Why I Don't Like Tainted Grail | Unpopular Opinions

Рет қаралды 4,419

Күн бұрын

Tainted Grail has proven to be a divisive game in many ways. After much time with the game and the expansions, I've come to the conclusion that it's not a game I particularly enjoy and yet, I like so many elements that it has to offer. So why doesn't it land with me?
Check out the video for my full thoughts in the FIRST of our new series UNPOPULAR OPINIONS, where we take a look at games that we have a differing opinion on in relation to its ranking on the BGG Top list.
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0:00 New Series: Unpopular Opinions
1:32 Let's discuss and have fun, not fight!
3:16 What I DO like about Tainted Grail
9:05 Issues with design & mechanics
15:57 Some issues with encounters
19:34 Tainted Grail makes it hard to have fun
24:25 The Expansions
25:32 Final Thoughts / Let's Discuss!

Пікірлер: 51

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Let's discuss! Why do you agree with me? Or why do you disagree with me? What are your overall thoughts on Tainted Grail or your experiences with the game and its expansions? I'd love to hear from you!

@FreeformRock 2 жыл бұрын

Great video, I actually REALLY like videos that also focus on why someone doesn't like a game. There are too much opinions on why to like, it's great to know about the other side of the coin. Cheers!

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Agreed, it's definitely good to have the discussions focused on the "other side of the coin", especially when we can have them in a friendly and respectful way, even when there's debate or difference of opinions happening. I'm intrigued and interested by people who like Tainted Grail, not upset at them. Even if I disagree with their opinion, I think it's fantastic they have found a game that they like and enjoy and keeps them in this amazing hobby!

@TabletopRose 2 жыл бұрын

Yes, yes and yes. It’s so frustrating that this game has so much potential, but the grind takes you away from that. We played by the rules until about chapter 7… at that point we decided to just say SCREW IT, and played for the story. Thanks! I like this idea for a series!

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much, Ashley! Glad you enjoy the series idea, we'll definitely do more of these when we find that we have a differing opinion than the masses. Tainted Grail is definitely worth playing for the story, I agree. I just wish the gameplay mechanics were allowed to shine more!

@BraidenWatling 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely agree here. I think to add on to your point about the menhirs, it's not only the resource collection but the cost of that resource collection on your character. Your madness might start to rise more and more and all you wanna do is explore! The story is really interesting but I'm probably just going to look up what happens at this point. Thanks for the vid!

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Totally! You're already limited in what you can do each day so having to spend what little effort you might have on less interesting tasks and then realize "I can't do anything else" is frustrating too.

@Filip_eF 2 жыл бұрын

To people who are frustrated with mechanics (I was as well :)). This is what you can do. 1. Use story mode (no "T" limiter, more days on menhir + just multiple the last of the resource [not all of them] needed for lighting the menhir during coop game). That pushed my game with my wife dramatically. You still need to keep an eye on resources and time. You'll still get wounds during fight, and the game will punish you at some point. So we just found a balance - good for us. 2) There are also some cool "house rules" you can find on BGG (scouting - moving on locations without menhir lights[cost you 2 hearts and 2 fear]), teleportation beetwen active menhirs, lighting the previous lighted menhirs only with 5 energy etc. 3) don't play as 3 or 4 players, it will not work

@blackemerald Жыл бұрын

Just found you through an old Board Game Co video. Really enjoyed your thoughts, I agree with a lot of them and for me the survival/grind undermined the exploration (though it was sold as a hard survival game so i don't think any of us should have been too surprised. I also felt that the combat/diplomacy was too punishing and slow, with insufficient reward, so we've increased the default hand size and treat ourselves as at full health each time so as to emphasise the puzzle over the struggle. Awakened Realms have recently announced a sequel and it sounds like they've listened to a lot of feedback and are removing the menhirs in favour of a more flexible map system, and shifting the survival/grind into an optional hard mode, so I'm really interested to see what they've learned for the sequel, even I don't get ot.

@AllYouCanBoard Жыл бұрын

Thank you! And yes, I'm cautiously optimistic and curious to see what the sequel does.

@Manny-M 2 жыл бұрын

This is fantastic. Not only because of your mature and well thought out approach, but also because it’s clear you’ve spent quite some time with it… and that in itself holds a lot of weight. I have backers bias for sure. I love the theme, production and promises of this game. Now, I’ve only played 3 sessions, and have done so with two characters solo, but already I’m getting a little lost and frustrated with it. Not enough to pack it in… but enough to wonder if I should start again… maybe this time solo with only 1 character to keep session time down. It’s not yet clear to me what I’m really benefiting from running a second character. What is clear to me though, is how disheartening dead ends are. When you’re not heading in the right direction and end up wasting precious time to revisit locations and take different actions… which then results in more of the grind to keep the Menhirs lit… it’s a total buzz kill (especially when you’re time poor). And that alone is a real concern of mine in keeping it up.

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

That's an interesting and very astute point about the dead ends being so disheartening. Thematically, it makes sense to really put weight on the decisions and have their be consequences. However, from a gameplay perspective, if it makes the experience much less enjoyable, there's a problem. Thanks for bringing that up!

@Manny-M 2 жыл бұрын

@@AllYouCanBoard we get it... that feeling of dread is thematic. It's not supposed to be a feel good game... but I've felt that, in my short time with it, it hasn't done a good enough job of giving me the information necessary to make informed choices. So that little bit of luck is either going to go my way, or not. And if not... yeesh! For example, for the first act I sent my characters off in two different directions. Both reached key locations and I spent considerable resources, time and multiple attempts to achieve the desired outcome... and that outcome ended up being exactly the same. It was just a way to progress the story. So while I liked that you were given three avenues to progress, it wasn't clear that attempting all of them would give you nothing more than the same end result. That seemed... a little frustrating and disrespectful of my time.

@okja1942 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely agree with you. It left my collection after giving it many tries!

@Feanor1769 2 жыл бұрын

Menhirs destroyed this game for me. I loved the "points of light" setting, art, and premise of exploration. I got a game where I maintain statues for my day job and sometimes get to adventure on the weekends. Example game day- Start the day: Do Menhir maintenance and reduce Time Dials. (immediately be reminded I'm on the clock and need to move) During the day: I spend energy loading down my pack mule with food for the party and gas for the statues. With the last of my daily energy I get to explore a cool thing I found. (actually play the game) I choose the wrong path and get "Exploration Ends" without gaining any info or items. End of day: Wonder why I'm playing game. (eventually box it up and put it and expansions in my sell pile)

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Haha "menhir maintenance" is a funny way to describe it and not inaccurate!

@tigerpjm 2 жыл бұрын

Yep. I felt like building a Menhir in my back yard and lighting it with Tainted Grail. Normally I get paid for doing jobs, with Tainted Grail you get to pay to do jobs.

@snmackenzie 2 жыл бұрын

I couldn't agree with you more! Such a slog getting in the way of the actual fun stuff. We haven't come back to this after a couple of plays. In fact, we thought we were playing wrong because it seemed so grindy. Turned out we were playing correctly, and we lost the motivation to keep playing - even in 'easy/story' mode. Thanks for the balanced video, I agree with lots of other commenters that its great to have all sides and perspectives raised in videos and the comments sections. Great video as always.

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed the video, Steve! I definitely think it's important to be able to discuss both sides of games (pros and cons) in a respectful way that acknowledges the varying opinions out there!

@snmackenzie 2 жыл бұрын

@@AllYouCanBoard From the videos I've watched on this channel, I can't think of anyone more respectful or insightful than your good self to start that sort of conversation.

@InvisiblePon3 Жыл бұрын

My friends and I found Tainted Grail experience really unique, completed main campaign over the course of four months and now starting The Last Knight. However, we had a team wipe quite early in the campaign and lowered the difficulty. By the end of the game we were swimming in resources and yet we still didn't go for the better ending just because it required going around the whole map and despite some questions left unanswered we felt it was just more hassle than it's worth. So yeah, agree both for Menhir relighting and somewhat for combat (early to mid game combat is very interesting, but in late game you are almost certain that you win every encounter, it just becomes a matter of resources and spending time recovering and gathering stuff for Menhirs). So far The Last Knight seems to address the Menhir problem and while exposure seems like a harsh trade off, at least you are now actually encouraged to explore area in full before moving forward (since exposure accumulates based on movement).

@thessik5660 2 жыл бұрын

I very much agree with that introduction. We NEED different opinions on board games, otherwise board games wouldn't have evolved past Monopoly. I'm so glad we live in such a golden age of board games that we get to have so many board games that we can not like a triple A kickstarter title like Tainted Grail but there's still so much for us to sink our teeth into.

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely! And there are a LOT of board games out there so it's only natural that even the most popular ones won't land with everyone.

@Ravenblade460 Жыл бұрын

Just found your channel and even thought this was video is months old still wanted to add my thoughts. To be honest I don't really disagree with any of your issues with game and in some ways I even agree with them. I guess for me and my group the story and exploration where so much fun we overlooked these issues. I also think that much of the grind starts to ease towards the later half of the game. I found that we get light Menhir much faster as we progressed and the grind became less of a concern.

@thelupishow 2 жыл бұрын

You hit this right on the head. It's as if I wrote the script for this video and you just read it back to me. I was so excited for this game and we played through a bunch of it. Without spoilers we made it to a big city only to discover we needed to go back where we started from and all the menhirs we're going out. We gave up. The game is simply a slog. I know lots of people enjoy it. But it's is simply not fun. I really need to sell my copy along with the unopened box of extras. Thanks for a great video.

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, "slog" is a good way of putting it. Much of it felt that way, but in between when I was engaging in the exploration and story and discovery, it was really fun and engaging. Just never felt like I was free to enjoy the fun parts of the game.

@Filip_eF 2 жыл бұрын

Just hit story mode (that changed the whole game for me and my wife) or even use some of the house rules from bgg. Really helps

@thelupishow 2 жыл бұрын

@@Filip_eF Thanks...will try that

@Filip_eF 2 жыл бұрын

@@thelupishow story mode from rulebook + multiply only the last needed resource for menhirs activation(not all of them) + available movee through locations previously discovered but currently without menhirs lights will cost you 2 hearts and give you 2 fear. This is what works for me and my wife. Still you need to keep an eye on health, resources but you are not grinding and you are able to finish a chapter in 3 hours. Take care :)

@ethananderson3770 Жыл бұрын

The new 2.0 edition rules seem to be going a long way to fix a lot of these issues. Kings of ruin the sequel has permanent menhir mechanic. Food is only required for healing not keeping yourself alive etc

@LemuelCantos Жыл бұрын

Appreciate your opinion. My taste is also different. Though I love Tainted Grail, it's not because of the story. It's because of the deckbuilding and the gameplay! And yes I love grindy games especially when theres a reward to the grinding! But for this game I do skip tge menhir activations and I don't feel like I'm missing out when I do.

@Ambar88 2 жыл бұрын

To be fair, you played this at 4 player which is not recommended by 98% of users on BGG. This game is really meant to be played solo, or at most with 2 with both players sticking together the entire time. Even with the story mode rules to make it less grindy (cheaper Menhirs, easier encounters, no T-marker health limiter), it still wouldn't play well at 4 because of how disjointed people would feel on other people's turns. The point about "making it hard to have fun" is fair, and other story-driven games do a better job at not punishing you for wanting to explore the story. Sleeping Gods for example does a great job at "failing forward" by taking some resources but not fully locking you out if you fail at a skill check. It's a shame that the board game with arguably the most well-written story also has to be a survival game: the mechanisms compete with each other and prevent people from having fun. Also, the AoL campaign is considered to be the best one by far. I would give that one a chance either solo/2-player.

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Hey Kristian, thanks for the comment! I've definitely heard that about the recommended player count. That's actually why I went into the expansion solo. But really, what I love about campaign games is getting together with a group of friends to adventure together over some snacks and drinks, I feel like that's what a lot of people get out of them (though obviously not everyone). So I would say it's problematic that a campaign game is best recommended with the least amount of players possible or even solo. But all in all, I didn't find my solo experience to be greatly better than my 4 player experience in any opinion-changing ways, although I will definitely say it was better and easier to manage, haha. Thanks again for taking the time to comment with your thoughts!

@michaelnewsome1248 2 жыл бұрын

The greatest flaw of my favorite game is its flawlessness. 😉 Seriously, I like this discussion. In the past (and sometimes in the present) I've taken "inaccurate" criticisms of my favorite games to heart and quite personally. I've tried to learn to separate my personal experiences with a game from what the game actually "is" with all its pros and cons.

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely agree. I remember vehmently defending some of my favourite video games when I was younger, whereas now I can look back and be critical of even my all-time favourite games because it doesn't change their ranking or why they're special to me. It's an important thing to be able to do!

@tigerpjm 2 жыл бұрын

Tainted Grail Pro - It's a really beautiful product. Con - It's a really sh*t game.

@botousai Жыл бұрын

My wife and I got rid of the grind and we also made it so it doesn't take stamina to do an action at a location. Most people will not even beat the game ONCE, let alone replaying it multiple times to see what each location has to offer. I think campaign games need to stop designing for "replayability". Most people who buy campaign games by more than 1 and usually have a huge backlog. I will barely beat all of the ones I have once, let alone replay them before new ones come out over the coming years...

@Hendrycks 2 жыл бұрын

I've tried it twice now with my gf and the first time we really messed up and it was too difficult to get further by about Chapter 7 so we restarted the next day. That day, we got even further but it was to go all the way East to then be told we have to go all the way back West...and then we get there and we had to go all the way back. We ended up continuously saying "na, we can go a bit further and cheat" just to continue the story but then it didn't feel as tight. I enjoy the nature of the Menhirs but we did start doing 1 action to relight it, but having to house rule such an expensive game is so odd to me. Same with the Bloodborne Board Game having so many errata cards, etc and ppl needing to come up with better mechanics. If TG is your only game, I can see getting better at it, but I like playing and doing a bunch of different things, I don't have time to become an expert at 1 game, just to start enjoying it. We're trying once more in Story Mode and then I'm selling it if it doesn't go well, I'm very disappointed as we loved Nemesis so this was our 2nd Awaken Realms game as I love the theme.

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

I've heard a lot of feedback of people house ruling Tainted Grail or slightly cheating or finding ways to make it more accommodating, etc. Which I think just speaks to many of the flaws when so many people need to find things to change or ways to adjust it for it to be the experience they were looking for. I do hope that Awaken Realms attempts a fantasy-themed campaign game again in the future and takes some of the feedback from Tainted Grail in creating it! Because their world-building and exploration design is top notch!

@Judgedredd1973 2 жыл бұрын

Agreed, I was so disappointed and tried making house rules to save it but in the end I couldn't

@JJEMcManus 2 жыл бұрын

There are triggers that spark my interest in a game. Enough triggers and I start to “ya, but…” myself. Then there are the rebuttals to that, followed by rebuttals. Eventually, the resultant list is too damn big. The original spark of interest gets lost among the pros and cons. It’s what turned me off from original Gloomhaven (opinion revised after JOTL) and what soured me on TG. There’s a moment when a new game is revealed when “mine eyes glaze over”. Throw enough faff and nonsense in between me and that experience I get bored and move on.

@ryangilmore3678 2 жыл бұрын

I love this! While I haven't played TG, I understand and agree with your points. I would like to add that there are different types of "grinding". I have no issues playing for hours to grind out XP or coins in order to gain a level or get an item that improves my situation and makes me more powerful moving forward. What I can't stand is similar to what you're describing. Grinding to maintain what you've already earned. Similar with items that need to be repaired in other games. It's really not fun to have to work hard just to keep what you've already been working hard to get haha. Like you said, it just delays progress and progress is the goal of a campaign game. Love your content!

@AllYouCanBoard 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Ryan, great insights! I agree with you. Appreciate the kind words as well. ☺️

@kingxerocole4616 2 жыл бұрын

100% agree, so I have nothing to add :(

@Officegamecafe 2 жыл бұрын

I hated Tainted Grail for the exact reasons you did, plus the fact that combat and the rules in general were very hard to figure out from the rulebook. I also don’t like pausing a game for long passages of text. Hard pass for me.

@centertainment2969 Жыл бұрын

I can agree with your complaints but I still really love the game

@JohnnyMcNabb63 Жыл бұрын

I HATED Tainted Grail. I played until chapter 6. The only reason I haven’t gotten rid of it yet is because I painted the miniatures. They look amazing. At some point I will sell it.

@AllYouCanBoard Жыл бұрын

The miniatures are definitely detailed and stunning! I can imagine they look amazing when painted.

@andrewbrown496 Жыл бұрын

Just tried playing for a second time and it sucked. Although the narrative finally started to make sense, the card combination and thought required to string a bunch of boring symbols together made it soooooo overblown. What a wasted opportunity - not the first time awaken realms overproduced and overcomplicated a game!

@Julesplayssomemusic 2 жыл бұрын

Just sold my all-in copy kinda heartbroken..but after 5 attempts playing the campaign -solo, with two and with three- I’ve decided it could have been my most beloved game ever but just totally isn’t..real pitty. I lost all appetite to ever play it again. 🤷🏽‍♂️

@tigerpjm 2 жыл бұрын

Friends is a classic example of why people like Tainted Grail. Tell them how fun something is and they'll believe it. If it really was fun, why was a laugh track necessary? And look, let's not kid ourselves. Yes games are a matter of taste, but some people just have bad taste. How else do you explain Nickelback? Or Friends? Or Tainted Grail?