Agree entirely. The point that irks me the most is about the netcode. There is no logical reason you should take status buildup when the game realizes you took no damage.

I do miss the 6 player cap, that’s for sure.

It's HELLA upsetting watching all the great pvp potential go to waste...I'm still salty that the OPEN WORLD souls game was cut to 4 players when the much Smaller gamers had 6

You cannot convince me that maintaining an active pvp playerbase doesn't positively influence dlc sales

Seeing the absolute half-stuck bandaid of a patch that 1.05 was, I can totally see why you made this video, Scott.

I don't know why so many people are dismissive of the fact souls PvP COULD be good, I mean what would be taken away from the game if they just had more polished multiplayer interactions at the very least? Why are so many people against the idea of people just being able to do souls PvP????? Also this video was very well narrated and I can tell you are very passionate about this subject

Scott Jund is one of the men of all time

It's just painful. We all want it to be good. All of us who participate in PvP are willing to compromise a lot. But they keep taking from us. First it was solo invasions, then it was invasions at all, because you're lucky if you find them. And now, we've waited 3 months for a patch that did nothing but take away a tool to deal with something that now has no counters. We're taking more and more shit because we love this game. But how long until this game reaches an acceptable balance?

Props to Best Souls 2 for being the only game without phantom status buildup, and all it took was a completely separate game engine. I often see people claiming that they don't care about the PvP, and that PvE shouldn't be "ruined" for PvP balancing's sake which is a pretty common sentiment - it's fine as it is, leave it alone, don't touch it and mess it up. Except the PvE in this game is broken as all hell. Flails and Axes both being so universally bad as a weapon class isn't a PvP problem, it's a PvE problem. More often than not the two are related issues. When the basic Club is literally just 15-20% worse in damage than any other hammer in the game, that's not just a PvP problem, it just becomes a totally useless weapon. There are so many others that are just like this, in so many other weapon classes - not even weapons that are obviously meant to be bad like the Broken Straight Sword/Hilt, just... random stuff that's worse than other weapons with nearly identical movesets. People aren't just asking for BHS to be nerfed because they're sweaty PvP nerds but because they believe it fundamentally breaks the game just like the game would be broken by a sword with 300 base damage. Between the broken OP weapon arts and the uselessly UP weapon arts going side by side, the dominance of dual wield status effects, and so much more - even two handing weapons is bad as Scott has made videos on before, you literally get like 3% more motion value damage over 1 handing and 10% more poise damage. Again compare this to DS2 where twohanding often had 20% motion value damage and the poise damage went through the roof. These are just simple changes, obvious changes, and it's insulting that From refuses to even balance the PvE experience that they clearly favor so much over their PvP, much less the actual PvP itself.

I would love to see PvP-centered covenants. That's the biggest thing that I missed from Elden Ring and I'm very curious as to why it wasn't added. There are tons of opportunities to add covenants and, hell, you run through the questlines for them: Bloody Fingers, Recusants, Lord of Frenzy... It would just be so easy to add.

I wonder if having a PVP element in a game discourages people for waiting for the game to go on sale? Personally for a lot of single player games I am waiting for I will hold off until a sale unless I am super invested in the product, but for games with competitive multiplayer elements I am less likely to wait because I want to take advantage of a younger multiplayer scene, especially with a unique gameplay mechanic.

Deathloop did it’s darnedest to introduce the invasion system to a Dishonored-style first person stealth shooter. I ended up playing the shit out of that for the like, one week before it entirely died. Way more than I played the real campaign. There were serious issues that will never be fixed cause the game just didn’t do that well, but hell if it wasn’t seriously good fun a lot of the time. I’d love to see more successful attempts at this type of multiplayer

It’s a legitimate tragedy that Elden Ring PvP turned out so bad. I got into Dark Souls very late in 2019 and even with the stupid hitboxes and bad connections, covenant interactions in DS3 were some of the most fun I’ve had in any video game ever. Elden Ring’s combat mechanics set the game up to be the best PvP experience in the series but FromSoft has done everything in their power to reverse all the good decisions made over the course of the Dark Souls series and emphasize the broken aspects that were always aggravating to begin with.

most based man alive?!

The myazaki shuffle into a charged yoinky sploinky is a true combo

This kind of mirrors the situation with traditional fighting games from japanese developers. It's common for them to have poor netcode, in part because japan is smaller and has better internet infrastructure than somewhere like the US. A lot of problems get solved for you when you can assume the network is pretty reliable and under a certain threshold of ping. Even then, they should still be aware of these core issues after so many years, so it seems like they probably just don't care enough to fix them.

It's not just the PvP, not just the invasions being bad. Every other aspect you can think of, there's a problem; one good concept or mechanic for each bad one. And the interesting things that could be built upon in the next game is dropped instead. It feels like Pokemon of all things. For instance: Covenants. Introduced in Dark Souls 1 and it had neat ideas, like receiving increased power for certain spells by indulging more in that covenant. Then Bloodborne released and pretty much disregarded all of that; instead it focused more on having feuds between each Covenant, so even if you're summoned as a co-operator, you could become an adversary instead, a really neat idea that could've also been developed further. Instead, with Dark Souls 3, the only covenant that has that potential is the Mound-Makers, and even then you're better off aiding other covenant invaders or standard Black Phantoms, because if you kill them, the Host and their Cooperators will run you down much more easily. Elden Ring removed the consequences of covenants (of which there were few) and it's just as Demon's Souls was, with Blues that can come in to rescue hosts. Fromsoft could've instead followed through with Dark Souls 2 (Covenant of Champions) and Bloodborne (Lumenwood Kin and Blood Beast runes), and made covenants an actual important pact, with upsides and downsides, as well as PvE impact. But no, instead we got watered down mechanics with Elden Ring. They could've reworked World Tendency into something more pallatable, because it's a really interesting concept, but no. They could've introduced Wex Dust to at least make it more easier to find matches when the online population dies down, but no. They could've added back the Small White Soapstone to help random players with specific encounters (think Lansseax or runebears in the Mistwood), but no. They could've added perfect blocking, which is a skill-based mechanic, that could be used against every single enemy, instead of considering the parry the same thing, which can only be used against a relatively small amount of enemies, but no. They could've done so, so much, so many things that they have already done before, and have seen the community want, ask, and do before, but no. From Software would rather make a very simple but very safe game with a lot of audiovisual appeal in order to appeal to a wider market, rather than doing their best, using all the knowledge they've learnt over more than a decade, and making something daring yet excellent. It just feels like a cash grab - a great game, to be sure, absolutely - but somehow not as impactful as previous games. I was hoping that Elden Ring would've been that something daring yet excellent, due to its longer development cycle and apparent higher budget. I still hope that it can become that something with updates, but it doesn't seem likely, due to From's history. And I still hope that Elden Ring raised enough revenue as to finance a new game, one that can be that aforementioned something excellent.

Thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. I'm new to Souls games and, as shocked as I am at Elden Ring's terrible PvP implementation, I'm even more shocked at how many OG Souls players reflexively defend it. We need more veterans like you calling it out, as whiny noobs like me are easily dismissed with a "git gud" drive-by. Keep it up!

I really like knowing how other players got into souls pvp, most of the time everyone's first interactions with invaders were unforgettable: In demon souls when i first got invaded it was by a guy with Scrapping Spear that broke all my shit, that moment scared and amazed me so much (also annoyed me, breaking players shit wasn't a fun concept never from and we're glad it got taken out, ) that a player could come antagonize me, so i tried doing it and for some reason i tried putting red signs around (didnt really know how to actually invade at the time lmao) and after doing it on latria i got summoned as the old monk once and damn, a game where i can play a villain in someone else's story is such a fun and unique concept, taking a character build vs others creates such interesting stories and in elden ring with the moutain of toys it was so fun theorycrafting builds (but unfortunately after we had an initial blast with the game the rashes started showing). People use the "They're a cunt that invades people to grief others arguments" and i GET where they are coming from, these people are always there, but i can 100% confirm to you that the overwheing majority of the players just want that completely unique experience, while the griefers will simply find the next game to troll... Anyways, thx for the video Scott, your work is always appreciated, be it BHVR or Fromsoftware we all just wish the companies listened a little bit to us 😭.

One thing I was really excited about Elden Ring is that it was my first time playing a FromSoft game where I could actively participate in the PvP at the same time as everyone else. I've done invasions and been invaded in the other souls games but this was different. I got to try duels, invasions and had some amazing times. But to see what the PvP in Elden Ring has turned to (one shots, BHS & RoB spam, AFK farming, etc) is disappointing. I'm also sad that it isn't getting the attention and love it deserves and it breaks my heart to see PvP on PC die with the seamless coop mod coming out. I hope that one day FromSoft give the PvP in Elden Ring a good polish and if/when it happens I'll be jumping right back in.

Because if they fixed PvP, then the Miyazaki Shuffle will no longer exist, and that would make Miyazaki sad.

"The incredibly unique formula" me having flashback to Runscape and the horror of seeing a white dot pop on your mini map while in the wildness.

DS2 is the only Souls game where I actually consciously worked on pvp builds to see how they'd play out. It just felt better than 1 and 3.

Thank you for this video Scott, and thank you Vaati for the retweet. Someone with Vaait's platform echoing Scott's sentiment is huge.

The main thing about the netcode is that it applies just as much to the pve and co op, which fromsoft seems to be putting a lot of bias towards. But instead of fixing issues they tack on little things like no solo invasions and it doesn't make any sense. Arguments (bad arguments, but arguments all the same) can be made that pvp isn't important in these games, but when the co op is also so heavily damaged, it really puts fromsofts motives into question.

Something I don’t understand is why DS1 had such a long lasting pvp community, even though the total fan base was way smaller, and the technical and balance aspects weren’t great. I literally played DS1 pvp for 4 years and it basically didn’t die off until DS3 came out. Now it feels like ER has died already and it’s only been a few months.

It is honestly quite amazing that there is a dedicated pvp scene at all.

ER is my first souls game and I fell in love. Did 3 play throughs and then started dueling and very quickly I ended up spending more hours on duels than pve. I’ve never had a multiplayer experience like this where I can customize my character and create infinite builds. After doing literally 3000+ duels over the span of a few months playing almost every day, I’ve become intimately aware of the core mechanics and thus it’s flaws. This game will never be balanced purely because of the infinite build options and that’s what makes it great, the variety. What has killed pvp is that 90% of the community issues and complaints could be easily implemented without reworking any of the systems of the game, simply changing some variable values would do the trick. Make bhs cost way more fp and stamina so you can’t spam it, and while it’s still strong, it’s an easy fix that doesn’t require any major changes. A flat pvp dmg reduction of 15-25% would also be easy to implement and would help increase the ttk. Carian slicer should do max 200 dmg instead it does 600 on a normal mage build. Even if they don’t want to put a lot of effort into balancing, there’s no excuse when so many of these issues could be fixed so easily. The net code would require much more investment to fix so I understand that not being touched, but pretty much everything else is unforgivable. I’m so sad I joined the community in its darkest hour, and I’ll never get to experience the glory of souls pvp that I’ve heard so much about. Still love this game, and I’ve had a ton of fun pvp’ing or else I wouldn’t have sunk so many hours into it, but disappointed that the pvp community basically got spit on by fromsoft this time around. If the Arena’s DLC or a giant pvp balancing patch doesn’t come ASAP, the game will truly die.

I would reckon the reason they don't fix their netcode, is because they simply can't. Whatever they might be doing for netcode might be buried under a decade of spaghetti code, with any attempt at unraveling it making the whole thing fall apart. If Fromsoft is reliant on reusing old game assets, I can only assume they are reliant on using old codebases too. And something about their old codebases could just be really flawed and truly not worth the monumental effort it would take to fix or replace.

Ironically, DS2 had the best pvp despite being the one game in the series that Miyazaki himself didn't work on. I might also be a little biased because it had two of my favorite weapons out of the whole franchise in Bone Fist and Puzzling Stone Sword, though Santier's Spear also can't be ignored. Not to mention every weapon had a guard break which was borderline guaranteed to open someone up regardless of what shield they were using. Probably also helped that at some point bleed had gotten nerfed into the ground and hardly anyone was using it.

watched your vid on elden ring PVP, saw the part about the weird half second lag and wanted to check out this video, absolutely lost it when i heard the words "miyazaki shuffle"

The first video I saw from Scott’s channel was him explaining the lag in Dark Souls pvp which was about 5 years ago. Many years later I looked up a Huntress guide for DBD and found his video which was what got me hooked on his YT and Twitch. It’s funny how I somehow keep getting back to him for guides on janky games.

Super impressed with the production quality of this Scott, good shit.

I’d definitely argue that no matter how much you want it to be invasions aren’t PvP, they are PvEvP or however you’d like to think of that, the combat is great and unique but invasions are you choosing to take a detriment to prove you can be a challenging enemy in another persons path. You are looking for a variety of combat while providing a variety of experiences to the hosts.

In DS2 u couldnt apply status effects with ghost hits, a true masterpiece

As a somewhat new soulsborne fan i've honestly only had good interactions during invasions and either extremely tense or just stupid and funny encounters when i get invaded while playing with friends. I dont know what regular pvp is like but i honestly love how random and unique invasions can be, and i dont want that gone from future souls games

Ds2 was the game i played the most. Still had fun in pvp years after release and into ds3

I want to be invaded in all my games, honestly I want to do some majora's mask wedding quest or Romania ranch questline and have a red link drop in, throw a bomb at me, and kill me while I fail the quest because of it

On the bright side, ER cured my Souls PVP addiction I had for years. I can finally play different games. Win

If emergent pvp is the thing that makes PvP special, more effort needs to be made into smoothing out (and facilitating) the emergent gameplay. Instead, it's like they're afraid to add any structural support, because it might somehow confine or restrict the nebulous snowflake ideal of completely freeform pvp. And the end result of that is that pvp doesnt receive the gameplay structures it needs to progress into a more healthy, vibrant part of the game - one that's up to par with the community that enjoys it. Whether we're talking about systems that promote interesting encounters (ie new formats for invasions to happen), or the reward structure (where covenant rewards?), FROM acts like they're afraid to develop the system at all. I genuinely thought that arena + fleshed out covenant rewards would be a minimum bar for FROM to deliver at launch with Elden Ring, but while the PvE aspect is spectacular, the pvp system/structures actually feel like a step back.

Scott Jund always making banger vids

Finally, applause for addressing the real problems with the PvP of the entire series including this game instead of just "Bloodhound Step." All of the annoying adherents complain about "kazools" who need to "gut gudd" and blind or ignorant to the real issues that keep people away (one of those reasons being the PvP community in general). There's a very good reason the co-op mod is so popular and it's not because the people using it don't have a big enough horse epeen but rather they don't want to be partaking in such dumb contests in the first place, with all the shitty server and connection problems From has zero interest in improving to go along with it.

I was using exitlag to see if I could get better ping and the program showed that elden ring have only 2 main servers, one is US oregon01 and second US the dalles01. this maybe one of the reasons why mp experience is so bad

Online multiplayer is by far the most difficult technical aspect for a dev. The network engineers who can do that make over $200k, because they are in that much demand. I would imagine it’s difficult to find these ppl, but I would bet they have been trying to hire more of them. I doubt the problem is from being lazy and not caring, there’s some other stuff going on behind the scenes.

I started invading in DSR and DS3 again and they are surprisingly active.

Back in Demon's Souls, DkS1 and DkS2 days, i can accept Welfare servers, poor balance, etc. The company was tiny, so that's fine. But how the fuck has nothing improved after Bloodborne, DkS3 and Sekiro? Fromsoft is a big dev now, and they've made a fuckload of money, so why the shit do we have the same kind of pvp with zero improvement as we were still in 2009? Like HELLLLLLLLLO???

It's a sad moment to, in the same hour, see Scott make a video on the lack of longevity in pvp; As well as Rataskor make a similar video on ER lore

I think they took a huge step backwards in pvp from DS3 to ER. so much potential for covenants given the lore, various purposes to invade, guard, curse worlds, etc. DS1 had a great, under appreciated system for tying in pvp w/ the lore and main game.

I have a feeling they will have more single player only experiences like Sekiro

Chad Dark Souls 2. It's the best PvP, and one of the better PvE games.

DS2's PvE issue isn't that they devoted more resources to the PvP. They had a huge resource shortage in general, because Bloodborne/Project Beast was also in development for DS2's entire development cycle, on top of engine problems forcing them to scrap a lot of content. The DS2 we got was cobbled together from what they could get working in time.

Thanks for putting this all out there. I agree, and even as player who primarily does single player and co-op, the bad balancing and crappy connectivity/netcode has been a big frustration for years. I just want it to be better. I think if the PvP wasn't so janky in every game, I'd feel more encouraged to do it. Dark Souls 1 PvP could have been great, but the Backstab mechanic pretty much single-handedly ruined it. They could have patched the game to make a system more like DS2's or DS3's backstabs (even if that change was PvP exclusive) and it would have been an absolute game changer. But no. They didn't do shit.

Worst part is that theres no excuse for the atrocious Netcode anymore. GGPO and Strive netcodes are the living testament that online gaming can be done right if you put in the effort to give your playerbase the best possible experience.

Since i'm a PvE veteran, i really don't care about balancing of a game that's specifically made for PvE...however, throughout these games, it would seem that Hidetaka always had a secondary PvP element interwoven in the story..so i understand your take. Personally, i just think they try their best, but since it's a one time payment for these games, with no monetization not even for server space, so i just think they do the bare minimum as to not get totally hated, and they just move on since there's no monetary incentive other than just "doing it for the fans" :) However in the case of Elden Ring, this will not be excused, because they expected to sell 4 million copies, and they sold 13+...so they have extra god damn money to make a small group of devs that fix bugs and ballance sheit...i mean doing over triple the expected sales...there's kinda no excuse for them this time, so i'm with you guys. And yes, if there's no excuse after 13 years of this terrible code...please explain to me why they still don't have moving mouths on our character when saying "hey", when drinking flasks or taking damage or anything, blank expression which is even worse in Elden ring with the addition of shouts and sound for them your character looks weird af having closed mouth during a shout in a 2022 game...i was watching a game from fucking 2005 yesterday and it had moving mouths that were accurate :)) n Fromsoft doesn't care about that.............THEY DO HOWEVER care about animating the frenzied flame merchant's fingers to hit the correct notes on his guitar :D that deserved attention but not god damn important stuff i guess.

Dark Souls 3 after all the dlcs and patches had my favourite PvP and all it needed was a few minor things fixed and it would've been perfect. But I don't want to give up on Elden Ring PvP, it has so much potential, and there are so many awesome builds and playstyles you can do, so much more than the souls games. Also yeah remember me? I was the one calling out mages and quickcasting on your last vid lol 😂 nice to see you again scotty

Definitly agree with this. Fromsoft pvp is such a unique and fun pvp experience yet for some reason so many horrible imbalances hold it back. I dream of the day we see fromsoft pvp that isnt plagued with the same issues that’ve existed in the series for over a decade.

Just want to throw in my two cents about pvp. I'm not sure the validity of this, but if I remember correctly the point of invasions is that it provides the host with an extra challenge, and in effect the invader is treated like an enemy that is supposed to be defeated (so ultimately the invader is supposed to lose). Also, since invasions kind of require that the host is still playing the main game, wouldn't that mean that the only type of pvp that maintains the player base (in the long run at least) are duels? Finally, I think that the reason why pvp takes a backseat is because it ultimately fails to meet the core parts of souls borne games, those being (imo) the high but ultimately fair difficulty (which would contain variables in invasions, as difficulty varies based on the invader's skill) and the themes of death and change in the lore. The reason why pvp is kept us likely because it's just something that's expected so they have to throw it in. That being said aside from a couple things it looks like Elden Ring seemingly perfected the fromsoft formula, so I wouldn't be surprised if there only minor tweaks to the single player experience in the next game but massive changes to the multi-player

Yeah. It's very depressing. I guess we should have seen this coming when we learned you could only invade co-op players.

I agree with fundamentally every point you made in the video. My question is, what do we, as a community do to try and initiate a change in the game? Is there anything? Or are we screwed?

I'm with you there. Came to check on it after I heard of a recent patch, but looks like progress is nonexistent. Not just Elden Ring either, 5 months later and still no servers for their other games on PC. RIP souls pvp, I'll miss you.

I'm kind of impressed. They managed to combine the worst aspects of pvp from previous titles, make them even worse, and add new problems on top of that. Now we have: - DS1 poise - DS2 phantom range - DS3 quickstep - spell/wa spam - status buildup on dodges

Holy shit, thank you for making this video. I've been echoing these thoughts for years and it's so frustrating to hear people just say "Well, it's not a PvP game so you shouldn't expect it to be better." The fact of the matter is From Software is a company aiming to sell a product and if there's a part of that product that's bad, it's only going to hurt them. Adding PvP and not putting any effort into making it function well only serves to hurt the game. If they don't care to make it work, they shouldn't have included it at all. I can forgive Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1, and even Dark Souls 2 for some of their jankiness, but past that, it's no longer acceptable. They're not the same small quirky studio like they were back then. They're much bigger, have more recognition, and more experience. They need to be held to a higher standard. It feels like people are still living in 2011 and are just willing to accept mediocrity because "It's From Software, that's just how they are," which I find to be ridiculous. The game doesn't need to be perfect, but it can certainly be better than this.

Very interesting video. As someone who actively avoids the PvP of darksouls, including jumping off ledges as soon as I see the message appear, it’s always nice to hear people who enjoy it talk about it passionately. Personally speaking, I don’t think Miyazaki ever truly cared about PVP. He’s always been a “mechanics for story telling” kind of designer. Humanity, cooperation, invasions, covenants, they were all ways for him to tangibly tell a better narrative, from what I can tell. Now, they’re more like obligations because people want them but the people making the games don’t have interest beyond that obligation. Complete speculation but that’s what seems the most consistent reason why it’s always there, but nothings improved. I can’t say I cared about Elden ring enough to research anything about it, but I really couldn’t remember an in game reason why invasions are taking place in Elden ring. There’s no covenants, there’s no real reward when I was playing. It was just there.

If I were working for fromsoft, I would propose to have a place in elden ring with dedicated servers for pvp where you could do regular duels, 2v2, 3v3 and maybe even a complete free for all, the arena behind the giant jar in caelid would seem nice.

I wonder if some devs at Fromsoft are wondering about making these games Coop only. PvP is interesting, but I feel that the invasion-haters are louder than before. Which is funny considering invasions are less frustrating than ever now that it’s Coop invasions only.

Its crazy. I didnt like ds3 that much but seeing this footage makes me feel a bit nostalgic. Hope the servers come back up. Im done with elden ring.

Well made video scott. I, like you am a vet thats gone through all the motions. Ive experienced all the good and the bad. Why FS WHY?!?

seeing ye olde ds3 b roll footage brings me back

In my opinion, it's the mentality of people that is the problem. Toxic players will always find a way to break the game no matter what.

I think if they added cool rewards for PVP I would play it more...It sucks when you beat 3 players by yourself legitimately with no cheese plays, it should give you something cool...Stat boosts or unique weapons and armor

Well said Scott. Probably your best articulated video since even the Dota days.

My guess is FROM would love to improve the netcode for PvP but are at the limit of what is possible technically given how the rest of the game is coded. To get the netcode for a peer-to-peer fighting game right, and this is a very difficult problem, every system needs to be designed from the ground up with the purpose of optimizing for PvP, but Elden Ring was not designed that way. It would probably require them to redesign massive parts of their engine to fix the problems that have existed for 13 years.

It all begins and ends with the netcode. They don't care enough to upgrade and make it actually playable so I'll never even bother because it's just not an enjoyable experience for me regardless of how incredible the idea is.

If this taught me anything, it's to never buy into the hype for any game. Including fromsoft games. ER after the open world charm wears off, feels incredibly underwhelming after beating the game. The PvP is just so much worse than ds2-ds3 pvp, and as someone who mostly plays these games for PvP it felt like a huge disappointment.

I’ve been saying this about the status effects for years, dual vykes spear builds are what killed my interest in elden rings pvp… it’s just so insane that they include different damage modifiers yet they never once considered to add a player modifier that reduced madness buildup? Honestly it really does feel like there’s only a handful of people at fromsoft who care about the pvp.

Yeah you ever notice how the meaningful pvp patches come out around the DLCs

Dark souls PVP enthusiasts don't even enjoy Elden Ring's PVP, and yet they expect PVE players to welcome invaders for the plethora of fun experiences they claim to provide. I completely agree with this video, and were they to fix all this shit, I probably wouldn't hate the invasion mechanic as much as I do.

Apologize to DS2 right now!

PVP in Souls is an afterthought. It was slapped on because PVP capability sells titles to people who don't give a shit about anything else but proving their e-peen exists.

The excuse of x game had this issue and it took y time to fix just is nonsense to me and it’s really the only argument I ever hear. As you said this is the 6th game with PvP and invasions, things should be getting better not worse

i have said it time and time again, Myazaki is 100% not into pvp but they will add it for the sake of players, they even gave a try to a no pvp game and it succeeded all the same. When hidetaka Myazaki took a more back seat spot in dark souls 2 the game had way better PVP and summon system as a whole. Their patches on DS 3 and elden ring proves that they really just want to make an excellent game and release it, which they're excellent at there is nothing like playing these games and i say that after i played almost all souls like games. they don't fix VERY obvious issues, forget balancing...they went to fix bugs and they didn't fix some of the worst bugs in the game (2 minute dc and helmet swaps) i truly believe that if there was no backlash or community disappointment, they would just release the game as it is and never update it until a DLC drops. Their balancing is probably only behind blizzard in terms of how bad they balance their games, obviously this game is not PVP based game no matter how many times people try to convince others that it is, but its still unique and fun...also as you said, there is no excuse anymore with the sales of elden ring that they don't have dedicated coders, balance team etc. as a Fromsoft fan since DS 1 and i say that proudly, even though complaining about PVP is like complaining about the minigame "grognak the barbarian" not working correctly in fallout 4, its still sad, as their mini game is amazing and fun to play but DAMN do they make it hard to remain in enjoyment with it because of how much they don't care about it. i understand that business wise they earn NOTHING from PVP aside from small youtube leadaway for people to see the game, but yeah...i'm still disappointed that they don't care, at least we agree on something...DS 2 will forever be the best pvp. i'll still breathe the copium that the next patch will fix things but since DS 3 i stopped having high expectations of PVP. I understand your decision...but i will hope that you will be back after they do some good balancing...Copium.

I'd have thought it's obvious. It's treated like an after-thought because it IS an after-thought, to the majority of the community. I know we like to think we matter and we prop up the community after the pve players stop but we're just lying to ourselves to make ourselves feel better about caring about something more than most. The other half of the people who continue playing long after the majority stop are the speed runners, who play offline, and who do the same thing except they complain when they fix stuff as opposed to us complaining when they don't balance shit or fix exploits.

Sniper Elite 5, the newest one, released this year in 2022, has a very Dark Souls-esque invasion mode built into it, actually. Only other game with something like Dark Souls invading pvp.

dark souls 2 meta. i feel like they will make adjustments in pvp, especially if they add an arena.

Big brain take: let based ds2 man handle the PvP exclusively, while miyazaki handles the PvE.

I'm proud of you for making this video, son.

Heartbreaking but true. There's so so so much untapped potential to be had in this game.

I think many people view EldenRing as a live service game. But in my opinion, PvP is a bonus to this huge game. I feel the same way about EldenRing as I do about The Last of Us. Single player, plus multiplayer. Nor is this a game like Dead by daylight, Dead by daylight is clearly a PvP based game. If they want to develop a better and more continuous PvP scene for EldenRing they would have to start from the beginning as a live service game. Of course that's no excuse for Fromsoft not making more PvP balance patches, but I feel a little sorry for Fromsoft who is doing well with just the game itself + DLC in the terrible situation that AAA studios are greedily squeezing money out of even single player games these days. I am mainly a PvE player, so I don't have many complaints, but I understand that it is not enough for those who are mainly PvP players. My native language is not English, so there may be some grammar and words that are wrong, but this is my opinion.

I would have traded half the lands between for pvp to be better… take moutaintop of the giants, concentrated snowfield, and every lame dungeon out of the game, and fix the pvp- suddenly elden ring really is the best game ever made.

I was a pretty good invader in DS 3 during the early years, I had so much fun! I started giving up when I realized that no matter how good you play, all the odds will be against you: outnumbered, over leveled phantoms, infinite summons, friendly fire between invaders...... The final nail in the coffin came someday in 2019~2020 when it was ALWAYS me against usually 5 (with a summoned invader in the gank squad) abusing everything you can imagine: crossbow glitch, estus cancel, estus refilling, seeds popping up every time.... I tried some invasions in Elden Ring,but nah..... didn't went too far. From Software is against invasions. That or they think that everyone invading plays like Jeenine and other professional invaders.

Imagine if they put out a PvP centric game... that's the dream!

i quit too bro :(

Absolutely agree with your take. This was my first souls game, and I got addicted to pvp aspect of it. I went as far as possible and even got into the top 30 of pvp discord. The rules make this game more comparative, and that would be cool if not rules did it, but developers like in other comparative games. My take is that issues are not that difficult to fix! Lil bit less damage here, lil bit fewer i-frames there, fix helm glitch and similar stuff, and the game would be very much more playable without "rules" and "gentlemen agreement" conditions. I don't have any hopes for Fromsoftware, but If they wanted, they could improve it with not that much effort.

Amazing video, that gave me some serious emotional damage, for the good reasons. I too droped ER pvp, for me is unnaceptable having a netcode so bad in 2022 as you said in the video.

Ita not even just netcode. Changing the interaction style of hit detection during pvp would remedy nearly every issue in most circumstances

I agree. It's really sad, it's gotten to the point where it would be nice if fromsoft had worthwhile competition on some level that understood this aspect of their games and cared about it. Sadly, I think Elden Ring has proven that the formula just doesn't work for a long term experience without the multiplayer, we have by far the biggest, arguably best pve experience fromsoft has ever made, with the largest initial numbers it's ever had but the game is effectively in it's dying stages faster than any other game in this spiritual series. I think it's gonna be a solid 5 years or so before anyone who gives a shit does anything that comes from the understanding of what has made souls pvp a good thing in the series if fromsoft doesn't do anything about it now. Kind of sucks.

scott is the most nuanced voice in the community

The fact that they are out of order in the thumbnail trips my ocd.

These games are single player games with an asymmetrical mutiplayer element. Things are not supposed to be equal and balanced. Why their network is laggy and what not is a question for the ages and the only actual question to ask.

its appalling how the pvp seems to be getting worse with each new patch and entry into the series