The crucial part of the fourth act is Batman leading the people of Gotham out of the flood. He went from being someone that everyone feared (including civilians) to being a beacon of light in the darkness, and a symbol of hope.

Much like Black Panther’s Killmonger, Riddler is a character with decent points to make, but those points are almost all pretense for someone whose true motivation is lashing out in anger at being personally hurt by the world.

I think the “i’m vengeance” bit actually works really well despite Riddler technically also being inspired by Batman, because Riddler is a villain. He’s a genius with a mirrored backstory to Bruce’s. The “I’m vengeance” guy is just a goon with a gun. He’s an ordinary npc, but with Batman’s catchphrase in his mouth he becomes a rogue agent. It sells the idea that Batman is negatively influencing the populace even more.

While I understand why you feel this way, I think you are a bit too hung up on keeping the film short. The difference between the third act "save Selena from vengeance" and the fourth act "give up vengeance" is that with the former is "the alcoholic stops a young kid from taking their first drink" versus the latter "the alcoholic makes the active choice to throw the bottle away". The through line - the thematic heart of the film - is Bruce letting go of the selfish need for vengeance under the facade of being the only person who can help and actually do the work of helping the city. The corruption wasn't just crooked officials and criminals - it's the apathy of those that have the ability to make change and don't.

I don't necessarily agree with the second I am Vengeance scene being redundant. Yeah him taking Falcone in is him choosing justice, but it's an easy choice. He's still beating up bad guys and going after them. The second scene shows him that he needs to be more then the guy who beats up bad guys.

Interestingly, apparently, Warner studio execs actually fought Reeves to cut the "fourth act" scene with the Riddler goons at the Mayor rally after January 6th happened for fear of it being too similar but Reeves deemed it too important to the story to cut. ALSO note- the final season of Gotham did a No Man's Land too (and is my personal fav adaptation outside of the INCREDIBLE novelization)

There’s a difference between Batman discouraging Catwoman from following vengeance and Batman understanding that he himself is following vengeance and overcoming it, so I would argue that the third and fourth acts as you’ve dubbed them are thematically distinct

The thing about The Riddler is that his “revolutionary” motivations weren’t motivated so much out of trying make the city “better” in his own skewed way, they were based on his desire for revenge towards the city. Seeing Bruce Wayne as a child getting attention for the death of his parents while he was suffering in the orphans home incited his personal vendetta towards not just the corrupt Gotham elite, it was EVERYONE. He may have had some points but it was not as based on trying to make a better society out of the city as it was an elaborate act of vengeance under the facade of justice. P.S. The scenes of him looking like a far-right terrorist live-streaming on the dark web also kinda allude to this, at least to me lol

I generally agree with most of your points but I heavily disagree with the whole "Batman already learned to not be violent with falcone" thing, the point of the moment with the riddler goon isn't Bruce learning violence is bad and the system is important. It's Bruce learning that he needs to be a dumbbell l symbol of hope instead of a symbol of fear which he didn't learn before the fourth act

Another defense for the 4th act, I personally feel like that scene where Batman saves the people in the water and helps rescue teams in the rubble is one or the best of the movie. It showcases Batman actually *being* better. If the movie ended with Bruce debating his effect or even fully deciding to do better without actually showing, it would feel hollow. Of course, there's that scene with Selina, but I feel like there would need to be something more. Batman helping people at the end concludes his arc from vengeance fueled vigilante to hope of Gotham

The fourth act was my favorite part of the movie. It has some of the most accurate Batman scenes any Movie has ever had. Batman helping people and inspiring hope in the innocent. The way Batman interacts with the victims of crime, matters more to me than the way he interacts with criminals.

I think the extra ending is more about Batman confronting his relationship with the city and its people and figthing to change the image he has built and the effect he has had on the people

Honestly I think the reason Batman is justifying not killing Falcone isn't because he genuinely wants to but because Riddler tells him to bring Falcone into the light, meaning expose him (which we find out is incorrect). All in service of capturing riddler. It's only when he undeniably sees the riddler goon he realises what he is and what he inspires.

That’s why the deleted joker scene informs the theme so much. “You think they deserved it”

What I took from the movie was that it was an actual origin story. It showed how Bruce became batman, and not just a child lashing out. It showed how he finally realized that him just being the monster in the dark was making everything worse.

Am I crazy or was Riddler from the beginning set on blowing up Gotham? This isn’t a Flagsmashers situation where the plot suddenly went left turn he was from the beginning set on destroying Gotham.

I think the 4th act redeems Batman, from being in the dark (“I am the shadow”) to him being a light-bearer & leading/saving those around him

Get where you're coming from, but disagree. Riddler is clearly established as vengeance seeking as well, the fourth act is the one that PROPERLY teaches Batman about not being vengeance (sure he didn't want vengeance against Falcone but that was more about stopping Selina. He doesn't learn to stop himself from that). Plus, that last scene where he ACTUALLY saves people is far more important than saving Falcone.

The 4th act gives Batman a chance to demonstrate everything he learned throughout the movie. Batman has several Japanese references, like his ninja esthetic being the most obvious. All Japanese stories have 4 to 5 acts. An introduction, 2-3 acts of conflict & conclusion.

Falcon shows Bruce justice, the film’s finale shows Batman needs to be hope instead of just vigilante. Could it be tighter? Sure. Ironically this ending was the thing I liked the most about this Batman movie.

while you’ve made some great points, i don’t agree. i believe riddler is hungry for vengeance, not just change. he doesn’t want to clean out the corruption, he’s more childish than that, he’s looking to take out his anger on those that pretend to help only to gain, he sees bella as just another one. his goal is only to take his anger out, not to “fix gotham”

I loved the 4th act for this reason. Acts 1, 2, 3: Batman is a harmful presence. Act 4: Unless you are in a comic book world with Supervillains. It’s crystal clear.

The other thing worth noting in the argument of Batman being “bad” for Bruce and Gotham is that at the beginning of the movie, Alfred tells him off for ditching a meeting with the accountants. Bruce has been neglecting the Wayne assets and could have detected the corruption earlier if he had just actually been Bruce Wayne instead of Batman

I think you make some interesting points, but I do think the Riddler never intended on fixing Gotham. He wanted vengeance. And as far as he was concerned, all of Gotham had wronged him. I think that was the idea. I think that the idea of some extremists gathering together to pull off an elaborate and horrific plan was my favorite part of the movie. It shows the dangers of influence, both through the internet and through public figures.

Perfect "neo noir," sure... But the last half of the film has Batman coming to terms with his ideology. Not that we need to harmonize the themes of Gotham's systemic injustices and conclude his character arc by having him break the cycle in order to save, not just people, but the city itself--you know, the scene where you said he was baptized. That act of self-sacrifice was triggered when he heard the Riddler crew echo his catchphrase. THAT'S basically the point of the whole film. Wait...why does it have to be "the perfect neo noir" again? And if you don't like a hopeful batman, go back to the Animated series and watch Batman save a telekinetic girl by sitting on a swing set. That show ruled because it understood why Batman worked, because he brought hope...to a neo-noir city. I think Matt Reeves gets it.

The biggest issue I had was with the joker scene at the end. I believe they should have either added the cut joker scene earlier in the movie or kept them both out. the one just doesn't work on its own.

I think your proposed Act 4 rewrite makes a lot of sense. By making the Act 4 incident an unintended consequence of Riddler being used as a symbol, you can also explore what the unintended consequences of Batman being used as a symbol means, and therefore emphasize the importance of Batman being a beacon of Justice rather than an avatar of Fear and Vengeance through the same lens. If the rioters are a byproduct of Riddler, and Riddler is a byproduct of Batman, then the riot indiscriminately putting innocents in harm's way indirectly becomes a failing of Batman as "Fear and Vengeance" that he needs to address. This in turn encourages Batman to do better and be better on a path towards being an incorruptible symbol.

The 4th act felt like a well deserved encore to me

There’s something in the way… Of a perfect Batman movie

I suspect that the No Man’s Land arc will be what the penguin show explores, especially since Batman is also supposedly in it, even if for only a few minutes

They for sure blew it with the Riddler. They had set him up so perfectly to make the audience question Batman's vigilantism by the Riddler also fighting crime exposing and punishing Gotham's corruption to an extreme degree thus blurring the lines between the 2, then they throw it all away and make the Riddler a nonsense character that plans to be imprisoned and other nonsense. This Riddler could have been a great villain to Batman that destroys the public perception to Batman.

And yeah I agree with what you were talking about with the flagsmashers, I've noticed a huge trend with villains who's motivation seems to be a pursuit of an anarchical society, and instead of challenging the actual beliefs, the writers just make them insanely violent for no reason other than to make them the bad guys.

Man like Nando, you know!! Im about to watch the vid and I’ve been loving your work for some time 👍🏾

I love it. This totally fixes the Riddler's inconsistent motivations. It could even be the man from the funeral, the one who talks to Bruce, who places the vans.

Wow that one small change you made with act 4 in the end of the video is perfect

Even when I don’t agree or if I’m not convinced by your videos they always bring up great points that tingle my brain

I've said this a million times but I think The Batman and Spider-Man Homecoming have SO many things in common and Batman not throwing a batarang is an important part of that, just like Spider-Man not swinging around in Manhattan and even being afraid of heights

Dope video, came across your channel randomly. subbed!

You are so right. This was a great video. Thank you for sharing!

Nice perspective and points 🙂👍

they already did "maybe the main character is a bad idea" with BVS and Man of Steel and fans hated it and didn't have the patience to do deconstruct/reconstruct over a multi-part series. a 4th act allowed them to eat their cake and have it too, appeasing fans who might have found a "Chinatown" ending too depressing to be excited about a sequel.

I will say, I think you're wrong about where the midpoint takes place in the movie. Colson dying doesn't change much - powerful people are still getting killed, Batman is still looking for answers, nothing has changed in the stakes or Batman's motivations. It's a very 'promise of the premise' scene, and does nothing to set up the ending. The true midpoint is when Riddler leaks the info about Thomas and Martha Wayne. Because that's when the stakes raise as it becomes more personal to Batman, and acts as turning point for his arc, sowing the seeds for Batman re-evaluating what he needs to be for the city. This is important because a midpoint should act as a false victory or false defeat in the story, a mirror to the eventual true victory or defeat that comes at the end of the movie. And the end of Act 2 is the inverse of that, a major defeat for the protagonist (if they're building towards a happy ending), or a major victory for the protagonist (if they're building towards a sad ending). So if you look at the movie through a lens where Riddler's leaked info is the midpoint, Batman stopping Selina from killing Falcone and subsequently arresting him as a major victory, and the city collapsing as the sad ending, I think it's still very much a three act structure.

I loved the finale when that shark was about to eat the little girl with the balloon, and then the Batman, in his 'the batspeedboat' with his 'the batsharkrepellantspray' saved the day while jumping over said shark and listening to 'the batnirvana' It really sold that whole David Fincher grimey realism vibe they were going for. I may have misremembered some of the sentient details of the climx there...but this is definitely what the finale FELT like

So glad that somebody did a video on this and I found it. At one point I almost started KZfaq channel myself to talk about this. When I first watched the movie in the theatre, I actually googled "The Batman 3 act structure" right after its ending and found nothing. All the bits after killing Falcone (including Riddler being captured on purpose, which in my opinion did not accomplish anything of importance for his plan) do seem like a bonus content. The only point of difference between our viewpoints is that I believe there are actually 5 acts, but the first two are both really short. 1. The first part is everything before Riddler shows up - the character of Batman and his place in Gotham's life. 2. Riddler's first crime and challenge thrown at Batman. The 4th act (3rd in the video) is the resolution for 2nd act. The 5th act (4th in the video) is the resolution of 1st - Batman finally finds his place, being a symbol of hope instead of fear. But this is really not communicated well throughout the movie, I just think this way from the point of someone who really dove deep into this on multiple re-watchs, audience does not feel that the first act is actually 2 separate acts. The outcome is that final act does feel like the bonus content of "The lost world: Jurassic Park" in San Diego.

Man you named your podcast right. You can plug it so easily and naturally in every episode without even rocking the flow of a sentence with an aside interjected.

Im surprised Zero Year doesn''t get a mention as a inspiration of this film

Also I was sooo interested in that hypothetical ending with the whole Riddler didn’t cause the fourth act as part of his plan. Would have been better. Because for me that fourth act just turned the Riddler into a cardboard cutout of a villain focused on maximum mayhem.

Excellent points. Seriously great analysis

i think you just missunderstood He may have had some points but Riddler is not about revolution or betterment of society he is about anger and revenge towards the city that hurt him,ignored him or put him down . also the ridles and games are because he wants atention and to be seen to be "popular" for the first time

Literally everything you mentioned in this video are my main problems with the movie/Riddler too. Glad someone articulated it properly.

I remember first watching in theatres, I literally forgot about the riddler because of how much I got invested into the Catwoman and falcone story, when it pulled back to the riddler I was shocked

“The best written villains are always the ones that no matter how twisted they’re motives seem, no matter how much you want to hate them, they essentially are right!”

FYI the last season of the TV show Gotham was No Man’s Land. It’s hard to find Bat media without a NML arc

the idea that the finale is sparked by riddler-imitators is really so inspired. it really hones in on those themes and makes the whole crisis into an example of what the "i am vengeance" line demonstrates, ties it in splendidly

Thank you for pinpointing exactly what it was that bothered me about this movie. I like your idea much better!

perfectly articulating why i felt kind of weird about the end of the movie

The thing is, even if Bruce talking Selena down was the same as him choosing to be a symbol of hope instead of vengeance (it isn't, but fine), there's still a massive problem. The people of Gotham are still terrified of him. You can't be a symbol of hope if the victims you save are more afraid of you than they are of the criminals. The scene where Batman carried that woman to the evac helicopter and then just stood there with her for a moment was probably the most Batman thing that a live-action Batman has ever done. THAT is why it was necessary.

Does he know?

I feel like you keep using "fourth act" in a derogatory way here, but you do know that there is a five act structure for organizing a plot and that three acts is not the only lens to view a script, right?

While I think your suggested change would work, I disagree that it's necessary because I think it's motivated by misreading the Riddler's motivations - you're taking what he says at face value when (to me), it always read as talking points to rile up people and outwardly justify what was simply a little boy sad and angry that he was forgotten and neglected. His attack on a broader Gotham is him lashing out at who he really believes is at fault: the city itself, the people who live in it, not just the corrupt system that was the mechanism for what happened. His rhetoric's just there to get others on his side. Of course, that reading's probably motivated by real world parallels, of people using somewhat comprehensible, reasonable, even appealing rhetoric to stoke anger, hatred, and more.

Your alternate Act 4 would make a great origin for this movie's version of Cluemaster, someone who shares Riddler's M.O. and having him be one of Riddler's Dark Web followers who set up his own scheme in the middle of Riddler's would feel... Fitting.

As a lot of people in the comments are pointing out, Riddler is a selfish individual. Both Riddler and Batman were doing their work out of selfishness, the reason why Riddler's was more effective was beause he knew what was behind the corruption and also couldn't face them head on because of his lack of strength, which he tells Batman. The thing is Bruce realizes how to fight for other people. You could say he does that metaphorically in the 3rd act with Selina, but he truly does that at the 4th act. Giving him a great character arc and a natural reason as to why he is better than riddler, he learns to not be selfish

Not to correct you, (although I guess I'm about to,) but the direct comic inspiration behind the fourth act was Zero Year from the New 52 Batman, not No Man's Land. Still an indirect adaptation because it didn't have the villain Doctor Death (the coolass Bat-Zeppelin) and to me the thematic buildup and execution that made that issue where the city was flooded worth it. So it still wasn't exactly a great idea to adapt the flood here. However, I love that scene with Batman saving people and literally being touched by a civilian, so that alone made it worth it to me. (Also, I believe Reeve's creative process for coming up with the story for The Batman was making a pastiche of all the popular origin stories. You can see evidence of Year One, The Long Halloween, Earth One, and Zero Year. I believe he took elements from all these stories when cobbling his own.)

It was nice to see the Riddler, who is actually one of the hardest villians for Batman to defeat each time and probably up there with the Joker in being dangerous, finally get to be effective and actually kinda cool. But it of course was squandered with the ending just like how I was hoping if they do give this movie sequels I wanted to see them finally do the "people turn against Batman" story where they think Batman is either causing his villians or working with them in some way.

Ah yes, then he gives a voice over speech looking at the camera and the music builds, now a symbol of hope and it cuts..... to another ending with catwoman

I don't think Bruce learned his lesson at 9:55 through Selene. He was basically saying it's not on YOU, to be the person who sacrifices their normal life/morals/whatever for vengence. But he still thinks it's on HIM to act like that, to go out and fistfight his way to justice. He hasn't thought about changing his own actions from a warrior to someone who rescues, helps.

Reeves Riddler is what I wanted Hush to be when I read my first Hush comic.

I love that new ending that keeps the Riddler away from the bombs. BTW, they also did a cool No Man's Land in Gotham

A very insightful analysis, Nando. I don't exactly agree 100%, but I think you certainly have a point. The structure as you described it doesn't line up exactly with the runtime--I think the midpoint is actually supposed to be the orphanage scene and the reveal about Thomas Wayne--but what makes it confusing is how sloppily the third act (or fourth in your outline) is paced and structured. It feels like it's ramping up, and then the story grinds to a halt before the flooding happens. By the end the movie leaves the audience exhausted as a result. And yes, the Dark Night of the Soul of the third act really pales in comparison to the crisis following the midpoint where Alfred is targeted. But as other commenters have said I think that Batman saving the people out of the flood is crucial to his arc in the movie, and while a contemplative and uncertain ending would also work, I think that the transformative change that Batman goes through at the end is inspiring. I also think that the power of dangerous ideologies poisoning individuals in the modern world, as seen in the end with Riddler's followers, is a terrifying situation close to reality that I wouldn't want to disregard from the movie. It's one thing to see Riddler spreading these ideologies in a twisted way--it's another to see people adopt it and act on it.

Sound analysis; I agree with all of it. The repercussions to Riddler's actions are a disaffected group of extremists hunting all politicians (for which no disguises would be required) and civilian power structures. Escalation that breaks the focussed, determined path he'd been on. That would have a much stronger narrative.

I will say, my favorite part of the batman's 4th act is that bruce can't punch criminals out of this. The conclusion where batman for the first time in the movie saves innocents rather than punishing criminals is an aspect of batman that's nearly never given the spotlight it should. If your batman cant try to comfort a crying child you've misunderstood batman. He does what he does to make sure nobody has to suffer the way he did and the way the batman's bruce realizes that during that fourth act is something no other live action batman movie ever managed to capture. Sure its messy on the riddler's end but i'd still argue the movie is better for it.

I really like that the final clue was something that Batman missed because of his wealth privilege--it would never occur to him to think of a tool for carpeting because he's so rich, which kind of reinforces Riddler's point about Bruce Wayne.

Nando, you are the man and I almost always agree with you. I cant wait til you make your move... i know it's gonna be awesome :)

You’re alternate ending where the riddler unintentionally starts a rebellion group was actually so sick

I saw the "venom" shot as one of Batman's emergency risky gadgets - like the near suicidal wing suit but more psychologically risky

lol I was hesitant when i clicked on the video but your resolution of that 4th act actually makes more sense and gives more meaning to the hope theme, although kind of out of theme, but I. ever liked that the joker is there. I mean eventually he is gonna arrive as in any Batman story, but I wish they keep it locked and give other villains a chance. Specially with the Joker 2 in production

We need the Nando Cut 🙂

I agree with everything you said in this video but I thinking another reason they did this is to establish the main villain of the movie as the Riddler who has general public name recognition as opposed to Falcone. It’s hard to market a movie where two two most recognizable villains, Penguin and Riddler, are B plots to Falcone who most people don’t know.

I got to play a “film noir” detective in a comedy show once and got really into it, this video made me really nostalgic for that show

The Batman is about young Batman. Before he knows who he really is. Right now he is just vengeance. He then turns into a symbol of hope and light in the darkness. I would argue that the 'second ending' is actually a continuation of the scene with Catwoman.

Love the Whose Line reference

The three act structure you bring up in the beginning with the Batman is spot on. I really felt they should have ended it after the interrogation, but to add something (that they teased and then reversed). I think it would have been an awesome cliffhanger to have the riddler unmask Batman and then end the movie. What have solidified this riddler as a one the greater on screen Batman villains.

I mean I get it, they needed a big action, bombastic finale for the movie. I'm sure it had some studio pressure to do. I see your point completely and I did sense the multiple endings. However it didn't bother me at all because I enjoyed watching it just as much. I really enjoyed the visualization of a citizen grabbing his arm and his clearly being surprised.

I love the Batman but my only gripe is basically the same thing most people complain about it. It has two endings like you pointed. I think it fell into the comic book movie trope of having a big CGI fight scene at the end (Which I think shouldn't be for every CBM). The Batman's meeting with the Riddler at Arkham could've been a perfect wrap for the movie. I have an idea regarding how I would've done it but I'll let this one pass.

Uploaded 12 seconds ago?! Ive never been this early to a video

I feel like the Riddler ending is more of an Epilogue, which I think is pretty cool. Its nice that a movie can spend the time to tie up loose ends as we don't get that very often. Not many movies get that privilege and the ones that do are amongst my favourite. Pulp Fiction is a movie that comes to mind.

The 4th gives a conclusion to Gotham and it’s citizens and their perception of Batman

I thought the same thing when watching it felt like the 4th part could have been the opening to a second movie in my opinion like his not fully done with riddler who teams with joker inside the asylum while Batman faces off against someone else who gets put in Arkham then they start running the asylum in a 3rd movie and Batman has to stop then would have been cool

I don't think the 4th act is about him learning about vengeance. I think it's a turning point where Batman stops just simply fighting crime and starts saving Gotham citizens. He jumps to the cable and chooses to sacrifice his safety to save the people from electrocution. In the beginning, he beats up the clown thugs and the citizen is afraid of Batman. By the end, the citizens take his hand and hold on tight. Also, the entire movie is quite literally coming out of the shadows. By this final scene, he sparks a flare, and he becomes the only source of light in the darkness, leading the people to safety.

I like that change of who's behind the assault at the end of the movie, makes me think of that outing in January last year when lots of people gathered up and visited that big old white building.

“Do Better” is such an easy way to just end an important conversation without realizing the flaws within your own beliefs.

I like the idea of the Riddler being confused… at the flooding and all that has come after him.

I agree. Felt like WB demanded a big climactic action scene. The Riddler goons came out of nowhere. If they showed that uprising happening gradually throughout the movie, it would have helped

Straight to the point: I believe Matt Reeves did a version of No Man's Land to spare us from it later. Now, let me explain: With certain IP there are events that are nexus events. They HAVE to happen even if we don't see them: Bruce's parents die, Kal El launched into space, Peter Parker bitten by a spider, Sherlock discovering Moriarity, TMNT discovering Shredder/Foot Clan for the first time, etc. I think No Man's Land is one such event in Batman's IP. I don't think Reeves specifically intended to "get it out of the way" in a negative way, but the result is the same. To open this universe with a bang and use NML themes, we won't have to worry about Gotham being destroyed and divided in future movies. The focus can now be on other issues such as a new Joker interpretation, why this Batman may want a Robin or Batgirl, etc

That Black Adam zing has got to be the greatest ratio of subtlety to zing in zing history

Cool take! I hated how they made the riddler, a super smart and organized guy, have such a dumb plan in the end that does nothing towards his actual goals.

Ummm Batman’s signature weapon is “Bat-Shark Repellent” geeez

I'm so glad you made this video. I've had this same discussion with my friends since the movie came out! Ending it in Arkham and a cut to black would make the movie so much more satisfying

The "green" he injects himself with is literally just an adrenaline shot so he can get up after taking a shotgun blast to the chest and save Selina.

I don't agree with all your points or even conclusion but you present a valid and well thought out standpoint.