Why You Shouldn't Cycle Here

Рет қаралды 14,046

Жыл бұрын

The Dutch "Suggestiestrook" is often confused for being a bike lane. In this video, Steffen explains what it is and what its used for.

Пікірлер: 66

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

Quick correction. This first example shown of a suggestiestrook is actually a “kantmarkering”

@09conrado Жыл бұрын

Yes! You're definitely not supposed to cycle, or drive, on that rough rumble strip. It's meant for drainage and for keeping cars at a bit of a distance from the pavement. Suggested cycle strips are much more like a bike lane, but without the bicycle emblem

@roelrijkens4061 Жыл бұрын

even worse. its a gutter.

@kailahmann1823 Жыл бұрын

In a city like Duisburg or Krefeld I'd still expect it being a mandatory bike lane :)

@BramLastname Жыл бұрын

@@roelrijkens4061 "kantmarkering" is a type of gutter.

@martinos9334 Жыл бұрын

i was about to criticize you on that but yea.. :P

@FlyingOverTr0ut Жыл бұрын

I'm so excited to see all these excellent new urbanist channels on KZfaq, yours included. Keep up the content! We need it.

@nathanyellll 11 ай бұрын

they help me understand the country as I am starting from the bottom of the barrel. 🫶

@rogerwilco2 Жыл бұрын

One important thing about the Dutch method is that we keep trying to improve things. We never think we have the perfect solution.

@ratelslangen Жыл бұрын

The solution in rural areas is to make the street itself narrow as intended but widen it using grate-structured concrete tiles. This allows heavy equipment to pass each other but nobody, including cyclings, will want to drive on them or think of them as proper street. They are just extended quasi paved skirts.

@AMacProOwner Жыл бұрын

Thank you for another video. Your B-roll game has improved a lot. (There's never enough B-roll. ;) The value of your videos in my eyes is the clear definition of a problem or question. Instead of immediately explaining the solution you describe the caveats how a problem appears. Often it's a good idea extended to fit another situation. Now I've learned when and why the middle line can and should be removed. While also being careful when suggestion lines can be mistaken for a dividing line, having the effect of making a street less safe. These more focused videos probably take a lot more time for you to create. As a viewer this style feels much more purposeful and shareable. Can't wait for the next one!

@stephanieabillama5290 Жыл бұрын

So interesting! I've always wondered whether or not I should cycle on these paths

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

you are only ever required too if there is a bicycle symbol on it. And if you see a bicycle symbol and no center striping, then it is an illegal bike lane and cannot be enforced. Meaning if you are given a ticket it will be dismissed in court if you challenge it. But do what you feel comfortable with. I wouldnt tell people to place themselves in 50 km/hr traffic just because thats how its "supposed" to work. But also dont feel like you have to be sandwhiched into 0.5 meters either.

@blakestrunkeng Жыл бұрын

Great video and a very interesting challenge for engineers! Sometimes road users don't fully grasp what an engineer intended like in this video, which can lead to more dangerous behavior. That's why traffic engineering is so interesting, you have to not only understand engineering principles but also human psychology!

@kailahmann1823 Жыл бұрын

To add to the confusion: The term "Suggestivstreifen" ("suggestive lane") had been used in Germany for advisory bike lanes - and the example you have at 4:40 looks exactly like those, except the middle might be to wide. It should only allow passenger cars to go though, while trucks and busses have to yield for bikes. And yep, cyclists hate them, bus drivers hate them. And truck drivers just run over you…

@seanprior4574 Жыл бұрын

Very informative! The production value gets better and better with each video!

@jimmsinger Жыл бұрын

I always learn something new from these! So well done and every time I learn more, I get more frustrated with how the US designs it’s streets!

@baux_dud Жыл бұрын

1. Many of the suggestiestroken you showed aren't actually suggestiestroken. 2. The suggestiestroken you showed in industrial areas aren't on 30 kmph streets but on 50 kmph streets. Almost all industrial areas in the country have a 50 kmph speed limit and only rudimentary or tagged-on bike infrastructure.

@MrHenkkkie Жыл бұрын

3:17 and 4:29 are definitely suggestiestroken, because it lacks the bicycle symbol. The bicycle symbol is the only difference beween a fietsstrook and a suggestiestrook

@Arjay404 Жыл бұрын

It seems like in a situation like what is shown iat 5:36, that the easiest and cheapest solution would be to move the parking lane to where the edgelane line is and then fill the remaining space of the former parking space with, bikes racks, containers,, potted plants and so on.. if there is enough money, you can even fill up the space with pavers and have it be level with the rest of the sidewalk to have wide sidewalks. The situation at 4:15 on the other hand would be more difficult (more expensive) to take care off, since there is less use for bike racks and plants and potted plants and other such stuff there.

@mdhazeldine 3 ай бұрын

Interesting topic! I wish the UK adopted a proper road categorisation system like this. I'm not sure if we have one, but I don't think so.

@pbilk Жыл бұрын

Thank you for this informative video! 😊

@Heavnick7 Жыл бұрын

Yes! This video is just what I needed. Thank you so much.

@RcSammy Жыл бұрын

Would you ever be willing to take a dive into comparing the USA's hierarchal road classification system with the Dutch equivalent or lack there of?

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

hey there one of my previous videos dove into how travel surfaces in the netherlands are organized, but there are a couple of errors present

@RcSammy Жыл бұрын

@@buildthelanes oh i didnt even realize you had that video! I think I half-watched it, thanks for being patient!

@emmar9104 Жыл бұрын

I'm confused why you'd call the US' road classification system more hierarchical than the Dutch? At first I thought you had it all wrong, seeing as to how many of their cities are almost perfect grids, which is exactly the lack of a hierarchy. But ofc that's not all of it. Maybe the US have a finer distinction of roads that are all at higher speeds, and for cars, whereas the Dutch have a finer distinction of roads that are at lower speeds, and not for cars? In that sense they're both hierarchical, it's just that they've sorta specialized into different modes of traffic altogether.

@infj4w511 3 ай бұрын

They could just decide to not make those suggestiestroken red, not put bike pictograms on them, and just keep the street narrow enough, so that it's clear that they're suggestiestroken. It really isn't difficult to make these safe, but cities don't always choose the safest option, because they might prioritize through traffic short-cuts over destination traffic safety.

@GirtonOramsay Жыл бұрын

Currently in Utrecht and was wondering where all of the bike infra was on residential looking streets. But yeah you were right and I also realized that nothing was needed on these quiet streets. Don't really have this in the states...

@kailahmann1823 Жыл бұрын

maybe because residential streets in the US are still wide like they are freeway lanes. :)

@jaspermooren5883 Жыл бұрын

@@kailahmann1823 Yeah and larger urban planning is often a mess, which means that a lot of traffic is coming through which destination is not nearby. The grid is the perfect example of this, where you might be travalling for 20-30 min over streets non stop. In the netherlands this (almost) never happens. Streets are really just there for the last 200m of your journey. This means that streets see way too much traffic in the US. On a street meeting other cars should be the execption, not the rule.

@kailahmann1823 Жыл бұрын

@@jaspermooren5883 in Germany we call this problem "Schleichverkehr", which has two meanings: being slow and being hidden. It's people driving strange detours, the planners didn't even know just to avoid a traffic jam - which they often enough make worse when they re-merge…

@jaspermooren5883 Жыл бұрын

@@kailahmann1823 that's a Dutch phenomenon as well, called 'sluipverkeer' which I'm pretty sure means the exact same thing, although my German is really bad. That is more of a problem on highways though, I was more talking about traffic inside cities.

@kailahmann1823 Жыл бұрын

@@jaspermooren5883 "sluip" and "schleichen" have probably even the same source :)

@zipzap8937 Жыл бұрын

I will continue to cycle on these roads thanks.

@nicjansen230 11 ай бұрын

I think bicycle gutters works fine, at least in rural areas in the Netherlands, since motorists know when to expect cyclists, most motorists also give them enough space (depending on their speed) and the roads with bicycle gutters have a low speed limit as well as a low demand for motorised traffic ...though the literal gutter at the beginning of the video is a bit extreme

@arthurhagen3826 Жыл бұрын

Rainwater doesn't penetrate asphalt. It does through pavement when it doesn't rain too hard though. Was this in Utrecht? These strips of parlement were policy there once. The line is not to mark a suggestion lane. It marks the edge of the asphalt.

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

This was in Haarlem. Yes I posted a comment where I corrected myself and identified the beginning as Kant markering. I did discuss it with my colleagues and they agreed there wasn’t a huge difference between this and a suggestiestrook because it truly in theory is not meant to be used for cycling and the markings are meant to mark the edges of the normal drivable street. The Kant markering is more of a “harder border” though. I am learning myself through these videos and I appreciate all the feeeback and information you guys give me in the comments

@peterfurth 2 ай бұрын

An edge line (shown at the start of the video) is not a "suggestiestrook" - that's a plain error. Also, the theory than on a local street (ETW), traffic should be so slow that you don't need a bike lane is nice, but is not practical because it neglects the stress that traffic volume, not just traffic speed, imposes on cyclists. On ETW's with 1,500 or more vehicles per day (and there are many in Dutch cities), and on rural ETW's with speed limit 60 km/h with more than 500 vehicles/day, cycling is far more comfortable when a space for cycling is designated using an advisory lane. Almost every Dutch city has them.

@TrulyMadlyShallowly Жыл бұрын

I'm Dutch and I had no idea about ETW's, though I have wondered. Thought they were misdesigned bike lanes!

@user-gi7pt8ue5n 3 ай бұрын

The statements in this video are not entirely correct. There are 2 different types of "stroken" (lanes): - A fietsstrook is a bike lane next to the road. That's an actual bikelane. Broken lines are indicating that cars are allowed to use the bikelane to pass traffic coming from the other direction where non-interupted lines are prohibiting cars to cross over to the bike lane. Fietsstroken can be painted red to make them more visible - A Fietssuggestiestrook are serving multiple purposes. The fietssuggestiestrook is actually just part of the car lane. However bikes can be expected on that "strook". The second purpose is indeed to make the road/lane seem smaller than it actually is to reduce car speed. The difference between the 2 is made clear by the bike being painted on the strook. There's a bike? Its a bike lane. No bike. Car lane, but bikes can be expected.

@sonnylatchstring Жыл бұрын

5:50 I don't think this car was doing 30 km/u here

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

yup,

@MrAronymous Жыл бұрын

Hmmm... sorry.. but "sidelines" are not the same as a suggestiestrook. A suggestiestrook is an unofficial cycle path that is meant to be cycled in, like at 3:24. It's an outdated concept and not preferred anymore. Simple lines along the side of the street to visually narrow the roadway aren't a suggestiestrook per se. You can find those on roads of all kinds of speed levels. And the difference between a suggestiestrook and a bike lane is indeed only the bike symbol on the road. But it does have consequences, because different rules apply to bike lanes with symbols. Also you're mistaking the "rules" of road layouts a bit. Because the road layouts can be made up by the municipalities themselves. Nothing illegal about a bike lane on an industrial site. However the municipalities are expected to follow best practices set by the CROW. These best practices can be ignored as they are suggestive. That is good, because there are thousands of individual unique situations where standard solutions wouldn't be the best. The Haarlem industrial park dashed bike lane is better than what was there when the road was constructed: no bike lane at all. It's true that not everything that is currently constructed follows current day best practice, as many infrastructure considered good 10 years ago may already be outdated by the latest insights. That does not mean however that no bike lane is better than a dashed bike lane.

@kailahmann1823 Жыл бұрын

Ah, ok… Now that's the thing I know here in Germany as a "Suggestivstreifen" as well. And really, they suck - but they may be "better than nothing" for places, where you have to much traffic to make an ETW design work and to little space for a bike lane.

@mavadelo Жыл бұрын

I would kind of think Haarlem is breaking that rule on purpose and with safety in mind. We Dutch are pragmatic people. So if something looks like a bike lane, is usable as a bike lane and has no "no bike" signs.... it is a bike lane. Not only cyclers will look at it that way but, in this case more important, car/motor traffic will look at it that way. When everyone is expecting behavior on a certain point... intentionally created or not, it is best to either remove or make official.

@MrHenkkkie Жыл бұрын

3:22 as far as I know, a fietsstrook is not illegal in a ETW, because these are all guidelines

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

Well yes, but because the rvv is mostly devoid a design guidance, the “design guides” in the Netherlands have a lot more weight than in other countries. This is by deliberate choice because when they passed sustainable safety, part of the effort was to designate policy and vision to the government, and the designer know how entirely up to designers instead of doing a mix of both

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

But I probably shouldn’t have used the word “illegal” but I wanted to try to find a way how to express that the design guide in crow is really more than just a design guide

@MrHenkkkie Жыл бұрын

@@buildthelanes ah thank you

@ray076NL Жыл бұрын

well, its not really undecided, it should be between 170 and 200cm. anyting under 170cm will feel small.

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

It’s not a bike lane

@ray076NL Жыл бұрын

@@buildthelanes i know, i design these things. youre welcome.

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

Crow is considering scrapping suggestiestrooks and good riddance

@buildthelanes Жыл бұрын

@@ray076NL if you check the design guidelines crow simply states “variable” as the suggested width because again, it’s not meant to be a bike lane. Preceding to design it just like one anyway breaks duurzamveilig in all but name since the ETW BIBEKO is not supposed to have a stroom functie. I think we probably eventually need a GOW 30 to solve this issue

@ray076NL Жыл бұрын

@@buildthelanes i agree they are a piece of crap, but eindhoven is doing a decent job on streets that would otherwise be to small. they aren't bad if they are designed well, but i do mean when they have just a single lane for car traffic and in that case crow suggests 170cm. but because crow leaves it up to interpretation you get turds like in your video but the idea of those streets seem to work quit well where i live, eindhoven, as they are well designed and wide enough 'bicycle lanes'. next video bicyclestreets? i dont personally like GOW 30, i am in support of GOW 40 as proposed by fietsersbond and goudappel. i believe thats a more reasonable ask from drivers. as with GOW 30 drivers wouldn't slow down properly in neigbourhoods is my expectation. 20 would be the new 30 in that proposal, but nobody is talking about it.