Why the tonal shift in Fellowship of the Ring?

Рет қаралды 345,424

Жыл бұрын

Middle Earth Lore
Fellowship of the Ring
Gandalf, Tolkien, Wizards, Rings of Power, LOTR, Lord of the Rings, Return of the King, Hobbits, Frodo, Bilbo

Пікірлер: 407

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

🤔 Want more answers ❓❓❓ 👉 Check out the full video on BILBO'S RING on my channel: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z9eIjMWVrdjUgGw.html

@beneficent2557 11 ай бұрын

Interesting Theory. Where does the tone in Fellowship actually shift? Could make for a great video.

@peterclarke7006 2 ай бұрын

Erm... But the tonal shift in the books happens during the Barrow Wight encounter, which happens before they even reach Bree. So what on earth are you blathering about?! 😂

@NhatDo-fs6eh Жыл бұрын

Explanation: Tolkien left English countryside to the western front.

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Leave it to Tolkien to feel he needs to write in an in-universe explanation for his real life 🤣

@primusfett 11 ай бұрын

That's what i thought was the reason all this years. What I understood was Tolkien started writing the book b4 the Great War & continued the rest when he came back (after seeing the horrors of a real war)

@KyleDevy 10 ай бұрын

He'd be rolling in his grave after hearing that

@FantasticExplorers 9 ай бұрын

That was years before he wrote the books! He was working on his universe back then, but had not even thought of hobbits yet.

@kvonkirk2340 8 ай бұрын

You're completely right!

@RealUlrichLeland Жыл бұрын

I think the tonal shift probably has more to do with how Frodo's character changes dramatically after being stabbed at weathertop. He never fully recovers from the wound, and his soul was nearly sucked into the wraith world until Elrond saved him, so he probably lost some amount of his soul from the incident.

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

@dorgesh, ok ok ok... that's actually a pretty cool idea. I'm thinking it's written by Bilbo + Frodo. Your thinking Happy Frodo + Dark Frodo. I love it! Polite challenge to you though: Farmer Maggot. Yep it's that scene where Farmer Maggot tells off the Witch King and he runs away from the hobbit as fast as he can. To me, the Nazgul are so comical and silly there that it has to be Bilbo that wrote that. At the earliest, Frodo could have written it in Rivendell, but that's still after Weathertop and after that I can't image Frodo every being so comical when talking about Nazgul. It's just too flippant and silly I think. What do you think?

@RealUlrichLeland Жыл бұрын

@@thegreyhavens167 It's an interesting idea and you may be right. I reckon Bilbo probably only wrote the story for the stuff in the Shire because that's what he would've been familiar enough with to give a convincing portrayal and like you say the tone is quite similar to the hobbit for those chapters. I'd say at the most he wrote up to meeting Tom Bombadil. With the amount of adventuring Bilbo's done he's probably pretty extensively explored the shire and met Tom. Bilbo never really encountered any wraiths though, unless he ever happened to come across the barrow wights without our knowledge. Perhaps Bilbo wrote chapters for everything up to Rivendell, but then Frodo rewrote the chapters after weathertop to give a more accurate portrayal of the horror of the nazgûl.

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

@dorgesh, I think your right. I was thinking Frodo took over in Rivendell, but I didn't really think about WEATHERTOP. That sounds way more like Frodo than Bilbo. That sounds like someone that went through some dark stuff! What about the Barrow Wight? My guess is Bilbo cuz it's still playful to me??.... which would mean Frodo took over around Bree maybe?

@sableempire9654 8 ай бұрын

Read a biography of Tolkien. The author literally explains why - in letters to his son Christopher AND the obvious answer- his publisher wanted a CHILDRENS SEQUEL to The Hobbit. Because it was a commercial success. LOTR STARTED as a children’s tale but as he wrote (it took 14yrs to complete ) the novel takes a different path. Tolkien was a Professor in Languages he wanted to create a mythology for England the same way Norse and Scandinavian mythology played a role in their culture. Tolkien literally tells us the reason in his OWN words.

@the-chillian 7 ай бұрын

Canonically, Bilbo starts work on the adventures of Frodo & company, but becomes too drowsy to finish it and hands it over to Frodo. Quite the opposite happened with Frodo. He had grown spiritually into a "considerable person", as Tolkien described him in one of his letters, able in the end to extend mercy even to Saruman.

@jakobfromthefence 2 ай бұрын

“The last pages are for you, Sam”

@thegreyhavens167 2 ай бұрын

For some reason, that line always hits me in the feels. 😥

@Andrea_Weird 6 күн бұрын

Ok, that brought some tears to my eyes. 😢

@ericstoverink6579 11 ай бұрын

You may also notice that as Sam amd Frodo get closer to Mordor the focus is more on Sam. We are reading more and more from his POV. So, my head canon is that Frodo was so exhausted and out of it during this part that he didn't really remember much of it and relied on Sam to fill in those details. The same with Pippin during the chapters in Minas Tirith amd Merry in Rohan. Since Frodo wasn't there he had to take notes from them.

@vilyar122 6 ай бұрын

The last pages are for you, Sam.

@mancubwwa 13 күн бұрын

If you dig in it's interesting who Frodo relies on to tell him a story. While he obviously prefers Hobbits, and so whenever there is a Hobbit on a scene he becomes POV charachter, but when not, his first choice seems to be Gimli, as he has some chapters, and after that he'd go to random humans like Faramir o Eomer. Only as a last resort he'll breng Aragorn as POV charachter, if no one else was present or everyone present was Either an Elf or Gandalf, as they never get POVs

@remyetiennelebeau8364 3 күн бұрын

@@mancubwwathat’s really interesting. I’ve heard about “look for a nearest hobbit” but I never quite catch that Aragorn has very little POV time, Elves and Gandalf never had POV.

@Zephandolf 2 ай бұрын

I did notice that the two halves of FOTR seemed like different stories, but I didn't realize it was because Bilbo kept the Red Book of Westmarch up until Rivendell.

@thegreyhavens167 2 ай бұрын

Yep, Bilbo's writing style is like a kids book almost. Frodos is more epic fantasy. Bilbo hears all about their adventures when they get to Rivendell and that's notes and writes their story. When the get back, he is too old to continue writing, so Frodo takes over. Now Bilbo spends much of his time translating books from Elrond's library. The appendix in ROTK and most of the other writings we have are pretty much all from BB. 😎 (What a legend!)

@Gay_Priest 15 күн бұрын

This youtuber is wrong, the two halves of fellowship feel like two different books because they literally are. Tolkien wrote Lord of The Rings as six book, and the publisher merged them into three against his wishes. In-universe, Frodo wrote all of LoTR, and Bilbo wrote all of The Hobbit

@GandalfsHorse84 Жыл бұрын

The truth is Tolkien didn’t know what story he was telling until he got to the Council of the Ring. He wrote himself into the plot and once he figured it out the story shifted noticeably.

@iamrubenmes 10 ай бұрын

Although mindblowing if Tolkien designed this switch, I think his own development along the way is more plausible. But I can imagine that such subtle nuances grow into it in the making, as I feel Tolkien has unconsciously created beautiful motives which he allowed to grow at their own pace to take their place in the story.

@SanjayMerchant 9 ай бұрын

Yeah, I think what would become The Lord of the Rings started out as basically The Hobbit 2. Hence the lighter tone early on (not to mention the existence of Tom Bombadil). The in-universe justification of changing authorship is a pretty cool addition, though.

@SnaresAndNets 9 ай бұрын

You got it. I actually took an English elective in college on Tolkien. He was forced into writing a sequel for the hobbit, when he really wanted to write the silmarillion. So the beginning of the lord of the rings is meandering and without huge focus until rivendell, as he really didn’t know what he was writing about yet.

@pericajuric7326 9 күн бұрын

Tolkien was famous for going back to rewrite stuff to fit the new so that theory doesnt hold. He actually went back to rewrite parts of hobbit for lotr... hobbit was long time finished and published when he did that. That is even touched on in lotr by bilbo admiting he gave false accounts of his dealings with gollum

@curtis5799 9 ай бұрын

Not once have I ever thought this question. Never felt a tonal shift while reading lotr.

@vdoggydogg3922 5 ай бұрын

Because its a dumb theory.

@novacorponline 5 ай бұрын

Its a lot more subtle than a lot of people imply. I think the most obvious detail is embellishment. The Hobbit and the first few chapters of Fellowship are far grander. There are stone giants feuding in a storm, creating the sound of thunderclaps. There are dumb trolls tricked into turning to stone. He fought a horde of giant spiders with naught but an elfish dagger. A duel between Gandalf and the dark riders created a lightshow in the sky over weathertop, Elrond swept the riders away with a torrent of water shaped into a line of steeds. But after rivendell? That basically all stops. Its a lot more grounded, magic is only ever a subtle thing after that point; No more epic light shows or direct contests of magical might. It MOSTLY is used to hinder or bolster morale. Almost no talking monsters exist outside of the Orcs and Uruk. Its sort of like Bilbo was writing a grand tale to tell to visitors over a campfire while Frodo was writing a historical account of what he experienced.

@martinarreola64 2 ай бұрын

@@novacorponlinethat’s amazing

@justaguy2365 Ай бұрын

Neither have I. The first half is pretty dark and mysterious. It scared me as a kid. The pursuit of the black riders in the wilderness especially

@peacemaker9807 Ай бұрын

I think it's simpler than that. The real seriousness of the quest had not really got started. The beginning was easy mode if you will.

@sameehkins5957 Жыл бұрын

With 100% respect, this isnt entirely accurate. While the book was written by two different authors (in world) it wasnt written in the parts as you stated them. At best, bilbo wrote 2 chapters (the shire stuff), the rest (95% of it) was written by Frodo. As soon as Frodo and Sam leave The Shire, its Frodo writing (not from rivendel).

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

@sameehkins5957, thanks for the comment. You could be right.... all we know for certain is that Bilbo started it and Frodo finished it. Here is why I think Bilbo wrote more than you did: ** Farmer Maggot and the Witch King ** : to me, this part is 100% Bilbo's writing. The hobbit thumbs his nose up at the witch king and the black rider runs away scared. There is NO WAY that's how that interaction really went down. That's Bilbo's writing, stretching the truth as he always does to make dangers more playful and hobbits seem more cool. Frodo actually had first hand experience with the Nazgul and would never write about them that way. He is terrified when he writes about Nazgul. I also think I hear Bilbo's playful voice with Bombadil and the Barrow Wight. I also hear it when he describes his best pal Stryder in Bree. So I think my best guess would be the switch is around Weathertop or Glorfindel maybe?? Anyway, what do you think? am I way off here with my guesses? What makes you think it switches earlier?

@morganrrhaze Жыл бұрын

@@thegreyhavens167it could also be that Frodo wrote his part up to Rivendell before leaving with the fellowship so even though he had been scared before he wasn’t totally traumatized like he would’ve been after finally returning home. That could also account for the tonal shift. Especially if he had been trying to match Bilbo tone to begin with.

@tomtripp5417 Жыл бұрын

@@morganrrhazeFrodo was changed after he met Strider in Bree. He suddenly became aware how serious the situation was, especially after the ring slipped onto his finger. His whole sheltered, safe little world all of sudden became something beyond his imaging, and he had to wisen up immediately

@alexabney7913 11 ай бұрын

That’s what I was thinking. The tone shifts right as they leave the shire.

@gototheend1139 11 ай бұрын

This gets even more insane when the Canon explanation of us reading the story if that Tolkien didn't actually write this he supposedly found the story and translated it So it's the localization of a story about a story that was supposedly real

@TETASARAIVACS 9 ай бұрын

Actually, during his stay in Rivendell Bilbo finishes his _There and back again_ and writes some translations from ancient Elvish Lore. Frodo writes that first part of “The Fellowship”, and only when he comes back from his journeys south. Frodo’s our narrator, and his accounts are completed by the accounts from others of the Companions (many times they recounted their stories of their journeys to each other along the way)

@thevoid98052 11 ай бұрын

Which is a masterful example of writing

@thegreyhavens167 11 ай бұрын

100%!!!

@gavelston3943 10 ай бұрын

Side note, if you like punk and country, that cover of Country Roads is by Conexus and it rocks

@Beorthere 11 ай бұрын

Tolkien was a fantastic author

@lovellmendez2207 Жыл бұрын

So in other words, you're telling me that to become a great writer, I gotta have split personalities. I thought I needed therapy.

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Seems to me you are well on the path to greatness 😂

@alexnovak2669 11 ай бұрын

Correlation does not equal causation, but if you want a second opinion just ask yourself.

@ayudameporfavor1146 11 ай бұрын

@@alexnovak2669😂😂😂😂😂

@Terron-de-pimienta 7 ай бұрын

Nah, just release your inner Gollum.

@patrickoconnell9387 Жыл бұрын

So everything we know about Tom Bombadil is what Bilbo remembers from what Frodo told him about what happened

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

EXACTLY! I dont know how all the people in these stories remember the songs and poems so well! The entire story is written in this way, maybe to give it the feel of actual mythology / ancient history (handed down from one generation to another in unreliable ways). I think this is one of the things that set Tolkien apart and makes his works seem so "real". He never writes as himself (the creator/god/etc with exact knowledge) but instead always writes from the viewpoint of someone else that might be unreliable. So yeah, who knows how much of Tommy B was actually true and how much was Bilbo being "generous" with the story.????

@TomsBackyardWorkshop 9 ай бұрын

I've read all of them multiple times and never notice except that the seriousness of the quest was now known to all. It went from a quest to save Frodo to saving all of Middle Earth.

@blackforestwaltz Жыл бұрын

This is a super interesting point! I had never really thought of that (though I haven't read the books yet so maybe the tonal shift isn't as obvious in the movies). Ngl though, I totally thought you meant that the books were written in real life by two different people during those first few seconds XD

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Oh yeah.... I got you!! Thanks for the cool comment!

@htsbrickreviews 2 ай бұрын

I thought it was because in Rivendell they embarked on their epic journey

@saramm3765 9 күн бұрын

I love stories with established couples. We don't get enough of those.

@cool-guycharlie6380 2 ай бұрын

If you can’t follow how it went from a “fine adventure” to “life or death uncertainty” then you must have fallen asleep somewhere and woke up to Gandalf falling down with the Ballrog idk man just pay attention.

@hippomancy 11 күн бұрын

Tolkien started Silmarillion, initially, playing with language and for tale, then wrote a light fiction called The Hobbit- tonally joyful. the sequel started tonally the same, but Silmarillion leaked in, and he realized he had a much more serious story, and as a more mature writer he shifted. Tom Bombadil was from the Hobbit sequel, whereas after Rivendell it was a quest perilous in Silmarillion's dark historical style.

@thegreyhavens167 11 күн бұрын

Great comment. Well said friend. Maybe you should be the one making videos... I would subscribe! Totally agree with you. Leave it to Tolkien to feel he needs to invent an in-universe reason to account for the change in style 🤣🤣🤣

@limepelt2348 27 күн бұрын

When you're so good at writing that you start writing writing styles into your writing

@HazeDer420. 4 ай бұрын

Technically it has 3 as sam wrote the gray havens

@kevind6723 11 ай бұрын

The actual reason for the tonal shift is the first few chapter of fellowship were meant to be a sequel to the hobbit, but at one point Tolkien decided to transition in to this epic. Plus the series was never intended as a trilogy. Tolkien had envisioned the story being told in a series of 6 books, but the publishers felt that it would work better as a trilogy.

@EpicTastyPapple Ай бұрын

What I love about the beginning of the book is how slow it is. You’re just following hobbits while they do menial things like selling a house and moving to a new one. It’s light hearted, kind of like revisiting the tone of The Hobbit, and then Frodo is stabbed on weather top. It’s then that we begin to see a drastic change in the story, the stakes are seen as they are, as if the Hobbits begin to understand that a “shadow is growing”. And then Gandalf dies. And then Boromir goes crazy and dies, and then Merry and Pippen are taken and dragged and tormented for weeks by threatening Orcs. And on it goes.

@dbsthumper 10 ай бұрын

maybe Disney should hire both Baggins as screenwriters,they couldn't do worse,lol...

@JFrazer4303 Жыл бұрын

Bilbo stung a few spiders, and led them on a chase so the dwarves could get away. The movies change things and throw in lots of extra stuff. If you're critiquing the movies, you're talking about what Jackson did, not about the original works.

@user-sr4no9jh7i Жыл бұрын

Makes total sense now. Never thought of it that way. Is that why the Nazgul are so silly/weak in the beginning?

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Yep. Bilbo shows the hobbits intimidating and chasing off the black riders. Afterwards, we see then as much more serious/scary.

@mollymcdonagh75 5 ай бұрын

Noo, it’s because the power of the ring isn’t as strong when it’s far from Mordor… It gets stronger (and therefore so do the ringwraiths) the closer they get to Sauron

@TheWorldUnited1 6 ай бұрын

Ooh, yes of course because Bilbo gives the book to Frodo. That makes so much sense🙈 re read the Fellowship of the ring this weekend. Didnt connect the dots until seeing this video. Thank you very much😁🙌

@thegreyhavens167 6 ай бұрын

Yes!!! Your welcome, and that's awesome. This is my favorite comment ever!! Thank you. 🙇 Note: leave it to Tolkien to feel he has to write in an in-universe reason for why his real world writing style changed 😅😅

@owenwesterhout Жыл бұрын

Tolkien, what a legend

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Agreed. I'm impressed he even thought to make an in-universe explanation!

@LarryFlathmann 14 күн бұрын

That is so true! 🤣🤣🤣 I've read the book time and time again and I almost always can't help but laugh at the total change! Book 1 😸❤️ Book 2 🧨💢!

@thegreyhavens167 13 күн бұрын

I'm always a bit surprised at folks who wrote be that they never noticed it 🤷😅 Question, where do you feel the author switches? I kinda guess weathertop maybe? 🤔. Seems to me like BB paints the Nazgul as menacing but not really too frightful.... While Frodo writes then as terrifying! So scary weathertop=Frodo in my guess. Oh and Tommy B feels like classic Bilbo to me! 🤣

@marcpope7069 11 ай бұрын

The author pretended to be two different authors??? Damn!

@yokhojota6792 6 ай бұрын

I always thought it was Tolkien who wrote those books. We lear everyday ! :D

@ka1ne669 5 ай бұрын

Bilbo never said he killed an army of spiders, the only kill he confirms is one of them while the dwarves helped take out the rest.

@user-mk4mw4zn3l Ай бұрын

Me, having read the books multiple times and never noticed this: *questions intelligence*

@jimbrown6709 Жыл бұрын

it did not appear to me that way. one thing i must note though, that supports your theory, is that the first book has way more poems, and many of them are credited to Bilbo

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

The first half or so just always seemed fun and "playful" to me. Like when the Witch King get's dressed down by Farmer Maggot. Sounds more to me like Bilbo (who never saw a Nazgul) telling the story than Frodo (who I suspect would never describe them like that!). But yeah, just a guess on my part for sure...

@joshuadempsey5281 Жыл бұрын

I really love this idea

@QuantumTap Жыл бұрын

Naw it's because JRRT takes you from an English farm village to literal fucking war. That's kind of the point of the book

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Well said. Your definitely not wrong!! Leave it to Tolkien to feel he has to create an in-universe explanation for the change in writing style and essentially write himself into the book. ＼（〇◡ｏ）／

@jenniflower6569 Ай бұрын

Bilbo: *kills about 3 spiders in the movie* "excuse me, but I killed an army of spiders!"

@benfarrar741 6 ай бұрын

This is the coolest thing I've learned about LOTR in a long time. We did NOT deserve Tolkien.

@Daemon023 Жыл бұрын

Never really paid much attention to this, but doesn't the second half simply have more action since first you need the build-up?? Or does this refer to the book only (writing style maybe)?

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Yep, book only. The first half is full of silly kid adventures between the shire and bree. It's AWESOME stuff, but def for kids. Peter Jackson just skipped over all of it in the movies and went straight to Bree.

@Hero_Of_Old 11 ай бұрын

@@thegreyhavens167 I wouldn't say its 'silly kid adventures'

@stevendouglas3781 9 ай бұрын

Bilbo’s got a chill writing style.

@uriahakabrowndog3406 Жыл бұрын

I just figured it was more intense later on just to get the audience interested

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

So you probably know the Hobbit is a kids book with lots of silly adventures. When Tolkien started LOTR he thought we was writing a sequel, and so wrote it as a kids book too. The hobbits have lots of fun, silly, childish adventures at first before getting to Bree. Then Tolkien realized he was writing something more serious and the mood changes... a lot! Peter Jackson just skipped all of the kid stuff and jumped straight from Hobbiton to Bree. Probably a good move, honestly.

@sameehkins5957 Жыл бұрын

@@thegreyhavens167 i wouldnt call Barrow Wights "kids stuff". The Barrow Wights section in the books is straight up horror. In fact, now that im thinking about it, it doesnt make sense for Bilbo to have written the first part of fellowship. First half of fellowship has Old Forest, Old Man Willow, Tom Bombadil, Barrow Wights. All things that bilbo didnt experience, so why would he write it? At best Bilbo wrote 2 chapters of the fellowship and thats it.

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Sameeh, yeah calling it kids stuff might be a bit off. Good call. I think the events are terrifying/etc... but the way Bilbo writes it is playful and fun.... just like the hobbit. Also, in the book Bilbo specifically says the four hobbits told him everything that happened and he was going to write the book. So at least some of this did happen. Of course real life: Tolkien originally wrote LOTR as a kid book, a sequel to his best selling hobbit. Around Bree he got stuck, and then turned it into a serious fantasy work instead. But real-life reasons aren't fun!!! 🙃🙃

@induslkj7322 9 ай бұрын

The fact that tolekin did that subtle thing is amazing.

@Randy.Bobandy Ай бұрын

I mean… the plot just gets darker at that point anyway. It sets you up with all the nice stuff so you’ll care when it gets destroyed in the not nice parts.

@riverdantes5281 5 ай бұрын

Wait. There are some seriously intense scenes involving Tom Bombadil before they reached the elves.

@thegreyhavens167 5 ай бұрын

That's true, they are intense. But it's like the Hobbit... a story written for little kids.... The danger is never quite portrayed as "real" or dark. Tolkien intended LOTR to be another kids book like the Hobbit, but around Bree or Rivendell it just evolved into a very adult read. Instead of rewriting the beginning, he just decided to keep the first chapters as a kids book and say Bilbo wrote it😅

@candyhochstmann Ай бұрын

so bilbo writes the part where everything happens between the birthday party and the arrival at rivendal, even he was not there and dosent know whats happen? yeah makes totally sence

@thegreyhavens167 Ай бұрын

Yeah - it's all in the main story. Just gotta read the Rivendell chapters again. Tolkien was very specific in how he wrote it and directly tells us this many, many times 😅 * In Rivendell (the first time) we read that the Hobbits spent weeks in Bilbo's room telling him everything that happened and Bilbo took copious notes. And Bilbo straight up tells them he is going to write whole chapters in his book about it all. * When they leave Rivendell basically the last thing Bilbo says to them is: try to keep a journal and lots of notes so I can write the story of your next adventures.... and bring back any poems or songs you hear to. -- He then says: I will finish writing your first adventures and be ready to write your next ones when you get back. * When they get back to Rivendell (after defeating Sauron), they find he had written some, but just got too old. On the last day when they leave to go back to the Shire, Bilbo asks them to take all his notes and his book and finish it for him. There you go. Let me know if you need the exact references and I can find them. Always happy to help out! :)

@daveOnYouTube 2 ай бұрын

First half was happy because Bilbo was smoking some hobbit's weed. The second half was intense because Frodo spent time getting stabbed.

@nope3249 Жыл бұрын

One was a kids book And one wasn’t they’re almost 20 years apart. I don’t even think he had a Lotta rings in mind before he wrote the hobbit.

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Agreed. I read the Hobbit all throughout my childhood... but never LOTR till college. Honestly, it's pretty meta than Tolkien even felt it necessary to create an in-universe explanation.

@raphaelargus2984 5 ай бұрын

This is a really great insight. Also, the author who translated Bilbo and Frodo12,000 years later was doing it before and after WW2.

@suprhomre 8 ай бұрын

Don't forget the last part of the trilogy was written by Sam. Therefore it was filled with hope.

@scientistmilorad9735 6 ай бұрын

Damn Tolkein is a real genius

@weakrob 11 ай бұрын

Stop 😭 i just realized I'm getting all these videos because that sound in the beggining of every one of these videos is Leveling Up in Skyrim which im binging rn lmao.

@randompaper9515 Ай бұрын

It's the classic literary journey. Innocence to experience. The tone starts to shift after the first chapter. Interesting theory though.

@thegreyhavens167 Ай бұрын

Agreed. Great comment btw. In this particular example, the IRL answer is Tolkien started writing LOTR as a sequel to the Hobbit ... as a children's book. Around Bree or so he stopped writing for years, and then came back to it. But then he found himself writing an epic journey tale, and def not oriented for kids anymore. So what to do? Rewrite the first chapters in this new style? Nope! He just invented the idea of Bilbo writing the first part in his fun style, and Frodo the rest. ¯⁠\⁠(⁠°⁠_⁠o⁠)⁠/⁠¯😅

@shaunsmith7487 9 ай бұрын

I love your videos man ❤ keep up the great work

@somewhatreallycoolguy7439 4 ай бұрын

is that the skyrim quest sound?

@thegreyhavens167 4 ай бұрын

Aww yeah! (⁠ノ⁠^⁠_⁠^⁠)⁠ノ. Nice catch. Something tells me we both spend waaay too much time playing Skyrim. : )

@johowell4974 6 ай бұрын

just shows how genius tolkien was to incorporate that tbh

@KillianHeckman-uz1to 6 ай бұрын

After the events on Mt. Doom the writing style shifts as well. It becomes less descriptive and more dialogue between characters.

@strydyrhellzrydyr1345 5 ай бұрын

Mighty bold claim... Id like a full video of you explaining this further please... Id be very interested. Still. I never felt any kind of tone change... And have read it more than half a dozen times. So far

@martinstent5339 9 ай бұрын

Speaking as one of the hobbits who was actually there at that time, I can verify this. Bilbo liked to brag that he wrote everything, but he was getting a bit senile towards the end, so I would discount that.

@melissagodwin1594 10 ай бұрын

Dang. I never even thought about that.

@jakenolt8561 Ай бұрын

Tolkien wrote the 'Hobbit' for children. He wrote 'LOTR' for adults. So he made a transition from the filksy pastoral Hobbit-like introductory portion of 'LOTR,' to the rough and tough middle and end of 'LOTR.'

@kanikmesh8870 Жыл бұрын

Bro.. i read hobbit in a day.. struggled to even want to read fellowship after 100 pages.. here i am trying to want to try reading it again.. and this just gave me hope.

@ArtByKarenEHaley 6 ай бұрын

Audio book has made Fellowship more palatable

@Nokyyyyy 10 ай бұрын

Bilbo happily writing a story about him getting a ring supposed to corrupt his very soul (he doesn't care enough for it to work properly)

@DieLuftwaffel 6 күн бұрын

Tolkien was apparently an epic author in more ways than one!

@gerinwilde1587 11 ай бұрын

The real reason I'd that Tolkies thought it was a Hobbit sequel until he realized it was a silmarillian sequel.

@thegreyhavens167 11 ай бұрын

True! Leave it to Tolkien to feel he has to write his own self into the universe to explain his maturation as a person and author 🤷‍♂️🤣

@Canuovea 11 ай бұрын

Also possible is that Frodo, being very familiar with Bilbo's style, began in that familiar tone... and then when things went horribly wrong, he couldn't maintain it, or simply grew into writing with his own voice.

@clwho4652 11 ай бұрын

The fist half is about the reguler people, the people just trying to live good happy lives as well as the anciand magic and beauty of Middle Earth (that is why Tom Bombidal is in the book). In the counsel the true threat to this world is reviled. Froto goes on his journey to protect the Shire, to protect the people trying to live good happy lives.

@szymonbober2280 7 ай бұрын

i actually liked the ending showing that Frodo was ending the story...

@MarkyAG98 Ай бұрын

Yo I never realy thought of it like that thanks man

@cardenova Ай бұрын

I did not know this! And yes I felt the shift dramatically lol

@gavinl4388 Ай бұрын

It’s not true 😂

@chamzilla8661 5 ай бұрын

To be fair, he did kill a lot of spiders

@mrs.manrique7411 8 ай бұрын

Yeah, I fully believe Bilbo wrote most of the story leading up to and during the great council, and then Frodo spent years finishing as much of his story as possible, and then Sam put his finishing touches on it. I believe there are some points early on that would have been added by Sam himself. Tolkien’s deft writing with regards to who would have originally told the story is wonderful!

@thegreyhavens167 8 ай бұрын

I agree, Tolkien's subtle work here is legendary and wonderful. I always felt that's why the Nazgul, in particular, are not too scary until later in the story. Bilbo never met them, so to his style of storytelling it's totally fun for a Farmer Maggot to snap their fingers at the Witch King and the Nazgul run away scared 🤣🤣🤣 I love it!!! (great comment btw, well said!)

@jimakomanf1065 24 күн бұрын

The tonal shift is because Frodo embarks on his journey leaving the Shire. The Shire is his home a place of peace. After he leaves, he sees how dark middle earth really is

@WestIndianAK 8 ай бұрын

I thought it was just because the first half focuses on the hobbit characters in their natural habitat, the Shire, and hobbits are pretty salt-of-the-earth types for the most part-whereas the second half brings in and focuses more on the hoity-toity Wizards and Men and Elves and what not 🤔

@thegreyhavens167 8 ай бұрын

Yep - I do think you are in to something there. IRL that's closer to the truth, but Tolkien wanted an in-universe answer as well, so he invented the two author thing. 🤷

@kyleflynn1730 11 ай бұрын

Wow I have actually read The Lord of the rings by watch to Lord of the rings and I didn't know that That's some dedication too the details

@BuckFlicks Ай бұрын

Good content.

@Starbat88 8 күн бұрын

Interesting. So JRR Tolkien was writing Bilbo writing the first half, and then he was writing Frodo writing the second half...

@Hi_Im_Akward Ай бұрын

The books have several different authors. Bilbo being the main one from Hobbit to early fellowship, and then Frodo for most of the rest of the books. But the entire Hobbit party fills in blanks and if I remember correctly was added to by other party members. Books were also eventually added to by subsequent generations of Arogons lineage. Tolkin wrote LOTR more so as context to the wider legend that he created. He was very much interested in what happened before these events and is why the Simirillion exists. He also did some writing for after, but he didn't get far. Reasons not fully known but it seems he was uninspired, was looking more like a mystery novel than epic fantasy. Interesting guy, he was thinking about the wider ledge more often than not.

@gavinl4388 Ай бұрын

No no and no

@jimbeaux89 8 ай бұрын

That’s seriously so cool

@rickythe2nd63 Ай бұрын

WOW!!! Good to know!

@terrylong8894 Ай бұрын

The possible tonal shift in Fellowship of the Ring may also be because Christopher Tolkien may have been more directly involved in the wring of Lord of the Rings than we are aware of.

@bigbadseed7665 11 ай бұрын

Also Tolkien didn't really know where the story was going until Rivendell.

@CultofThings Ай бұрын

That makes sense, I always wondered this.

@gavinl4388 Ай бұрын

It’s either a joke or you are both stupid

@FierceDIO 2 ай бұрын

Isn't it because LotR was written as a 6 books story but Tolkien had to rearrange it into 3 because of publisher interference?

@thegreyhavens167 2 ай бұрын

Your totally on the right track here for the IRL reason, but not 100% there 😅. Here is the real story: * The Hobbit is a kids book * Tolkien started writing a sequel kids book called LOTR - totally for kids - another fun silly adventure! * Around Bree or so, he stopped writing for many years (and went to war for several of those years) * When he came back and started writing again, he found he started writing an Epic high fantasy - def not for kids So that's why the tone changed. He thought about rewriting the beginning to match, but he liked it too much. So he came up with the in-universe idea of switching authors from BB to Frodo to explain it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@ohifonlyx33 7 ай бұрын

I know the red book passed from Bilbo to Frodo to Sam and on even to Rosie... but I never paid much mind to any tonal shift, save that things get darker as the story progresses.

@L2p2 19 күн бұрын

if true this mean JRR tolkien wore a Frodo hat and Bilbo hat while writing the book. Hmm what incredible consistency and fidelity

@BobBlumenfeld 27 күн бұрын

Let's not forget that neither Bilbo nor Frodo really wrote those books; JRR Tolkien wrote them and Peter Jackson masterfully brought them to the screen. The tonal shift is mainly director Jackson's counterpointing the bucolic peacefulness of The Shire with the wild world outside it, the same way he did in the closing scenes after the hobbits return to the Shire.

@kamehameharem 10 ай бұрын

In actuality it's because the lord of the rings is split into 6 different books, but Tolkiens publisher didn't want that so they bundle books 1 and 2 in fellowship, books 3 and 4 in two towers and 5 and 6 in return of the king. These books were never meant to be paired together, but instead be their own separate books

@abdulraffay3861 Жыл бұрын

Good stuff man

@thegreyhavens167 Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate the positive vibes! 🙂

@papamoon12392 11 ай бұрын

Is that the Skyrim quest notification sound? Lmao

@thegreyhavens167 11 ай бұрын

How did you recognize that? Yep - you got me! 😅 Well played good sir, well played.

@daimongarcia7204 6 ай бұрын

IT SOUNDED SO FAMILIAR I WAS LOOKING THROUGH THE COMMENTS FOR THIS

@the-chillian 7 ай бұрын

The in-universe explanation was concocted after the fact. The real answer is that Tolkien was asked for a Hobbit sequel and spent a few years noodling around until he happened on a plot, writing multiple versions of the opening chapters, all in the same tone as The Hobbit since that's what he was going for. When he finally found a plot it developed into something much darker, but he never rewrote the early chapters to match. I think we can all be grateful that the main character's name ended up as Frodo rather than the original Bingo Bolger-Baggins.

@thegreyhavens167 7 ай бұрын

Yeah, Bingo Bolger Baggins? Crazy! Totally agree that this is the IRL answer. Leave it to Tolkien to feel he had to create an in-universe one to 😅. What surprises me the most, though, it about 50% of readers comment that they didn't notice a change in tone at all 🤷

@the-chillian 7 ай бұрын

@@thegreyhavens167 It got better than that. When Frodo hands the Red Book over to Sam, the narrator tells us that Chapter 80 was unfinished. If you add up all the chapters from TH through LotR you find that the 80th is "The Scouring of the Shire". Tolkien actually took the trouble to count all the chapters and make them match. And how on Earth can someone not notice a change in tone when it goes from sapient foxes to tentacled monstrosities?

@thegreyhavens167 7 ай бұрын

I know.... it's crazy people don't see the tonal shift 🤣🤣🤣 In FOTR the Witch King get's told off by Farmer Maggot and runs away scared 🤣, while in ROTK.... well.... Witchy is a baller!

@MrDDiRusso 11 ай бұрын

I hadn't noticed any tonal shift in the story.

@oaktreeholler 10 ай бұрын

I need to reread the books now but with this is in mind.

@violinphelan 9 ай бұрын

LOTR was originally written as 6 books that would be released together. The publishers didn’t like this idea and Tolkien had to compromise and combine two and two books together to make a trilogy. The fellowship of the ring is actually two different books, that might be why the tone changes.

@Nfk2224 25 күн бұрын

What are you talking about bilbo would never lie in his book, he is the greatest burglar known to man

@thegreyhavens167 22 күн бұрын

Awww yeah! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Best Comment of the Day!!! 🤣🤣🤣 If I remember it correctly, Bilbo did say he single handily beat an army of giant spiders while epically trash talking and jumping through the branches of the trees like an anime ninja. BILBO IS A ROCK STAR!!!!!!

@stefantomas Ай бұрын

Bilbo only wrote There and Back Again, which is about his own adventure with the Dwarves. He did not write about Frodo's and Fellowship's adventures, so I call bullshit on this.

@thegreyhavens167 Ай бұрын

Polite challenge to you friend, but reread the chapters in Rivendell (both before and after the quest). It's all there in plain text, Bilbo wrote the story. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ When they arrive in Rivendell, Bilbo is impressed with their journey and says he wants all the details so he can write whole chapters about it in his red book. They then spend months meeting with Bilbo telling him everything that happens. The morning before they leave Rivendell, he tells them he will get it all written, but if they can keep a journal or something so they can tell him the rest of the story for him to write. When they return to Rivendell, though, they find BB is getting old and the stories are only partially written. In the last day, BB gives them all his notes and asks Frodo to finish writing it all. IRL.... Tolkien began by writing a sequel to the Hobbit, aka a children's book. Around Bree or so he stopped writing for years, and when came back to it realized he was now writing an Epic instead. His writing style had changed. It bothered himself so much that he decided to invent this in-universe idea that BB transitioned to Frodo. There you go. What do you think 🤔😅

@gavinl4388 Ай бұрын

@@thegreyhavens167you can have your head cannon but LOTR does have cannon and this is not true. Have fun with your imagination, but don’t lie to people about it

@gavinl4388 Ай бұрын

@@thegreyhavens167 The Lord of the Rings has a very specific framework creating an unusual point of view. It is presented to us as if Tolkien found an ancient text, The Red Book of Westmarch, written by Frodo and completed by Sam. In this view, The Silmarillion was a prior book, translations from the Elvish by Bilbo, and The Hobbit was an autobiographical account of Bilbo’s own journey, sixty years before Frodo’s quest. Tolkien wrote letters that clarifies this

@a.w.4708 11 ай бұрын

The other thing is Tolkien wrote everything to the grave of Balin before WWII and everything else after WWII if I recall correctly. This could have an influence on his writing as well.

@wookieninja8794 9 ай бұрын

I don't think it was two different writers. Bilbo wrote A Hobbit's Journey which is his story (encompasses The Hobbit) Frodo in turn writes the Fellowship and on possibly including it as it involves the Ring and he felt it should be included to bring Bilbo's story to an end. I think as I'm sure others would agree that the tonal shift is Tolkien's way of showing the maturing of the group and the seriousness of the task they face. When they start in the shire they know there is danger but they've yet to face it so they are happy go lucky. Once the Nazgul show themselves though it hits them like a sack of bricks and they understand the danger they face. As a military veteran I can understand this. Most days there's no danger and your life is normal and happy but when those siren's go off.....complete change. I think that's what the tonal change was.