This is also a major factor, you are right. I didn't really want to get into criticizing the whole Old World itself. The fact that only 2 armies were made available at release, and that even these were quickly unavailable, means that the wider community is stuck waiting. Either waiting a little restocks of these 2 armies, or waiting a long time for each of the next armies on the way, which may themselves have their own stocking issues. This is fine for people who already have armies and miniatures to play Old World, but new people will be left without any recourse but to wait... or try other companies! I am sure all the rank and flank suppliers out there, from Kings of War to A Song of Ice and Fire and various 3D print ranges, will be doing very well this year.

GW has had logistical (and pricing) problems for years because they insist on running a limited manufacturer operation out of England - despite over half of their market being situated in North America. Warhammer IPs are the most popular they've every been and GW is juggling more balls than ever, yet they still refuse to increase their manufacturing capabilities. Worse still, there's been a worrying trend of GW attempting to push more and more business towards their online store and away from third-party retailers. At lot of people buy all their stuff from their LGS and GW appears increasingly to want a bigger and bigger slice of their pie.

@@spnked9516 I would remind people here of something that Elon Musk as iterated many times. Now you might not like the guy for his personal or political opinions but let's leave that aside for a moment. For many years now in multiple of his businesses the man has been involved in a lot of physical products. One thing he allways says is the hardest part of every one of his businesses is moving beyond a prototype and getting regular production going. We might be underestimating how hard it is for GW to get more production off the ground seeing as how many IP's they handle. Maybe getting more factories and Printers going is just too risky. Maybe it puts you 2 unpopular release cycles away from bankrupcy.

I mean so far you can't even buy core units outside of the starter boxes. Like all the people I see playing TOW either had old armies or printed new ones and pirated the rules, because they can't even get a hand on those.

I have this salt, too. I did not expect it to end like that after all the hype

Real pros stopped playing WHF at the beginning of 8th edition because the game was just a stupid bullshit show then already. 😛

It's not even just the end times, the way they treat their customers was disgusting and not only that they were shocking to deal with if you were small games shop owner during 8th edition. The salt still flows through me! Though admittedly after the dire position they were in during AoS1 they changed massively, they had to because the AoS1 release has to go down as one of the most embarrasing releases in all of Wargaming History. The interaction they have with the community now is much improved, they even send out lots of free stuff to social media people (yes free marketing for them but it's still good for the community too)

@@lordy6666 it's a very different GW for sure, so let's hope they can make TOW work, and get rank and flank out to all the uninformed 😂 and oh yeah... That first AoS without points... What? Why???

@@lordy6666In my opinion there is nothing good in sending free stuff to social media people because these social media people way too often just celebrate blindly what GW sends them. They are nothing but influencers making people buy GWs shit. Whenever you know that some blog, channel etc. owner is getting promoted with stuff from GW you should always take care of what they try tell/sell you. Nothing good in here for the community, in my opinion.

The nostalgia for Warhammer Fantasy plus the timely reminder of GW's ineptitude drove me directly TO Kings of War!

Yeah that's how I got to KoW, after a few years trying to make 40K fun for me.

KoW also has the much better and balanced set of rules what ToW, better to say GW, is not even aiming for.

If there is one critique of Kings of War is that there are too many factions to choose from! As always the best advice is to pick an army that aesthetically speaks to you, because painting all those minis will need that enthusiasm. For me this was Forces of the Abyss (I love those maniacal demonic infantry) and Goblins (also maniacal grinning infantry... clearly I have a thing). Welcome to the Kings of War community!

Wow, eloquent even! Thank you good sir.

AoS is reasonably popular around Victoria, with certain clubs and shops heavily invested. And at CanCon AoS remains a major event. I tried for a little but it's not the way I want to play fantasy. If I want skirmish I'll play 40k. As for conquest, I did think of trying some models for proxy. There's very beautiful models in their range, but the cost really is prohibitive

Exactly right. We all benefit. A Song of Ice and Fire at least had the intellectual property of a Game of Thrones to help get it some exposure, but the overall gameplay element of having GW back in rank and flank will help. Even if someone wants Lannister-style Empire army, they will fine ASOIAF minis better than old Empire models.

It was whispered around the place back in 2010 like this secret source of contraband. Funnily enough, now I'm finally painting those really old Orcs, they're actually pretty cool models - the Greatax I am particularly fond of.

It's added energy to the genre of wargaming, a big advert that this is a valid style to the general GW-only masses :p

All two of them?

Yeah that rankles me, too. I'll use my old Orcs but I won't buy more of the exact same old Orcs 🫠

I'm very happy about the old figs coming back, don't have to pay sky high prices. I need more gw orcs and Incan get them now.

Also true, but the exposure if these historical systems to the average new gamer is low.

Gentleman and a scholar. I'm just happy people are playing rank and flank!

Well, to be honest, KoW has the much better and balanced set of rules what ToW, better to say GW, is not even aiming for.

A perfect example of the effect! And you chose wisely, Halflings have beautiful models and so many playstyles.

False. If that was the case then why did they wait 8 years after TW: Warhammer being released to bring out ToW? The only reason why GW is getting back into it is because they have seen how successful KoW has been and they want a slice of the pie that they threw away so long ago. GW doesn't care about it's customer base, all it cares about is it's bottom line for share holders and we can see that straight up with them flogging ancient miniatures at today's prices couple that with the rules basically just being 6th edition with some 8th edition thrown into it. Just pure laziness from GW to make a quick buck. I wouldn't be surprised if ToW only has a 4 year cycle and it will be gone.

I did miss it, but I am also still not sure as to its effect. Nearly all the Total War: Warhammer players I know personally also used to play actual Warhammer, so that's not so much gaining new players, but rather retaining old ones. That said, there must be video gamers in the Total War space that might pick up table top gaming, and I hope they do!

​@@CaffeinatedWarlordI've seen a number of people over the years appear on fanatics saying something to the effect of "hi, new player here, I'm a big fan of total war warhammer and wanted to try the tabletop game, but apparently it doesn't exist anymore?! But then I came across kings of war and it looks really interesting" etc, the number of kings players gained probably wasn't huge but it wasn't nothing

@@Jmackdun you're right, it's not nothing, but I think GW returning to rank and flank will have a much bigger effect than Creative Assembly putting out Warhammer games. Both are good for the overall hobby, though. It's all more exposure :)

Hard to fit in a single afternoon or evening, and not end too late. I wonder if events for TOW will be akin to 40K events I once went to, where the round was 2 hours but games would always end turn 3-4 as you would time out together. Quite unsatisfying.

Absolutely. Units in Kings of War are at set sizes - troops, regiments, hordes and legions. These have specific dimensions depending on unit type - infantry, cavalry, chariot. So people get a big base at the right dimensions and then put their minis on it. Can put enough to completely cover it like a movement tray, or a few less and make a nice diorama (see my goblins!). That way it doesn't really matter what individual base size is. Except the Arachnarock Spider, that's massive

ah very nice, because i thought about trying out KoW additionally to ToW. All i need is the current KoW Rulebook and my ToW Army i guess. The Empire of Dust Model range looks very nice but i think all my Khemri models could easily cover the Empire of Dust unit types. @@CaffeinatedWarlord

Many people are used to Tomb Kings as Empire of Dust. Skeletons = skeletons, tomb guard = revenants, ushabti = enslaved guardians, casket of souls = soul snare. Some models that have less direct comparison but are very useful units are the Monolith and the Idol of Shobik. Can see the units on the mantic website and either get them or think of what you might use in their stead.

There are no lines or unstoppable dragons in Kings of War, that's for sure!

Nostalgia is all that will make me try, but KoW for me, too. Melbourne, Australia has a similar issue, what few stores exist with tables just have 40K being played (as well as Magic and Pokemon, of course). Otherwise there's plenty of GW stores, but they don't actually host games anymore beyond introduction games.

Definitely! It's where the whole genre started, but as far as awareness in the social consciousness, it's Warhammer Fantasy that gets the exposure. I never knew about historical wargaming in Australia until I was playing Warhammer Fantasy and heard about Warhammer Ancients. Even then, I didn't actually know anyone playing it. So while Fantasy isn't the be all and end all, it's certainly the flagship

@@CaffeinatedWarlord That's fair. I certainly heard about Warhammer Fantasy before I heard about Kings of War, and that was when warhammer fantasy was still dead.

Comments from Ronnie Renton seem to indicate that there are at least some more sales, and comments below in this video show that people are looking at the Mantic range for proxies - just like I did 14 years ago! Even 0.5% of TOW players looking for alternative models is a massive boost in sales, because the market is just that big.

I truly love the Warhammer setting, but for so many reasons now it's just not something I can get back into on the tabletop. Glad you've found Kings of War! It really is a simpler game, and a lot more fun for it (less bookwork, more gaming!)

Precisely, we should just play what scratches the itch right. Some want the granularity of TOW, and others the stripped back nature of KoW. Now if you apply that definition of ranks and flanks, the majority of historicals would be invalidated 😅 really the rank and flank ideal refers to units being arranged in very specific ways (even TOW can be played with blocks) and that flanks refers to the importance of positioning. It's ultimately why I prefer KoW, TOW and Conquest to 40K and AoS.

Also I like the strict IGOUGO for my battle reports! So easy to capture as my opponent really only needs to ask me about stats occasionally.

All hail the algorithm! Heartily recommend Kings of War minis if you need to fill in your fantasy forces 😜

Precisely. Some people like what they like.

I agree with some of your points, but not the balanced rules. KOW has balance as it has uniformity; you really can't individualize your units, it's close to a game of chess where you buy set pieces w/o much choice on their composition. TOW has less uniformity as it has more choices; you can build your army the way you want, making choices on how to compose each unit. You can make it as big or as small as you want, for the most part. You get balance in the points.

The points are the point of balance but only if they were tested and assessed to be worth what they give, rather than be too cheap or too expensive. In KoW this is much easier to assess across the armies but how can a play tester in TOW know if the great weapon upgrade for a black orc is appropriately costed compared to the additional hand weapon upgrade compared to the shield? In the end the points just help us think it's balanced :P we will play with our models either way

Precisely! I managed to make a lot longer version of this exact sentiment 😅

Definitely feels like we're reaching a tipping point with pricing

@@donotinteract7851 like I said, it's that $100 mark. We're already dangerously close to that right now. The price for a newer box of (usually) 10 baseline infantry for 40k or AoS is around $70 (over $80 if you're a Canadian like me) - that's about $5-$10 way from the danger zone. TOW pricing is an entirely different beast altogether and is extremely hard to pin down. You have the price of things like the necrosphinx - which isn't too bad, tomb guard - who are older models in that danger zone but come in packs of 20, and then you have things like the Ushabti - which have a horrifying $100+ price tag for awful metal models. If I had to guess, I say TOW will be the first to suffer most significantly from GW pricing, as there's already a distinct lack of faith surrounding it on both sides of the equation, but I can't see either 40k or AoS being that far behind it. GW is one or two bad price hikes away from cutting the new blood off to those games, and existing hobbyist will simply cut back or cut off their current levels of investment, leading total collapse in momentum for the brands.

Then there's Australian pricing! I agree, though, we don't want them to go. They bring people in and are the reason hobby stores have any gaming tables at all! Otherwise it will all be card gaming spaces.

I got a 3d printer 2 weeks ago, it was the best thing i've done. Once you have the printer you could print any of the AUD $500+ OLD world box sets for under $100 which includes buying stls and resin. If you decided to print it a second time it would be maybe around a bottle of resin depending on the army, so $40. Not only that most of the 3rd party models are just better then the old models gw decided to reprint. For kings of war this is even more handy as you can print terrain and items for multi-basing on demand. Also movement trays with mmc/pmc.

It's a difficult balance between wanting their own IP and servicing more classic factions. The new Impalers are a bit too big to be executioners 😅

How would you evolve it? Alternating activations?

@@CaffeinatedWarlord that'd be one way. One page rules uses that

It is indeed KoWs rules that get everyone excited to play first and foremost, and so I don't tend to get annoyed at people who ignore the lore. But the lore is getting better despite being ignored! I've never heard of a growing rank and flank community due to SiF, but if that's doing the job that's cool!

That's very interesting! I have not yet met someone who has come from the Total War franchise. Never into miniatures before?

This would be a bold move, but considering the work a lot of people do with their multibases, a drastic change in size would not be popular 😅 that said, I don't think we should jump too quickly as many players will opt for movement tray adaptors rather than rebasing. Who wants to rebase orcs to 30mm anyway?

We can all be more accepting. I like the blend of encouraging people to get Mantic armies with Mantic army hobby prizes, but also prizes for best army regardless of miniature manufacturing. And I think you might be referring to old Groany Snark 😂 he's gone. Now all he can do is maximum 18 damage if you have the luck of the gods on your side

​@@CaffeinatedWarlordnope he's referring to Ronnie the Bastard. It's a joke unit and definitely not for any sort of competitive play.

That's what's different between 10 years ago and now. 3D printing now exists and can match the quality.

It is hard. Only the big games survive in the outback. My hometown in country Victoria has only 40K and AoS, there's not even Old World. Thankfully Melbourne has a decent KoW scene of 40-50 players all up.

Even Adelaide topped out at about 8 players when I was running events pre-COVID. I wish they were out there and gathering for games again.

Most of the smaller cities and the regional areas are completely GW games, which is fair, they're relatively easy to acquire. But maybe with old world taking off you never know! Would be good to have an excuse to go to Adelaide

I'm certainly curious but KoW will be forever my main game.

It's amazing what's available to choose from in any given genre. 20 years ago it was so limited, but now we are all free!

Oooh yeah the Elves. They are really hard to love so I don't blame you. KZfaq channel Hordes of Things painted up a Mantic Elf army and it looked really good, but still not quite that High Elf look. Some good Elves include the Ice Kin Hunters from Northern Alliance, but really the would only work as Shadow Warriors or White Lions.

It is profoundly understocked and also coming out way too slowly. But still people need Tomb Kings and there's a whole array of dry undead at Mantic 💀

@@CaffeinatedWarlord So we show people what there IS (KOW) rather than what there isn't

The conga lines are particularly odd... why let every person in front rank fight regardless of base contact? Caveat, I know this only from second hand info as Australia literally doesn't get The Old World stuff until middle of this month...

@@CaffeinatedWarlord because the rest of the game is equally terribly designed The main linehammer video here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/mdqCqaR1puDKgqM.htmlsi=u_OCTk-mmVYJ23Hr

That is a hilarious video! Subscribed just because of his presenting personality 🤣

Yeah absolutely. KoW/T9A/WAP have the much better and balanced set of rules what ToW, better to say GW, is not even aiming for. ToW is really just a stupid nostalgia dead horse riding thing to sell tons of heroes on big monsters + other single models (like monsters) ah yeah and some stuff that is great being played in lines... A game with so obviously bad rule writing, I do not understand AT ALL why people are freely rebasing their entire armies just for this shit show. Base adapters ok, so to still be able to play all the other RnF games which are simply BETTER just alone because they are much more balanced and do not have such stupid loopholes that allow linehammer for instance. I mean for real, the contradiction here is gigantic! It simply is meant to be a RnF game so with ranked up models in units because rank bonus is, or better to say, should be a thing! The "models that die cannot attack anymore" rule simply contradicts itself by this "all models not even in contact get 1 attack" rule. So there are these 2 rules that simply do not fit together in this ruleset at all and make it absurd. It does not only look silly, it simply is very bad contradicting rule writing that makes rank bonus obsolete while rank bonus in fact should be an important factor. So the core rules themselves simply have a rule that is destroying the whole incentive point of playing an RnF game with BLOCKS of units. I mean... the game somewhat tells you "blocks are the way to go" and then the rules say "ah no, lines beat blocks"... just plain stupid thou and obviously a broken, not at all, thought about rule wormhole/blackhole/asshole thingy!

Well, I don't see it this way. TOW is a much better game with much better models for its mechanics. TOW has two things KOW lacks, choice and interaction. I've played a TON of 6th edition WHFB and a ton of KOW, and I like WHFB/TOW much, much better. The main test is real battles don't work like KOW battles; there are so many weird movements and interactions. It's fun, but it takes way too much suspension of disbelief. You're welcome to dislike TOW, and I hope KOW continues on and grows.

This will always be an issue but even if 0.5%, a tiny fraction, of old world players decide to try other games, that's a huge boon for other games, especially if they would never have reached those people without such a big draw card that Warhammer is

We only have so much time. The streamlined rules of Kings of War mean I can really get into the tactics of the game. I just don't think I have the time for a game that needs the book to be used all the time. The Weaver courts look pretty cool!

^This. Warhammer is less a gateway for wargaming, and more of a silo. If you're willing/able to overcome the barriers to entry GW erects around Warhammer, you end up stuck inside of it.

I can understand this argument, but even a tiny fraction of GW customers looking for something else is a massive boost to every other game. And in Australia, GW is the only (visible) game in town. We don't have many stores where KoW exists or can be played, because all we have are GW stores in most cities.

@@CaffeinatedWarlord I get that and it's not just Australia. I currently live in the UK and you can't get KoW in any of the hobby shops in Exeter, which is after all a capital of a county. So KoW doesn't really have that big of a distribution presence even in its homecountry. I just doubt TOW will inspire consumers and stores to look towards other games of that type in a significant manner.

I mean you're absolutely right, but then I wouldn't have had the fun of putting together this meme :D

@@CaffeinatedWarlord An absolute fair point.

I understand your point of view, but for the majority of new customers in the last two decades, it doesn't really matter that historicals were doing their thing because these new customers wouldn't know. They walk into a GW and find out about miniature wargaming. Pre-2015, this would at least include some Rank and File miniatures with WFB, but after 2015 it was gone. No new people would be cognizant of such gaming modes. Skirmish reigned supreme, with only the older customers having the memory or want of Rank and File. Also I say rank and flank, like many, because it rhymes.

Have u checked out their recent releases? Night and day compared to their dwarfs and elves for example.

This was definitely a valid criticism 5 years ago, but the most recent sculpts rival modern GW, and they surpass old GW. Mantic Goblin Rabble, by way of example, are far superior to GW Goblins. If you're lacking good sculpts from Mantic, I would suggest inspecting the Ogre, Nightstalker and Twilight Kin ranges, as these are almost exclusively newer sculpts made in via Archon Studios, masters of HIPS plastic.

Dem fightin' words! Old Mantic you'd be considered well within your rights to say but new Mantic (2019 to now) has put out some incredible sculpts. Halflings, Nightstalkers, Twilight Kin, Northern Alliance and Ogres are all good examples.