It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious. Oscar Wilde

I agree, though I'd like to add that morally grey characters are fascinating to read, since we all know people who think the same as the characters (or we, ourselves, might agree with the characters). Psychologically, they're just...relatable, I guess? 🤷‍♀️

"Somebody woke up and chose controversy." Welp, that's the summary of my days. 😂

I heard it said when those who should be good choose evil or violence, the violent choose good over evil.

My favorite television series is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, a show chock full of morally grey characters. Regarding a paramilitary militia and terrorist organization called the Maquis, Sisko said "Do you know what the trouble is? The trouble is Earth-on Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. It's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the demilitarized zone all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints, just people-angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not".

Morally grey characters not only allow us as the audience to see things from a more nuanced perspective, but allow other characters to do the same. However that doesn't mean that the actions that these characters take should be condoned, only empathized with.

I also think that they tend to be more interesting to read because our concept of morality becomes more nuanced as we get older. Ask a child if it's wrong to lie and a majority of them will say yes; ask an adult the same question and most will say it depends on context and situation. Whether or not they align with our specific view on the world, seeing one of the characters live out a life where right and wrong are not so clear cut can be very cathartic for working out our own moral dilemmas.

There’s this song I can’t get out of my head called morally grey and it makes me love morally grey characters even more 😭

The morally gray takes more realistic actions towards improvement. In an ideal world, good wins, evil losses, happy endings all around. But that's not how the real world works. Granted, the exaggerated acts of violence are not a path anyone should take. But, it allows people who are victims, I assume, to feel a sense of justice against those who have wronged them.

I have many thoughts on this topic, and I think the point about disillusionment with societal structures is pretty spot on. That being said, I personally prefer my truly unbreakably good characters, who keep choosing good, even when breaking appears entirely reasonable. ie Kaladin (or Vash the Stampede, or Clark Kent or Goku)

Especially characters like Anita Blake, Rachel Morgan and Harry Dresden, who as their series progress go on to demonstrate what good leadership should look like, all the while they are honing their pragmatic ruthlessness.

One word that came to mind by the time this short was finished: "I'm Batman"

Something I have also noticed with morally grey characters. They are usually entertaining, either because of charm, humor, silliness, etc. Something I noticed about readers, they can forgive a lot of things, but not be boring.

I mean that's my reason for writing morally grey characters so nail on the head

Let's take this further, and note that morally grey characters are not a recent development. Crime fiction has had them since it first appeared--hardboiled crime fiction after WWI, with seemingly amoral characters who still display signs of a conscience and an ethical system--The Continental Op and Sam Spade, both creations of Dashiell Hammett. Then of course came Noir fiction after WWII, where the characters may be much darker than grey (hence the name belatedly attached to that type of story by the French). When we start to question the basic morality of the societies we live in, we will find it harder to believe in fully moral heroes, even if we still wish they existed. And such questioning of society tends to be cyclical--there's always some, but quite a lot more in certain eras. There was the so-called 'decadent' fiction of the late 19th/early 20th century, that had seemingly invincible villainous characters like Fantomas, who were then replaced by heroes who operated as if they were villains, like Judex, a character greatly resembling and prefiguring Batman (probably an influence upon Batman's creation), who attacked corrupt bankers. Zorro is morally grey in his original incarnation (before the movies), another influence on Batman. In the early Batman comics, he kills criminals--with a gun. That got whitewashed out. But there's always a morally grey aspect to him, stronger at some times than others. (His costume in the comics literally has a large grey component to it. Not usually in the movies, because black is cooler.) So yes, if we see a lot more such characters in fiction, that probably tells us something about how people feel about the world around them. But there will always be some, because that feeling never goes entirely away. And no society is ever entirely moral. Never has been, probably never will be. Because we're not. And we make the societies we live in. Fantasy is often quite idealistic, but not always. Michael Moorcock's Elric is morally grey, and a rather dark shade of grey. Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories--well, that speaks for itself, doesn't it? The myths and folktakes that inspired early fantasy fiction are morally grey, quite a lot of the time. And it's possible that if we could trace them to their origins, we'd find they came from times and places where there was great social upheaval, civil war, lawlessness, oppression of the weak. Robin Hood was morally grey in his early incarnation as a robber who took from the rich and kept it. People liked that he took from the rich. They wanted to do the same. They appreciated the dash and guts of highwaymen, but over time, the character got romanticized into a social crusader, which of course his real-life influences very likely wouldn't have been, anymore than the Australian bush rangers were. Heist stories are morally grey, because stealing is wrong, but we still like to see daring thefts--typically, the thieves are caught or killed, but sometimes they get away with it. And some of us want them to. Or we want them punished at the end, so we can tell ourselves we didn't really approve, even though we obviously did, or we wouldn't be enjoying the stories so much. Sometimes we have our cake and eat it too, by having the thieves steal from bad people, and somehow make things better for doing so. But what we really want is to see authority thwarted and outwitted. Even if only for a short time. It isn't about moral decay. It's about our recognition that social morality is often a hypocritical mask for social injustice. Not always, no. But there's never a time when that hypocrisy isn't there to be seen, and it bothers us. We still want safe orderly existences. We also want freedom. There's an unavoidable contradiction between those two innate desires. Very interesting discussion you had with yourself there. I have those all the time. :)

I didn't think of it that way, although it doesn't always apply. This concept of morally grey characters is characteristic of anti-heroes. What I like more and find much more compelling is the opposite - an anti-villain. One who is doing things like killing dogs or babies, however not without a good cause as if noone does that something worse would happen. Enacting justice in a morally grey way gives you a nice feeling as you see it as something done in a realistic way. However choosing injustice to avoid something worse gives you more sympathy for the character as well as makes you think where the boundries lie more in my opinion.

We've been on that train for quite a while, and it's been a wild ride. My favorite is John Constantine, but you have to admit Batman is no shining knight.

Oooh yess I love this take ! Although, I will say that morally grey characters have existed for a pretty long time, and its super cool that even in older media they tend to reflect a struggle with social ideals and ways of existing outside of a society's norms, even if they usually (but not always!) support whatever views were acceptable in their society.

I actually like well-written morally good characters way more than morally grey ones. They're tend to be realistic and work very hard to accomplish their goals. They mostly have same tragic backstories as morally grey characters, but after they choose different, harder path to their goal and it's interesting to see how they will accomplish it, when it's written well. It speaks to my heart when stories of morally grey characters often are cool, but don't have same emotional impact on me.

It depends, morally grey characters really only work when there is a good and evil interplay going on in the setting that allows the morally grey person to actually operate. Batman is a morally grey character, Commissioner Gordon is a Good character, bound by rules of society, and doing his best to uphold Justice. Batman's rouges gallery would be the evil that moves thru the world, breaking things, and sometimes operating just outside of Justice's reach, in that Batman steps in. But the thing is that the Grey character MUST have an internal moral system that guides their actions and almost nothing outside of it will make him change that system. This leads to, if the writer get it, a tension in the character where what wins out in a stress situation, that the answers are not easy to figure out and your moral system is tested.

Gotta love Star-Lord. lmao

That's definitely part of it. For me, I think it's also that I'm tired of the strict right and wrong, hero and villain boxes that characters are in that definitely doesn't match with our own reality very often, and how people are put in difficult situations that mean they have to make morally grey choices in times of stress and "bad times" (when you're hungry, you're probably going to steal food, but conversely if you live near a homeless camp, you probably aren't going to be able to help all of them and will feel guilty passing by without helping). So I think the popularity of these characters is a desire for a reflection of the more nuanced reality that many people deal with. The "right" choice isn't always clear. I love your videos, they're so relatable lol

Also, as a political scientist, what this says about democracy (especially in republics) is hilarious. NB: I am neither endorsing nor castigating any US candidates. I am merely observing the system.

Either we want license to be bad to the "bad guy" or we want to be the bad guy.

I mean, there's always been morally grey characters, just that it wasn't popular to like them before. If one looks at fandoms and fanfiction, morally grey and completely villainous characters are EXTREMELY popular to read about and ship with. What we're now seeing in published fiction is just the tip of the iceberg. Also, this is my longwinded comment to also say I agree with you! With everything going on in the world, we're definitely more disillusioned.

Morally grey is probably the most relatable? Firstly, they're fulfilling 'our' wishes - doing the kinds of thing we think about, but would never act on; and the concepts of 'pure' good or 'pure' evil makes for fairly one dimensional characters. Some times good people do awful things, and 'bad' people do good deeds - the trick (I think) to any morally grey character working, is that they operate within their own moral/ethical framework, one that happens to not fit in with the black and white morality of their given world? And maybe outside our own - but they must stay true to their internal compass ... and when they don't, hijinx ensue ... That being said, a truly 'amoral' character can be interesting ... but is hard to pull off. I'm not sure that they can be an effective protagonist, unless the arc is from (apparently) amoral to grey?

i really like that take! i also think it might just be that we don't like being told what to think of a character, and that we like it when they're flawed and relatable in that typical tragic flaw kind of way that so often goes hand in hand with being a bit morally grey

I really like to read and write characters that are either morally gray or have little to no morals. The main character in a book I’m working on, he has basically no morals. He does what he does to get payed. The book I’m writing is mostly a play on Hero saves the princess cliché

Side note: if we shouldnt like/root for them, they shouldntnbe so hot and likeable. Grey is favorite shade of man (ahem Dean Winchester).

Super love this take! Explains a lot 😊

I think what makes morally grey characters appealing is that them being flawed people makes them more human than a arbitrarily good/evil character with little depth. The fact that a morally grey character makes questionable decisions for certain reasons be it good or bad can add complexities to the character, making them even more intriguing to follow and try to understand their inner workings and thought process that makes them act the way they are. Also, giving that character a conflict to choose between doing what would be the right thing or acting in self interest at the cost of others would make them more compelling seeing how a conflict will bring out a character's true nature when pressed into a desperate situation. Unlike the typical good/evil characters, the morally grey ones can be the most appealing because they have a more flexible role and can fit into any narrative

It's partly a sign of moral depravity, too: People want to feel they're more upstanding than even a "hero."

That scene with Jasnah immediately turned her into one of my favorite characters ever. It's just such a trip to have her go, "You are too naive. We need to fix that. Let's murder some criminals. That will do it."

Morally gray characters set the perfect stage for tragic backstories and awesome plot twists- another reason why I love them (that and they usually smack the people I find annoying/rude in the books)

If you'll allow me to add to the controversy, this theme of taking down (preferably corrupt) people in positions of power is especially interesting considering the rules we expect of our morally gray characters to follow are usually just as arbitrary as those that put those people in power. What makes killing a dog that bit someone villainous and evil but shooting people who sell drugs just and even good?

Frodo fails. But yet he's a hero. That is all.

This is interesting. Personally, i do also like more morally grey characters that do things not necessarily in the name of justice, but out of pure panic, uncertainty, or the manipulation of another. Enough with the "Yes, grasp the orb" "No i shall not for i am of strong mind" and more of the collapse into sin, later progressing into a character arc of a struggle to return to normal, forever changed and never forgetting the time you killed an innocent man out of fear he would tell others of your dark secret.

Honestly, it's because so many authors write the bad person as feeling no guilt or like I'm doing this just because I can, while "good" people are written as having almost no flaws and not having something in them that makes them want to do something "bad" as if their whole personality is just pure good, however when it comes to the morally grey characters, it is easier to tell they have a conscience they know what they are doing is by no means sanctauted (sorry if I spelled something wrong), they know that people tend to do these things for reasons, it's simple. In one sentence this is what the world truly is, the world is not just black and white there is the morally grey that tends to be much larger than the black and white, get your head's out of the clouds, stop seeing everything as just two colors when there are the various shades of grey as well. (Sorry for the rant)

Interesting…this is a good point, but I always defined “morally gray” characters according to whether they cared about the greater good, and not whether they conflicted with the establishment. A lot of YA novels have teens resist totalitarian regimes (Hunger Games, Divergent, etc), but whether they do that because they want to help the people those regimes hurt vs just trying to get themselves and their loved ones to safety is a key factor. As well as whether they’re willing to hurt innocents or non-culpable people in the process.

I would hold a bit against the "themes of justice" here as oftentimes the actions these kinds of characters engage in are more in line with retribution than justice.

Morally grey characters DO the things most of us only THINK about doing.

I've finally started reading Daindreath's Assassin (and "thanks" to KLM that had me stranded overnight at Schiphol airport made good progress). So far, I'm firmly in team Vesha, though I worry that might reflect badly on me :o)

Morally grey character generally seem relatable usually, that or they are badass.

okay Im late so I doubt this will be seen but heres my guess: We as humans have a whole ton of emotions and personality including a lot of gray area. The "morally grey characters" or downright villains, are the epitome of this emotion. Bringing me into the second part of this statement, I beleive people are constantly looking for something to validate how theyre feeling or their personalities, and with these characters, they have that "something." and then we WANT to relate to that anyways thank you for reading my ted talk

I love morally grey characters because they're complex. People are not good or bad, they're both but at different levels. I love Sirius Black and Harry Potter's scene in the fifth film, when Sirius tells Harry we're both good and evil, but what defines us is the part we choose to show. Morally grey characters do with what they're given, but see the rot in society. They use it, play with it, but in the end, they want to destroy it. I think they're just deeply human in more ways than one. And yeah, maybe they're what we would like to be to stand against those who pretend to rule us, know better than us, but in the end, take advantage of us. I think maybe I love the rogues in fictions because they have the guts to say "No, I won't deal with that shit anymore". Our rulers are just rotten people in beautiful suits for the most part, after all 😅.

we also like tall dark and handsome, and morally gray, is included in the package, along with the abs and broad shoulders 💅🏻

I like morally grey, because I AM morally grey.. But also, I hate goody-two-shoes characters that don't do what needs to be done.

Morale of different people is different.

I'm writing a story with 11 main characters. Their morality is a spectrum from 'innocent and pure and i hope he doesn't die' to 'pure evil, 0% remorse'. My favourite character (like a parent having a favourite child) is the chaotic-neutral one, who causes nuisance to both sides equally. Although he wouldn't qualify as morally grey. He does everything for fun rather than purpose (including murdering). All the morally grey characters would be the other 8. In a huge coincidence, the nicest, evilest, and the chaotic neutral are the three of my most fav characters. I killed the other 8 and let them survive. It also shows perfect balance :D My book is called 'War, Woe, and a Web of Lies'. I haven't published it yet- hope people like it :)

Well, who's up for calling in Batman?

She is so smart, I swear. If someone asked me that question I would say "Daddy issues. 100%" and then walk away

On a more cynical note, some people like the idea of characters that make the easier choices and still get the benefits of being a good person without having to do the hard, complicated, and often thankless work of being a good person. This isn’t to say that all people who like morally grey characters are like this, there are thousands of reasons to like morally grey characters. It’s just that I had to explain why I didn’t want a character who committed genocide to be redeemed and the person responded “well I identify as morally grey” and that colored (pun intended) my entire perception from that point on.

I love these videos🙂

I just think the Morally Gray trend is because it's relatable and wish fulfillment kinda. Since none of us are saints, the morally gray character is more of what we would do if we aren't constrained by social norms.

What they're describing isn't a morally grey character. It's a good person with bad manners.

I like to see a full orchestra of characters. I actually feel that the saintly characters are now LESS written about than the morally grey characters. ALL EXIST IRL. And all effect the world, so should be represented. But many cynics don't believe the really good characters exist, whereas everyone seems to agree that the morally grey ones do. I work in a hospital and have met many saints, and I actually feel that it is THEIR group which is under represented in fiction. Sadly, this may be because such people usually have little to no power.

That does make so much sense

This but with con artists PLEASE! Both the MMC and the FMC

Not what I would first think of but it does make sense. I personally like morally gray characters bc they aren’t as predictable as the typical hero story. They could mess up and that’s a more interesting story and also can he more relatable. I think we also like having someone who doesn’t have insanely high standards bc then they feel more human. It’s a lot easier to relate to a person who makes mistakes or does the wrong things for the right reason instead of someone who can do no wrong

I mean characters are people, and people are morally gray. Morals are at least in many parts subjective. So of course we have grey!

😂😂❤.. I am into Morally Grey...if I'm into any that take anothers life...yet stories run so much deeper than the surface than most human type beings current capable awareness and even depths that most even brilliant human type beings minds are yet able to comprehend or detect or un puzzle and re puzzle. There are so many beings that are still undetected by the races that they live amongst and can also communicate in many ways without detection...like, Humans hear, "Oh yeah, that's the key card to my office building." Yet what was really said is, "You have gained all access and are welcome to join us on the next level..." a human hears a normal conversation but, to non humans, whom are also experiencing there lives and own stories, they have now done something huge that seems like a nothing type conversation. Beings throw there voices too.... and cloak their minds and bodies, depending on who they sense that's near like are they dumb or trust worthy or .... We live in a Huge story book you can say...and so many mind blowing stories that most humans are no where near being ready to have in there awareness, are still happening all the time. 😉😇🥰 Want me to write some fun romance fantasy (but likely real for those who know) kinda books? Like maybe a story about the Female "Jesus " that came to our present time to finish what her male counter part "the jesus most all think they know, but some really know) had not done for all, like save them all...The New Queen, as shed be referred to... (though she is truly one ofnthe most ancient beings ever) would say something like, "we don't save by dying for them, we save by teaching them that death is the lie and we show them how to live and transform in a balanced life, without disturbing those being that are still learning and so young fresh and innocent..." she is kinda the most incredible Heroin, that's ever been a Heroin. 😂❤ ....but she came as a human and had to live amongst them to learn what she had to, to complete her mission...dang, she even has to go through many of the forgettings just to insure she didn't give herself away as a child... Do you think All is just the Earth 🌎 and it's inhabitants? 😅 ALL, is ALL. All Times, All Spaces, All Places, All Experience having beings, that have ever been and will ever be... ALL ALL. YUP the REAL SHE... 👑... My mind is truly expansive...like deep is only one direction...😂❤🎉 ps. I LIKE Elizabeth Wheatley, she is cool. So, should I write stories? 😊 Real question too btw. - E.C. ☰ 🌹

What clean Fantasy books would you recommend? I am a bit all out of books. I have read them all. I really like high fantasy. On that note, how do you start writing? What do you recommend to people wanting to start writing?

Dang that was a great analysis

That is one type of morally grey charater. Assuming that the acts of violence are severe enough to make them morally grey rather than just a rebellious hero. I don´t think all morally grey characters have to follow that script. You could for example have the opposite of the rebellious character you describe here: someone in a position of power in an unjust system, who try to do good within the system, but inevitably do immoral things when defending and maintaining the system. There could also be a down to earth character, a fallible person who try to survive and maybe take care of their own family or something like that, but sometimes slip from the rightious path and commit immoral actions, due to desperation, human weakness or lapses in judgement.

Guess this explains why almost all the dnd characters I like playing the most are lawful neutral.

Because there are morally grey people and I might be one of them?

Does Daindreth's assassin have russian translation? I'd absolutely love to read it in my native language...

Meanwhile, over here: every Game of Thrones character adding at least one child to their body count... Here's my explanation. Think of all the perfect people you've met in your life. There's your answer.

So, how would you characterize Dirty Harry? Would he be morally gray or would he be assigned to a different category?

Hmmm. This is pretty much why I'm okay with Jin Guangyao's end in The Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation. He is a fascinating character with a moving backstory; but he crossed the f-cking line.

Tbh i just find them more entertaining. The trend of sanitizing our media to fit this american religious moral standard (and labeling everything else as "problematic"), is weird and shuts down a lot of creative freedom for storytellers. Morally grey somehow lets people sidestep a lot of the holier-than-thou criticisms people launch at media and lets characters keep their interesting flaws intact.

The first morally grey character I latched onto was one I didn’t realize was morally grey. Very sweet person but was often scamming the villains out of money. I didn’t question it since even the good characters in the show aren’t really following the law to a t.

I think it's also relatable, because who in real life is 100% good or 100% bad?

I am actually confused , In most romance novels when HE is TOTALLY in LOVE with HER , and everything is alright , someone stabs him and it feels like her fault .

when you said morally grey characters the first character I thought of was Sandor Clegane from Game of Thrones but he killed a kid and was sent to kill a dog in the first book so is he really a villain?

Hey can you recommend me a romance book please Princess and knight romance and villan is Princess's family i can not find such books 😢😢

I've read many books with the "morally grey" characters, and only agree with the pabel for like one or two of them. Usually it's a completely good and nice guy who just has to lie to save someone's life or is put into an evil society where he has to act outside of their laws. That doesn't make a dark evil character, or even a morally grey one, that is a good completely light character who was put into a dark world.

Morally grey goes back to Shakesperare. The difference now is that's all we have. No inspirational characters who are actually BETTER than the average anymore. And I do think that's modern disillusionment - but disillusionment with goodness, not disillusionment with the 'establishment' - the modern establishment is VERY morally grey! I love morally grey relatable characters, but I also want characters I can look up to and learn from. The world will never become a better place if we never aim higher. 'But it's unrealistic!l People aren't like that!' is the complaint I always hear about good characters in older books. Well, maybe they should be trying to be.

hi I'm writing my own romance book, and I need some advice

Are they morally gray or do they just abide by a different set of morals?

❤

Heck yeah

So here's a question from someone new to the genre of a morally grey character... Would Robin of Locksley, aka Robin Hood be considered grey? He was outside of society, a rebel against the injustices of the system and robbed from the rich (or those he believed had wronged others) to feed the poor. He's considered a hero to some...but also a thief to others. So being the vigilante that he is... could he be seen as morally grey?

Elisabeth, I do think you're onto something. Besides, a good majority of humans and their personalities aren't entirely good, nor entirely bad. The ones who are mostly good but end up breaking the law to serve a Higher Purpose are the ones who see the injustice going on and they've f'ing had it with the laws on the books that feel quite sinister. The philosopher in me had better stop before she writes a danged essay. 😅😅😂😂

Ah yes, people who are outside the established systems of power - such as the storming princess of Alethkar

…huh. I think you just redefined my entire academic discipline as morally grey and I’m not sure how I feel about that. 😂

Morally grey is normal humans

Umm... Jaime Lannister... just saying... crosses one of those lines.... I don't consider Jasnah to be any more morally grey than any other realistic fictional character. I also feel that many well-known morally grey characters are actually in the positions of power - ex. Dalinar, Taravangian, Robert Baratheon. Stormlight is partially about a morally grey upper class - a class that as a whole does a lot of bad things, but still has many fundamentally good people in it. The establishment itself is morally grey, as are most of the characters in it. Then again, in many books even some of those who are in positions of power are fighting against the rest of the establishment - so I actually do think your points are pretty insightful and generally correct, even if there are individual examples that don't fit the theory perfectly

I just read otherworldly anarchist. Coincidence?

It depends on how you define a morally gray character. Harry Potter for instance is very anti-establishment during the series but he’s not morally gray. Sure he becomes an Auror but that’s because he wants to fix things and hunt down dark wizards. He sees being an Auror as a way to do that. It’s also worth noting that he refused to work with Ministry in the 6th book despite their offers to give him a career as an Auror because at that point the Ministry was behaving in a corrupt and incompetent manner.

Challenge accepted.

I think the answer is George RR Martin

Jason Todd has a point. He's still a murderer, but at least he murders criminals.

A little early to be called out today. 😆

Those people arent morally gray, they have strong morals. Its just the things you call moral or immoral are irrelevant to them.

I'm early

Dresdan files i knoe mc is knda shotty at first but young writer at the time ans goes as you go deepeer, going into the series the better it gets not gonnna say trust me just expeience yourself honestly

🤣let's be honest there is at least one morally grey character in good books🤣

Also, morally grey characters are hot 99% of the time, so... 😅

Firstt