern games waste my time. But I have always disliked when media is stretched out. I prefer short stories to novels for similar reasons.
@TheElectricUnderground9 ай бұрын
absolutely merth!! Concise and compact media is a fav of mine as well. In games and in film/writing.
@todesziege9 ай бұрын
Quality vs quantity in game design. While arcades forced developers to go after the former, modern games, free of those restraints, are leaning more and more into the latter, cheered on by consumers.
@perlichtman156210 ай бұрын
18:40 Sega solved the timer issue with a compromise that worked for both groups back on the Genesis with Sonic. Have a timer that counts how long you take and rewards you for going quickly (thus raising the skill ceiling) while ditching a timer that ends your play (thus lowering the skill floor). It was a perfect example of inclusive gameplay where both skilled and unskilled players were catered to. That is the ideal - not Pikmin 1.
@Orange_Swirl10 ай бұрын
Bro, it technically does end your play when the timer runs out. Take too long to complete an act, and you get a game over. Still, the timer is quite long, longer than the average player would likely need to beat a stage.
@misharatkevich98089 ай бұрын
It technically DOES end when the timer runs out, but at 10 minutes, you're not likely to ever see the TIME OVER screen unless you're uber-obsessively hunting for every single secret or got lost in Sandopolis 2 in S3K. Now in some ROM hacks that throw very long stages at you, the same 10-minute time limit can be pretty mean.
@Airola10 ай бұрын
Players feel they are entitled to win the game and the game creators cater to that. There's no longer an enjoyable sense of a mystery of an unbeaten game. Players today won't accept a game over and a failure as one of the possible endings of a game story. Back in the day it was part of the challenge to accept that you might never win the game. Getting a bit further than before was a satisfying achievement even though that was still a long way from the end. Today people expect to win the game and that ruins a lot of the sense of mystery games used to have.
@IllusionistsBane10 ай бұрын
Video games are an *experience*, first and foremost. If everything has to adhere to arcade design, we wouldn't have Harvest Moon/Stardew Valley or Thief: The Dark Project. Besides, wasn't there a point about encouraging creativity in the Xenotilt dev interview? How compatible is arcade design with that?
@Mingodough10 ай бұрын
The new Mario game “finally” got rid of its timer for levels. I saw a KZfaq community post of a youtuber dunking on a dude in the comments who said timers were important and everyone was digging on him. So sad
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
oh yes never dare to critique the hot new nintendo game mingo, the nintendo legion will have no mercy lol.
@EngineerSTG10 ай бұрын
Don't forget the first building block question of any home console designed video game these days, how much money can we make from this.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh don't you worry, I talk about that as well ha.
@JohnDavis-vt4ou10 ай бұрын
Arcade games are exist to make money too, my dude. The difference is that the incentives of the players, arcade owners, and game makers all align - you can try out an arcade game for just a quarter (or 100 yen, or whatever). The arcade owners don't keep games around if they don't make money, which means that the game designers need to make something that's as exciting and addictive as possible. The evolutionary pressures on arcade games are much harsher. In other words, arcade games don't make money if people aren't actually playing them. In comparison, the people who make shovelware games have accomplished their goal as soon as you part with your $50 - their incentive is to trick you into buying crap. (The gacha nonsense is another essay.)
@MTVGMSynthCovers10 ай бұрын
my 7 year old son 100%'d Shovel Knight with Plague Knight when he was 6. I think it's a good game and it's fun but it definitely is too easy. He would have me beat bosses for him at first and I would show him that it wasn't that hard, and eventually he just ended up beating the whole thing on his own after starting over. He found all the green coins and unlockables and all that shit. I think it was a great game for him and he loved playing it. but guess what? If he plays an actual retro game like double dragon, ninja gaiden, castlevania, mega man, etc. he doesn't get very far. Gee, I wonder what the reasoning is? He even has a bite of A+ on Super Meat Boy levels. Whaaa???!? isn't that game SUPER HARD ? WHAAAA???? but but but but but but but but it's hard the reviewers told me so and it's brutal and i'm not good at games and oh wait
@dfghj24110 ай бұрын
i haven't played super meat boy, so you are saying it really isn't as hard as everyone says it is? i might give it a try then. i'm not a huge fan of platformers
@MTVGMSynthCovers10 ай бұрын
@@dfghj241i wouldn’t call it easy but I think the thing is, these modern games let you restart and retry over and over and the game design itself is “fair.” Something like ghosts n goblins on NES may not have as many crazy and impressive looking jumps but I’ll be damned if it isn’t a million times harder lol new games are far more forgiving and less punishing. Like I have beaten cuphead. It’s tricky but if you keep trying you’ll get it. I suck ass at ghosts n goblins and ninja gaiden 3
@AbcDefg-zt8xy8 ай бұрын
I think we can also coin the term "content density" for cases where game lasts 100 hours but video game movie lasts only 10 or so
@DungarooTV9 ай бұрын
Simple explanation: games nowadays focus too much on graphics/realism but lack good game play or fun!
@mrpernickety310 ай бұрын
I've been watching KZfaq videos breaking down video game design since 2008. This is the first video in a decade where I was surprised by your insights and genuinely felt that you were and to articulate thoughts I've been having for years. Appreciate the insights!
@shinon_shn10 ай бұрын
I think that there have always been toxic monetisation practices in video game development; the modern equivalent to actually-unfair "quarter munching" gameplay is probably free-to-play mobile games that offer extra tries or faster cooldowns for a fee. On consoles, back in the day, arbitrary difficulty spikes or arcane change-ups in the game mechanics to facilitate the rental market weren't uncommon - and I still believe that there's a place for easier, more approachable games. I can absolutely feel the loss of timers, good scoring systems, and gameplay density though; one of my most played games of all time is NiGHTS into dreams... which by all accounts is pretty easy, but the compelling score ranking system and tight, fun gameplay loop ensure its replayability, and ranking the player based on score *and* completion time offers a good balance between speedrun-type strats and score-attack gameplay. To me, good example of this is Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes, which encourage routing through the levels in a way that achieves the highest score in the shortest completion time rather than just score or time alone. I'm kind of a SEGA-head, but I think that a drop in gameplay density and loss of a timer hurts Bomb Rush Cyberfunk pretty severely in comparison to the original Jet Set Radio; tightly-designed arcade action in an enclosed space offers a more engaging experience than sparse, repetitive open worlds populated by repetitive, boring gameplay objectives. If I lose at JSR, it's because I suck at the core gameplay loop - whereas I've never even died once in BRC, but I didn't finish it because I got bored with the grindy repetition of bland open-world traversal and item hunting. I think there's room on the market for easier games; I'm a big fan of Here Comes Niko, which is a 3D platformer collectathon in which you can't die, but it tightly paces its objectives in enclosed stages rather than diluting them across a massive open world. The traversal is made interesting with movement tech, too, so I guess the conversation there might also include the skill ceiling in the core movement (spam-dashing in Sonic Adventure 1), and stage objective density in discrete levels as opposed to open worlds. Great video, not sure I'm entirely with you on difficulty but your depth of original thought and knowledge on this stuff stands out as always.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
it would seem there is an overlap between mobile games and arcade games, but I actually don't think they are equivalent. The reason why is that the arcade was much more like the movie theater, where the premier of gameplay, graphics, and video games was happening. it was the proving ground from which console games borrowed and copied. In the mobile market however, this is not the case. The mobile market is the dirty corner of gaming where people who have no interest in more premier gaming or literally are stuck on a bus or something, have to go for a quick distraction. There is an overlap in that both of them need to be more compressed in time, but I think arcade credits and microtransactions are worlds apart.
@globalistgamer64189 ай бұрын
I feel like NiGHTS was maybe the last time a pivotal AAA console game bet the farm on score attack gameplay. Really unfortunate that it didn't work out commercially.
@pmintertek9 ай бұрын
So what you are essentially saying is that games needs more personality rather than just a product to satisfy a customer. (It's heavily simplified but I think it's the best way to say it)
@belldrop73659 ай бұрын
It's because while Arcade games were made for kids and young adults to have fun with, modern games are made for dads of broken families. These dads have neither the free time or patience to play challenging games. All they have is the money to keep buying every new game that gets heavily marketed in their face.
@bulb997010 ай бұрын
Your channel is amazing. I’ve only discovered it a couple of months ago, but already found myself listening to this video on my way back from work. For a long time I had a similar opinion since I preferred retro games over modern stuff but couldn’t tell exactly why that is. I’ve just described as “If the game doesn’t put me into the action in the first 5 minutes (whether it’s because of plot exposition, long tutorials or boring tasks) then I lose interest and put it away”. This explanation puts into words precisely what I hate so much about modern game design.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh that's so cool to hear! i love to imagine what people are up to when they are watching or listening to my vids ha. I like the idea that you get off your workday and pop on some electric underground :-) I also work a 9 to 5 myself so I know how that is ha.
@AlbertoMonroy-lq2vw2 ай бұрын
Please make a video of modern games that are an exception and actually worth playing. Please.
@claudiosacchi372010 ай бұрын
Game density is the main reason i play retro games (arcade, Genesis, snes and PC engine). I love everything about those games starting from the graphics to the non stop action. I enjoy modern games mostly for the technical showcase but tbh i get bored very quickly with side missions, collectibles, upgrades and many hours spent just going from point A to B on the map.
@markguyton286810 ай бұрын
I don't know, at the rate the AAA industry is going, calling something a "quarter eater" might be a compliment compared to the "paycheck eaters" that most popular titles are today. That aside, I think it might be more of games just being able to be made bigger. More room means more filler, more filler means less fine tuned game-play. How we communicate also matters since in the past, most people learned about an arcade being good usually from a friend who liked said game. Now we can see a mass audience of people we don't know review a single game and we normally accept if a game is "good or bad" based on those mass reviews. Then again, the market makes the decision on how a game is made, and if people want easier games, easier games are gonna be made... look at all the Harvest Moon clones on the indie market...
@dukeofhmph634810 ай бұрын
Speaking of which, even in the case of Harvest Moon style games you can see the same trends that Mark talks about. In the older games from the 90s and early 2000s, if you wanted to accomplish one of the primary objectives and marry someone you were effectively running on a timer, since if you were too slow then your rival would beat you to it. As a result, you couldn't just take it at a really slow pace, decisions became more urgent and meaningful, and routing mattered. The more recent games and the clones dropped this and became a lot less interesting since major objectives became impossible to fail.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
ha no kidding lol! yeah i bought ff16 brand new for my review and it was soooooo expensive I was shocked. And all in all is that game really more valuable than games of the past that cost $50, (blessed ninja gaiden 2 for example), absolutely not. Man I should do a vid on game prices because it's such an interesting topic, but I strongly strongly disagree that they should be 70 bucks or more. I think they should be going down in price honestly.
@markguyton286810 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground You would think so, but you know if they did they would just pump it up again with micro-transactions.
@rawlenyanzi668610 ай бұрын
I think arcade design disappeared because the real-world constraints that made it necessary no longer exist. Back then, you had: - Limited storage space - Only physical distribution was possible - Making money via quarters - The need to turn players over so that no one can hog the machine - You can’t play at home Today, you have: - Gigabytes worth of storage - Digital distribution as a norm, incentivizing rushed development - Microtransactions (the only piracy-proof income stream) - Playing at home or on the go, so no need to turn players over quickly The technological landscape is far different from that of the 1980s, and thus game design has changed to reflect that. That said, arcade design is *perfect* for more casual experiences that don’t eat up your time yet still give you a fun experience (Shredder’s Revenge is a good modern example of this.)
@KingKrouch10 ай бұрын
Playing shmups like Cotton, Aleste, Thunder Force, and Gunbird, action games like Devil May Cry, or even rhythm games (Bemani and the the Project DIVA games comes to mind) feels like such a breath of fresh air with everything wrong with modern gaming. I like something that I can just pick up and play without having to worry about investing a massive amount of time into something that might not respect it. Would suggest to check out fan translations or the game library of more niche systems (like the Sega Saturn or PC Engine), so cool seeing older games that never really made it state-side. Especially if you don’t deal with culture shock.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh yes playing shmups and experiencing their rich gameplay makes playing bloated modern games really hard to tolerate ha
@TheSamuraiGoomba9 ай бұрын
Rhythm games are definitely one of those genres with a strong focus on gameplay. It's pretty hard to make a cinematic movie out of tapping buttons at the right time lol. Unfortunately, that genre is also overly monetized by dlc drip-feeding songs.
@TheNameIsSR3 ай бұрын
Another thing is the importance if a strong 30 second gameplay loop, which a lot of AAA modern games just seem to lack.
@txenog10 ай бұрын
As a guy in his 30s who started playing games on my Gameboy Classic, then went on to consoles and ended up being a PC gamer, I can relate to this video. I remember playing Super Ghouls and Ghosts with my neighbor on their SNES and I kid you not games with this kind of difficulty simply aren't being made anymore. The whole market now is oversatisfied with dull, but aggressively monetized experiences which are watered down so much that literally any idiot can beat these modern games. You could say the industry sold out to casual "gamers" while ditching the true hardcore gamers who had established their business in the first place. That's why games aren't fun to us anymore.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh yes shout out to the classic gameboy! That had a lot over overlooked gems that were really densely made because of how tiny that little GB kart was. One of them that's a lot of fun that gets looked over is the gameboy version of mega man, that sucker I spent hours battling against. it has this crazy boss rush at the end even ha.
@Daniel__Nobre10 ай бұрын
Yes, they make them very easy until getting to that paywall. Because they want everyone to become addicted, but then the paywall means you lose independently of your skill (that’s the all perverse scheme - they make money from you losing, but without escape - skills or training means nothing from that point on). In reality we are the product. The games are playing us actually, not the other way around.
@khaosklub10 ай бұрын
I dunno about super ghouls and ghosts. those games always felt more like memorization than being particularly skilled. there certainly was skill involved, but most of the difficulty was from sucker punches and not knowing how the level is going to move. like castlevania, you didn't have too many mobility options, so you had to know what was coming in advance.
@thewhyzer9 ай бұрын
I'd recommend Wings of Vi if you think modern games are "too easy".
@sungjin0089 ай бұрын
Racing games are even sadder. This is because most industries focus on simulation rather than arcade. What's annoying is SEGA, Namco did not announce a new Outrun, Ridge Racer, but personified it. For god's sake, Ridge Racer's rival, Cruis'n returned in 2017, Hot Wheels racing game returned in 2021, and LEGO racing game and F-Zero returned this year. Outrun's rival, Top Gear(Top Racer in Japan) returns next year. Even San Francisco Rush might return. I saw that Digital Eclipse and Atari were interested in San Francisco Rush. If you want to know the problems with racing games, watch Raycevick's I Love Racing Games, They Suck! It's a great video.
@duduoson527810 ай бұрын
I think you're making too many generalizations based on your gaming preferences. In other words, none of the things you're talking about apply to the genres I play. What I mean is that you should look beyond the issues that your beloved genre experiences when talking about gaming as a whole.
@coffeedude10 ай бұрын
What genres do you play?
@mdunce661810 ай бұрын
that's this guy's ENTIRE shtick. Make incredibly broad generalizations and indirectly call people that don't enjoy this very specific type of game idiots and pretending that anytime any game of that type (Arcade style action games) gets poorly reviewed it's because the review is dumb and stupid. (For instance, Final Vendetta was brought up, and he completely ignores how the game had MASSIVE issues at launch so no, it wasn't just reviews being bad players, the game was kinda shit) It's why I largely stopped watching this guy's content. Used to like it but he has gotten extremely preachy and obnoxious.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
Because his preferences are getting destroyed or poorly reviewed. He’s talking about action games. As an action game fan I don’t like it when they try to turn my game into a rpg
@duduoson527810 ай бұрын
@@coffeedude RPG and shooters mostly, also sims like Dwarf Fortress. I'm also a fan of the old school RTS genre but its decline is a separate topic.
@duduoson527810 ай бұрын
@@magicjohnson3121 I can understand that, watered down RPG mechanics in shooters aren't my kinda thing either.
@Surgicaldamage10 ай бұрын
Developers had to make a sale on the spot, with competing sights and sounds on the spot while tons of other machines were competing simultaneously in the same room/building. This video has points that are so relevant.👍🏿
@V3ntilator9 ай бұрын
The demand for story is also to blame for ruining gameplay. 90% of games should be games, and not overpriced movies. It's ok with 10% story games like in the past.
@FrMZTsarmiral9 ай бұрын
I do agree with your most of the points in this video but I think there's something that's important to mention for this topic regarding traditional scoring systems and timers: Not all arcade games handled scoring systems/timers in a way that was polished enough to captured the attention of the playerbase, with plenty of scoring systems being overlooked over the 1CC as the more appealing "side-objective" outside of shmups. Actually integrating those 2 aspects into a game in a way that makes it worth the development time is easier said than done. Something like a shmup is simpler to code and to get all assets working than most genres, so there is more development time and resources available for polishing a scoring system while something like DMC might need more time getting all the weapons and moves to work and feel fun to use. By this I don't mean that scoring systems or timers are worthless but that developers might opt for flashier "side objectives" to incentivize skillful play that are easier to implement/more likely to get the attention of most players instead of traditional scoring systems. Using DMC as an example, both Kamiya and Itsuno love or worked on arcade games so it's likely they're aware of the appeal and purpose of a scoring system, however they might have found it more suitable to go for a different take over traditional scoring systems, with something easier to understand and that still accomplishes the main goal of a scoring system (incentivize skilled play, make the player feel good about performing well) while also giving the game its own identity. tl;dr I do agree that games need to incorporate more elements from the arcade era (lives/rewards for avoiding death, higher challenge, some type of incentive to take risks and play better or score) to make modern games less dull but traditional scoring systems/timers might not always make sense for some projects and implementing it in a way that's actually worth the effort is not simple.
@postingfrombed9 ай бұрын
it's not just action games that have changed. i was always an RPG fan as a kid, but i cant play the new ones. i cant really articulate why
@mostverticalproductions480810 ай бұрын
I grew up with arcade titles since they always managed to scratch my itch for wanting something that was short sweet and full of action. I still play games like The Punisher, NBA Jam and Dodonpachi years later. I find myself enjoying these games even more as I get older.
@ominouspigeonmaster157110 ай бұрын
I don't think either game philosophies are necessarily bad, we're just starved of one side. You do make a case for why some formulas that have been stigmatized as outdated can be great and missing additions, but I can't help but think you're throwing other things under the bus unnecessarily in places, to get that across. Shovel Knight imo is absolutely fine. The gaming philosophies it uses are little different to the likes of, say Gunstar Heroes, in that it has unlimited continues and no time limit. Yet Ive never heard of anyone complain that Gunstar Heroes has neither. I do think the reason scoring fell out of touch between arcade to consoles was because people challenged eachothers scores in the arcades. Having the highest score was a bragging right. But it became much harder to directly compare scores, when you'd have to visit friends houses to be confident that they were being honest. By comparison, if your score was legendary then it would remain in the arcade machine, for others to witness. I do agree that they're a great system and I also don't agree with people that consider it archaic, but I don't think every game needs them. Shmups and auto scrollers, as far as I'm aware never fell out of touch with using the points system; makes sense when their's hardly a point speedrunning those kinds of games. And 24:00, what are you talking about? lol the entire new super mario bros series has timers AND points. I don't think Wonder does, but it's incorrect to say ALL later Mario games. Heck the DK Country series, which is what you're showing footage of during that segment is what many people point to, when they say what they wished modern games were like. I do agree on some points, I just think your views are a bit rigid, no disrespect intended.
@gamecomparisons10 ай бұрын
This is very well stated, and why I have said for decades that I blame gamers, consumers really, for the death of Arcades, Sega, etc. They never wanted a challenge, or to be pushed out of their comfort zone.
@Mtaalas9 ай бұрын
I read that "Easy mode is essential and I shouldn't have to defend it" article and god damn.. .that guy "I can't play souls games because they're so difficult, youre gate keeping and toxic!!!" So don't play them? There's nothing more privileged than thinking you have some unalienable right to be catered by everyone creating games to create games that fit just for you and your needs. There's billion games out there, go play something else. If souls isn't for you, it isn't for you. Accessibility is completely different conversationa bout color blindness, different language options, ability to remap controls, audio cues etc. difficulty is NOT one of those accessibility features. ARGH... self indulged and privileged people, ho think world runs around them make me so angry-
@johnconnorpliskin718410 ай бұрын
I love JRPGs and Western RPGs but I do not like just how many modern games take those leveling systems to artificially increase playtime in their games that do not need them. Take out the interesting character building and roleplaying, and all you have is a waste of time. Speaking of timers and scoring, I love the original Dead Rising. I recently completed my first “Perfect Run” i.e. best ending and all survivors saved/psychopaths defeated. This series is another example of how future games in the series, while still fun, are missing that secret sauce of mastering the gameplay. Once the timer and scoring are gone, what else is there to make it stand out from other zombie games?
@truxardus433110 ай бұрын
Long, slow games have always existed, especially on PC, and I've always enjoyed them as well as short, intense action games. The problem is that for some reason we just can't have both. People who style themselves as "hardcore gamers" have a meltdown if they have to select the easy option, or if the game demands that you play the game on its own terms and master the mechanics. The problem you are going to run into here is that the majority of people who play video games want an interactive movie. There's no getting around that. Thankfully things aren't like they were in the 360 era and we have indie games catering to more niche tastes. As a side note, I don't know about timers though, man. Has anyone ever run out of time in Super Mario Bros other than that one maze castle that you can just look up the solution for? I think the timer is genre dependent.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
Sin and Punishment, Final Fight are two games I know where the timer actually matters.
@magicjohnson312110 ай бұрын
The problem is that PC and console/arcade gaming used to be separate but when Xbox 360 and PS3 came around I noticed people started to complain that they’re basically a PC.
@quadpad_music10 ай бұрын
Yeah, it's like Mark completely forgot about Wizardry or Final Fantasy. An issue with bias, perhaps?
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Yes exactly, I dont' have a huge problem with narrative focued games, if that was considered a style or sub-genre of the medium. But what we have is that critics and players at large have decided that this style of game is default and superior to more focused arcade style games. Look at poor wanted dead's reception. Also if you go back and read reviews of games like poor spikeout and godhand, it's clear that western critics especially have no idea how to evaluate mechanical game design at all ha. Even with something like DMC, all the reviews of that series are basically critics just parroting the idea that the combat is good (which it is in a lot of ways) but with no actual basis or understanding as to why.
@pilouuuu10 ай бұрын
And what about long and punishing games? I think that's the difference. Games nowadays are long and easy.
@MILDMONSTER123410 ай бұрын
DMC is about skill expression not efficiency. People are always gonna find combo videos of doing cool stuff (even if it’s ineffective) more interesting then just doing optimal combos for a fast time. Because of this dmc is never gonna catch on as a popular speed run game outside of dmc1 which is designed around speed
@DewShick10 ай бұрын
one of the relatively popular things coming from arcade stuff now is rhythm games with their scoring systems, autoscrolling and good gameplay density, they always have something to offer for the players with any level of skill. these games (beat saber, stepmania, osu) are driven by user-created content and deal with the difficulty curve problem by dividing the levels by hardness so that experts can play their expert++ along with newbies playing novice, and though there are some tools like bulletML, shmupmaker or danmakufu, it seems like there's no simple single platform to create/share/sort/rate levels easily and see the scores/replays. to me that look like a nice compromise between classic and modern difficulty and a good way to make an evolving game with a long lasting community, some opportunities for experiments with design, short concentrated game sessions with no saves and appeal to both skilled and newbie players. precision platformers like n++ or super mario maker are close to that model. even for the other genres the user-created content trend is kind of there, with popular long lasting games like minecraft or skyrim seem to be more of a mod/content platform than just a game, so it's easy to imagine something like this for shmups with different leaderboards for different pluggable scoring systems.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
Oh yeah rhythm games are an arcade staple! Yes they are def bred with the arcade mentality in a lot of ways. I personally don't play them just because they are so close to shmups I feel like I'd rather just play a shmup at that point ha, but they are cool and I do respect them a lot. It's crazy how technical they can get too.
@DewShick10 ай бұрын
@@TheElectricUnderground yes! and I think they while being similar do some things in a manner that is more appealing to wider audience with respect to the current model of distribution, like the amount of content or managing difficulty, learning curve, and they are kind of more approachable. though the shmups' levels offer much more choice and are much trickier to make, it seems interesting to see some shmup with mods, basic level editor, tons of downloadable levels (assuming the game is one uninterrupted level with fixed difficulty, maybe harder and shorter one) with separate scores for each etc.
@TheSamuraiGoomba9 ай бұрын
Rhythm games are like the offshoot cousin of shmups imo. Each song is a complex, multi-layer "stage" that you have to slowly unwrap and conquer.
@Humdeeheyyahawikiahaye3 ай бұрын
It depends on what you use gaming for. I play games to relax, so having some guy tell me “hurr you choose to play your single player game on normal” comes off as insulting to me. Because my hobbies like elsewhere, and I don’t consider gaming a part of my character. Sometimes I just wanna chill and play but in most cases I’d probably rather draw or paint The issue is that people can’t seem to be the change they want in the world anymore Instead of ignoring games they don’t like and buying ones that do - or rather making their own and bringing about change they’d rather demand devs who’re doing just that “making what they want” cater to their tastes in specific But if the current people up there don’t know what they’re doing, it’s up to YOU if you truly know what’s “good gameplay” to step out and show them how it’s done, and inspire your compatriots That’s how the art community works at least, long as you stay the f away from crapholes like X, TikTok and 4chinless
@Esirre10 ай бұрын
This is a take I've never actually heard before but makes the most sense. Essentially the fact that it was coin-op engendered better game design . More often people take the opposite approach. Honestly when I was a kid we used to think many games from 8 and 16 bit era were 'too hard' but those same games today (so many years later) provide 100 x more a rewarding experience than modern games do. Catering to skilled players is really the better model to go with in game design.
@TheElectricUnderground10 ай бұрын
I m super happy to hear that this video has helped introduce these ideas to you! Yes it is something that should be talked about more, but ironically a lot of KZfaqrs and reviewers themselves don't see the connections back to the arcade
@docsavage492110 ай бұрын
Ah, but while I agree the games were harder in the 8-16 bit era, we also had our share of "cheats". Think Konomi code. I cop to only ever beating Double Dragon 3 the Rosetta Stone by cheaping extra lives off a 2 player game because of a weird bug that transfers lives from player 2 onto player 1 if you kill them.
@CursedShinobiClown8 ай бұрын
Have you not played dmc1? That games ranking system is literally all about fast times. No one plays dmc 3-5 for efficiency they play for skill expression and freedom, making it more like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta and making it about optimization destroys the entire point of the franchise. The fact that Ultrakill wasn’t mentioned at all is absurd