Exactly.

agreed

I'd have to disagree. Telling the story entirely in chronological order would actually ruin the ending. I can understand jumping back and forth between Ellie and Abby in an episode to concurrently show off what's going on during their day in Seattle, but the flashbacks have to remain flashbacks. If we see Joel and Ellie's relationship deteriorate then see her try to forgive Joel before he's killed, and then experience the meat of the story, then none of it will work. It'll be obvious to us why Ellie is doing what she's doing before she even realizes it for herself. Joel and Ellie's final conversation won't hit anywhere near as hard as it does in the game because we wouldn't have been through hell and back to earn that one ounce of kindness the game throws at us. A big part of Part 2's themes is exploring PTSD and trauma, and I honestly think the disjointed timeline of the narrative actually functions to feed into that. Time doesn't flow properly when you're dealing with grief and trauma. It can stay stagnant and jump around as your mind wanders, trying to ask all sorts of things like "where did it all go wrong," "why," and then linger on any what-ifs. The game (in my opinion) so fantastically puts you in Ellie's shoes. You are right there with her in all of this, even when playing as Abby. Afterall, they are two sides of the same coin. But I find that jumping around in time is essential for this story. You lose a lot of impact if you drastically reorganize any of the story.

@@ChristianJayTheCTrain I agree with the flashbacks I personally thought they worked really well, and those Ellie and Joel moments hit pretty hard. maybe they could have been reshuffled, though. I think they could be incorporated into the story chronologically effectively, some of them, but I actually like the ending scenes a lot, so I don't see the structure of the Ellie and Joel parts changing very much, but I really think they should've cut between Ellie and Abby much more frequently.

@@ChristianJayTheCTrain I absolutely agree that the flashbacks need to stay as flashbacks, maybe chronologically wasn't the right word in that regard. Instead, I think Ellie and Abby's timeline in SEATTLE should run concurrent with one another to make that section a bit more digestible. You made some great points

That's a good point, but to me it still wasn't as fun to PLAY as Ellie's section. Of course, this won't matter in an adaptation since we would just be watching it play out on a tv screen.

Exactly, and personally for me, I had more FUN playing Abby's part. Overall I think the game is a masterclass of writing. I'm glad it's so controversial we'll be talking about it for generations to come.

Yeah, that's like simplifying the first game as a escort mission.

That’s a lot of words to say Yara was Fridged 😐

@@KingKam93Same, Abby, Yara and Lev was this game's Joel, Triss and Ellie.

Time will tell!

I actually think that would go against what the devs actually wanted. I think the reason why the devs didn't give us time with Abby before she killed Joel is so that we could have that HUGE HATE that we would have to overcome as the game continued. If we had time to familiarize with her beforehand than it wouldn't have the same impact when you finally realise you don't want both women to continue suffering at the end.

​@@bug688 thisssss

​@@bug688 absolutely, they were trying to cause all sorts of emotions at once and throughout every turn of the game people don't understand the way they did it was on purpose to make us pissed off, Neil literally said "We want to push you into hate and see if we can pull you back again."

​@@bug688 Yep, there's no question that was deliberate. Unfortunately, the writers didn't quite have the chops to sell it for much of the audience - and it definitely didn't help that they switched perspectives by aborting the climax of Ellie's campaign. I've always thought it would have been way better if, after Ellie returned to the theater, rather than having Abby attack them, we just have the camera pan out from the theater on ground level, only for a combat boot to step in between the camera and theater, and THEN switch to Abby's campaign. It would have left enough suspense for the player to keep it in the back of their mind, without preemptively positioning them to be frustrated at the WRITERS. Abby's campaign does not at all benefit from going in there already expecting the writers to jerk you around as they see fit. Makes it harder to overlook things like the overuse of coincidences and the speedrun of her overnight ride or die bond with Lev.

I have high hopes!

That would be a great idea imo. Thanks for this comment

Ooh I was thinking about how they could use the Abby flashbacks in season 2 without ruining the twist when Joel dies, but keeping the loss of her dad ambiguous until Joel's death would be so good.

I really hope they do it like this, I think a lot of the characters felt a bit "flat", like Dina, Jesse, etc, and even more on Abby's side. A season of building up all their different relationships and also getting to know Abby more would make the story of Part II much more engaging and impactful. Imagine the difference in impact between Jesse's death in the game and Jesse's death in season 3 of the show after we've gotten to know him during season 2.

That would make the season 50% made up filler, and Craig already said that’s not going to happen. Especially if your then going to essentially cram the entire plot of the second game into a third season.

They’re definitely not doing this chronologically and they are gonna stay true to the game

Well said.

Agreed! And I think the show would benefit from more flashbacks to drive home their relationship, since we only got nine episodes worth in the first season. No matter what they do though, I'm cautiously optimistic for season 2 and/or 3.

I finished Part 2 yesterday....and i like abby as well as ellie

It was confirmed it will run for two seasons although there’s speculation it could run more than that. The only concern I have is the moving away from the games and continuing on which generally hasn’t gone well for other shows that have done it. Edit: I just saw an article where it said season 2 will be “ different “ from the games and will span multiple seasons. I think if they can really dive into the story/characters the show will be better than how the game was received.

@@claudiap.53 good thing you can play as both of them taking care of the stupid baby in part 3

Preach.

How? Explain..?

@@kylenegaard6461 In order to make a cure, Ellie would die, saving millions of people, Joel made the sacrifice of saving Ellie and killing the doctor, so they didn’t make a cure, basically it’s how the doctors would kill Ellie (hence the hero part), and Joel ( saving Ellie but killing the doctors, sacrificing the one and only chance for a cure, the villain part).

​@@Sythe._. I am very curious though, how are the Fireflies not equally villainous based on their actions towards Joel *and Ellie* in the game?

@@kylenegaard6461 they were fighting for a “cause” while they see Joel as a backstabbing smuggler, who’s only purpose was to deliver their cargo (Ellie), and he killed they entire firefly crew, and made humanity doomed to the virus

Level and mechanic design is one thing, story is another. In all ways but story, Part 2 was top notch. But a better story would have made it truly great. The production values of Part 2 might have distracted from the story quality, but that's very subjective. A truly good game marries the quality of all of its aspects.

@@kilroy987 Part 2 has all the qualities of a great story; the characters mirror each other, Abby becomes like Joel, and Ellie becomes like Abby bc she felt like she had no purpose after not providing a cure and then losing Joel. But she finally understands that Joel saved her from the hospital for her to ultimately experience a fulfilling life, not for her to waste it on grief and regret. So when she has agency over Abby's fate for the 1st time in SB, Ellie chooses to spare her and moves on to seek real help for her PTSD. The story expands on TLOU1's themes of grief, sense of purpose, and trauma, but the creators said the script is laid out like the pacing of a novel with all the POV switches, flashbacks, and the epilogue. It's not a story that's traditionally made for a videogame, so not everyone could understand it or connect to the characters. The creators also said they didn't want to make forgiving Abby "too easy", so they already knew it was going to be controversial. But for the show they might change that approach, bc with a passive experience, characters need more screen time for viewers to get attached. Plus it'll be easier to do POV switches and time jumps like they did for season 1.

Mean muscle lady kill nice man. Game bad.

Me too!!!! The reason why I want to make game artist my job haha

​@jay2thaudy human psychology is bad, human players react normally to guardian figure dying to stranger angrily, THEREFORE humanity= bad, game GOOD, Society baaad, moralizing GOOD. Everyone else wrong, me right.

Thank you!

My guy

Solid points. Idk, to me it still felt too long. Maybe that's just an overall pacing issue. Still really enjoyed the game and the story tho!

Fair enough!

Honestly couldn't have said it better myself. The divisive reactions were inevitable based on the route they decided to take for the game. I really liked it, and others hated. It really challenged us emotionally in a way that I've never seen from a videogame, and I appreciate it. I just hope the adaptation is slightly less controversial. Thanks for the comment

exactly. and honestly, they WANTED us to have that big emotional moment of putting the controller down, yelling “FUCK NO IM NOT PLAYING AS HER?!” and eventually sitting back down to see the story out, and see her side. risky and divisive, but EXACTLY how they wanted it to go. plus it just wouldn’t play well back and forth. but the show can do that, though i am sad my parents won’t get to experience that defiance at the devs😂

True I just think there was no way that story could have been perfectly implemented into a video game.

Thank you so much that means the world to me! We're on the grind

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed! And yes, they definitely should do a Lev (and Yara) bottle episode, since it seems like there's so much more story to tell there.

To me, that was the entire point though. It made us play as this character who was nothing but a complete villain, forcing you to try to empathize with her through her 3 days in Seattle. By doing this, the impact of the ending is entirely dependent on the player's understanding of Abby. They made us hate her, then tried to reel us back in. It was incredibly ambitious, and I respected that. I think it worked well for me, but I could see why it didn't work as well for others.

​@@thoughtprojectI can agree and say it was ambitious, but in my perspective and opinion it failed miserably because there were so many moments that portrayed Abby as a uncaring monster. I think a good example I can use is how ellie reacted to killing a pregnant woman. She was horrified about what she just did, but if you compare her to Abby who almost looked like she was in joy killing a pregnant woman. They tried to make a character sympathetic, but there are not that many redeeming qualities to said character.

I think abby wasnt as sympathetic as Ellie was because Ellie had literally just killed Mel and for all she knew Ellie killed her knowing she was pregnant. not only that but Abby doesnt even end up killing her so i think it was done pretty well. I know where you're coming from seeing we played in ellies perspective more so its easier to take her side however i dont think abbys redemption failed, sure a lot of people dont end up forgiving her but a lot do it just comes down to the player

​@@stur3366She had just lost her friends and one of the only people she cared about since childhood. She wasn't on good terms with Mel but through her perspective someone just came in and killed a baby so I'm sure that added fuel aswell. We literally just playing 10 hrs of Ellie for revenge. I don't know about you but I didn't give 2 sh!t about Abby's group at the beginning of the game. I just wanted them dead. They even give you the information that Mel(this character you don't know) was pregnant at the start of the game. Did that information cross my mind while I was hunting them down as Ellie? Absolutely not. I've played the game multiple times and there was no pleasure on Abby's face when she was about to kill Dina(who in her mind is just as responsible as Ellie and Tommy). It was just rage. Which Lev was able to calm with just one word.

Exactly.

I cant wait either!

Same! I loved Abby as a character, so interesting. Can't wait to see who plays her.

Time will tell!

I agree. I hope they spend more time on the cults and militias that popped up during that time.

I agree, it's a shame it was so divisive though. Let's hope the TV format will appeal to more people

Great take! Let's see what happens.

Thank you! I'm not sure if they'll make an entire season leading up to Joel's death, but I guess we'll see!

I'm not sure they would be able to make a whole season leading up Joel's death, Craig Mazin already said it was going to stay true to the majority of the source material. I hope we get at least 2-3 episodes before his death though, ideally opening with the museum flashback. I think they could make a damn good premiere out of it, thus giving the audience a little more time with Joel before he meets his demise.

@@thoughtproject ideal outcome

You bring up a very valid point. However, for a whole 10-12 hour section to lack focus in a videogame is a big reason why a lot of people disliked Abby's campaign. Narratively, it makes sense, but for many it wasn't fun to play. With that said, I genuinely think they can adapt the same story beats as the game and it will be more effective since we aren't playing as Abby, we are simply watching her storyline play out. I hope that makes sense.

@@thoughtproject Most haters didn't play Abby's portion of the game if they played at all they honestly have no clue what Abby's portions contain as they didn't play it and run off heresay some don't even watch full clips for full context they watched edited snips so they can have agendas so I don't think they actually get what OP said to me the down time for Abby is what Joel was doing before he found Ellie as abby is just post raider joel moving into father joel role as the story goes on.

Thank you so much

Thank you so much! That means a lot

At least you kept an open mind. It just didn't work for some people. It worked for me, but I can understand why it didn't for you.

SPOILER FOR RDR2 I was kinda shocked when I had to start playing as Abby, but I for one quickly accepted her as my main protagonist and liked playing her as well as Ellie (and Joel). I think I looked at it from the perspective of Red Dead Redemption - when I played the first game as John Marsden I remember how much I wanted to play the endgame as him and not his son. So when RDR2 came out I was bummed to play Arthur Morgan - but as the game progressed I fell in love with Arthur and was heartbroken when he dies in the end. But I finally got to play as John Marsden in the endgame - but all I wanted to do was to play as Arthur. It's funny how your mind plays tricks on you - and I think reminiscing back to that realisation made TLOU2 more acceptable to me even though it's not quite the same thing.

@@gooddoggo3547 Imo people put way too much weight on the game trying to push some kind of morality or deciding what’s good or bad when in my eyes it was purely about every story having two sides.

Interesting idea

Thank you so much! :)

Thank you so much!

Thank you so much

@@thoughtproject oh you will with this quality

Agreed

Yeah, it's probably going to happen. I just hope we get a little more time with Pedro than we did with Troy Baker in the game.

@@thoughtproject I also understand why many people hate part II and it’s mostly because Joel’s death and it’s because they lost an important character they bond with. But part II is surely not a bad game I just wish Joel died like a hero. Hopefully they’ll do it better in season 2

Cry more you pu$$y

Thank you so much! More on the way

Thank you so much!

Thank you so much for the support!

That’s fair, I just think if they do anything different with the story and how it plays out, you lose the effect the game had on its audience. There’s no point in changing around story beats to try suit a general audience, people will love or hate it regardless

what XD

Well said. I loved the game as well

I'm glad you feel that way! I more so had an issue with the overall pacing (the screeching halt at the theater climax) so I think rearranging the events chronologically for the show will help prevent that.

@@thoughtproject yeah i’m definitely open to it with the show. i just think it needs to be the way it is for the game to do what it’s trying to do. enjoyed the video! can’t wait for season 2

The showrunner Craig Mazin said they were going to stay true to the majority of the source material, so I'm not sure they would create a whole season of strictly new material. I think 2 seasons is good for Part II's adaptation, with the right pacing.

I appreciate that so much

Well said!

Thanks for the support! I am so eager to see what they do with season 2, and how much they play around with

I love to hear that!

Thank you so much

Agreed!

Very possible

Yeah I really hope they can pull this off.

honestly I think the opposite. I think pedros Joel was not really that great and for that reason people will be less outraged than they were at the game version’s death

@@persolus689i disagree. Pedro brought a lot of humanity to Joel as a character, he is far more compassionate and inherently lovable. The entirety of part one Joel is very much a hard ass (for good reason) but Pedro’s take felt so human and alive and ugh, his death will definitely hit me harder i’d say.

@@damimami5144 that's interesting. i'm glad you were able to get that out of your watch, cuz i found him incredibly lifeless compared to troy baker's joel in the original game. i thought baker did the hard-ass joel much better, incredibly visceral and merciless, while pedro seemed like he was sleepwalking through the first half of the show -- before he became a literal half corpse for the second half of the show -- and was incredibly toned down in his kill count (which i understand is inherently going to be lesser in a TV show than a video game). he didn't do the accent as well, his lines weren't delivered as well, and i just thought overall he was a remarkably useless character that wasn't given much to do and didn't do much with it, compared to his video game depiction which ultimately made him one of the most beloved game protagonists in all of video game history. that was just my reaction though. edit: just wanting to add thoughts about how i found baker more compassionate too. like i really felt that connection between him and ellie throughout the game, and him sobbing over sarah's death felt a lot less forced than pedro's performance to me. when he calls ellie 'baby girl' after she kills david in the game, my heart broke, i was itching to see how heartfelt the show version of that scene would be, and it was just him waddling up to her mumbling that it's him while she starts shrieking, found it kind of ridiculous personally. anyways.

Absolutely true. While I did enjoy the story, and even felt empathy for Abby, it took too long to get to the end. I did like that Ellie spared her too, but again, it could have came way sooner. Simply watching Abby's plot play out on a television screen will work far better than actually playing as her in my opinion.

I think having players play as Abby was done intentionally for us to feel so conflicted. I mean, as the video points out, Ellie's horrendous acts also made us feel conflicted, as many players grew to dislike Ellie a little bit and just wanted her stop, while simultaneously still rooting for her, as we understood where she was coming from. In my opinion, all these conflicting emotions led to Abby vs Ellie being one of the best boss fights in gaming history. Yes, I was one of the 90% that had Abby killed first. But going in with so much inner turmoil while at the same time finding out how dangerous Ellie actually is was in my opinion masterfully done. For most players to by the end not want either Abby nor Ellie to die, makes me believe that all the conflicting emotions we felt was intentional. I actually think that if the show could make us feel the same way, it would benefit the show. I mean, aren't the best shows the shows that make us FEEL something? Whether it be anger, hate, sympathy, empathy, fear or happiness, wouldn't it be a good thing to have people talking? In my view at least, it would. I personally think the game's divided fan base was caused more by the attributed wokeness (caused by the leaks) that made people rebel against it, than the game's story structure or even Joel's death. I think that with it now being years ago and the rage having died down, the story structure, whether it be in the game or in the show, might not cause as much rage as it did before. But of course, that's just my view.

@@neil8701 Yes I think for the narrative side of things it certainly achieved that idea and many other surrounding themes, concepts etc. very very effectively! I definitely won't say I wasn't hit hard emotionally by the game by any stretch The part of it I didn't like is that at the core of it, I think there is simply something intrinsically 'wrong' 'backwards' with being expected to feel for and be Abby. It had less to do with negative emotions around the nature of the story, but the ability to be immersed in the game itself. One of the elements of video games is the illusion of having some level of control, and through the nature of the first game, we are fundamentally told that we are supposed to BE Ellie in this game. We are supposed to think irrationally and we are supposed to bypass any empathy we could possibly even have for Abby unless Ellie HERSELF starts feeling those things. Why? Because that's exactly what we did as Joel in the first game. Killing all of the innocent fireflies in the hospital to save Ellie was a very very wrong thing to do, but as the player we are not prompted to feel guilty because we ARE Joel, and due to his love for Ellie he (and therefore us) would do it all over again. All of this sets a fourth wall precedent about our expectations as the player that we tend to just accept, kind of like how we just accept that all the gunshot wounds the characters in the game take should probably severely injure them and make it impossible for them to press on but we ignore it for the sake of the game. Your opinion is definitely valid and what you described no doubt I experienced but the above issue keeps eating at me a little bit. I think a potential solution would be to play as a different wolf who is on the same side as Abby, but who knows, maybe it wouldn't impact in the same way

Thanks so much! I'm glad you agree with me, and yes, I think HBO gets a bigger chunk of the budget for season 2. I'm glad you enjoyed!

Thanks for the support!

Thank you so much!! Trying to be more consistent

Come on now.

That means a lot

Well said.

Right!!

Thank you!

Oh yes. This game is insane lol

Preach.

Thank you!!

Thank you!

Thank you

Whatever they do, my hopes remain high for Part II's adaptation. Thanks for your support!

Critics of the game have not been shy with the many critiques to be had. To not understand is an admission of ignorance. You should not be proud to be ignorant.

Same. I was very conflicted after my first playthrough, and felt like I was going through so many emotions at once

Thank you! I'm glad to hear that!

Thank you!

Facts

I thought the same thing when they cast Ellie, and how Ramsey did not resemble her in the slightest. I was proven completely wrong, and she was an amazing choice for the role. I have faith that HBO got this one right too, but I see where you're coming from.

Preach.

Thank you

Source?

From one of the co-creators himself "However, for those hoping that season 2 will get the same treatment when it finally arrives, things might be a little different. Craig Mazin has now teased that season 2 will be "different" and "be its own thing." Speaking at a virtual press conference reported by Variety, Craig revealed that plans for season 2 are starting to take shape, and that it will be both "different radically" and "barely different at all" from The Last of Us: Part II game." . I can't post links in youtube comments so just google it.

Interesting! Can't wait to see what they do then!

I hope so!

Much love!

My thoughts exactly. Mazin is gonna spice it up.

Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed!

Sure, Part II might be more difficult to adapt, but I think it will work better as a finished product. The fact that they now have the creative liberty to change some things around to make it flow better bodes well, and that goes double for Mazin confirming it will be more different from the game. Sometimes, when done right, unfaithful elements from the source material can go a long way.

I'm glad to hear that!

Easily my favorite scene of the game

THIS. I couldn't find the words until just now, you described it perfectly.

Good points, and yeah I think Abby is overhated

Facts

That may be true, but I still think they should change it up somehow. Because I don't think fans would be happy with weekly episodes during Abby's timeline. Just a thought

Comments like these is what makes me want to push more content. Thank you so much

@@thoughtproject of course, keep making amazing content man!

That would probably be a good change to make, but time will tell

That is a solid point. But at the same time, I'm not sure as if the game format would work well as a show, especially considering there would only be 1 episode per week. If we were stuck on Abby's perspective for the majority of a season, I think it would lose a lot of viewers.

@@thoughtproject yeah for sure. I think TLOU2‘a uses its structure to take advantage of its medium, to make you feel complicit in Ellie’s actions, and it subvert the idea of faceless NPC’s as obstacles that’s present in so many games including so many of Naughty Dog’s previous works. The show will most definitely have to restructure to try and take advantage of the new medium.

Couldn't agree more.

i hope and pray if they come out with a director’s cut of the game, they add a chronological mode for the seattle section, kinda like beyond two souls remaster did. The hard cut is jarring even on replays.

Well said.

Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed!

I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for watching!