Why Writers Don't Matter

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Savage Books

Savage Books

5 жыл бұрын

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Do writers get to tell us what we should and shouldn't believe about fiction? Come explore the answers!
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What Does Anybody Know About Anything by Chris Zabriskie is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (creativecommons.org/licenses/...)
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Sources and Credits:
Vox- Why Cartoons Wear Gloves
• Why cartoon characters...
Ponysmasher- The Problem Solving of Filmmaking
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mentalfloss.com/article/30937/...
Game Of Thrones Intro-
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Пікірлер: 374
@marcoaugustoferreira5997
@marcoaugustoferreira5997 5 жыл бұрын
I recently gave my horror novel to an illustrator. When he finished it, he loved it. He gave me such a well-formed interpretation that I was surprised. I even joked with my mom about it and literally said, "It seems he understood my book better than me." Then, I saw your video. Holy shit. Subscribed.
@mariokarter13
@mariokarter13 5 жыл бұрын
It's like the iceberg metaphor, it was there the whole time, you just weren't conscious of it.
@TheGeorgeD13
@TheGeorgeD13 5 жыл бұрын
@@mariokarter13 Exactly. When my brother read a story I wrote, he pointed out how a relationship between a mother and her son is pretty much exactly the same as mine was with my mom. But I wasn't even conscious of this until he pointed it out. Stuff like that has happened pretty often where I've drawn from my own life WAY MORE than I have ever realized.
@squidrose
@squidrose 4 жыл бұрын
Dude. Plug your novel I’d love to see it.
@marcoaugustoferreira5997
@marcoaugustoferreira5997 4 жыл бұрын
@@squidrose Thanks, but it's in spanish for the moment; translation will take a while. In the meantime, I've worked on a horror-drama short film about a paraguayan country legend. You can watch it here with english subtitles: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ft9khr2X2d7YaGw.html
@SRVaintme
@SRVaintme 4 жыл бұрын
Yo hablo español un poquito. ¿Usted podria mostrarme adonde puedo comprarlo?
@brianlbeck
@brianlbeck 5 жыл бұрын
Reminds me of the Bojack quote from Free Churro: In all the shots of the horse, you can see a paper coffee cup on the kitchen counter, but in the shots of Ethan, the coffee cup's missing. Was that because the show was making a statement about the fluctuant subjectivity of memory and how even two people can experience the same moment in entirely different ways? And I didn't have the heart to be, like, "No, man, some crew guy just left their coffee cup in the shot. " So instead, I was like "Yeah."
@bluebutterfly5062
@bluebutterfly5062 5 жыл бұрын
This is what i thought of too. I thought he would mention it in the vid.
@kayvanantwerpen6393
@kayvanantwerpen6393 5 жыл бұрын
Emilia Clarke was on set that day.
@wizardcud
@wizardcud 5 жыл бұрын
Tying this video to the best episode of the best show ever. Nice.
@Mahaveez
@Mahaveez 5 жыл бұрын
Classic Watsonian vs. Doylist consideration there. Sometimes there's a consensus on which way a "healthy-thinking" person should interpret the matter, but oftentimes not.
@MediumDSpeaks
@MediumDSpeaks 3 жыл бұрын
Did you type this from memory?
@ginge641
@ginge641 5 жыл бұрын
"Chernobyl video on the back burner." Joker voice: *Very poor choice of words.*
@svisuals4932
@svisuals4932 4 жыл бұрын
Everybody asks Who is the Writer... *But nobody asked How is the Writer*
@ZHike360
@ZHike360 4 жыл бұрын
or better yet... WHY is the writer?
@DbladeMedic
@DbladeMedic 3 жыл бұрын
@@ZHike360 but WHEN is the writer?
@youtubalt6978
@youtubalt6978 3 жыл бұрын
Ded.
@SrValeriolete
@SrValeriolete 3 жыл бұрын
I guess in this last GoT season people worried about WHERE were the writers
@Idk_bro12340
@Idk_bro12340 2 жыл бұрын
@@DbladeMedic well, but WHAT is the writer ?
@callies8907
@callies8907 5 жыл бұрын
The Game of Thrones example *is* internally valid. We can't forget that the two characters are Tywin and Arya, and that Arya's bringing up Rhaenys and Visenya comes after he implies that Aegon is the one to conquer Westeros. Which is a common statement throughout the story--it's Aegon the Conqueror, not Siblings Targaryen the Conquerors. It's not that Tywin's knowledge of Westerosi history is contradicted, it's that it's cast in a different light; he only knows--or just only cares about--the male side of the story. But we know that Arya has always been interested in powerful female historical figures--she names her direwolf Nymeria, after all, and her similarities to Lyanna Stark are lost on no one. Considering Tywin's role in Cersei's childhood angst (constantly trying to wed her off, for one) and Arya's eventual mercy towards the women of the Freys, these moments indicate their priorities and follow through the narrative. And that's without bringing the books into it, which could give the scene an even deeper grasp of gender, identity, and history.
@JSPagliacci
@JSPagliacci 5 жыл бұрын
Very important point. Also, Tywin is a Macchiavellian g and is difficult to believe when he speaks no matter his audience. I've always felt he knew who she was in the absence of evidence.
@m2coy
@m2coy 5 жыл бұрын
but of course, those are all assumptions
@notaraven
@notaraven 5 жыл бұрын
I personally love those tywin arya scenes. I never really interpreted that much from his lack of knowlege, you can see many accomplished people making similar blunders due to not needing to use said information most of the time. You can also see it as him trying to get to know arya more, i think that he knew she was someone important but was too distracted with the war and how much he enjoyed her as a person that he never put 2 and 2 together. KInd of funny for every reason in the world they should both hate eachother yet in this strange situation they had a strange mentor, kid type friendship. Maybe i am exaggerating it a bit arya still requested him dead to try to save her brother but its fun to think of it as a jab at how the main reason why some people hate eachother was merely because they are standing for different sides.
@RedFloyd469
@RedFloyd469 5 жыл бұрын
@@JSPagliacci If he GENUINELY knew who she was, he would use her to his advantage, possible as a hostage. It's pretty clear that he didn't, but at the very least was wary about her noble heritage.
@vicjames3256
@vicjames3256 5 жыл бұрын
Was just about to write this. Glad I scrolled down. That was the sense I got from the scene as well, and proves to display internal validity for both Arya and Tywin. Still enjoyed the video.
@nononono3421
@nononono3421 5 жыл бұрын
Kubrick never really liked explaining anything about his stories, not because he was hiding some secret, but because he felt art speaks for itself.
@alanpennie8013
@alanpennie8013 4 жыл бұрын
Authors themselves tend to subscribe to Death of the Author theory when asked to interpret their own texts. And rightly so, I think.
@Alina_Schmidt
@Alina_Schmidt 2 жыл бұрын
Why not? If you understand the concept you know that nobody wishes you to be dead 😉
@ImTopin
@ImTopin 5 жыл бұрын
The one thing I really wanted when I started writing my first full-fledged novel was that audiences would take an interpretation about it; being able to point out what it says about itself or about me where I haven't been able to. I remember when I presented the pitch for the story to my sister, she said it sounded like a self-reflection type of story, and I really like that she phrased it as such, because I saw that as reason enough to write out the story with the sole intent that it'd be dissected as a way of giving me others' explanation of me and my way of thinking. I write so that others can tell me about myself in ways I can't figure out.
@ChristianAuditore14
@ChristianAuditore14 5 жыл бұрын
Writers write things subconsciously and forget things...
@galaxylucia1898
@galaxylucia1898 4 жыл бұрын
That may be true, but I think a *good* writer will see it in the subsequent rewrites and find a way to use it to improve the storytelling through various literary devices like symbolism.
@carso1500
@carso1500 4 жыл бұрын
@@galaxylucia1898 or like with most things, by accident
@lanceollyfre1181
@lanceollyfre1181 3 жыл бұрын
That's why I write notes
@cyriswinters5233
@cyriswinters5233 3 жыл бұрын
As someone who wants to be a writer I can say that this is 100% accurate
@Alina_Schmidt
@Alina_Schmidt 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, but that‘s not the point of Barthes theory. The point is that meaning isn‘t just there objectively, but that it is necessary to have audience to interpret for meaning to even come to existence at all. That would still be an issue even if a writer would not subconsciously forget anything.
@jaredabrahamcidfda4840
@jaredabrahamcidfda4840 5 жыл бұрын
Same with the xmen, many believe the uncanny X-men is symbolism for civil rights and that professor x and magneto are supposed to be mlk and malcom x but stan lee himself said that was coincidental
@thalljoben3551
@thalljoben3551 3 жыл бұрын
Literally never seen that
@jaredabrahamcidfda4840
@jaredabrahamcidfda4840 3 жыл бұрын
@@thalljoben3551 seen what
@icarussbungeecord7779
@icarussbungeecord7779 Жыл бұрын
while that is true, later x-men writers like chris claremont were aware of the accidental parallel and leaned into it, making it on purpose instead.
@MrZoora23
@MrZoora23 5 жыл бұрын
I was in a writing class and i had several symbols intended but my classmates and professor all picked out several more that i felt enriched the story even further.
@bluebutterfly5062
@bluebutterfly5062 5 жыл бұрын
I love this topic! It boggles my mind really. I have so much i want to add here but I'm not about to write a novel in the comment section so I'll just say: as always, great vid
@21jd_
@21jd_ 5 жыл бұрын
Ayyyyyy jongdae! Same, I think this topic is really interesting. I was thinking of death of the author while I was watching and I was satisfied when he mentioned it near the end.
@WarmPotato
@WarmPotato 5 жыл бұрын
Jong dae every day Thank you for holding back
@bluebutterfly5062
@bluebutterfly5062 5 жыл бұрын
I thought of death of the author too. I also thought of how humans will look for meaning in anything, like using religion or "destiny" to explain life
@eleanorjones26407
@eleanorjones26407 4 жыл бұрын
honestly though
@WalterLiddy
@WalterLiddy 5 жыл бұрын
This is fairly complicated, and the first video of yours where I have some strong disagreements. For one thing, Heller's comment did not imply that the readers were creating the symbolism. He seems to have said that it was there, but that he didn't recognize it. There's a huge difference between this and the Barthes position. Intent or even recognition is not necessary for the elements of a story to reflect the thinking, values, and subconscious concerns of the writer. His comment could be compared to saying "I didn't notice the stain on my shirt until someone pointed it out." That's not the same as "I didn't notice the stain on my shirt until someone put it there." My own thought, which I expressed on Sandberg's post as well, is that reader/viewer interpretation is not invalidated if it does not accord with the creator's intent. But that's a much broader statement than the Barthes position again. I believe that you can yield rewarding results by applying any number of theories to a work and seeing what gives. One such theory may dismiss the writer's intent altogether, but does not invalidate the rewarding results of then applying a theory that writer intent is all that matters. As such, any theory is equally valid, but you CAN incorrectly apply a theory, coming up with claims of symbolism that are either unsupported or actually contradicted by the material (which is how you get hack interpretations by people who think Kubrick did the moon landing etc.) Finally, saying 'writers don't matter' isn't really what anyone is saying. I guess it's click-baity but it's not on point.
@jonesjohnson6301
@jonesjohnson6301 5 жыл бұрын
To be fair, neither excludes the other. Some stains you might have put there without noticing, since our brains have so much going on and much of that is explicit, not implicit. I often found meaning in what I wrote while editing and not really intending to search for it. And I always get surprised. But ultimately the reader is seeing his own stains, and ignoring certain others.
@Shadowcloak
@Shadowcloak 5 жыл бұрын
"I guess it's click-baity but it's not on point." So, what you're saying is, the intent of the author is irrelevant, and what matters is the way that you interpret what's behind those words? "It's not on point" is an entirely subjective description of what was said. Heller's comments absolutely imply that the reader creates the symbolism. Your analogy doesn't work here because a work of fiction is created purposefully, whereas a stain on the shirt is an accident. A more accurate analogy would be "I didn't notice the thing I smeared on my shirt for artistic effect could be interpreted as a stain." That the observer creates the meaning isn't a characteristic of fiction, it's a characteristic of language. When you see a stain on someone's shirt, you're the one who is interpreting it as a stain. Other people might see something else. You also mention that the results of applying an author-determines-meaning theory are "rewarding," but again, that is an entirely subjective statement. Such results do not have any inherent merit, they are only in the eye of the beholder. I, for one, see no merit at all in them, but who am I to say what holds value to the other? Also, broadly dismissing interpretations makes you look like an asshole, not like an intellectual.
@WalterLiddy
@WalterLiddy 5 жыл бұрын
You're projecting a lot onto what I said. You're also being insulting, which I wasn't, so you may want to reconsider your labeling. I didn't say the intent of the author is irrelevant. I said the title is 'not on point', which is not subjective, as it's supportable given the evidence. That writers don't matter is literally and objectively not the claim being made in the video, nor is it implied in anything contained in the video. Whether meaning has to be backed by authorial intent or not, the story doesn't exist without the writer. To claim the writer doesn't matter is simply an incorrect statement. This notion of absolute subjectivity isn't supportable either. The idea that a stain (at the risk of stretching an analogy, which by nature must be imperfect) can be anything to anyone isn't supportable. If you see a stain and interpret it as a deliberate representation of something meaningful, and you get something out of that, you can enjoy that experience legitimately. But that doesn't make it not a stain, and it doesn't make it illegitimate to regard it as such. Your assertion that I'm wrong about the Heller quote is also unsupported. He doesn't say anything about readers creating meaning. He seems to refer to them discovering something already present. As to your claim that fiction is created purposefully, that surely is the point in contention here. The whole point of the essay is that some elements of a story are not necessarily created purposefully, but exist nonetheless. I also did not dismiss any interpretations. I said that while one's personal interpretation has legitimate value to oneself, that doesn't mean it can't be based on error. Anyway, that's as far as I'm willing to entertain the argument of someone who can't be civil about it.
@mariokarter13
@mariokarter13 5 жыл бұрын
A reading is only as valid as the evidence that supports it. If you create a puzzle and someone discovers an unintended solution while remaining in bounds, that's not a bug it's a feature.
@mascotwithadinosaur9353
@mascotwithadinosaur9353 5 жыл бұрын
@@mariokarter13 "If you create a puzzle and someone discovers an unintended solution while remaining in bounds,that's not a bug,it's a feature." Now that's a nice way of putting it.
@benjamincabrera9912
@benjamincabrera9912 5 жыл бұрын
I've never been so amazed by a simple yet so complex statement as "Writers don't matter" you are savage bro
@VirtueCry
@VirtueCry 5 жыл бұрын
This is just a rephrasing of "Death of the Author", an essay from 1967 that argues that the intent of the creators is unrelated to the creation. "Why Writers Don't Matter" is just a clickbait title, and this whole video is a rip off.
@benjamincabrera9912
@benjamincabrera9912 5 жыл бұрын
@@VirtueCry hey, I don't give a fuck deal with it or shut up
@DitisEmile
@DitisEmile 5 жыл бұрын
@@VirtueCry The video is not a rip-off but another person's take on the same theory.
@VirtueCry
@VirtueCry 5 жыл бұрын
@@benjamincabrera9912 You're a special one, aren't you?
@benjamincabrera9912
@benjamincabrera9912 5 жыл бұрын
@@VirtueCry Big time
@aurumarma5711
@aurumarma5711 5 жыл бұрын
8:45 How did I never notice this. Holy Crap.
@brianlowe904
@brianlowe904 5 жыл бұрын
When it comes down to it I feel like intent is important but also isn’t. I feel like when people tote around phrases like death of the author it’s to confirm that their own theories are just as valid as intended themes or that if they don’t like the themes they can just ignore them. I think it’s wonderful that some unintended themes can come from your story or that improved your story. A little bit of balance is required it needs to be noted what is and isn’t intended and that your interpretation is your own
@travdump209
@travdump209 5 жыл бұрын
What Death of the Author should be used for (in my opinion): subjective interpretations of art that the writer didn't intend, for good or for ill What it shouldn't be used for: completely ignoring the text because you don't like it
@riley8385
@riley8385 5 жыл бұрын
@@travdump209 It's more about authorial intent. Take for instace Tolkien. Did he want to write an allegory for WWII? No. Did he? Yes.
@james501001
@james501001 5 жыл бұрын
@@riley8385 thats not quite true. Allegory always implies deliberate intent.
@riley8385
@riley8385 5 жыл бұрын
@@james501001 True, my statement was a simplification for the sake of not writing a long comment in my phone.
@alberttaco3668
@alberttaco3668 4 жыл бұрын
@@riley8385 Tolkien did not write an allegory for WWII, because who are the Nazi and who are the Alliance in Middle Earth? It should have clear symbolic, but there is not, neither in text nor in sub text. Everything in LOTR is based on Evil Lords (Morgoth then Sauron) vs Good humans. That is Satan (Sauron has litteraly the same back story has Satan, starting has an angel, finish as a demon) who corrupts the soul of weak humans, at best. Not WWII which is a consequence of a much more complex events. lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Sauron lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Maiar lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Orcs People just put their bias on it, but seriously, Elf, troll and Dwarf comes from Norse mythos, and Midgard means litteraly middle earth. That is way too far stretch to see a complex political war (WWII) in a good old medieval epic story. "Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was just a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it is not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became a King and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question: What was Aragorn's Tax Policy??" -- Georges R.R. Martins.
@silly688
@silly688 4 жыл бұрын
This concept, of the audience giving meaning to a work of fiction, is already misused and abused by people, mainly for political reasons.
@thepoormanspoet3312
@thepoormanspoet3312 4 жыл бұрын
I just HAPPENED to stumble upon this video and I'm ssoooo excited that I did. I've been a "fledgling writer" with a "wealth of raw talent" foorrrrr....Idk, six years now, lol? I just kinda stalled between landing an agent and landing a publisher, and I got so bogged down in LEARNING how to write that I actually stopped doing it. Watching a couple of your videos makes me want to pull out and dust off my manuscripts and dive back in. I'm subbing...keep 'em coming.
@starwarsguy123ful
@starwarsguy123ful 5 жыл бұрын
I’ve seen other videos about this same topic but this one is by far the best. The points you made, the research, everything.
@Outrider74
@Outrider74 5 жыл бұрын
Bradbury's statement is spot on: the perceived message gathered from the observer oftentimes tells us more about the observer than the art itself. I find this to be increasingly true with people who claim to extract cultural/politicial issues from films and novels, when the truth is that they are more likely projecting those biases into the work. As an author myself, it sometimes makes me cringe, because people like that cannot follow the advice of C.S. Lewis and simply read a story and enjoy it for its own sake. Addendum: I disagree considerably with Barthes. That sort of thought turns the author into a slave, the audience into tyrants, and opens the door for meaninglessness. If something can mean anything, then it either means nothing, or its meaning is determined by whoever shouts loudest and wields the strongest iron fist. As an example, I've heard things labeled as prejudiced when it was clear that the producer of the work had no prejudicial intention whatsoever. The author, first and foremost, determines what his/her work is, and what it "means," not the audience. That the audience extracts something other than what the author intended is a reflection on the audience, and that's not always a good thing.
@p4alls
@p4alls 5 жыл бұрын
This is difficult for me as the editor, as I hate the Pixar theory with every fibre of my being 😂😂😂😂
@natashaestes154
@natashaestes154 4 жыл бұрын
The Pixar stuff is just a bunch of Easter eggs for fun, not secret codes about them all sharing a universe, so I don't buy that theory either.
@aubrey6220
@aubrey6220 5 жыл бұрын
I cant believe you're not more popular...this is such a genius video!
@chowder5901
@chowder5901 5 жыл бұрын
This is one of the best videos I've seen all year, seriously. This is the best thing I've seen from you so far. Keep it up, man.
@t.h.mcelroy6597
@t.h.mcelroy6597 4 жыл бұрын
12:58, I LOVE this. It's that kind of open perspective that breads the best relationship between a creator and their fans/critics.
@justanothervoice2538
@justanothervoice2538 2 жыл бұрын
9:45: As a lifelong Tolkien geek, you have shaken everything I thought I knew!
@didyouhearthat_SN
@didyouhearthat_SN 4 жыл бұрын
Interesting topic. Thank you!
@zedekai9456
@zedekai9456 5 жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Hope you grow quickly! You deserve it
@GuapoG0tGuap
@GuapoG0tGuap 3 жыл бұрын
That glove questioned FUCKED ME UP when I was kid and sent me spiraling into wondering what aspects of my world I just accepted and never questioned.
@althesilly
@althesilly 5 жыл бұрын
6:40 I am sorry I really don't understand. A character with perfect knowledge is unrealistic because a human with perfect knowledge is unrealistic. Tywin can be mistaken about things, it creates a more interesting and believable character to have people be wrong about things. Characters in a well-crafted story should have the exact level of knowledge that that character should have. A master swordsman should have knowledge about sword stances and patterns, a novice should be unknowledgeable. Also, the Tywin and Ayra scene makes no contraction about the death date of Dalerion the dragon. It is showcasing that Aegon did not conquer alone, and specifically that it was women that Tywin has forgotten. Given my reading of Tywin's character, I would say this is trying to show that while Tywin is indeed knowledgeable about things most have forgotten, he can and will ignore things he finds to be unimportant. In this case the role of women that he seems to have a low opinion of exemplified in Cersei. This comes to a head when usually a very cany person when it comes to manipulating others and getting them to do what he wants, Tywin says the exact wrong thing and gets Tyrion killed. This is more extreme as Tywin has an extremely lower opinion of Tyrion then of women in general or of historical women like Agons sisters, Rhaenys and Visenya. So by my reading, Tywin has High internal validity. So how do we reconcile two diametrically opposed views taken from the same example? Well for one we can say that I am using other facts from the story, is actions towards Tyrion and Cersei. But beyond that, we seem to have two extremely opposite opinions on the internal validity of Tywin. By the ending of your essay, I would guess your argument would have to be "well we can both feel that way." Drawing from that I would have to point out that your argument that Tywin at 7:10 "Tywin has low internal validity." most be instead by your line of reasoning. "Which is why I think Tywin has low internal validity." Your argument line allows, for no certify in media yet you make arguments in the same essay that some things in media are certain. "Tywin has low internal validity." How can this possibly be? It's like your trying to have your cake and eat it too. PS Please forgive any bluntness, I am not trying to offend or impune anything. I am confused and just cant follows the logic of the argument, and frankly that erks me when I cant. And I see that as a failing in myself and my ability to comprehend.
@Richard_Nickerson
@Richard_Nickerson 5 жыл бұрын
Just a small thing: While Tywin is definitely sexist and forgets about women threat-wise, such as Cersei and Olenna... Cersei is genuinely a sociopathic idiot. Tywin put it very well when he said that she was not as clever as she thinks she is. Especially if you read the books. The woman is an idiot who thinks she's a genius, and most of her own power actually resides in Tywin.
@thalljoben3551
@thalljoben3551 3 жыл бұрын
Absolutely love and agree with what you said.
@paxonite-7bd5
@paxonite-7bd5 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for clarifying this burning question i had for years
@shee-nanigans7352
@shee-nanigans7352 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this! I do not think many in the lovers of arts in general understand this concept. That your interpretation of something will always be yours and never the author's choice.
@urahara64360
@urahara64360 5 жыл бұрын
This was a great video. It's given me something to chew on for awhile.
@Merione
@Merione 5 жыл бұрын
I really like the idea that through the comments of your readers you also learn something about your work, and I'd dare to add that you also learn something about yourself, because every writer always puts something of himself in his works, intentionally or not.
@RacingSnails64
@RacingSnails64 4 жыл бұрын
I really agree and disagree with this thesis. On the one hand, a reader finding a deeper symbolism that strengthens the original message is pretty much only good thing. Perhaps you could say the author subconciously had that connection in place but forgot to make it obvious. But then you can have people horribly misconstrue a character and force ideas upon them that were never a part of them and maybe even SHOULDN'T be a part of them. Take situations like JK Rowling and The Legend of Korra confirming characters as gay and such without much real basis for example. What do these "confirmations" truly add to the story? If anything, these details only take away and make the characters shallower and messier. (I'm not saying being gay is a poor thing, it can actually be a humanizing detail. This was just an example.) I guess it's too simple to say "it's good when it's good and bad when it's bad," but these are my feelings. Whatever serves the story's best and purest image I feel is what should be upheld by reader and author alike.
@krisr1544
@krisr1544 4 жыл бұрын
You misunderstand, I think. Authors adding commentary to their story AFTER it's been published is irrelevant. That's the whole idea of "death of the author." Once the work is put out into the world, all that matters is the material already presented, whether some of that material was intentional or not. We're talking about what the text actually presents. So, can readers interpret the text--independent anything Rowling has said--as presenting Dumbledore as gay? That's the real question. If they can, then it's a valid interpretation. And if there is evidence there to support it, whether it adds to a character or takes away from a character, or whether it was intended to be a part of the story . . . all of this is irrelevant because the information is in the text regardless. But an author adding something to the story after the fact is irrelevant to the internal validity of different elements because by it's very nature, something added later is external. At the end of the day, it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing that creative works take on a life of their own outside what the author intends. It's just an inevitability. What would be the alternative? We no longer interpret things? The human mind is too nuanced for that. I hope this helps clarify, I'm not always the best at explaining things.
@Alina_Schmidt
@Alina_Schmidt 2 жыл бұрын
@@krisr1544 I think it was explained well :) @my tits: I understand the concern about „forcing ideas“ somewhere. I just think it‘s a different topic altogether. Weather or not something qualifies as „forced upon“ depends on the internal logic of the story. If some non explicit assumption fits the characters, narrative, worldbuilding, etc. or even fits it best - then it isn‘t forced, regardless of who brought up the assumption. If it contradicts or doesn‘t fit the work, then it would be a forced interpretation - no matter if it was done by the author or an inattentive fan. All that matters is what is observable in the story. Of course it becomes interesting and complicated since lots of works really are ambiguous and thus it is not always clear that something is there or not. But that‘s maybe another issue, too. For Legend of Korra I would argue that it is not exactly claimimg something afterwards: After the Tv series the creators published comics about what the characters do afterwards. And as far as I know it‘s very clear in the comics that Korra and Asami are a couple. So if you count the comics to be part of the story (another medium, but I still think ut makes sence to count them) then Korra and Asami dating IS part of the story, not something „made up afterwards“. For Harry Potter I agree though.
@DrEllert
@DrEllert 5 жыл бұрын
Very interesting, and great video! Recently I also came to the conclusion that I have to push my writings a bit further from my drawer, because of the reasons mentioned here: my stories aren't truely complete without someone (besides me) reading them. The readers are like this invisble yet prominent rib to my style.
@JustinoElArtista
@JustinoElArtista 5 жыл бұрын
9:11 I love that note in the bar
@jess.schwindt
@jess.schwindt 5 жыл бұрын
this is my favorite video you've made so far excellent 10/10
@ElforTheLandstander
@ElforTheLandstander 5 жыл бұрын
Holy crap, this was one of the best videos I've ever watched on the subject of Death of the Author. Loved that quote by Joseph Heller. Meaning or symbolism depends on each individual interpretation, and the best writers are the ones who are open to interpretations other than their own. Great video.
@fz_dracohart1255
@fz_dracohart1255 5 жыл бұрын
That is, until reader's interpretation crosses the boundary and stray away or even go against the author's intent, then author is called out for a symbolism they never want to make in the first place. A bit of balance is needed here.
@megannicole4927
@megannicole4927 4 жыл бұрын
I love this. This is why I became a writer. Stories have the power to reach different people on different levels. I firmly believe that authors should determine for themselves what their story means but not hold too tightly to it and allow their audience to find in their writing what they will.
@SnukieCoffee
@SnukieCoffee 5 жыл бұрын
Great video essay. Entertaining and informational. I love your content. :3
@liampezzano
@liampezzano 5 жыл бұрын
Death of the Author as a concept doesn't apply the way KZfaq Essayists think it does. A lot of essays come up as a defense of people reading their own biases into movies or writing. What they fail to recognize is that art is a form of complex communication. Words are symbols meant to impart an idea to another person. The possibility of words failing to translate from one person to the next does not mean the message did not have intent. Communication can fail, and it can fail because of either party. Especially when people look at scripts and expect them to one to one a finished novel. They aren't equivalent stages of the work! You mention that Darla's speed story wasn't in the script, and was therefore unintentional. However, the "authors" of the final movie are the editors. The Editors made choices of scenes and cuts to create the film. They intentionally chose these shots to form a little arc, even if it wasn't in the script. This is why movies are often "found" (restructured/rewritten) in the Editing room. Every one of those choices is as deliberate as speaking. The intentionality is there, but you are focused on the script, which is not the same as a novel. The novel is imbued with this intentionality, but the script is an early draft, where the intention can and will almost every time, change. Barths was reacting to Structuralist critics in France when he wrote his papers. This was an exercise in nihilism. PostModern thought is beyond this. Critique of art is centered as a collage of otherwise shattered experiences. Just because we see separate things, does not negate the original intent.
@Hooz97
@Hooz97 5 жыл бұрын
Liam Pezzano i like your comment, so much so that- I would like to ask you for some book recommendations please if you got anything you want to share
@liampezzano
@liampezzano 5 жыл бұрын
@@Hooz97 You are looking for readings from Derrida, Foucault, and Judith Butler. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism Most of Barthes work can be classified as French Structuralism, which challenged the structure of Language as a vehicle for ideas. His, and the work of others, Post-Structuralism is the heir to these ideas. We are living in a Post Modern Era of criticism right now, two philosophies ahead of Barthes Structuralism. This really just means that we have long moved on from "Death of the Author" past what I would call "Death of the Critic". Of course, that would be bad for Film Critics to talk about.
@rauldjvp3053
@rauldjvp3053 5 жыл бұрын
Death of the Author does not reject intent, only authority over a text
@ShootMeMovieReviews
@ShootMeMovieReviews 5 жыл бұрын
Good point.
@liampezzano
@liampezzano 5 жыл бұрын
@@rauldjvp3053 It does reject intent, since the Intentionality is derived from their Authority over what does and does not constitute text. Giving them separate names doesn't separate them. Authority and Intention are one in the same in Literary Criticism.
@tomb7088
@tomb7088 5 жыл бұрын
This has a running joke for years. Watch the Rodney Dangerfield movie "Back to School". He plays a very wealthy self made but uneducated man who goes to college with his son, who doesn't think college is worth it. In one part he pays the author of a book to do his report on the author's book. Dangerfield's character fails the report because the professor disagrees with everything Dangerfield submitted. The professor had no idea that the actual author of the book in question did the report, and that was the joke. That the professor didn't understand the book in the same way as the author, but was teaching a class that was dependent on him doing so. I myself have this issue as a self published author. I find I am so concerned about internal consistency that everything else suffers, including the fact that while I have five 200k word books written, I have only been willing to upload one of them so far. The few people that have read them say they are great stories, but I know there is something missing, something that changes a common work into something more substantial. Maybe internal consistency, my pet peeve, is what actually makes a written work better? Perhaps giving the reader a chance to feel like they see things that they believe that only they can see is what makes the work better? It might make the reader feel emotionally involved and as such, more invested in the work. Look at the insane numbers of Game of Thrones videos that twist themselves in knots trying to assign value to every line of dialog, every look, every placement of every prop and every off handed comment made by anyone that might be related to the production. And even after all that, the writers train-wrecked the last season to go chase more money doing something else. I will send you an e-mail regarding my books and perhaps we can do business.
@gwell66v2AnimeReviews
@gwell66v2AnimeReviews 4 жыл бұрын
Release one and see how people react. Their insight may help you to improve the others.
@Richard_Nickerson
@Richard_Nickerson 5 жыл бұрын
6:46 I've always assumed Tywin was either A. Using a bit of hyperbole for effect, B. Merely rounding out the number, or C. A little bit of both.
@VioletEmerald
@VioletEmerald 5 жыл бұрын
This is such a great video essay
@ruelprakash7696
@ruelprakash7696 5 жыл бұрын
Wow. You are doing great work
@D0omC0okie
@D0omC0okie 5 жыл бұрын
This was a fantastic video
@j.elizabeth4621
@j.elizabeth4621 Жыл бұрын
Heller is totally correct. I'm working on a TV script, and have table reads with friends. We just stand around my laptop and read a few scenes. Then disband for half an hour, and come back. I've learned SO much about my story just from them asking questions. To me it is the difference between a fantastic beta reader or editor -- someone who asks the questions they want to.
@lonemotheomatshaba9640
@lonemotheomatshaba9640 5 жыл бұрын
What Tywin is saying Savage books is that he didn't know the names of the dragons and the their riders except for Aegon and Balerion.....And in the town room Tywin is talking about the skulls of the dragons. which means he was the is internal consis
@paulshipper143
@paulshipper143 5 жыл бұрын
I enjoy this, thank you.
@batesjernigan1773
@batesjernigan1773 2 жыл бұрын
This whole video is worth it just to catch that pic at 13:20. Outstanding
@armandogalindo7412
@armandogalindo7412 3 жыл бұрын
This reminded me of a video where Jordan Peele is asked if in Get Out, Rose's character eats cereals and milk separate because it's a metaphor for how she separates "the colored from the white to not ruin the purity of the white", and Peele only replies "emm no, I did it to accentuate how crazy the bitch is"
@ursidae97
@ursidae97 5 жыл бұрын
I think Antman would work better if he had a switch on his body that causes him to either act as extremely dense, or as the size he appears to be. So when it's flipped one way he can ride an ant, and when it's flipped the other he can punch a man.
@user-be3lq1il4t
@user-be3lq1il4t 5 жыл бұрын
Great video my guy
@raphaelmarleyalves7475
@raphaelmarleyalves7475 5 жыл бұрын
great video omg id love you to talk more about mother!
@dgraykage231
@dgraykage231 5 жыл бұрын
Hasn't everyone taken an English class where the teacher says "Any opinion is valid as long as you can defend it using the text."?
@conscious_being
@conscious_being 5 жыл бұрын
Writers could be throwing in symbolism without being aware of it. It might genuinely surprise them later on what their subconscious let slip, but for it to be internally consistent, it has to be the writer's intent, conscious or subconscious.
@SirisLayer
@SirisLayer 5 жыл бұрын
Fantastic video. And very interesting. I think we want to see meaning in our lives and our fiction and sometimes we struggle to accept if there is none intended. But it doesn't mean we can't assign meaning to the content we consume. I just wonder how much writers could use external interpretation as a getaway to excusinh harmful messages and content (e. G. Discrimination messages, mental health etc)
@kokujin8
@kokujin8 4 жыл бұрын
This has certainly given me insight after seeing some of the more interesting Mr. Robot theories after the finale
@aryamouzon7476
@aryamouzon7476 5 жыл бұрын
When I write I sometimes leave hints of things for my readers, not knowing myself what they mean but waiting to hear what they imagined. I love the idea of not knowing myself and learning concepts from the readers, and I love the fact that one thing can mean something completely different to someone else. 😊
@WitchLunaEstrella
@WitchLunaEstrella 4 жыл бұрын
I'm inclined to agree with Heller. I think it's likely for writers to do things accidentally or for meanings to evolve in ways the writer didn't consider. It's part of what's exciting about writing, seeing what other people can draw from what you've given them and see what you didn't even know about yourself and your work.
@weirdtree8611
@weirdtree8611 4 жыл бұрын
It's absolutely incredible to see this happened with media and the creators. The interpretation of viewers v. the vision of the author. It's really funny to me bc I do deep interpretation bc I want to respect the author but sometimes it just depends. The creator could've done something in the fly like the view from halfway down in Bojack or take so much time to understand their world like Atlantis. Most people don't realize that something happens bc they wanted to and not some deep meaning behind it. I'm an artist and I do things because I'm trying to improve but my uncle who loves art give meaning behind it and I could only say "...yes" I don't want to say he's wrong but I just enjoy and value how much value other people put into my work without being my intention. And I think that the beauty of art, what I means to others.
@alecopedia5744
@alecopedia5744 3 жыл бұрын
I once made a short film called double date, about two people with DID going on a date, trying to hide their other personalities from each other. When I showed it to somebody close, they said that they liked how it was a clever Metaphor for how people always hide their true selves from each other when on a first date. In reality, I made the short film because I thought calling the movie Double Date was a funny pun. I learned something new about my own story that day.
@NPC-yg6ik
@NPC-yg6ik 5 жыл бұрын
Great video
@user-lm8zg4md5r
@user-lm8zg4md5r 5 жыл бұрын
Its simple as to why you can learn from your own book, its your subconscious coming out. I learned so much looking back at my own writing as to where and why I wrote what I did. Its fascinating.
@kiracrowley9150
@kiracrowley9150 4 жыл бұрын
When does art become art? I always like to believe it’s when it’s shared. Until then, it just exists in my head
@wasteoftime5848
@wasteoftime5848 5 жыл бұрын
This reminds of a video essay on, of all things, an avengers film. The author of the video was seeing such dark symbolism within the film he was taking offense to and passing moral judgement upon a movie about a purple man on a quest to find six magic stones. I was already well aware of the concept of unintended symbolism but not how deep the rabbit hole can go.
@megag52
@megag52 5 жыл бұрын
the idea that anybody can make up any valid meaning from a story they want makes no sense and fails when put to the test, By this logic somebody can interpret "how to kill a mocking bird" as pro black slavery! ive heard a lot of people push the idea that meaning comes from the reader as much as the author but never got a good answer to this question in 10 yrs.
@filhanislamictv8712
@filhanislamictv8712 2 жыл бұрын
We Matter. "Cries a little inside"
@samuelbattershell3413
@samuelbattershell3413 4 жыл бұрын
When you kill the author, anything and everything goes, and when everything goes, nothing goes.
@OblivionRecorderJr
@OblivionRecorderJr 5 жыл бұрын
Its just crazy cause literally just this morning I was debating with my friend the signaficance of a throw away line in the new spiderman movie. He was claiming that the writers meant it a certain way while I said its not significant enough for it to have been anything other than a coincidence but he may still have been right because we dont know the intention. Then *poof* this video.
@DarthGandalfTheGrey
@DarthGandalfTheGrey 5 жыл бұрын
I have to admit, I found your channel through your Game of Thrones videos. I subscribed to your channel because of videos like this one.
@Tman87
@Tman87 5 жыл бұрын
@savagebooks Thanks a ton for addressing this. Popularly, such kind of interpretation is also known as the 'Author Vs The English Teacher'. I so badly regret that I discovered your channel today, but then, I guess, it's better late than never. I really love the way you analyse and, moreover, the topics you analyse. Keep such good stuff coming! You've a regular visitor in me - already subscribed. As an aside, I've a question. And I don't want to go the ' Author Vs The English Teacher ' way. Hence, I'll straight away ask, why call your channel SavageBooks? P.S.- Really loved your videos on 'Joker Vs the mob', this video, and the video on Hereditary (a fine example of creating horror by blending it with grim human sufferings). Minor complaint- Please don't say 'Writers don't matter' (since I am an aspiring one and I know you didn't mean it the way I interpreted it before watching the video). You could have titled it something to the effect of 'A lot changes after a writer is done writing the final draft'. Just a humble suggestion. But then again, it's just a minor complaint. It didn't hurt me after I watched the video since everything you said is a fact. Awaiting your next video. And kudos to you (and to your team if you have one) for putting in such exhaustive efforts. All the best!
@MiguelAngelassence
@MiguelAngelassence 3 жыл бұрын
Great topic. I think: When diligent / conscientious creative people work on things that appear unintentioanlly on the first sight, even for themselves, they act subconsciously logical and connectiv. Sounds made up, and it is not always the case. But it is, when people love and care about what they are working on. If someone is a logical person, his/her mind works like this, even subconsciously. Because you want to make your project feel real for yourself. Even when it's sometime just a coincidence, it's often subconsciously the tend / strive to connect meaning and logic.
@asteroidfarm4841
@asteroidfarm4841 4 жыл бұрын
I love this video so much..
@Matthew_Murray
@Matthew_Murray 5 жыл бұрын
The way I see it if a writer wanted to tell us what they think they could just write an essay saying what they believe. If they choose to write fiction than as an audience we have the right to interpret it anyway we see fit, as long as we can use the text to justify our interpretation than no one author or otherwise can say those interpretations are wrong.
@TheTrueAlpharius
@TheTrueAlpharius 5 жыл бұрын
I agree. As a historian one is free to claim anything as long as it doesn't contradict any sources. I'd also say that any broader meaning in fiction is only there as long as it is written down in said fiction. As you said, the author should just write an essay to get his point across.
@careensquare7772
@careensquare7772 5 жыл бұрын
Fascinating as always. Let me ask you: how do you feel about people's perspectives and interpretations and their effect on reality? At the risk of inadvertently proving your point, I can't help but feel like there's something you are saying about that as well.
@Infamous1892
@Infamous1892 5 жыл бұрын
This video is bad. It doesn't make sense to say a writer doesn't matter. No matter what themes or plots or actions taken in a story they don't happen unless someone thinks of the idea and write it down. Your interpretation nis yours, but that has nothing to do with writing and creating process. We wouldn't have A Game of Thrones if George RR Martin didn't sit down and create his ideas.
@blazearmoru
@blazearmoru 5 жыл бұрын
OMG, affordable editing! O-O *Instantly subs*
@birdpaladin9332
@birdpaladin9332 4 жыл бұрын
As an editor, how do you feel about the collaborative story telling environment that is table top role playing? Have you ever watched Critical Role? What do you think of it? How do you write for it? DM's control the flow of the game, the times for lore, then entrance of new characters... is this like impromptu editting?
@8bitmagic
@8bitmagic 5 жыл бұрын
Why aren't I subscribed? I watch your videos all the time. I gotta fix that....now. :p good video as usual
@manamaster6
@manamaster6 5 жыл бұрын
This video reminded me of what Michael Shermer proposed when he wrote on Scientific American his essay on Patternicity and Agenticity, how people find meaning and symbolism behind patterns they identify everywhere. Also, I watched the video about challenges in Shazam and I liked it, but I had no idea the man presenting the video was the actual director, just a knowledgeable fan or a journalist.
@ShootMeMovieReviews
@ShootMeMovieReviews 5 жыл бұрын
An interpretation maybe cannot be 'wrong' in the sense that as long as the viewer gets some enjoyment out of it, their perspective has validity. However, an interpretation can be arbitrary, or even objectively incorrect. For example, when people say that the final act of Minority Report occurs solely in Anderton's mind, this is an example of an arbitrary interpretation. It's not specifically wrong, but nothing in the text of the film supports it. It's just a theory people can use to filter their experience of the film arbitrarily - a way they prefer to imagine it, rather than actually recognizing something in the movie itself and identifying it. As an example of an incorrect interpretation, I'd suggest that an interpretation based on a viewer's misunderstanding of the story would fall under that category. For instance, I knew someone who mistakenly thought that the true crime book in The Bone Collector was written by Denzel Washington's character (it wasn't), and that he therefor knew all along what was happening. My friend's misunderstanding of a basic plot element lead him to interpret meaning in character behavior that simply isn't there. So the viewer can be wrong - and is wrong more often than the writer. You could just as easily make an essay titled "Why Viewers Don't Matter".
@rauldjvp3053
@rauldjvp3053 5 жыл бұрын
Here’s a quote from The Death of The Author that I believe summarizes it: *We know that a text does not consist of a line of words, releasing a single "theological" meaning (the "message" of the Author- God), but is a space of many dimensions, in which are wedded and contested various kinds of writing, no one of which is original*
@carso1500
@carso1500 4 жыл бұрын
At the same time death of the author can cause problems, like for example when people "interpret" a story in a certain way that somehow gives them validation to attack said author
@rauldjvp3053
@rauldjvp3053 4 жыл бұрын
carso1500 Any examples? I need to understand what “attack” would mean here - a personal attack? An attack to their beliefs?
@carso1500
@carso1500 4 жыл бұрын
@@rauldjvp3053 i mostly talk when certain people use a work of fiction to attack personaly an author because they have assumed that he has certain believes based on his works, like how it has happened that certain authors are attacked by the LGBT comunity for not putting any gay character in their story
@sahildahiya2396
@sahildahiya2396 5 жыл бұрын
Amazing video! Although, I would recommend you to take a look into the lore of Dark Souls too when talking about internal validity. Especially the decision to cut out material from the final game to keep things more ambiguous. Now, this decision might have been motivated by the limitations of the consoles. Regardless, people to this day look for clues and hints throughout the game to comes up with concrete theories.
@joshuaducker5960
@joshuaducker5960 2 жыл бұрын
This video reminds of the cut chapter from Berserk. Both the 90's anime and the Golden Age movies partially adapt this chapter when Griffith is before the Idea of Evil. From what I know, Kentaro Miura had this chapter removed because he thought he wrote himself into a corner with it. For me personally, I find the story as a whole makes more sense with this chapter in mind considering this is the one time we see Griffith in true isolation, and have a better understanding of his motives.
@brb1017
@brb1017 5 жыл бұрын
@Savage Books ... without having greater context... I'd argue that Heller was talking about a completely different idea. And that Heller was referring to subconscious programming as opposed to audience constructed meanings. In other words, if I am raised as a Christian there is a good chance my books will carry Christian values and themes even without my realizing it. The same can be true of prejudices, upbringing, and the media that I consume and that influences my life and thinking. Even before studying the official hero's journey or the three act structure my stories may conform to it simply because my favorite entertainment does and I subconsciously turn to that format to tell my tales. Likewise, without knowing it I can perpetuate ideas and trains of thought that my readers will pick up on. Hence, I will learn more about my writing. This isn't because the meaning wasn't there. But like going to a therapist for counseling, maybe I never saw it until someone pointed it out. And by doing so, I now have potentially learned something significant about myself and/or my piece of fiction and the message I am intentionally or accidentally conveying. 🤷‍♂️
@estevao6
@estevao6 5 жыл бұрын
your channel is a gem to understanding writing
@palacsinta6622
@palacsinta6622 5 жыл бұрын
That shittyflute GoT opening killed me 😂
@GnarledStaff
@GnarledStaff 3 жыл бұрын
A lot of the examples felt like they were really reaching. Darla did not "have a character arc" in Shazam. At most it was ironically funny. I feel that its ok for people to look for meaning in a piece of writing. However, it is super annoying when people feel they must find some symbolism in it
@talefey
@talefey 4 жыл бұрын
In Lord of the Rings, some of the orcs have human overseers. Those humans, particularly those of the double-agent variety, may mingle with the rest of human society and, as a consequence, visit tavers on occasion. Now, taverns may have menus so what this means is that the human overseer double-agent may reference said menus when dealing with their orc subjigates. Furthermore, the human may even go so far as to coordinate group feedings of their orc troops (especially if they have dealings with human military training camps in middle-earth) with a word like, "menu."
@OmegaLittleBob
@OmegaLittleBob 3 жыл бұрын
My favorite is where MCU Nick Fury is Jules from Pulp Fiction, thanks to Fury's gravestone at the end of Winter Soldier XD
@AMcGrath82
@AMcGrath82 5 жыл бұрын
This is actually something I've experienced myself. Sometimes I write about things I find profound, but I don't know why until someone else reads it and says "this is why this scene works." It's a huge part of the industry.
@KatherinaBathory
@KatherinaBathory 4 жыл бұрын
Regarding death of the author, the Argentinian writer Julio Cortázar, hated the "passive reader" so much, that he wrote a short story just to kill him/her. The story is called "the continuity of parks" that ends with the fiction killing the passive writer. I very much suggest you read it. Even though I spoiled the ending, it's a very good read (and the spoiler doesn't really take that much away from it).
@driftingdruid
@driftingdruid 3 жыл бұрын
13:51 to 14:17 somehow reminds me of The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt game, where players make consequential decisions in-game that, to some degree, alter the storyline and the environment ( but then again, I still have an ongoing Witcher obsession as of late ) One question though: At what degree does not fully understanding, or misinterpreting, the work, actually ruin the conveyance of meaning through the source material?
@shahabodinphoenix7502
@shahabodinphoenix7502 3 жыл бұрын
OH MY GOD I love you man
@thecountbrothers2287
@thecountbrothers2287 3 жыл бұрын
It always bother me that Twynn in the show doesnt remember Visenya and Rhaenys, when Rhanenys and her dragon were killed in dorne and began the bloodiest conflict under Aegon's rule, and Visenya not only funded the Kingsguard but was the mother (and demon on the shoulder) of Maegor, the worst Targaryen king.
@RoamingAdhocrat
@RoamingAdhocrat 4 жыл бұрын
14:47 I'm sliiightly disappointed you didn't match up footage of Hal naked in a shop with Walt naked in a shop ;)
@DarkThomy
@DarkThomy 3 жыл бұрын
I live in europe.. I'm now quite confused of what the ok symbol is supposed to mean if it is not "okay"..
@Richard_Nickerson
@Richard_Nickerson 5 жыл бұрын
2:10 This is the kind of shit I wasted years trying to explain to my English teachers during reading assignments!
@danielkjm
@danielkjm 5 жыл бұрын
Your channel its beyound good, and all writers need to know your channel, i already recomended to all my friends
@BlackXSunlight
@BlackXSunlight 5 жыл бұрын
I'm curious on where you stand with the audience inferring a theme that the author not only did not intend but opposes?
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