Why Couldn't Men Live in the Undying Lands? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth
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2 жыл бұрынThe mortality of Men was a gift, though to most mortals it almost seemed ironic… for how could death be a gift when they would have to leave so many things and loved ones behind? It comes at no surprise that Men would start to yearn for the Undying Lands, to leave Middle-Earth forever and to live amongst the Elves and Valar. Would they be immortal and free from death by living in Valinor? Why were they banned from travelling to the Undying Lands? And what terrible fate would await the Man's body and spirit if they could somehow circumvent this ban?
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Check out my latest video!: "Why did the Valar take so Long to attack Morgoth? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth"
• Why did the Valar take...
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@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
Would you prefer the fate of the Elves or that of Men? And do you think that Men's fear of death was unfounded? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
@JacobSmith-rh2sr 2 жыл бұрын
Elves definitely had it better. Live forever amongst the gods in a land uncorrupted away from chaos and turmoil
@jeffhallam2004 2 жыл бұрын
Prefer the gift of men
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
mhm true, though immortality would probably get tiring eventually
@skogkatt2920 2 жыл бұрын
I'd probably prefer the fate of the Numenoreans (if I could choose), as they should have been. Mortality is what makes time so precious, because we only have a finite amount of time to accomplish and achieve everything we want to in life. A general lifespan probably couldn't encompass everything we'd want to do (at least, not if you're a massive procrastinator like me), but a lifespan three times as long would more than likely give us ample time to pursue everything we'd like to in life. Immortality seems like it would eventually be boring and could also be painful if you were living in Middle Earth and had to live to see many of your mortal friends die whilst you lived on (although that would also be the case with an extended lifespan I suppose, but not to the same extent).
@Mannyfreshkidd66 2 жыл бұрын
Because they may corrupt it. Dwarves and elves were different and awoke first. Makes sense to me that the most mortal of the races wouldn’t be allowed in
@steveford8999 2 жыл бұрын
The conflict between body and spirit is how you end up with....Gollum. He both hated his life and feared to leave it.
@Bramandin 2 жыл бұрын
sounds a lot like me
@redxsage 2 жыл бұрын
The very focus of corruption by *Morgoth.*
@Elia-fn8jv 2 жыл бұрын
You just descrived myself....
@SantomPh 2 жыл бұрын
the Ring gave him life and refused him death, he lived so long he wanted to die but wanted to exist as well.
@UnholyWrath3277 2 жыл бұрын
I always wondered what happened to gollums spirit. The valar reject saruman but gollum was corrupted by the ring he didn't originally set out to be evil. Had he not found the ring he most likely would've been a pretty normal Hobbit. He played a pivotal role in destroying the ring even if he didn't mean to do it but again literally anybody in his position would've fallen to the same level. I always wondered if he would be forgiven
@NoPantsBaby 2 жыл бұрын
Out of context Tolkien: "He would grow soon to contempt his manhood and hate those more richly endowed."
@The1980Philip 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I caught that phallic imagery too.
@DefecTec 2 жыл бұрын
Lmao dudes that become trans wishing they were a woman
@VincentGonzalezVeg 2 жыл бұрын
@@DefecTec it's like "Where's the vagina" It's so weird This Name is too epic to change
@tyrlant2189 2 жыл бұрын
@@DefecTec not 'dudes' they are called 'freaks'
@shadowdugify 2 жыл бұрын
And 'condemn his manhood'
@The_Wandering_Nerd 2 жыл бұрын
What gift did you get from Eru Iluvatar? Valar: We got to sing creation into existence! And we're immortal. Ents: We got immortality too, and amazing strength! Elves: We got immortality and a holy land to live in after Middle-earth gets messed up partly because of us! Men: I got a rock.
@TheBayzent 2 жыл бұрын
Men: I got a rock, which I can't fully explore and settle because if I move on the wrong direction, then Eru gets mad and starts sinking parts of said rock...sooo...you guys sacrificing elven children to Melkor tomorrow?
@echidnanatsuki882 2 жыл бұрын
Men: We also have the potential to create super advanced technology and immortality serums if given enough time.
@yseson_ 2 жыл бұрын
Men got to transcend the world for some greater purpose. Maybe it was the failing of Eru Iluvatar that man did not appreciate or understand the significance of his reward at the end of his life
@Stephen2153 2 жыл бұрын
@@yseson_ terribly communicated by a being who is supposedly infallible. Exactly my problem with his real world parallel.
@risingphoenix9800 2 жыл бұрын
That rock becomes a an eternal MOUNTAIN
@billvolk4236 2 жыл бұрын
It's pretty funny how even Manwe admits that part of the reason men can't live in Aman is because he and his followers would treat them like vermin. It really helps to flesh out some characters who are too often seen as stuffy and too perfect to relate to.
@whiteeye3453 2 жыл бұрын
And another reason why j think men are weaker
@Abdullah-wi1iy Жыл бұрын
where does he say that??
@Raz.C 2 жыл бұрын
Technically, Ar-Pharazon and those of his men who landed in Valinor did achieve immortality. Just not in the way they had hoped. They weren't killed by the landslide that covered them, but rather imprisoned there until the ending of the world. So TECHNICALLY, Sauron was honest with them when he told them that they could seize immortality by travelling to Aman...
@andythecrimson8877 2 жыл бұрын
How about Tuor?
@Raz.C 2 жыл бұрын
@@andythecrimson8877 What about him? Did Sauron talk to him about Valinor?
@Ancientneutrality Жыл бұрын
@@Raz.C no but he did go and receive the gift of immortality
@Raz.C Жыл бұрын
@@Ancientneutrality The whole point of the post was about how Sauron was- technically- honest with the Numenorian king when he told him that immortality could be seized by travelling to Valinor. Bringing up Tuor either ignores or fails to recognise the who point of the comment.
@blade3253 Жыл бұрын
Nerd
@novacorponline 2 жыл бұрын
Iluvatar: "Death is not a curse, it is a gift." Man: "How is it a gift?" Iluvatar: "I designed you so that if you didn't die on your own you would basically torture yourself to death eventually. Thus, your natural death is a mercy and blessing." Man: "I'm not sure you understand what a gift is..."
@Bramandin 2 жыл бұрын
Yea, seems dumb if you put it that way. It seems like a big part of the explanation of how all of this works was left out. Ideas of reincarnation and spiritual progression through numerous lives, would give this whole story a much nicer look. inb4 "that's not mentioned anywhere in Tolkiens writings", sure dude, you win. Have a nice day.
@infinitetroll03 2 жыл бұрын
Under these principles we understand man as it is now. Our limitations are what give us desire to progress. The elves live in harmony but also stagnation. Humans live to make life brighter for their offspring. We grow generationally. It is our nature to fight entropy itself. So to be immortal is a curse upon man. Because with death conquered medicine stagnates. Technology stagnates. And in the end the sun is not eternal. We meet our end with heat and death. So we find that our deaths are that which spurs us to change. To adapt. To understand everything we can. Unlike the elves we dont live in harmony. We combat and force nature to submit. And I find a true and honest beauty in that fight.
@rimanm6934 2 жыл бұрын
@@infinitetroll03 nahh it was even simpler. It not death that was gift, but what happen next. Mostly all VAlar and Mayar when entered Arda they couldnt get out of it. And so are elves. BAsicaly VAlar, MAyar and Evles bound to world even if they die(lost physical body) they just turned into ghost. Elves become ghosts in MAndos Hall. And Valar or MAyar could regain physical form with time. But only Men when die could get to Iluvutar realm where MAyar and Valar came originally into created by them world. So basicaly men are just pasenger in this world, they dont belong to her. It was gift cause even MAnve or Morgot could return to Iluvatar realm untill end of World. BAsicaly they all chained their and there is prophesy that elves, mayar and valar would reunite with men in Iluvatar realm and would create secong song: Beter World without Melkor discord. Basicaly men get first from party other would join them later. But most men afraid of that cause for them death was jump into uknown and so they didnt know they would just basicaly go to Heaven where Valar came from And men forget that cause they lost faith and conection with Iluvator especialy late Numenor.
@durshurrikun150 2 жыл бұрын
@@rimanm6934 Maybe the gods should have actually visited the men frequently to prevent faith from wavering? Or Eru should have explained carefully what death entails to men and correct the lies Melkor spread?
@rimanm6934 2 жыл бұрын
@@durshurrikun150 they kinda did. People in First Era knew. For example Hurin when captured by Melkor said: you have no power over me beyond circle of this world. Melkor was angry and wanted scared him saying: there is nothing beyond circle of this world. Which Hurin didnt belive that why Melkor tormented him instead. Cause if there was nothing where Melkor came form than? Ancient people were more spiritual and more conected to Eru. He was so inpresed by them he gave Numenorian extended life: 200 year regular and 300-500 Elros Dynasty. But people are easier to influance. It not even fear of death but they got so much power they became too atached to world they didnt wont live it. Even though because they so powerfull they wasnt suposed lived so long. For example Numenorian were so strong Sauron forces just run aways when saw Ar-Pharazon army. Vanity and pride is l what lead people stray. They worshiped Eru directly. But forgot that all. How Eru esle should have explain that? They were so strounge that even Valar couldnt stop them so Eru directly intervined and realised he gave people too much power and they strayed too much. So longlivity was taken away. And only few reagain it. Faith wavered long before fear of death. It was selfishness. They knew gods exist and knew Eru exist. Coruption and desire for more power that wavered faith, long before that. Also that doesnt mean men were evil.) Elves before them did even more bad stuff for jewels.) Both elves and men and even valar had their flawes. Only seems Eru was perfect.
@user_____M 2 жыл бұрын
"How dare they refuse the gift? Time to nuke them from orbit!" -Eru
@cr90captain89 2 жыл бұрын
"tactically dropped water bomb incoming"- eru illuvatar
@blackmage665 2 жыл бұрын
I mean, if Eru killed them all, they would promptly see what the gift they got actually was I guess.
@justinallen2408 2 жыл бұрын
@@blackmage665 exactly and also they never say the journey ends in death but is simply the start for men's journey
@justinallen2408 2 жыл бұрын
@@blackmage665 for men are favored by eru illuvatar
@billvolk4236 2 жыл бұрын
You know you're good at picking out gifts when you give the same thing as a reward and also as a punishment.
@Mary.R. 2 жыл бұрын
Oh, they don't?? There goes my plan of running around on the green fields of Valinor, enjoying some delicious Valinorean ice cream.
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
😂😂
@mikekochendorfer7965 2 жыл бұрын
I just want to enjoy some elvish strange.
@nicholasmaude6906 2 жыл бұрын
@@mikekochendorfer7965 Or hot Elvish babes😂.
@generaljimmies3429 2 жыл бұрын
@@nicholasmaude6906 "He would grow soon to condemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed." ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
@darkmathsamport3694 2 жыл бұрын
Or a moldy bread (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞
@waltonsmith7210 2 жыл бұрын
The fading of the elves who remain in middle earth is a pretty shitty fate too.
@kebabmega6349 2 жыл бұрын
They can just leave Middle Earth and go to Aman though
@subliminalfalllenangel2108 Жыл бұрын
@@kebabmega6349 but not every elves can reach Aman
@nicknaylor9895 2 жыл бұрын
Sympathetic to men. The elves revolt and screw up constantly, and the Valar forgive them over and over. Men suffer and are corrupted by a Maiar (who should be the Valar’s problem), and their greatest civilization is destroyed and the survivors are left to fight Sauron, who they’re not even capable of killing.
@chriswilder9719 2 жыл бұрын
Same. The valar are extremely biased towards men in favor of elves. Manwe said only if a half elf came before him asking for aid against morgoth would he go to war. Then told said half elf if he didn't choose to be an elf he would kill him for being a mortal who dared set foot in his holy land. The valar wouldn't go to war for the sake of man yet they went to war for the sake of the elves. Manwe even got a chewing out by Eru for delaying the war for so long and placing conditions for the valar to go to war. Saying if he truly knew his mind he would have gone to war knowing he would fix everything for the war would have been just in saving the mortals from morgoth. Also as you said they made men deal with sauron when the istari could have beaten him. Hell tolkien even states in one of his letters Gandalf could have forced saurons will from the ring thus extremely weaking him. There are multiple beings the valar could have sent to deal with sauron yet didn't.
@sr71silver 2 жыл бұрын
@@chriswilder9719 regarding Gandalf and the Ring did Tolkien say that he WOULD have succeeded or was it only a possibility? I'm guessing there would be severe consequences for failing. Also how weakened are we talking. Is it close to the level of power loss from destroying the Ring? Or is it more like losing an "arm?"
@chriswilder9719 2 жыл бұрын
@@sr71silver Tolkien said he would have succeeded. The catch would have been a good lord worse than any dark lord. Gandalf would have made the penalty for any broken law severe and the standard for goodness would be close to unattainable. To the point sauron would seem like a good trade off. And it would have had been the same as if it was destroyed. He would have been purged from the ring and his connection to it severed
@level9drow856 2 жыл бұрын
Men are Eru Iluvitar's "favorite" indeed. Isn't it obvious?
@nicknaylor9895 2 жыл бұрын
@@level9drow856 also if death is really a gift, why is death the punishment for a mortal stepping foot into Valinor? They were gonna kill Earandil until they decided he’d be counted as an elf since he was half Noldor.
@mrmacura3421 2 жыл бұрын
The fate of Men isn't necessarily the less desirable as Tolkien wrote that by time even the elves would envy them for not having to endure age after age of the world. Also Men will play an important role in the second music of the Ainur whereas the Elves may completely vanish when Arda is reforged because they are so strongly bound to it
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, longterm the immortality of the Elves would surely grow tiresome
@thecpt6265 2 жыл бұрын
irl 100yo people wish for death, and their lives are great. You can imagine how depressing a numenorean living 200 years or so in middle earth right next to sauron and the witch king, let alone elves living thousands of years. You'd go utterly mad
@enderman_of_d00m24 Жыл бұрын
I think there in lies the point Tolkien wrote for the two races. they both have something to envy each other for, and think the other doesn't appreciate their amazing gift Elves think Men don't appreciate that they get to experience the world in a short blip of excitement, adventure and curiosity, and that having a finite lifespan where their spirits aren't tied to the world means they get to enjoy the lives they lead much more Men think Elves don't appreciate how immortality means they never have to leave everything they've come to love behind, and how much they love this world, and if only they could spend more time with it instead of succumbing to the wiles of old age, disease or battle And then you have the Dwarves and Ents, just looking at these two from an inbetween spot
@enderman_of_d00m24 Жыл бұрын
@@thecpt6265 this is why Elrond desperately didn't want Arwin to go with Aragorn. Because regardless of her choice, both of them would suffer greatly If she remains an immortal Elves, she'd get to watch her love become old and die, along with her son, and their children, and everyone else around her, and she'd mourn and weep eternally as she witnesses everything mortal wither as she does not, cursed to wander through a world that eternally changes around her. you can see how Elrond would feel about his daughter going through such a terrible kind of suffering And if she becomes a mortal woman, she'd get to live and die with Aragorn, and Elrond would never get to see his daughter...ever again And for an immortal Elf, there is no worse thing to happen than to witness your child grow old and die when you do not
@mrmacura3421 Жыл бұрын
@@enderman_of_d00m24 Yes, but I would leave out the ents. While Tolkien seems to have been unsure about their nature at first he later made it pretty clear that they were not among the "children" but spirits bound to earthly forms like the eagles.
@tathemrelag3123 2 жыл бұрын
If there's going to be a discussion on which is better, the Gift of Men or the Gift of Elves, I think the best person to ask would be Arwen. Her last words to Aragorn before he died were: "But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." Sure, the Silmarillion states that the Elves and even the Valar envy the mortality of Men, but Men envy the _immortality_ of the Elves and the Valar. And seeing as Arwen is the only individual in Tolkien's Legendarium to have actually experienced _both_ and given her opinion on the matter, I'd say she's the closest thing we have to an expert on the topic.
@ArJay1688 2 жыл бұрын
Before Arwen, there was Elros, her uncle, who also chose mortality, but he welcomed and embraced the gift. Probably because he's just willing to surrender to the will of Eru without any question?
@ellerj641 Жыл бұрын
Arwen was not the only one. Luthien was the first. Half elven, half Maia. Then chose a mortal life with Beren. Elros and Elrond's parents, Earendil and Elwing, chose next. They were both half elven. But they grew at the rate of mortal men and most likely would have had a mortal lifespan (considering the story Tolkien wrote, that may or may or not be cannon, of one of the elf and men relationships, all the descendants after were all mortals with elven blood in them). In a way, they lived a mortal life among the elves. Elwing chose to be an elf. Earendil was originally going to choose to be mortal, but instead chose to be an elf for the sake of his wife. Then Elros chose. Considering what he and his brother had to go through from a very young age, I think starting at two years old, I don't blame him for not wanting to keep lingering in Middle Earth with his trauma and knowing what the elves had done in the first age and before that. He decided to live the rest of his life in peace and then move on.
@enderman_of_d00m24 Жыл бұрын
@@ellerj641 Can't imagine what it was like for Elros to setup the Kingdom of Numenor. Must've been stressful, even for one such as him
@mariapazgonzalezlesme 2 жыл бұрын
On my opinion about inmortality, this is what Captain Teaune, Keeper of the Pirate's Law said this to Jack. *"It's now about living forever, Jackie. The trick is living with **_yourself_** forever."*
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
Such an awesome quote!
@redxsage 2 жыл бұрын
Shoot! That part's _EASY!_ _'I loves me some ME!'_
@jacksonpettit4690 2 жыл бұрын
Hide the rum
@mussardlucien6355 2 жыл бұрын
Well if the whole World is going to disappear someday. And if the elves and their spirit are "bound" to it, they will also disappear one day. So ... they are not truly immortal. Their destiny is to live ... and disappear forever with the World itself, which is also a curse. If the human spirit goes elsewhere when they leave their flesh, (we don't know where) it might actually be better.
@OceanHedgehog 2 жыл бұрын
Yep, and the beings of the Undying Lands came to envy Men for this very reason.
@KateeAngel 2 жыл бұрын
Eternal existence would seem more like a curse, to be honest.... Although I like the twist in your idea,: the ones thought to be immortal are actually not and the ones thought to be mortal are really immortal
@LordEsel88 2 жыл бұрын
I read somewhere that they would be able to leave the world after it had ended. Men could "leave early" as it were, but the elves had to wait until the end of the world to leave.
@runevi 2 жыл бұрын
The Tolkiengateway has this listed as "serial longevity" precisely for this reason.
@ArJay1688 2 жыл бұрын
Yes it is the very reason why the Valar and Elves envy Men yet Men also envy them.
@c.ladimore1237 2 жыл бұрын
reminds me of a quote from interview with the vampire: Armand: Do you know how few vampires have the stamina for immortality? How quickly they perish of their own will? The world changes, we do not. Therein lies the irony that finally kills us
@phughett213ify 2 жыл бұрын
Very well said, great reference.
@louisbrown4620 2 жыл бұрын
Ah, Lestat! Loves to poke his finger in Armand’s eye whenever he can.
@SantomPh 2 жыл бұрын
the irony is that Lestat (apart from killing for blood) is a lover of life, enjoying things like music, wine, dancing and women. Things that are always around and have entertained people for eternity
@tat3179 2 жыл бұрын
@@SantomPh in the end, if said vampire still have the same brains like ours, he will soon tire of life and chose death.
@kalinystazvoruna8702 2 жыл бұрын
To quote the 10th Doctor, "I'm old enough to know that a longer life isn't always a better one. In the end, you just get tired. Tired of the struggle, tired of losing everyone that matters to you, tired of watching everything turn to dust. If you live long enough, Lazarus, the only certainty left is that you'll end up alone." From The Lazarus Experiment".
@charleslathrop9743 2 жыл бұрын
People don't realize that the nature of the elves actually makes them profoundly limited in many ways. They don't change things. They don't advance. In many ways they lack the same level of free will which humans enjoy. Humans are meant for a higher purpose, that's why Eru wants them to leave Arda. They appear to have humble beginnings, but their increased ability to choose and cause change reveals that in the future beyond death they will surpass the elves.
@ArJay1688 2 жыл бұрын
I think you're only referring to the Vanyar/Teleri Elves but Noldor Elves are very much akin to Men than their own. The main reason why they revolted against the Valar in Valinor was they felt confined and were being held back in Valinor and they loved the wide spaces and freedom in ME as described by Melkor to them.
@SikkiNixx1989 Жыл бұрын
And this is why humans are the best fantasy race
@subliminalfalllenangel2108 Жыл бұрын
@@ArJay1688 the Noldors should have had the gut to finish what Feanor started and stay in ME. Maybe they should build another hall of mandos in the ME or sth
@enderman_of_d00m24 Жыл бұрын
@@ArJay1688 perhaps that's why the Noldor Elves built the strongest Elven realms? They did have a great motivator in Melkor's treachery. Mortal or Immortal, when a bastard murders the High King and steals the prized jewels of his firstborn son, now the new High King, you're gonna act rather human like and seek bloody vengeance against that monster
@atticusrex2691 2 ай бұрын
I mean, I'd consider the palantiri, several languages, their songs of power, etc, to be advancements. It's even said that the Elves perfect their craft over time to the point that others think they can do legit magic.
@terantoni 2 жыл бұрын
Of course it was unfair. Elves had a choice - they could have lived in Valinor. Both sindar and noldor made their choice to stay in the case of the first ones or go to Middle Earth in case of noldor no matter the suffering inflicted on them by Morgoth. People had no choice but to live on a spoiled land of Middle Earth and fight against Morgoth and Sauron. They were unwillingly used as a tool to weaken Morgoth - how could this be fair?
@TheBayzent 2 жыл бұрын
It's funny, Eru saying that Men weren't bound to Arda and therefore being destined to leave it, then throwing a hissy fit when Ar-Pharazôn wanted to explore.
@Accomplice1263 2 жыл бұрын
They also did't have to stay in middle Erath until the end of the world , I think it fair
@ocone7418 2 жыл бұрын
You are corrupted men
@terminallove3531 3 ай бұрын
@@TheBayzent They were forbidden from sailing West.
@abeschreier 2 жыл бұрын
I have an idea: let’s invade the Undying Lands and wrest immortality from the Valar’s cold dead hands!!!
@DeathMessenger1988 2 жыл бұрын
Oh, hey Ar-Pharazôn! How are you doing, man? Still buried alive? Truth be told, I don't really like the Valar anymore than I like Melkor. But that last invasion plan clearly didn't work. Maybe you should hire Kratos and Asura. XD
@michelisdemetrius1329 2 жыл бұрын
Lead on!
@user-oq4yk1xd7d 2 жыл бұрын
That line of thought brought Numenor crashing down into the oceans.
@junker1192 2 жыл бұрын
Hell yeah! What's the worst that could happen anyway?
@Greendalewitch 2 жыл бұрын
@@user-oq4yk1xd7d But to be fair, this was the Valar fault. They put Numenor in sight of Aman and told them they could not go there. Its like holding a slice of the most delicious looking cake you have ever seen and say you cannot get a taste of it. Seeing a place where there is no disease, sickness, old age or hurt, eventually brews anger and disdain, and then rebellion. The Valar were unbearably naive and incompetent, and whats worse, is that they were actually shocked when Men rebelled.
@saladinbob 2 жыл бұрын
None of that changes the fact that Ilúvatar showed favouritism towards the Elves in their creation. Man was made to be a lesser creature, therefore man was right to reject him.
@jakecollin5499 Жыл бұрын
This type of thinking is how the devil became the devil in the more interesting stories. Which of course is a large inspiration for Tolkiens creations.
@iloveplumpgrannies174 11 ай бұрын
@@jakecollin5499 It is true though. God or whoever he was if he's even real to begin with was a selfish prick who plays favorites. No wonder more and more people are starting to embrace atheism.
@jasminesuarez8358 11 ай бұрын
In the afterlife they were not bound to the earth as immortal creatures r. So in death is where the gift lied for those who were judged favorably. Think of Aragorns words to Arwen on his death bed. We are not bound foreverto the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory. Tbh men were more corruptible than all creatures so I'm not sure if immortality for them would be good for the earth.
@aleanapineda882 Жыл бұрын
Eru: My Eldest Children will be immortal, fairest, and wisest Eru: My Adoptive Children will be gifted in craftsmanship Eru: My Second Children…uh your time is limited on Earth, but hey you’re my favorite child! Men: gee, thanks dad…
@GuyChooo 9 ай бұрын
Eru: don't worry, after the end of the world, you will sing with me to create a new world and live there again. While the elves and dwarves die, they fade and they dont feel pain and suffering anymore just death and peace to them while you will stay here :D. Men: I don't think that's any better.
@beatleblev 2 жыл бұрын
A few thoughts occurred to me during the video: 1. The Undying land was not so. Elves (specifically the Noldor) brought conflict and death with them both by postpartum weariness and also by bloodshed. Though these elves could reincarnate, those who died this way seldom choose or are allowed to do so. 2. Numenor was too close to Aman. I think this is why Eru sank it beneath the waves and turned Arda into a sphere. The Ainur and the Eldar turned Numenor into Tol Eressea East. It's flora and perhaps fauna came from the West. They were taught the Arts and Crafts of the West by Eldar and Maiar. The Numenoreans were given every gift they were authorized to give, but in the end men desired the one gift the Valar could not give. All of the effects of living in Aman that you describe happened, at perhaps less intensity, in Numenor. In the end it robbed them of their nobility and peace and turned them into tyrants. 3. It is not for the Children to say who have been given the better Gift. Each Gift looks better to the other at some point. Weary elves long to be free of the confines of Arda. Men crave the immortal agelessness of elves. However, men cannot ken what it means to be tied to fate, to have your near endless days laid out for you with no ability to alter their course. Elves on the other hand do not know the fear of death and do not have to rely on faith for what happens after their bodies die. For either kindred, rejection of their gift and envy of the other leads only to conflict, misery, and sorrow.
@likac92009 2 жыл бұрын
Not all the Elves appreciated the unchanging nature of Undying Lands. Most Noldor were bothered by it for their nature too was to shape and change their surroundings. They were masters of building, reshaping and crafting.
@spacejunk2186 Жыл бұрын
@@GreenOlive54 This was only to make the Noldor craft weapons and distrust the Valar and each other. Their desire for crafting came from their friendship with Aule.
@enderman_of_d00m24 Жыл бұрын
why is it that anyone who likes to craft in the Tolkien Legendarium always ends up being the most routee and restless?
@nekomochi486 3 ай бұрын
@@enderman_of_d00m24 Because living in an unchanging land and to craft change do not go hand in hand. Aule the craftsman gave them this gift and he too was restless. So restless in fact that he grew impatient waiting for the Children of Iluvatar to awaken and created the dwarves.
@lukasbocker6740 2 жыл бұрын
Disclaimer: Sorry if I'm just writing the things mentioned in the video. I'm just tiping my thoughts before watching the video. The great mistake men have when thinking avout the undying lands: Travelling there does NOT mean that they become immortal themselves. Undying lands basically means, that the immortal race (elves) lives there. Not that everything entering those lands becomes immortal. Just look at Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and (later) Sam. All were allowed to travel there. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam as a reward for being ringbearers of the one ring, Gimli as a symbol of friendship between elves and dwarves. His friendship with Legolas basically ended a deep hatred that started with the murder of King Thingol of Menegroth in the first age. But all of the fore mortals that were allowed to enter the undying lands had to die at some point. They probably lives without any worries or illnesses until their end, but they had to die some day. The undying lands were not designed as a thing prohibited to men in a evil way. They were made to make the very concept of immortality bearable to elves. Immortality might seem tempting to a race that has to die after a rather short live. But really living forever can be a heavier burden than death itself.
@SantomPh 2 жыл бұрын
the hatred between Dwarves and Elves started even earlier, when the Sindar mistakenly hunted the Petty Dwarves as animals as they had never met speaking creatures they did not teach themselves before. We have to note that apart from Frodo, all of the Ringbearers and Gimli were close to the end of their natural lives (Bilbo was well beyond it) , so their reward would be a brief period of bliss and tranquility before their departure from the world. Sam in particular lived an incredibly happy life, leaving only when Rosie his beloved wife died, The message is that one doesn't need immortality to be happy or great, one's achievements during their lifetime are enough. Legolas and Gimli discuss Men and their short-term gains and losses in 'Minas Tirith', saying that Men often fail at their promises but not of their seed. Gimli notes that the best stone in the city is the oldest and longest set. Minas Tirith, the city built by the Numenoreans was once mighty but is now the last one left after the fall of all the others, and is people are in their twilight- yet they are still around, even prospering after a fashion .Heroes like Bergerond and Faramir still exist, even mightier men like Imrahil. Yet they will all die, to be replaced by their heirs, perhaps to a less successful extent.
@General12th 2 жыл бұрын
I like to believe mortals who live in the Undying Lands get to choose when they die.
@caldooo 2 жыл бұрын
The gift of Men, Horses, Rabbits, Eagles, Pidgeons, Bugs.. what a gift thank you ERU!!
@Charolette21 2 жыл бұрын
I can understand why Eru wanted humans to not follow the music, but why mortality that can only last last a little over 100 years? It didn’t have to be Númanorian 500, it could been a default of 200 or 250?
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
True though Tolkien said that the longer Numenorean lifespans made them more reluctant to accept death, since they cared more about their physical life
@artemismoonbow2475 2 жыл бұрын
Arbitrary numbers longer or shorter don't matter. As Tolkien said in an interview, the only reason to have more time for him would be to complete a work too large for a few decades. How many people do you know have a life mission and work that big? How many do you know have flames dwindling after 25 and only grab for more out of fear of loss? I've been blessed with an adventurous heart and have seen and done wonderful things and at 40 I'm completely exhausted, not resentful, just tired. Another 20 years just to sit in some suburban hell consuming material and hoarding life is no life at all. It isn't the length of time, it is what you can do with it.
@mikekochendorfer7965 2 жыл бұрын
@@artemismoonbow2475 I enjoy your statement but disagree on point. Over the past 41 years I've lived an extremely interesting life, others who know me and hear stories from earlier chapters comment about mine having been an eventful one. I can say now it's been a full one and I'm now living in what I consider prosperity in comparison to my previous norms and I could enjoy this as long as possible. If it ended today I would be happy with the life I've led but I would prefer to continue enjoying what I've made for myself.
@artemismoonbow2475 2 жыл бұрын
@@mikekochendorfer7965 I don't think we are in disagreement. I also think Point of Orders are usually subjective clarifications and that's actually a good thing. Our personal views of the journey differ slightly, but really, they don't. I'm happy for your reply and I hope you find years of joy in family and fun. Cheers.
@Charolette21 2 жыл бұрын
@@GeekZoneMT hence 250, at most, would be a good median age between Númanorian and standard lifespan.
@ironblue4593 2 жыл бұрын
I just discovered this channel it is awesome, also narrator is great
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
Welcome to the Fellowship!! 😁
@liamtaylor6838 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you! I am the new narrator. :)
@alexstewart9747 2 жыл бұрын
@@liamtaylor6838 great job. Thanks
@isaaksimmers7678 2 жыл бұрын
Welcome! Check out nerd of the rings. That's my other favorite channel!
@jimbeaux89 2 жыл бұрын
Geekzone is fantastic
@NavyDave219 2 жыл бұрын
I still don't understand what this "gift" is lol
@JacobSmith-rh2sr 2 жыл бұрын
Elves were %10000 favored by eru. Men can't live with the ainur and live in peace away from their enemies and across the sea and live forever...but are expected to fight in dagor dagorath and deliver the killing blow to morgoth. I'd be part of the crew trying to take over Aman
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
Hmm I dunno. Since we don't know what awaited Men after their death, perhaps a more blissful fate awaited them then that of the Elves
@gozer33 2 жыл бұрын
I used to think that. These days I can start to see why the elves are jealous of men's fate. Maybe we'd feel differently after looking at the same landscape for 10,000 years? At some point it would start to be intolerable.
@artemismoonbow2475 2 жыл бұрын
@@GeekZoneMT Take some shrooms and get a taste of the bliss of ego annihilation, comfort from anxiety, and appreciation for the time left here without fear.
@Chris-hp9be 2 жыл бұрын
Immortality would be a horrible experience. Over thousands of years you will experience many bad events which will accumulate and make you depressed or bitter.
@blaxpoitation8528 2 жыл бұрын
I tend to agree with that. Elves were absolutely favored by Eru. Think about it; they were the fairest, wisest, and [some of] most knowledgeable of all creatures in Middle Earth. They were more graceful, more skillful in arts and in combat. They built places of extreme beauty and "magic." Not to mention they were immortal (although they could be killed in battle or of a broken heart), and they were promised to live with gods and angels in the end. Men, while having a hardier constitution, have MUCH shorter lifespans, are more prone/susceptible to corruption and evil, are less skilled and knowledgeable (the exception to that rule were the Numenoreans), and in the end, their fate remained relatively unknown. But they were forbidden to enter the realm of the gods, despite having been largely on very good terms with the Elves, having fought next to them in crucial battles, and men being ultimately responsible for defeating the ancient evil in the land (Sauron).
@MikeMaryFitnessDuo 2 жыл бұрын
Elrond feared the date of men. He was not happy to give his daughter to Aragorn, maybe nor men nor elves understood the “gift”
@missourimongoose7643 2 жыл бұрын
He also chose to be an elf while his brother took the gift of men lending truth to your story
@Raz.C 2 жыл бұрын
I would agree that _neither_ Men nor Elves understood 'the gift,' however, it seems that Elves and Men were both aware- at some point- that it was indeed a gift and that later generations of Men came to forget this, knowing only that they died while the Elves didn't. By the third age, it seemed that only the Dunedain were aware that the differences in lifespans were due to the mandate of Eru Iluvatar (presumably due to the teachings of Elrond), while those in Gondor had long since forgotten such things. Still, Men, Elves, the Maiar and even the Valar (possibly excepting Mandos) did not know what happened to the spirits of Men when they left the halls of Mandos, knowing only that they were housed in halls set apart for them- for a while- and then they departed. Without knowing what happened to the Fea, the spirits of Men, I don't think any of them, not even the Valar could claim to understand the nature of the 'Gift' of Iluvatar.
@nicholasmaude6906 2 жыл бұрын
@@Raz.C "Still, Men, Elves, the Maiar and even the Valar (possibly excepting Mandos)" I don't know about Namo however Manwe did know as he regularly communed with Iluvator.
@Raz.C 2 жыл бұрын
@@nicholasmaude6906 Yes, he did. However, each Vala is- you could say- attuned to a different aspect of the mind of Eru. Namo and Irmo being the Feanturi, were much more closely attuned with the Fea of living beings than Manwe would have been. Namo would have been the one who would have known, if any of them did.
@davidandrews2972 2 жыл бұрын
It wasn't that, it was that he would almost certainly never see her again. Living as an elf, she could have travelled to Aman, but even if she had died her spirit would have gone to Mandos and eventually been released. Choosing mortality meant that that would not happen; her spirit would travel beyond the circles of the world after her death so they would never meet again while the world lasted, or maybe even beyond that, as the future of the elves beyond Dagor Dagorath is unknown.
@lukasbocker6740 2 жыл бұрын
An interesting question: What were the spirits of Elrond and Elros like? They were both given the coice to become mortal or to stay immortal. But did the coice mean that there was something changed in their personality as well, so they'd fit more into their chosen race? Or was their choice predestined by what their spirit was like (more elven-like vs. more human-like)? Although Elros died when he was 500 years lod, being the longest-living man of all time, was he like all other humans, changing and forming the world around him like mankind always does? Or was he more like the elves, preserving things like they were? And did Elrond pursue changing the world around him more than other elves did? Or did it mean some profound change in their spirits / souls, when those brothers chose their path, much deeper than just choosing death or immortality?
@istari0 2 жыл бұрын
Elros was the first king of Númenor so I'd say that puts him on the side of changing and forming the world.
@danielriley7380 2 жыл бұрын
I’d consider Elros mortal in body but elvish in spirit. Elrond was full Elven because of his choice.
@LagunaShirogane 2 жыл бұрын
@@danielriley7380 Actually Elrond was said to be a Half-Elf in the books but this is never stated at all in the movies by Peter Jackson. Half Man...Half Elf...but because he inherited most of his Elvish ancestry in not just his physical appearance but also Elvish magics as well along with their immortality, hes often mistaken easily as a pure blooded Elf along with his entire family. And it doesnt help that hes high up on the Elvish Hierarchy too.
@Accomplice1263 2 жыл бұрын
A change must have come over them
@beatleblev 2 жыл бұрын
Elros chose to spend his days alongside men and was counted among them. Elrond chose to keep the company of elves and to return with them to the Undying Lands. Luthien chose to spend her life with her love Beren as a mortal woman and now abides with him beyond the circles of the world. Tuor, due to his association with Ulmo, his marriage to an Elven Princess, and they respect and honor given to him in Gondolin allowed him to be the only mortal counted among the Elves. The answer to this seem to rely more on the company you keep than a spiritual change. Or, perhaps the community they associated with changes the nature of their spirit.
@PhantomSavage 2 жыл бұрын
True immortality really would be a curse, because as much as I'd like to say I'd want to live forever right now, I might feel quite differently a thousand years from now.. Its a dark thought, but if you truly lived on forever there might be a time where you feel like you've truly experienced everything life has to offer, that there is no sensation or extreme stimulus in existence that you haven't already experienced either in more number than you can remember or in such a truly profound way once upon a time that feeling something like that again is simply impossible, like the love of a soul mate who is now gone or is an entirely different person from the one they were 1,000 years ago.. Perhaps as a "young" person of just a few hundred years of age you were quite optimistic about the world, perhaps you were excited to see it change and evolve steadily into the better world you had hoped for as a child, but instead you lived to see a slow, painful, and irreversible path of self destruction, or maybe a massive disaster or series of global events that completed upheaved the world's bright future for thousands of years more, if not indefinitely.. If you ask me, if I wanted a immortality of any kind, I'd ask for the ones they give you in The Sims. Just live on forever, eternally youthful, until you can go press an internal button somewhere that turns on aging. If you're tired of life, let yourself fade a little bit and finally experience what its like to have a body that grows old... and if the world magically changes, just go turn off aging again until you get bored in a few hundred years. That'd be ideal.
@johnchhouk6551 2 жыл бұрын
You know highlander dealt with his very thing very well.
@tilltronje1623 2 жыл бұрын
I have never understood why death is supposed to be gift at all. Maybe you could explain that in a futurre video? Maybe touch on the discussion between Finrod and Andreth for context?
@grieferoncamera4600 2 жыл бұрын
Death is the ability to move on to a higher level. If death is only physical, then spiritually it would allow you to transcend beyond your body. Become unlimited and free. If you were immortal, staying in the same body forever would be a curse. You would never be free.
@avruvimtu2204 Жыл бұрын
Ok.., imagine in a real-world setting that you suffer from schizophrenia but you can't die. Isn't death a perfect closure to your suffering? Yes it really is as it would extinguish your suffering and mental turmoil. Death is natural, it is the ceasation of suffering. Elves on Aman are not men. They are elves. Elves are hardwired differently.
@daniell1483 2 жыл бұрын
The "Gift of Men" is the element of Tolkein's writing that I struggle with. The idea was to have two separate races - elves and men - that were equal but different. And yet this seems to me to be manifestly untrue. Elves can live forever, unburdened by death. They used their immortality to build great realms, craft great artifacts like the Simarils, and on and on the benefits run. Man? Oh, they die and go somewhere beyond Arda. Well, what is so good about this place 'beyond Arda'? Not a word on that. So these two races are not equal but different; one is simply better. Elves are immortal, unphased by disease or old age. And men are worse; they are mortal, on the whole generally weaker and less capable, vulnerable to disease, prisoners of circumstances of their birth, and of course uniquely susceptible to corruption by Morgoth and then later Sauron, and why? Because this "Gift" sucks.
@Czulu 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, this 'gift' rethoric always seem as nothing more than echo of how Tolkien was coping with his own mortality. Also elves are portrayed as obviously superior 'master race', any way for others to cope with them is by numerical superiority (which is taken to the extreme by orcs).
@novacorponline 2 жыл бұрын
Not to mention, Men are largely unable to use magic at all while elves are particularly gifted with magic. Even Aragorn's healing powers are questionable; it's kind of more like knowing first aid than being a healer.
@daniell1483 2 жыл бұрын
@@novacorponline Great point. Aragon is in just about every way the 'ideal man' of the setting, and while his contributions were not small, they are still overshadowed by other elves. If even the very best human ever isn't enough to change the paradigm, who possibly could?
@Winner8501 2 жыл бұрын
The key to understanding it is Tolkien's deep Christian faith. This "place beyond Arda" is essentially the Christian concept of heaven, i.e. being close(r) to or with God (Eru). The Elves, for all their beauty and immortality, cannot leave Arda and will *end* with Arda. Men's souls will, on the other hand, be truly immortal and eternally with God. I can understand why he called it a gift even though I am an atheist. But I also appreciate this may be difficult for people to accept if they don't share Tolkien's vantage point on religious faith.
@beatleblev 2 жыл бұрын
That's exactly what Morgoth wants you to think.
@JacobSmith-rh2sr 2 жыл бұрын
And! In some cases men are confined to the world, such as the barrow wights and the army of the dead. Eru really did shit on men lmao
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah those are such an interesting case!
@mattrogersftw 2 жыл бұрын
I was gonna say, Eru and the Valar just come off as dicks in Tolkeins writing disguised as some omnipotent grand plan. They let morgoth nearly destroy the entire world out of spite for the elves who left them for middle earth.
@SvenTviking 2 жыл бұрын
Barrow wights are minor wraiths, possibly killed by Morgul blades like that which wounded Frodo.
@michaelblower7363 2 жыл бұрын
Well Isildur cursed the Dunharrow army to never rest in peace for their cowardice. Being one of The Faithful/Dunedain, he must have known some magics in which to prevent the soul from leaving.
@torianholt2752 2 жыл бұрын
Oath-breakers aren't taken lightly in the Tolkienverse.
@chucutitan 2 жыл бұрын
Were men taught the prophecy that after Dagor Dagorath their spirits would join in the singing of a new reality?
@brinstarmedia1411 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t think they knew. Seems most of lore from the beginning of the world passed into lore and myth through the ages. Even the valar became myth in the eyes of men as the ages went by.
@wildrangeringreen 2 жыл бұрын
The Edain probably learned of it from the Noldor, but the bulk of men may not have, having been manipulated to some extent by Melkor or Suaron. Even the Ainur didn't know where the fea of men went when they died.
@lahoku 2 жыл бұрын
All we know for certain, is that Men were the most favorite children of Eru! The special of the two (or 3rd if you consider the adoption of the Dwarves, which technically is indirectly his children through one of the Valar)! That is why nobody KNOWS what happens to Men when they die or where they go or what their purpose is! But that is why Men have the free will to do as they please (well us humans as this is Tolkien’s version of explanation of why we are always seeking our own fates & why we sacrifice & long for that what is truly our own desires). We aren’t bound to the Earth & to follow the rules of that unlike the Elves 🧝♀️ & Valar. That is why Men crave adventure, knowledge, passion, desire, & so forth. But as for the true extent of why Men were given mortality...no one knows nor comprehends nor understands as to why... In all honesty, I believe this is why when Men live you either have faith or dont. You have the blessings of choice & even if this life is in despair & Great Opression, at least you’re able to escape & leave this world into another. Why the Men will meet Eru & be given or granted a next life & so on. If anyone notices, Men become adaptive & resilient & skillful within such a short time span. It’s not difficult to fathom that Men have the talent & capability to far exceed even those born with blessed powers. That’s what I honestly believe the spirit of Man is special & will continue living in a way bestowed upon the One Creator.
@billvolk4236 2 жыл бұрын
They're the ones who made it up. The elves have no idea what their fate is because Eru refuses to tell them. Therefore the Dagor Dagorath is a bit of made-up mannish Fourth Age eschatology, which explains its nonsensical parts like Turin and Feanor acting way out of character.
@yokai333 2 жыл бұрын
I'm a bit torn on which side eru's creation I'd choose. As a man, it would feel the same as now; conversely, as an eldar, it would be a stretched out variation of men
@jawstrock2215 2 жыл бұрын
When you are immortal, you lose any sense of urgency. Time is not a variable of your actions or decision for the most part.
@SantomPh 2 жыл бұрын
the Eldar are built differently to Men, they were bound to the world and would not feel old.
@zeldazelda8535 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for what you have done, Numenor's loss is due to their heinous actions, human beings are constantly changing because of their nature. I am one of your Arab followers I have something I like to say The word "aman" is pronounced in Arabic (أمان) "aman". In Arabic it means tranquility (security) serenity
@astraloutlaw6549 Жыл бұрын
This was a rather interesting concept to think about. I always thought that death itself was more of a gift, a gift of mortality. Elves and men have their own gifts. Elves have the gift of Immortality, because if they die, their spirits would be bound to the world of Arda, never an eternal afterlife which is a gift given to the race of men. In other words, the men go into an afterlife without being bound to the world, and the elves' spirits forever remain bound to the world of Arda, becoming 'one' with it. This is why elves have immortality, so that their spirits throughout all of time can strengthen and endure. The men on the other hand, aren't bound to the world of Arda, but their souls are able to pass beyond the world of Arda, perhaps being able to rejoin Eru Illuvatar and become Maiar themselves. So in my opinion, the spirits of the elves would never leave the world of Arda, but remain until the end of time. The only problem I have is this. The Valar seemed to "favor" the elves more than men in the sense that the elves have a piece of land where they could live without constant changes that the men of middle-earth desire from time to time. But unlike the men, the elves also had great protection from the Valar, therefore the men were most vulnerable to corruption. Therefore, it's unwise to blame men for being envious of the elves' immortality when Morgoth was the one who corrupted their hearts to see mortality as a curse than a blessing. Yet, who didn't bother to stop Morgoth from corrupting the race of men? The Valar. Not even Sauron was stopped by them. All they did was tell the race of Elves to go ahead and abandon Middle-Earth, not fix the mess they created in the first place. So I'm very much in sympathy for Men and in favor of the fates of men. I sympathize with the race of men because they weren't protected by the Valar, and were left with the chances of being corrupted by Morgoth and Sauron to turn against the elves and the free peoples of Middle-Earth. Also, I find mortality more as a gift, because being bound to the world of Arda in spirit rather than able to go beyond that and be at true peace in the afterlife sounds more like a curse to me than a blessing the elves got.
@tonyhinrichs1869 2 жыл бұрын
I LOVE your channel you guys have taught me about so much more of the fantastic and in my opinion very spiritual world of middle earth and EVERY little detail that’s goes with it!!!
@thomasdawe1837 2 жыл бұрын
I know the assumptions about immortality having its drawbacks (the freedom to leave life and its burdens behind, etc...), but would've been nice to see some exploration of why mortality was a gift in this vid. If men had an immortal soul, surely the problems would be gone?
@chrisbreneman6605 2 жыл бұрын
I would imagine that many men could learn to appreciate and even thrive in the undying lands, living there as guests. Especially if they came later in life, after many hardships, the way Bilbo and Frodo did. I agree though that a settlement or larger society of men would founder, and those born there would certainly resent the seemingly unnatural passage of time.
@AgueroNain 2 жыл бұрын
Fascinating analysis and impeccable narration. Thank you for this content rediscovered Tolkien again thanks to you. This reminds me a lot of non canonical narration of the book of Enoch when Angels became jealous of mortal men. Phenomenal Tolkien changes it up in his world building. I prefer the gift of the elves, however, all beings have a function, a purpose, from the insect to mankind. Mortality for both hunter and hunted, so acceptance or understanding of the function and purpose of the specific race, elven, man, dwarvish and so on, I think is the key in Tolkien’s writing to mitigating or quenching said desires of power, immortality etc… For example, much like Galadriel passed the test of the ring of power, as you’ll recall she desired power, in the end she accepted her part or purpose in middle earth and she diminished in power, but her banishment from the undying lands was lifted, boom she returned to the undying lands. Much like the hobbits too, both Bilbo and Frodo were resistant and rebuked the evil of the ring, so another test that they managed to pass…and boom off to the undying lands, anyways those are my thoughts, thank you and stay safe.
@matthewdaw6485 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent video! One of the best that I've seen in a very long time!
@LusiaEyre 2 жыл бұрын
I always wondered why Arwen had to forsake immortality to be with Aragorn even though it was obvious she was still going to outlive him? Couldn't they just got married for a few decades with Arwen leaving when he dies? Elrond could've even waited for her. I am assuming this was a requirement from the gods but what's the story behind it?
@mondenkindqueen 2 жыл бұрын
Basically, half human/half elves were given a choice between living as an elf or a human. Arwen being such as a descendant of Elron Halfelven was given this choice. To be with Aragon, she had to choose a mortal life. Elron choose to life as an elf. His brother choose to live as a man and become a king of men.
@gilgeaschwithkerk2344 2 жыл бұрын
So she can with Aragorn after her death as Elf she would live an eternity without him
@SikkiNixx1989 Жыл бұрын
@@heathengypsy well. Finwe remarried after Miriel committed ethereal suicide :)
@akanshasaha6128 Жыл бұрын
@@SikkiNixx1989 that was just a different case and exception... Otherwise elves are very loyal and would die with a broken heart.
@brotherskeeper100 6 ай бұрын
Exactly. Why couldn't she have just gone back after Aragorn died.
@spacewiz163 2 жыл бұрын
Could the gift of man after death be coming into the personal presence of Eru Illuvatar? Personally i think i would choose the gift of man. Mostly to explore and know that which could be beyond Arda. For there wont be much New to know and explore if one were to stay in Arda.
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah that's my favourite theory tbh :)
@spacewiz163 2 жыл бұрын
@@GeekZoneMT I wonder though, if that is the case, why is that hidden from Men? Why would Eru keep that truth from that plane of existence?
@meduseldtales3383 2 жыл бұрын
@@spacewiz163 It was told to Men by the voice of Eru in the early days, but because of the lies of Morgoth, Men stopped believing it, save the few who became the three Houses of Edain.
@seldelaterre2786 2 жыл бұрын
@@spacewiz163 Maybe because he planned to let only some men in his presence, like the faithful, and men like heirs of Elendil (you know I don't think he would let men like ar-pharazon or any evil men in his presence) . And so if he tells everyone about the true gift given to men all men even the most faithful would become arrogant and thus unworthy or something like that. It's like a test, he does not tell and watch who will behave like Aragorn or Grimma and then at the end give the salary to all according to their choice.
@spacewiz163 2 жыл бұрын
@@seldelaterre2786 yeah that does make sense. Very akin to spiritual purification.🙂
@soundslikeblue 2 жыл бұрын
This is one of my favourit videos from this channel so far, although Karl was amazing as narrator, you are doing a wonderful job too (I follow this cannel for a long time, but still don't know your name, sorry!). I must also add that subjects evolving Elves are among my favourit topics always (ever since I started to read Tolkien in my teenage years I became fascinated with the Elves' stories, specially the Noldor ones)... So what can I say more? Well thank you very very much for all the information and metioning the sources, you've doing a wonderfull work! Cheers from Portugal!
@phoxytwicks 2 жыл бұрын
Wanted to say, great narration and writing for this. You are a great story teller.
@james6401 2 жыл бұрын
Gimli went there too! In Irish mythology there is the magic Land of Eternal Youth - Tír na nÓg. Diarmuid went there but when he came back he couldn't put his feet on mortal earth and had to ride around on a horse forever. This story does not end well....
@gozer33 2 жыл бұрын
I've wondered if Men were originally part of the plan at all? In a perfect world, the elves would be happy to live forever in peace. Was it Melkors meddling in the music that caused Eru to shift gears and create Men to live for a time in an imperfect world?
@meduseldtales3383 2 жыл бұрын
Nope, because everything Melkor did, ultimately played in to Iluvatar's original design. "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
@andresponte1320 2 жыл бұрын
Right!? I think Eru planned to make both, but didn't know how to resolve that soul/ body problem and Melkors' song provided the answers, so Eru adjusted for it in the second song "theme" . Imo... .edit "theme"
@sadek__4952 2 жыл бұрын
That's exactly my thought as well, if everything went according to the original plan Arda wouldn't be affected in it's nature By melkor which would make everywhere a good place for elves to live. So what happens to me then ? Also if we ignore that and say that at least one part of the plan goes right which is all the elves answering the summons to valinor and leaving middle earth, what would happen to men then ? Will the valar go to war against morgoth for the sake of men or will they leave them to deal with it like they did in the second and third age. It's kind of going too deep into this but that's one fun part about it
@gozer33 2 жыл бұрын
@@meduseldtales3383 yes, but even though Melkor's plan of controlling the music is folly, he still managed to change things beyond what was originally planned in the music. Eru composed new themes to counter him.
@OfficialFedHater 2 жыл бұрын
I think it's good to note that the men of Numenor originally embraced death and saw it as a blessing, often choosing to die willingly rather than continue living a longer life when they could. And the Oathbreakers where what they really wanted was a final death, to be free of their oath so they could pass from the mortal world. Their spirits had a sort of immortality, but what they wanted was death.
@elvis_o_homem_jukebox 2 жыл бұрын
Always bringing up high quality information about our favorite fantasy universe!
@lilitharam44 2 жыл бұрын
What about Tuor? He went to the Undying Lands with his wife, Idril. He was a mortal, though Edain. Did Tolkien explain this in the same essay? I haven't read "Morgoth's Ring" in years, looks like I need to go back and read it.
@goodputin4324 2 жыл бұрын
Yes both Tuor and Earendil his son were given the gift of immortality to follow their Elf spouse who were already immortal.
@OneFlyingTonk 2 жыл бұрын
What's most interesting to me is that at first the Edain were accepting of death, for when Bëor died (Page 149 of the Silmarillion) it was said that "But Bëor had willingly abandoned life and died in peace". This probably means that at first the Edain were, due to not being tainted by Morgoth's influence, able to embrace their gift?
@SantomPh 2 жыл бұрын
Beor the Old knew his time was come and accepted his death, something the Elves were shocked by, as no one had killed him. The Edain, like all Men had a seed of Morgoth in them , but Beor lived his life which was mostly hardship in getting the House of Beor to Beleriand, remaining humble and calm. There were other Men not so calm, like the group of Men who decided to leave Beleriand altogether and go back east, or Turin Turambar, who was heroic but easily manipulated by Glaurung and Morgoth, killing himself in shame and grief. The Numenoreans however, died in a more special way, by greeting death as it came, surrendering their life in peace without feeling old or burdened, basically committing the chillest suicide ever. Beor simply died as an old man would, but the Numenoreans left the world neither old or withered.
@Anarchouettisme 2 жыл бұрын
The quality of this channel is incredible!
@quintahab1004 2 жыл бұрын
Good video. I’m new to the channel. You changed my perspective on the Undying Lands. I always thought it was where the Elves, Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo went to die. I’m rereading The Hobbit right now. I’m looking forward to checking out your other videos.
@joesteadman343 2 жыл бұрын
This poses some good questions. If in our universe we had immortality how would the effect us humans? Would what's currently important to us change? How would we think about the planet? Would we be more willing to build space ships and go look for other species? Could we do it without abusing the universe and each other?
@aonirsplayground6224 2 жыл бұрын
Probably saved it with the last connotation that the immortality given to the elves was bound to their liking of the unchanged aspect of the world, forever stagnant, and if it is so, then THAT immortality is indeed a sad one, as you don't see further than the limits imposed on the existing world. On the other hand the mortality of Men allows this "fortune seeker" and the need for change and innovation, so I'd prefer this route, albeit longer, though you would always say "longer" I suppose. Abiding by tolkien's rules if I could be an immortal elf and SEE the changes made by Men and/or other races I would happily be immortal, however I wouldn't much enjoy immortality in the Undying lands. On the other hand being a mortal sounds like an adventure, but this is all assuming you know the afterlife that awaits you, otherwise its hard to say "yeh you enjoy life.......for a while then you're gone lol", in that scenario frick mortality and adventure lmao if you're gone and "you" cease to utterly exist, might as well be immortal in w/e setting. On the broader spectrum and IRL a bit, immortality is desirable at an individual level and we all say it would be awesome, but even if you discard the fact it would mean endless wars due to overpopulation, it would mean stagnation of evolution really, but we can't fathom 100 years into the future much less 50k years.
@SuperRedempteur 8 ай бұрын
This video answered all my questions
@edwardlecore141 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent analysis, not seen this ever really covered before.
@knullhast 2 жыл бұрын
Sorry i just want to point out that the legendary Tuor of house Hador in the first age? Lord Elronds grandfather on his father, Erändils side is the ONLY man to be granted access to Aman and more so..Tuor, not a half-elven but a mortal man of house Hador was granted to be counted among the Eldar since they saw him as practiaclly family and he married the elf princess of Gondolin, Idril. Tuor was well liked by both the Valar ulmo and rose in favour with the elfs of Gondolin. So there is acutally ONE exampel of a man in Tolkiens works that was granted the fate of the Eldar as a mortal man and to live with them in Aman. That is intresting.
@SantomPh 2 жыл бұрын
the way it is written is apocryphal, and that Tuor was accepted as one of the Firstborn is what the 'author' suggests, as no one saw him ever again. Unlike Earendil, who is explicitly converted into an Elf, Tuor just vanishes from the text. This way we don't know and have to believe the narrator. Tuor is absent when his son arrives in Valinor with the Silmaril and doesn't even return with him to fight the War of Wrath. It could be that he just died a 'guest' death like the Ringbearers would later on.
@adrianfuegoscuro6308 2 жыл бұрын
I definitely prefer the gift of mortality. living in this world forever would be too boring. In any case, I would have liked to be a full-blooded Numenorean and live for 200 or 250 years. excellent video. Thank you very much for developing the theme.
@blaxpoitation8528 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah... but we're not talking about THIS world, are we? We're talking about Tolkien's world. A world full of wonders, mysteries and the fantastic. You're telling me in THAT world, you'd want to live a shortened life? Idk man... it feels like men got a raw deal. But I agree with having a Numenorean lifespan.
@theearwyrm6105 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Thanks for sharing and helping illuminate this essay from Tolkien!
@judowrestlerka 2 жыл бұрын
SO WELL SPOKEN!!!! BRAVO!
@MikeJones__Who 2 жыл бұрын
If death is such a blessing and if living in Valinor would lead to corruption of the soul...then why did the Valar allow passage and in fact let Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise, and Gimi live in the Valinor? Even though they're not technically men and may have eventually died in Valinor... it seems like that was a huge reward rather than a curse. The fact that the Númenoreans were gifted with long life (even though finite) suggests to me that mortality/life especially the relatively short life of man is not really a gift at all. If it were such a gift it seems like a shorter life for all mortals would be a reward rather than a longer one....
@XGD5layer 2 жыл бұрын
As the video described: Stray mortals were fine, as they would be limited to a single location, but a civilization of mortals there would not be sustainable.
@MikeJones__Who 2 жыл бұрын
@@XGD5layer I understand the premise that everyone couldn't live in Valinor but it still doesn't answer the issue of - if death is such a gift why do certain mortals have their lives extended as a "gift"? If the point is that death give men a much more rich appreciation of life and all the wonders of the world... seems like granting someone a faster death would be the ultimate gift? Why give the Númenoreans extended life as as example...wouldn't that be a curse and a punishment because you're denying them the gift of death?
@XGD5layer 2 жыл бұрын
@@MikeJones__Who The video did answer all the questions you're thinking of.
@MikeJones__Who 2 жыл бұрын
Not really no
@stephensmith3111 2 жыл бұрын
When I first read The Lord of the Rings back in the early '70s (on my own accord, it was not an assignment of the public school curriculum, at least not in the Kansas City North School District at the time), I found many things quite fascinating and admirable about the Elvish people, but the gift of immortality was not particularly one of them. In fact, it barely registered in my teenage psyche compared to their other attributes. Upon later musings, immortality in a finite world would eventually render all things uninteresting. Even Abby Road, e.g., would likely become boring after 42000 listenings or so.
@darthgorthaur258 2 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry I just can't do it, I can't watch without you doing the narrations, your voice just added to the lore so much, I'll stay subbed but only check in to hope your back doing the voice over again. Really hope you get free enough to do it again soon.
@serene-illusion Жыл бұрын
I love to think that this was one of Miyazaki's inspirations for the Undead in Dark Souls, how becoming undying and losing their will to endure would leave them to become empty vessels as Hollows. Then again that sort of got retconned in DS3.
@gabrieldavid4250 2 жыл бұрын
I have 1 question, when are we gonna have the original narrator? i kinda miss him ngl :))
@GeekZoneMT 2 жыл бұрын
I really hope to organise a few livestreams soon :)
@drewc.256 2 жыл бұрын
@@GeekZoneMT I do miss when you used to narrate 😄
@aedwardsss 2 жыл бұрын
Aw cmon the new guy is good too. ;)
@setro5582 2 жыл бұрын
At first, i thought his balls just dropped. I didnt know its 2 people
@Dadecorban 2 жыл бұрын
Pity the man that accepted fine jewelry from Sauron; a living hell.
@MrCrabdragon 2 жыл бұрын
Beautiful Video my friend. Subscribed.
@iraklimeladze3378 2 жыл бұрын
you have the best channel on Lotr lore and you have an amazing voice!
@LooBiggerthanyoo 2 жыл бұрын
Death is a gift, Is the stupidest thing to tell another being. You don't see elves being envious of mortals. You see them run back to the west when their rings of power fade.
@chrisleonard2066 2 жыл бұрын
Liams voice is a blessing from Eru himself tbf
@JasonSmith-we5ls 2 жыл бұрын
Great video man
@DisIzDaName 2 жыл бұрын
So... None of this explains how causing humans to age, and die is a gift. It just says we were also cursed with spirits that spoiled like milk and had to be thown out of the world itself to avoid stinking up the place. So, humans were cursed twice.
@14dcook 2 жыл бұрын
There’s nothing to admire in the “gift” of death. To leave the world, to watch as it changes and to feel yourself grow from vigorous youth to the agony and pain of age where you receive nothing but pity and the deprivation of your own abilities, that is no gift, but a curse.
@Ruhrich92 2 жыл бұрын
Ive only turned 29 recently, Im far from old or wise...but recently I overcame that mindset thanks to my 7 year old daughter's excitement to make a new friend, and my mother warning that it only gets worse. In my own youth, I made so many mistakes. As did my mother and every other person I know. As I get older my mistakes are less, but my life is less exciting as well. It now feels as if my role is to guide my daughter through her youth, and through her I live on. My mother and I have a few decades left to share stories of our mistakes and our successes, and my daughter and I hopefully have an entire lifetime to grow together. Without mortality, there would be no price, no limit, no reason to pass onor share my experiences to the young or to make the old smile with nostalgia. Its beautiful in the same way the autumn is colorful. It is a process of dying, but also making of a place for future life. To do my part in that is a gift. To those mortals that do not have youth to live on through, no-one to pass stories too...I pity them, but to me, thats where faith comes into play...perhaps there is a stranger in need, or prejudice they must overcome in order to live on in other ways. It is only the selfish and bitter, judgemental and hateful, sinners and prideful mortals that die-never remembered-or able to live again. A terrible fate...pass on the beauty of youth, and have a wonderful day. Be good to others!
@14dcook 2 жыл бұрын
@@Ruhrich92 is it not better to be remembered eternally rather than just in the memories of your loved ones? One day, your loved ones would forget to tell their loved ones about you. The knowledge you ever existed will slowly fade and eventually we won't even be a memory. Life allows you to say you were here. You existed, and you contributed ANYTHING to the world. It ensures you are remembered in any way.
@richardsrichards2984 2 жыл бұрын
A gift you cannot reject is no gift at all.its called a burden
@SquidlyCFST 2 жыл бұрын
Literally has changed my sleep game. I wake up refreshed and ready for the day.
@jamiegregg9211 2 жыл бұрын
awesome vid really enjoyed it
@EmperorCaligula_EC 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting, but I can't help to regard Eru almost as much as a tyrant as Melkor. He create inescapable fate to people and races, none of them having a say in it or being asked if they liked their gifts. At least Elves could chose mortality, either by killing themselves or going to a hopeless war or as Arwen marrying a human. Humans had no choice whatsoever to ever change their status. I have a hard time to imagine any human seeing age and death as a gift. So Eru, being immortal, gave a "gift", mortality, which he himself had not the SLIGHTEST sense what that actually meant to endure.
@be-gone-thot 2 жыл бұрын
Understand something about that choice though. It by no means is a good choice. If anything, not having the choice is more merciful. The premise is that death is not a gift but a curse. With that premise in mind look at arwen. She made a choice to forsake living forever, but in doing that, had to suffer two deaths. The first by giving up an immortal life to suffer eventual death. And second, being that elves having immortality then seek to preserve what they have forever. When the mortality strikes the one she died once for, being grieved at losing what she must have desired to have forever then caused her to go and die out of her own grief essentially. So she died a second time. Because times changing is essentially against the very spirit of a being thats meant to live forever and preserve what they built forever, causing a death of the spirit and body. So the reason not having the choice is more merciful is to imagine yourself in either beings shoes. Men know for a fact what their fate is, so they can truly live that life to the fullest, and know what path to take, and that instead of just preserving what is there, they have the push out the door to use the infinite potential they have to create something more grand and better. Whereas by having the choice elves have, you either get to pick the pain of death by either giving up immortality, or death of their souls by seeing everything you sacrificed immortality for change or disappear, but most likely they would get both. Or they can choose to give up an existence they want most with those whom they want to share with it most, and go on to the undying lands living out what their spirits goal is. Imagine having that choice all the time, and the suffering it would cause you to have to make, and whether you are making the right decision or not. By taking the choice off the board, you essentially give permission to that being to fully live out who they are with what they got as they desire rather than vasilate between the existence of what they have vs what they may think they want, while squandering what's right in front t of them as the numenorians did, to their downfall of arrogance and jealousy. Two things that would be taken off the table by essentially being made to stay in your lane so to speak.
@billvolk4236 2 жыл бұрын
He himself said "no music can be made that hath not its uttermost source in me." All the suffering that people like to blame on Melkor was really Eru's idea the whole time. All of the Ainur represented some part of Eru's mind, and Melkor represented the largest share of it. It's also shown that there's nothing Eru loves more than weeping.
@harrilarson1725 2 жыл бұрын
The thing is, since eleves spirits were bound to Arda even if their physical bodies were killed their spirts would still be bound to Arda and would go to The Halls of Mandos and be rembodied after death. In a case like Arwens she was half elf and could chose a mortal life, or an immortal life and she chose a mortal life. So elves didnt have a choice unless they were half elves.
@whiteeye3453 2 жыл бұрын
What living life to the fullest what having infinite potential because men had none of that
@xiongrey19 2 жыл бұрын
I have two thoughts: one on my opinion on immortality and one in my opinion on how it was handled by Tolkien/Eru Illuvitar. First I think living a long life is good and living forever is a curse. Easy. Second I think Eru Illuvitar basically tortured humans by giving elves immortality and realms of peace and the creating humans that specifically could not reap any benefits that the elves could. Eru Illuvitar was afraid they would want the better lives and lands that were straight up gifted to Elves when that was how it was designed.
@cindaberry1108 2 жыл бұрын
To add to that, I seems to me that Eru used human souls to carry off some of Morgoth's taint. Clearly men were an after thought and not meant to be part of the world.
@aeronmcintosh-walker4912 2 жыл бұрын
You ,good sir, have one of the most relaxing voices on youtube
@paulslade129 2 жыл бұрын
What an insightful reason. Well said and highly believable.
@bloodassassin9285 2 жыл бұрын
Man only talion can appreciate eru’s gift well because of his journey
@bubbles784 2 жыл бұрын
Yea, being kept alive by a ring that tortures you really puts your life (or undead life) into perspective.
@bloodassassin9285 2 жыл бұрын
@@bubbles784 true the sweet release is better because you never had a break nor the endless torture
@fulviorsc 2 жыл бұрын
I understand what those who want immortality feel like, my hatred for death is extreme, so much that I find it very hard to enjoy a mortal life. Somehow it feels like, as long as my life will end one day, it's the same as not having existed to begin with, like everything is just an illusion. That thought drives me mad sometimes.
@beerasaurus 2 жыл бұрын
Great video!
@ankafrida1241 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I really love your voice!
@liamtaylor6838 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you! I am the new narrator. :)
@JacobSmith-rh2sr 2 жыл бұрын
AND!!!!! If elves wanted to be wed to a man/woman they could choose to have a mortal life. AND Elronds brother elros got to not only rule as the first king of numenor as an elf, he too got to choose the gift of men
@KateeAngel 2 жыл бұрын
Elves couldn't choose mortality. Only half-elves, like Elros, Elrond and Arwen had any choice, because they had both men and elves in ancestry. Have you even been paying attention to the lore, dude?
@JacobSmith-rh2sr 2 жыл бұрын
@@KateeAngel aragorn was a descendant of elros and didn't get to choose immortality. Technically arwen and aragorn are distant cousins. Aragorn was a descendant of the kings of numenor and elros being the first king of numenor makes him technically have some elvish blood in him
@JacobSmith-rh2sr 2 жыл бұрын
I mean maybe a drop or two of elvish blood but he didn't get to choose to live immortally, and I think he would if it meant he had the choice and could live with arwen in Aman.. he was always doubtful and grim about his destiny and at one point was contemplating on letting her go to the gray Havens
@glaurung8644 2 жыл бұрын
@@KateeAngel Luthien was the daughter of a high elf and a Maia and yet she did get to choose mortality. It was also the same with Arwen. They didn't have that choice at first, but because they fell in love with mortals, they were later able to become mortal themselves.
@25Erix 2 жыл бұрын
Humans fear death but at the same time, we eventually grow tired of the uncaring world around us and death becomes, as Harry Potter says, a friend to us. Immortality is a soul-draining concept because you'd watch everything else die around you. Our minds can only handle so much of that. I write my own high fantasy world (known as All World) and while I have many long-lived species, there are only five specific characters that have true immortality (as far as time's passage goes). The five in question are the World Masters and their enduring lives are part of the purpose given to them by All World's creator-deity, the World Weaver. Their job is to guide an otherwise fallen world from the beginning of time to the very end of it. I made them all beasts since they can be trusted with that level of power and have greater fortitude over the soul-draining effects of Time's passage. Their immortality is tied to their planet. As long as it endures, they will as well. I make it no secret that the Masters are completely exhausted and worn out after only 6,000 years. The only things keeping them going right now are their various relationships and knowing that none of it will last forever. They may not know the exact "when" but they have a clear view of what the End will look like for them. They will survive the seven-year-long Tribulation War, the week-long Battle of Armageddon, linger for another forty days while they travel to where they were given Masterdom, and then die (triggering the Apocalypse). They appreciate what they will never have until the appointed time and agree that their immortality is a blessing and a curse.
@erikavalentina4940 2 жыл бұрын
I love your channel even more, you always discuss the question we all have related with middle earth lore. As for your question, after learning elves fate and human fate. I would prefer human fate. I can see myself grow weary if my spirit bound to earth until the end of time just like elves because after all they must fight once again in Final Battle with Morgoth. As for men, although it is said that the afterlife is unknown, I think it is safe to say that their spirit goes back to Eru Iluvatar once they are dead. Knowing Eru character in the Lore, I believe that men spirit will be release from all the burden and pain of Arda and finally got their real peaceful eternal life.
@TheAaronRodgersTao 2 жыл бұрын
Wow! This makes me feel so much better.
@fastzander 2 жыл бұрын
Things would be so, so much easier if Eru allowed Men some knowledge re. their fate after death and they didn't have to take it entirely on faith that they didn't cease to exist or, even worse, go into the Void to be with Morgoth. Presumbably, though, there's a reason why this is a secret.
@SantomPh 2 жыл бұрын
Men are not to understand the meaning of life after death, because the majority of humans do not muse about these things. It is Men who have fought over petty things like bloodlines, property and differences in language. Anyone with that knowledge would likely be disbelieved or even persecuted. Even among Elves there is no knowledge of that,since they have no afterlife as such. That's the idea of faith, to encourage the best of the here and now. If Men knew they would be leaving the world, they would pretty much do nothing in this one.
@Elia-fn8jv 2 жыл бұрын
@@SantomPh kinda begs the question of why being in this one in the first place?why not being already there?
@warfightersanonymous7760 2 жыл бұрын
This idea is explored deeply in the Highlander series...that's why The Prize was mortality. The ability to have children, grow old, and finally have a peaceful death.
@silverhawkscape2677 2 жыл бұрын
Tell that to most Atheist seeing Mortality as a disease to be killed. Not a prize. Even if the author was less religiously inclined, they'd call it a death apologist work.
@spencermclean2575 2 жыл бұрын
Dear GZ, great video on men and immortality. One thought as an add for future video on this topic. The blessing of mortality, from a spiritual benefit perspective, goes back to why Eru made them mortal to begin with. The Sil./Tolkien states men were made this way to bring energy and vitality to middle-earth due to their nature to build and expand and explore the corners of the created world. The comparative brevity of their life, is consistent with the nature of their spirits to achieve this purpose. Elves seemed to have too much contentment (minus Morgoth's marring of almost everything) at pace almost too deliberate, serene and slow-paced even for Eru. Not a design flaw, but the counter-balance of what men brought to the energies of the world are apparently a design fulfillment- instead of design correction. All the best to you. ~The LoreMaster
@Noleme 2 жыл бұрын
You did. You mad lad. Someone finally, finally includes that juicy lore tidbit that 'the body and spirit of man would become in conflict'.
@ronnelechavez 2 жыл бұрын
I still prefer immortality.
@sadek__4952 2 жыл бұрын
Before I watch this video which I know would be great anyways. I want to ask you about your opinion of this (what if scenario), so what if all elves agreed to take the journey to valinor when they were called upon after their awakening, how would that change the main events that happened in middle earth ? Because that's basically how the valar planned and where the elves were supposed to go from the beginning. Idk if this is worth to be a video idea but like no one ever thought of that.
@MountainFisher 2 жыл бұрын
If you've read the Silmarillion you would know that not all the Valar thought it was a good idea to bring the elves to Valinor. Ulmo for one thought they should be left where they awoke and rebuild and heal Middle Earth from the destruction that Morgoth had caused. Don't forget the first war upon Morgoth was done to protect the Elves from him and imprisoned him for three ages in the Halls of Mandos. It was never Eru's purpose for the elves to live in Valinor, that was the choice of most of the Valar.
@False_Death Жыл бұрын
Honestly i think i could live out a happy long life in the Undying lands and pass away peacefully. But i think that may strive from my desire to stay the same because i do not like change especially if what i have is what makes me happy. But what little change i would want would be satisfied by leaving middle earth and discovering a new paradise like land of magic and wonders. So the last half of my life would be spent in a place of endless wonders. I couldn't think of a better place to live out your twilight years. Just like bilbo. He had his adventures on middle earth. Then it was time to move on. What a way to go. i would be a ring bearer just to get the chance to live out my days there. Fantastic video! Instant subscription from me (:
@motoguzzigriso 2 жыл бұрын
The artwork is outstanding.
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