One sign of Ryder's betrayal is in the mission House Party. A Grove Street member informs CJ, Sweet, and Ryder about the Ballas' impending attack. The latter says he's going to go get some back up, but never participates in the gunfight, because you won't see him at the end

Even as a 9 year old child, I remember how odd, forced and unnatural Ryder’s betrayal felt

Everyone needs a homie like Caesar

Incredible how after almost 2 decades of release, we are still discussing elements of this game

It just feels so incomplete when Ryder felt like such a real homie

I've always said in videos like this or discussions about Ryder, that he should have died in The Green Sabre mission during the shootout under highway with Ballas. It'd be better outcome for the whole story and Smoke's betrayal would feel harsher and ending would bring more satisfaction of the revenge

I never knew that's why big smoke was in the house in the beginning. When I first played I assumed they was close like that and had keys to each other's houses or something like that. He was waiting to bat sweet to death. Damn, big smoke was scandalous

This is something that pisses me off to this day. Even during the introduction there was no signs of Ryder being involved he only knew what Smoke told him. All Ryder missions benefitted Grove Street as well. People also mistake Ryder being mean to CJ as hate. Not realizing Ryder only been upset and hurt CJ ran away from home. People seem to forget Ryder was CJ’s childhood friend. Rockstar forced Ryder into the “Green Sabre” mission cutscene, it made no sense. The whole shit with him hanging with T-Bone, Jizzy & Ballas made zero sense as well. Also MC Eiht, Ryder’s voice actor confirmed it was Rockstar who told him that’s all they wanted to do with his character.

I think that the only mistake was placing ryder on the green saber cutscene. Removing him would make the plot more convincing.

I think Rockstar just wasn't sure what to do with the character of Ryder after CJ left Los Santos, so they decided to shoe horn him into the betrayal storyline and kill him off with as little hassle as possible. It's a shame, it would have been good to see Ryder again upon CJ's return to LS and have him help (in his own way) bring down Big Smoke.

i always imagined ryder got converted by smoke behind the scenes during the early missions. it was clear he wasn't in on it in the beginning.

10:25 Not sure if you know this already, but the Introduction was released after the game.

Just a little bit of a reminder here: The GTA SA Introduction was made AFTER the game's development, not before it. Everything that happens in the introduction is based on the game's script after it was finished, and that script changed A LOT.

People always say Ryder left the grove “out of nowhere” or “for mo reason” when the police and smoke where in an international drug smuggling ring. Like Walter white levels of cash. That’s why Ryder left, for the unbelievable piles of cash. It’s not spelled out in the game, but is it unreasonable to believe an international drug ring in Los Angeles would be making massive piles of cash?

5:57 The train made the police car breackdance in the air 💀💀💀

MC Eiht quitting early was one of those GTA myths I actually believed up to this point. Crazy the things you learn. FR tho, I don't think Ryder should've betrayed Grove Street. Even if the original beta scenes were what Rockstar ran with, his betrayal still would've felt undercooked. I think that's why the myth persisted so long.

In the Mission "Pier 69", CJ and Cesar are only going to take down The Loco Syndicate in which they have to kill Mike Toreno, Jizzy (Already dead) and T-Bone. There isn't any sign show that they will kill Ryder there, maybe Rockstar just add him in this mission.

About House Party mission and this one being "First sign of Ryder betrayal" Someone actually did logical POV of Ryder going around whole Grove street and gathering peoples, it would simply take him TOO much time to gather any peoples from outside and come back for massive shooting. It was simply too short event for Ryder, CJ and rest became such good squad they were able to squash ballas without outside help when Ryder thought they would need outside back up.

Ive seen a handful of videos on this topic...but this makes the most sense, especially with the beta and voice clips.

I feel like ryders betrayal was meant to be a "happens later" type thing like it seems they certainly did plan to have him be a betrayer, but I think maybe the original plan was for ryder to be legit to START with and then get convinced or pressed into betraying the gang later, and then rockstar changed the timeline to make it so rider and smoke were in deep from the start, which would explain why he was crammed into scenes that dont acknowledge him, but the beta still having the mission where you kill him it would kinda explain why ryder talks about the green saber but still gets shut down why he shoots at the ballas and everything like maybe hes in the process of getting pressed into the betrayal but isnt about it yet

I believe Ryder and Big Smoke talked in the car before coming back to pick up CJ and Sweet. He either convinced him, or blackmailed him

Talking about a topic i like and a voice that doesn't make me want to put a power drill in my ear is a instant sub

Great job stitching the cut beta lines and footage together to make your case. I think you're right (I watched the full intro movie myself back when the game was brand new so I was always suspicious of him on my first playthrough), but now the mystery remains as to why Rockstar wanted to bother to make the changes over what they originally had for the same Ryder outcome? Every MC Eiht interview bits I've seen suggested that he actually wanted to record more lines if he could.

That's because Rockstar never intended to make Ryder an antagonist his voice actor & Rockstar had issues so he had to leave them that's why Ryder's death is treated as nothing & forgetable because they rushed it because they need to get rid of his character.

I think it could've been done better, some things got rushed and mixed up in the final release when they were scrapping and re-adding things, but it always made sense to me that Ryder was a traitor. Big Smoke at least acted a friend right, Ryder never did, he was always out for himself. Good vid dude, keep it up

I always felt Ryder's betrayal came out of no where and kind of hurt, whereas Big Smoke was shady from the start when you went back and thought about it. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was a change they made later to wrap up his story.

Ryder is an og, rockstar have plans for him but because of their terrible pay to the va and va quitting. They have to salvage him which made his part doesn't make sense after the newer mission. Sweet and Ryder's mission to CJ benefits the gang but Smoke's mission only benefits to himself and the tenpenny

Look at Ryder that snake hanging out with the Ballas like they was life long pals.

What if Big Smoke blackmailed Ryder into betraying Grove Street Families?

Something that always gets overlooked is how Ryder was put directly in the line of fire of the Ballas in the drive-thru mission by sitting right next to CJ. So he has a reason to be pissed off with Big Smoke given the plan put his whole life on the line

Og loc was more loyal than smoke

For me, I always remembered after the Home Invasion mission, CJ told Ryder "One day you'll wish you never pissed me off." And I felt like this was foreshadowing a future fallout so I wasn't surprised it happened. Plus Ryder looked like Eazy-E so I always thought he was the bad guy cause I grew up on Dr Dre and Ice Cube.

Wow I just got back from the gym, what a treat

Ryder’s betrayal was never supposed to happen but changes was made during making of the game

my head canon is that ryder was initially on our side and loyal, but sometime during our first rise to power (probably after the mission where we rob the train for tenpenny) big smoke brings him in, and it just becomes about kicking CJ and Sweet out

Ryder voice actor quited the project, he had a lot of musical productions going on. Main fact about the unnatural change of script.

If you haven't, you should check out the GTA San Andreas Rewrite in Fanfiction. It shows how Ryder staying on Grove's side could work. I would love to hear your thoughts about the rewrite.

Pier 69 doesnt even have new lines, its just spliced existing lines

They should have killed off the character under the Mulholland Intersection, that would have done him justice since they lost the voice actor. OR they could have signed a different voice actor and just re-do the lines... But one of the main flaws of Rockstar has always been that they are cheap a-holes

The police car got hit by the train and flipped into the air and you shot it. Sick

Don't think this busts anything, nothing here is conclusive. It was always assumed the dialogue for CJ concerning Ryder was created after MC Eiht left the project. Swapping Ryder and T-Bone's deaths in the final game was probably done because there was more of a connection to Ryder's character than T-Bone;s. As for the Introduction cutscene between Ryder and Smoke, I don't think that's enough evidence to disprove the strange details surrounding how Ryder was handled.

They should of kept Ryder as a good guy fo Gstreet sure he was an asshole but not a Traitor IMO

It’s not Ryder betraying Grove Street what upset me, it’s how it was handled in the story, he’s glossed over. And this is suppose to be CJs childhood friend?

Until we get our hands on the older beta versions(the Orange Groove version) of SA,this will always remain a mystery. God i hate NDA that goes on for decades, the devs should have the right to openly talk about the beta builds to the fans. The rushed way Ryder's death is handled just makes it come off as weird because Smoke's death had such a much more impactful death scene. Also, does anyone else find it weird that CJ doesn't kill OGLoc even though he betrayed the GSF??

That line in the opening ("Bullets cant stop me") would be better set up for rider to be killed on the railling than in the boat

Something I only realized now is that Smoke moved out of Grove thanks to getting money from his aunt, but in another mission (The Running Man?) he refers to marijuana as his cousin. So his "aunt" might also be the big man's euphemism for getting money from drug trade.

So mf epic that alot of us still enjoy this gem 20 years later 😌🔥 I'm glad the gta classic trilogy got a proper visual overhaul on mobile, sucha breeze to play fasho

What I actually believe is that there was suppose to be more missions where Smoke turns Ryder over , there must have been problems with the missions and it would glitch so they were removed or there wasnt enough time to put the extra ones where we see Ryder betraying Goove Street. It makes much better sense then Rockstar just making Ryder betray out of nowhere.

I love your vids

I love your videos

There is a Catalyst mission too, where Tenpenny and Pulaski arrived and to his house and tell them about the train.

So you're saying two things could be true? 1. MC Eiht did quit during production 2. Ryder was always going to betray the Grove anyway

This is a real interesting video and you make solid points. I still wish Ryder would have stuck with CJ though. He just seemed so entertaining to me.

Ryder was just added as a antagonist after the story was done cuz mc eight got knocked and they couldn't wait for him same thing happened with lamar and Franklin

6:28 What song is that? Awesome video, by the way. Ryder ain't no buster.

They realised ryder would be a bigger plot twist than big smoke because ppl would be emotionally affected more and it did cuz ryder was like the real G u look up 2

Video idea:you can rank all gta villains

i read somewhere that it was all because rhyderd voice actor left without finishing his lines, which is why they had to change his story and recycle his lines

Also no one ever mentions in the mission "Catalyst" Ryder is CLEARLY cooking drugs for Tenpenny.

I think Rockstar changed their mind about Ryder during development and his betrayal was not always meant to happen. It just doesn't fit the same way it does with Smoke.

That makes a lot more sense than what we've got. Too bad it was changed up, cause leaving Ryder's betrayal as a surprise would make this game even more epic.

If they really had to kill him off, they could have at least gave him a heroic death in The Green Sabre, where he dies in the shootout between the Families and the Ballas.

Been replaying San Andreas while watching this vids

for me personally, the most annoyed character was Sweet.. even in the end he doubts CJ as him doing anything good.. like he blames CJ after literally saving the whole neighborhood... i think Smoke managed to Betray them bcuz of Smoke's huge Ego and Pride

I still don't understand why Ryder appears in the scene with the green sabre. They added him in later, which is a bit of extra added work, to create a weird plothole? It feels like without him in that scene, CJ's reaction in both that cutscene and the cutscene in the later mission where he noticed Ryders betrayal would make more sense. Am I missing something? I still don't get why they decided to add him in that cutscene last minute.

Imagine videos like this back then

Ill be honest gta san andreas is an absolute classic and its probably the biggest game of my childhood, but it really lost steam toward the end

And some of Ryder missions was actually helping out Grove Street , for example robbing Uncle Sam

We need mod that replace Ryder model near green sabre garage with some ballas and change back sound where CJ blames Ryder when doing photos. This will make more sense and fix story.

One thing to note is that Ryder is the one to point the Ballas' car passing by while Big Smoke stays silent and alerting everyone of the drive by. Ryder ruined the drive by in some way, so he was still with GSF at some point

where do you get the beta missions and content from?

Ryder wasn't supposed to betray his gang. Big Smoke was meant to be the only traitor, but Rockstar Games changed their mind. They probably wanted Ryder to die in that shootout with the police.

1:15 Ryder actually leaves us behind because at the beginning of the game he considers that CJ is a busta. This scene only proves that if CJ fails the mission he's not gonna be respected by the other members of the gang.

1:35 he was high, so it's realistic, alcoholics, weedheads, addicts in general usually slip something up unintentionally because they either care for the one they talk to, or they're just high.

Hated Photo Oppurtunity. Makes no sense to be yelling on top of a roof when you’re trying to be stealthy about it.

Why wouldn't Ryder shoot at people shooting at him? Doesn't matter who he's working for in that moment, the fact that Smoke doesn't shoot is because he's a dick. I'm so confused at the people in the comments saying his betrayal felt forced... like, he was a lazy abrasive jerk the whole time...

Even if MC Eiht said that Rockstar wanted no more voice acting in San Andreas from him, the story still not make sense in this way. I had like 15 playthroughs from this game and even you said in the video that this don't make sense. Why would Ryder betray the Familes? And my biggest quesion is...why would Ryder die like that? No death Cutscene , no final words and no mention of him after the Yay Ka Boom Boom intro cutscene. Ceaser lied to CJ about Ryder wanted to bang Kendl. Kendl would tell about this to Sweet as well and Sweet would kick Ryder's ass or worst. Rocktar made Ryder dirty, because they don't know what to do with him after the Green Sabre mission or other unknow reason which we don't know about. I think Ryder should have died in the Green Sabre mission like a Hero, or he should have a bigger role in the story as CJ's close friend along with Ceser. Or if we want to stick to Ryder being a traitor, a Death Cutscene and some explaination would been good. For exemple after CJ shot Ryder, Ryder would have told CJ, that Smoke blackmailed him and forced him to work for him. Just like what Smoke did with the other grove street members. CJ would have felt guilty by killing Ryder and Ryder would die to his shot wounds in CJ's arms. This would gave CJ more hate towards Smoke and more motivation to hunt him down and destroy his crack emprie. We have the beta dialogues and most likely CJ would find out Ryder's betrayal in the Photo Opportunity as you said. But this don't mean that they not changed Photo Opportunity before the beta version of the mission which we know about. Most of the times there is a alpha version, the beta version (which is going to change over time) and in the end the final version. The orignal script/story of San Andreas would been different for sure. I think the correct way to describe this, is Ryder is a traitor in final game and in the end of the development Rockstar already decided that. But originally Ryder was not meant to be a traitor. Most of things which are indicate Ryder's betrayal could been easilly added to game after they decided that Ryder is going to be a traitor. For exemple the "You don't know what's going on!" line. The Introduction was made after the game was ready.

I feel like they changed his character mid development cause in the beginning of the game he acts normal

Ryder's betrayal was always sad cause he was the homie. unpopular but my fav section of the game is the country side, after the shootout with smoke getting dumped in the middle of nowhere. the texture of this game was mesmerizing

It actually wasn’t meant to happen, it was only when they thought of the loco syndicate that they told the va that he done enough lines and used Ryder as a villain

Big smoke most likely was staying back at the Johnson home for Cj. Cj was clearly late to his mother’s funeral. Big smoke stayed back, so when Cj does arrive, he can take him. He hadn’t seen Cj in a while, so went in to attack him.

I feel like the original idea for Ryder was meant to be the scape goat for big smoke and tempany and was forced to betray, but Rockstar couldn't figure out how to get from point A to B for Ryder. I do believe that the return to Los Santos would made sense where Ryder died

4:50 I thought that meant something like were taking out one of thier ogs, with the aid of ten penny a cop, who's trying to get rid of every gang leader who won't sell his drugs.

Do the Ryder mission benefit Groove Street though? You steal the weapons from all those places, but they never get to Groove Street, like in Home Invasion, where "LB" takes the weapons, but they are never used by Groove members, and the Ballas are really well equipped at the end of the game, so were you just stealing weapons for Smokes guards at his crack house?

I always found that one break in mission with Ryder funny - the failure I mean - since it seems more like a comedy routine you'd see in movies. A guy breaks in, another waits as the driver, the mission fails, and the driver just drives off. It's a dickish thing to do, but it is still funny.

Ryder disappearing if you fail the home invasion all characters disappear if you fail a mission

You should do a video of mary beth maybell and the rose radio station she tells hidden Stories of her life and multiple husbands and what happens to them

Everyone's talking about Ryder's voice lines like hes actively not smoking home made pcp for the whole game

I read somewhere(dont remember it was YEARS ago when i read this) that ryder was supposed to be alive through the whole game and he was double crossing smoke because he was planned to be involved in the final chase with tenpenny and there were some lines mentioning ryder helping sweet and cj that seem to point to this but i dont know how true it is still wouldve been cool to see other than just writing ryder off like that

They had to kill off rhyder in the game because of his voice actor who quit.

Kinda strange how his betrayal makes more sense in the beta stages of the game than in the final version

Honestly if they just wanted to get rid of ryder they should have made him die in the shootout where sweet got shot That way big smoke betray would have been harsher

im sad we didn t get cutscene where ryder and cj talked afret mission where we killed him...

So basically Rockstar botched his betrayal. See when it was previously believed that Ryder's VA quit mid-way through, it was understandable at how shit his "betrayal" played out. They had to play the cards they were dealt. But knowing everything we do now, it seems like Rockstar just fumbled his character and even the beta versions of these missions suggest that no real care was put into him turning on the Grove. It just... happens. Out of nowhere. Smoke's side was clearly more important and well thought out. Ryder is basically a "Grove Street Member" who found his way into the main cast. It's sad too because we learn at one point CJ and Ryder knew each other as kids. They could've really had an emotional storyline with his betrayal or maybe a plot twist where he almost gets corrupted by Smoke but in the end helps CJ take him down. Such a huge missed opportunity...

If they ever remake this game. I want ryder to be playable after the green sabre mission where him and cj are arrsted and taken to the woods. With that we get to hear more about their past and the friendship healing as the game continues.

Caesar is my alltime favorite homie of the whole series. Such an awesomely written good guy imo

He wasn't supposed to betray you the voice actor walked out midway through production and rockstar had to reuse dialogue

Ryder is my favourite character from the early game. He deserved better.

The song in the beginning of the video,what is the name?

Let's all appreciate how much effort he puts in his videos 😊