Why didn't Britain adopt this advanced self-loading rifle? With firearms expert Christian Wellard

Рет қаралды 35,706

Жыл бұрын

In the 1920s, the British Army examined a number of options to replace the bolt-action Lee Enfield rifle. Several self-loading rifle systems were examined at a time when the US Army was looking at adopting the M1 Garand. One such weapon proposed in the trials was the 'Bang' rifle as covered in a previous episode (link below), and the Vickers Pedersen was another.
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Пікірлер: 108

@derekp2674 Жыл бұрын

Thanks Christian and team. It is amazing to see how complicated that design is. I am not surprised that it was never adopted. Sometimes, the optimism of companies putting forward novel designs far outweighs the possible utility of those designs. Collection item XIX.852 is, of course, another example of that issue, ho hum.

@Chiller01 Жыл бұрын

I can imagine trying to maintain that rifle in the field. The folks worried about wasting ammunition are rarely those that are facing incoming rounds.

@cliffordbuttle4529 Жыл бұрын

Never seen a angers german😅

@michaelwright2986 11 ай бұрын

I haven't seen the original reasoning, but I wonder if it was more about logistics than cost. Use up all the ammunition in the first half hour of battle, thanks to semi-automatic feed, and then where will the re-supply come from? As I say, I don't know if that was the stated reason, but it seems like a reasonable concern.

@18robsmith Жыл бұрын

Man at Vickers do say when looking at a Lugger "I'm sure we can make it even more complicated and even more expensive". Man from ministry do say "Well, you managed that, but it's now far to complicated and far too expensive".

@andrewfischer8564 Жыл бұрын

winchester lever actions use toggle locks

@SnoopReddogg Жыл бұрын

Some of these Vickers made versions of the Pederson made it to Australia on the civilian market in the 60s. I've seen them advertised in old 'Australian Outdoors' magazines

@thomasnesmith5426 Жыл бұрын

Great job Christian! Fantastic presentation of the firearm. It is great to see Royal Armouries expanding their cast so to speak.

@RoyalArmouries Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the feedback Thomas

@eps200 Жыл бұрын

@@RoyalArmouries Be neat if other departments occasionaly show up.

@Marcomies Жыл бұрын

Nice video as always. Could you please include the name of the firearm in the titles of these videos? It would make searching information about a specific firearm easier and simplify things when you are looking for an old video of this growing series.

@tarmaque Жыл бұрын

A fair number of people here seem to not understand what "lubricated case" means. It isn't an oil, but rather a very specific kind of wax. That wax only liquefies and lubricates under the temperatures and pressures of firing the cartridge. Just handling the unfired cartridges feels more like handling lacquered Russian steel case ammo. They're smooth, and not sticky at all. That said it isn't an ideal solution to the problem.

@u4ia_fubar_75 Жыл бұрын

You and Jonathan have the best job in the world, after fighter pilots😄. Awesome video👍

@richardnicklin654 Жыл бұрын

Was this gentleman developed for SOE? His name does start with “Wel”.

@RoyalArmouries Жыл бұрын

If we told you that we would would have to kill you.

@aferguson850 Жыл бұрын

Good to see you back!

@jally8638 Жыл бұрын

Wellard sounds like it couldve been a gun factory, nice work Christian

@Manco65 Жыл бұрын

Yes very well done.😎👍

@howardchambers9679 Жыл бұрын

He doesn't look Wellard but I wouldn't want to rile him 🙄

@jonathantatler Жыл бұрын

Brilliant Christian, great presentation of a rare curio. Good to see the Royal Armouries broaden their appeal.

@ferdberffle Жыл бұрын

That rifle is obviously NOT Squadie proof, lol

@shadowjack239 Жыл бұрын

It would be in bits as soon as your back was turned ;p

@redbasher636 Жыл бұрын

Is Johnathan alright? Assume he's taking a day off.

@gratefulguy4130 Жыл бұрын

No Jonathan no peace!

@LUR1FAX Жыл бұрын

He's just out to tea.

@kenshiku Жыл бұрын

Because Jonathan is the only person that works at RA...

@redbasher636 Жыл бұрын

@@kenshiku Never implied that, just was wondering if he was taking A day off

@RevanAlaire Жыл бұрын

Even though it failed to get adopted by any military power, I can't help but love the Pedersen Rifle. Though that may just be my weakness for toggle locks.

@tenofprime Жыл бұрын

I know the feeling, there is just an element of being able to see all the operational bits as it fires that makes toggle locks cool.

@TheSkipjack95 Жыл бұрын

Adolf Furrer, is that you ?

@mulgerbill Жыл бұрын

You've probably seen this already but a rewatch never hurts for a toggle lock fan kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fKqAdLByzcvViZs.html

@capt.bart.roberts4975 Жыл бұрын

I don't really like large bits of gun flying towards my face.

@RevanAlaire Жыл бұрын

@@capt.bart.roberts4975 Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons mentioned in a video where he got to shoot a Pedersen rifle that you really don't notice the toggle action moving when firing.

@avp5964 Жыл бұрын

Wow didn't know a Pederson carbine existed, that's an unobtanium dream gun. Thanks for the video!

@axesofebil Жыл бұрын

Great to see new faces behind the camera! Keep up the stellar work!

@Alternboy Жыл бұрын

Yeay Christian! Fantastic work.

@r2crowseye Жыл бұрын

You do know there's 3 minutes of black screen at the end of the video, yeah?

@garethh6962 Жыл бұрын

Very good narrators at the Royal Armories good vid Christian.

@EarlSoC Жыл бұрын

One of my favorite rifles. Sleek and scifi while still being a trusty wood rifle.

@cheutho Жыл бұрын

"We don't know how this got here, it just appeared one day"

@neutronalchemist3241 Жыл бұрын

Pure toggle locking is VERY tricky. It takes really too little, in terms of angle between the two pieces of the lock, between "too much locking, the rifle doesn't cycle" and "too little locking, the case head separates".

@parallel-knight Жыл бұрын

I wish we stuck with the Farquhar Hill rifle and developed it for ww2. I think the webley 1913 semi auto pistol should’ve been fully adopted also if they made the bren belt fed then it could’ve been the best Gpmg.

@brickproduction1815 Жыл бұрын

Ah the Pederson rifle!

@nonsibi1087 Жыл бұрын

Thanks, Christian. I have one minor note you may wish to investigate concerns the adoption of the Pedersen system by foreign governments following the British & American trials (& rejections). Judging from the US ARMY reference collection held at Springfield Armory National Historic Site (US National Park Service), the Pedersen was developed into an infantry rifle by the Japanese army. At least one example, picked up at the end of WWII by the US ARMY, exists in the Springfield Armory collection. The curator there, Alex MacKenzie, is the one to speak with.

@The3Rich3 Жыл бұрын

Such a great presentation of a firearm I had no idea even existed. Is there one on display at Leeds?

@dekk_kko Жыл бұрын

But it's so beautiful!

@iangreenhalgh9280 Жыл бұрын

I don't see why you need lubricated ammo considering the Vickers MG used a toggle lock and didn't need lubricated ammo.

@campbellharris8999 Жыл бұрын

It's because it's a delayed blowback system. As such it doesn't have as much extraction force as a gas or recoil operated locked breach design and cartridges have a tendency to stick. The solution is to either lubricate the cartridge or flute the chamber so some of the gas "floats" the fired cartridge out if the chamber. It's what Christian was trying to explain with the luger comparison but he kind of left out a explanation of blowback.

@calvingreene90 Жыл бұрын

It's not locked it is a delayed blowback. The hard was lubricant did a really good job of preserving the ammunition.

@sinisatrlin840 Жыл бұрын

Would like to se mud test with this one. I would bet that one grain of sand in chamber or in that high precision toggle would stop it. Lubricated munitions, should one install oiler like on Breda.

@Manco65 Жыл бұрын

Not surprised as that cartridge was also an early possible chambering for the M1 Garand. And iirc the capacity would have been 10 instead of 8. Very odd caliber wise as in all cases the US Army chest beating forcing the .30caliber diameter. And now finally a .277/6.8 although suped up quite a bit. I can about imagine an alternative history with a .276x45 or something similar in a slightly lighter and trimmer SLR/FAL with a 25 to 30rd magazine. But unfortunately that wasn't the case. I know I'm going down a rabbit hole but I'll also say I've come to prefer the L1A1 pattern grip and optional longer stick than the average metric FAL. Probably due to me being 6'2".

@stamfordly6463 Жыл бұрын

Don't forget that the FAL/SLR was originally designed for .280 which both the British and the Belgians decided was about perfect. But the Cousins do tend to get wedded to ideas and go to frankly daft lengths to maintain them. At one point they wouldn't look at anything less than .30 cal, now all rifles have to be carbines. So because everything has to be a carbine these days and 5.56 from an M4 barrel wastes a significant amount of the cartridge's potential they've gone and decided on a new 6.8 to get the much same effect as they could from simply going back to full length M16 barrels. Perhaps in a few years time a full length version of that new 6.8 will emerge and we'll finally be able to say "We bloody told you so back in 19sodding50."

@nerd1000ify Жыл бұрын

I think it was Churchill who said that you can always rely on the Americans to do the right thing... After they've tried *everything* else.

@bob445566DE Жыл бұрын

I wonder if a flutet chamber would have been a viable solution to the issue of it needing lubed cartridges.

@F1ghteR41 Жыл бұрын

Revelli's patent was still very much in force at that point in both the US and the UK; it only expired in the forties, if Google Patents is to be believed.

@ludditeneaderthal Жыл бұрын

It would, but such would make production even more expensive in that period (compared to "just ream it"). As it was already a production cost nightmare, lubing was considered the path to go. The lubrication (in case you didn't know) was a high temperature wax coating, quite "dry and solid" at pressure temperature conditions humans can endure. As such, it didn't pick up grit and grime like oil or grease would. However, I'd bet that also added a build-up issue in chambers and leade with extended/rapid firing. "On paper" a fascinating design, but not incredibly "real world" friendly as a mid century military arm, especially when one considers it was pretty much married to the Pederson cartridge, as the US retention of the .30-06 round took it out of the competition, while even the Johnson and (cringe) Thompson rifles transitioned to the .30 trials.

@MrX-pj1dy Жыл бұрын

I thought it was the American made T1E3 Pedersen, are the British made Pederson and the American made the same or is there little differences between the two

@zoiders Жыл бұрын

Ian from FW got hold of some .276 to test a Pedersen. I am assuming the parent case is something still made today.

@michaelmoorrees3585 Жыл бұрын

I saw that video. That was a couple of years ago. The same mechanism, as the one Pedersen sent to the US trials. The Garand was a better, simpler, choice.

@tarmaque Жыл бұрын

The .276 Pedersen did not have a parent cartridge, which was part of the problem. It was developed by Pedersen specifically for his rifle. In size it is most similar to the 6.5 Carcano, but I don't know if you could form .276 Pedersen out of it. Possibly. The 6.5 Carcano is longer, but also uses a smaller bullet. Also the .276 has a significantly sharper taper. Other than that they aren't a very comparable cartridge. The Carcano shoots a heavier round nose bullet, while the .276 shoots a lighter spire point at higher velocity. Probably the closest modern cartridge to the .276 Pederson in performance is the 7-08 Remington, which is more powerful because of higher pressures and a bigger diameter case. Note that the US military is switching the the SIG .277 Fury, which is basically a 7-08 Remington with a _slightly_ smaller bullet or just a .276 Pedersen with a slightly larger case. (And much higher pressures.)

@zoiders Жыл бұрын

@@tarmaque Thanks for mansplaining that in American fella but the fact remains that the brass came from somewhere so it definitely has a round that can be used as a parent cartridge. Outcomes. Not speculation based on trying to be a know it all.

@MartinMcAvoy Жыл бұрын

I think that the £250 cost per rifle included the R&D and tooling to hand build a couple of examples. In the early 1930's an average annual salary was £165 pa and a terraced house could be bought in London for £400. The actual production costs might have been considerably more than a Lee Enfield but that would have made a massive difference to the firepower of an infantry platoon. The British later bought 1000s of Tommy guns, which were never very cheap!

@TrooperClerk 11 ай бұрын

I betcha he’d be giddy to fire a Pedersen rifle!

@calvingreene90 Жыл бұрын

A good but expensive rifle.

@capt.bart.roberts4975 Жыл бұрын

That wouldn't pass the Mk.1 infantryman test!

@michaelguerin56 Жыл бұрын

That mechanism would be even more difficult to operate during summer training or fighting, given the dust kicked up by road vehicles. Absolute disaster. There is a quote, as I recall, to the effect that Pedersen would never use one part to do a job when he could use two or three parts instead.

@gerry343 Жыл бұрын

That toggle mechanism raring up in front of your sight line would be disconcerting !

@30AndHatingIt Ай бұрын

John Pedersen is probably the unluckiest gun designer of all time. WW1 ended a few weeks before his bolt-action-to-semi-auto-action device could be fielded, then almost had the US and UK both adopt his rifle (worries about the ammo were proven to be FALSE, by the way), then I think I remember hearing he ran into some trouble making the M1 carbine during WW2.

@AlexanderWerner Жыл бұрын

Good debut, Christian!

@Dreju78 Жыл бұрын

It's his second time presenting.

@mannywilliams6409 11 ай бұрын

I believe the saying is that it just has too many fiddley bits.

@yutro213 Жыл бұрын

What did HAPPEN with Jonathan??!😰

@yutro213 Жыл бұрын

@@bebo4807 OOh, impressive, I hope he comes back alright, especially from Ukraine.

@KnifeChatswithTobias Жыл бұрын

Would've been a great sporting rifle but lubricated ammunition is probably the first non-starter. And then just way too complicated and moody

@krockpotbroccoli65 Жыл бұрын

Wrong place and time. Not much disposable income in civilian pockets at the time of the depression.

@KnifeChatswithTobias Жыл бұрын

@@krockpotbroccoli65 , very true! Pretty much had everything going against it. But it was still cool!

@krockpotbroccoli65 Жыл бұрын

@@KnifeChatswithTobias I would love to see some enterprising company rework the Pederson so it doesn't need specialized ammo, but such a project would never get taken up by most lean modern gun companies. Too much intricate manual machining and constant QC.

@gerrypowell2748 Жыл бұрын

Yer,complicated😳

@OsX86H3AvY Жыл бұрын

your content is great but i wish so much yall would record in 4K...the Royal Armouries should be able to spring for a 4K recorder....it would add so much to videos like this with the level of detail of these relics that could be shown

@adjones3937 Жыл бұрын

Your only Wellard 'cos you've got a gun!

@terry7907 Жыл бұрын

Where is Jonathan?!

@samholdsworth420 Жыл бұрын

He's busy getting knighted by the king lol

@derekp2674 Жыл бұрын

I hope Jonathan is having some well earned holiday. If not, perhaps Christian and the the media team might have incarcerated him somewhere in the dungeons beneath the Leeds museum.

@JohnHughesChampigny Жыл бұрын

Who?

@jonathanferguson1211 Жыл бұрын

@@JohnHughesChampigny No idea.

@jonathanferguson1211 Жыл бұрын

@@derekp2674 I was thanks Derek, well, a bit of holiday and a bit of business. Back now though, in fact recording tomorrow.

@capt.bart.roberts4975 Жыл бұрын

At quick fire, massed Lee-Enfields sound like machine guns, two ranks. It is remarked on by both German and British sources.

@capt.bart.roberts4975 Жыл бұрын

The old man said they sound like tearing sheets.

@j.robertsergertson4513 Жыл бұрын

Where's Jonathan?

@scroggins100 Жыл бұрын

For your average Tom, its too complicated and too many bits to loose in the dark.

@RedZeroInferno Жыл бұрын

Where's Jonathan >:c

@1joshjosh1 Жыл бұрын

Neat-0 Edit: that was intended to be a positive comment.

@zoperxplex Жыл бұрын

Can you imagine millions of these rifles firing billions of bullets? That is what would have been required of it in the Second World War or, in other words, a quartermaster's nightmare given it's sketchy action.

@noahwail2444 Жыл бұрын

Not realy GI-proof... ;o)

@essex3777 Жыл бұрын

Who are you? And what have you done with my precious Johnathan?

@salty4496 Жыл бұрын

@petriew2018 Жыл бұрын

Pederson may have been the greatest gun designer ever, if you just look at it from a mechanical perspective If you consider literally anything else.... yeeeah.....

@pyeitme508 Жыл бұрын

@malcolmtaylor518 Жыл бұрын

The rifle was rejected on the basis of using waxed rounds. Would this really have been critical in the European theatre where the army were probably getting desperate for a decent automatic rifle. We British were so tardy in getting to grips with hardware. Great rifle, leaving the troops with their bolt actions against an enemy armed with assault rifles.