@@fangslore9988 Where does it state that officially? I have never seen anything official state that.

@@spellandshield I hate it when people delete comments, even if they were wrong it would be nice to at least know what got people to say things like what's stated in your reply. Also, do you know what was said or is it just lost to the ether now? :P

​@@azazelblackfire816 people cant help but be cowardly in this day and age.

@@azazelblackfire816 If I recall it was something about Jergal's divine state and I asked for a source about. When I talk about lore I am drawing upon memory from old and current sources as well as directly from sourcebooks I still own so I just wanted confirmation from him.

For a small fee, you can ask Withers to resurrect your recording equipment...

He is indeed very nosy for someone without one...

@@user-mu8dm4rk7g He's just salty that he cannot pull bitches like the PC so he just resorts to being petty like a high school mean girl

@@user-mu8dm4rk7g Not according to all the raphael/withers fanfiction XD (If I have to know that exists so does everyone else)

And thus, you are alone.

"Thou hast no maiden"

Kinda like Orcus when he killed the god of the robot dudes, he became true neutral when he took his not by choice but because it was the nature of that god he killed

Basically cleaning up his own mess

yes though he kept the scribe of the dead portfolio for himself, i assume it gave him the freedom to nolonger be the big bad boogyman of feyrune. makes sense he probably got tired of being evil

he isn't there by choice he was probably told to render aid to Tav/Dark Urge

Perhaps he feels some responsibility for the actions of his successors

Or the PC after certain endings.

Strange. I like this idea, but I thought Withers didn't like godhood, and is looking for 'equals' to himself. Maybe I'm wrong though and still love the replacements concept for the Dead Three.

Lol no. Arabella is going to became new chosen of Mystra. Weave, duh. And she is going to be taught to master it by "beard man". Elminster.

​@@user-xw5xo3bv1n Mystra: "Apparently my plan B just became part of the problem. Elminster! Put the boom into that little tiefling girl. We have a pretender god in need of being blown up."

​@@cavareenvius7886 the Weave connection was awakened by contact with idol. While Elminster was far away. Then Jergall convinced her to study Weave. Then after act 3 Elminster met Arabella and begun to teach her. It is obvious from epologue letters of Elminster and Arabella.

Maybe on a Tav/other Origin playthrough... but the amount of disappointment and anger in my Dark Urge playthrough has been crazy.

he admonished them in the way he did was because the dead 3 spent the very last of their power. when myrkrul's avatar was defeated he nolonger had any power left to even commune with mortals, when Orin was forced to become the slayer/Dark Urge refused them and being killed/dark urge forced to a mindless husk Bhaal used the last of his power and when Bane gave Gortash his aspect (the giant form) Bane used the last of his power. the dead 3 really are now dead gods in the literal sense they fell to the lowest type of quasi divine which cannot grant aspects nor contact their mortal followers and thus no longer interfere with the mortal realms and any attempt would result probably spend the last embers of their divine sparks with no results at all

@@fangslore9988 Was that ever actually said anywhere?

It's not the only time he's showing genuine emotions, but it's one of the few times where it's striking. Another instance is when you rescue Arabella, have her in your camp and tell her about her parents. When her magic goes haywire, Withers tells her she must leave. You can respond that you won't send her off by herself. To which Withers raises his voice at you, demanding firmly that "Thou must!"

@@ghalansmokescale5542 Withers when he told them that they will not trouble him any more plus in DnD quasi divine entities typically cannot act upon the mortal world without using up all their power yet the dead 3 did so. for myrkrul by giving his chosen his avatar was the last act he could do in the mortal world Bhaal by making Orin the slayer or by taking the durge's power or by driving the durge insane was his last act, and Bane turning gortash into his own aspect drained him of his last amounts of divine power. the plot in BG3 was the dead 3's last bid for power, if they had success (even if their success would still fail) if they regained their power they could regain their portfolios from Kelemvor but failure cost them everything. they literally cannot act upon the mortal world any more, this is directly because Io decreed that all divine entities gain power from numbers of worshipers, and in BG3 their worshipers had gathered as the top leaders of the cult of the absolute and now they are all dead. its also likely Io would take action of the dead 3 himself but under Io's Decree all divine beings have a finite amount of power based on their number of worshipers which is why the dead 3 sought to convert the entire sword coast to their worship using the absolute elder brain/netherbrain to do so. in the lore of DnD 5E its very easy to tell that this was their last attempt at anything i don't think it means they're erased but it just means as Quasi divine they are without power and nolonger have the ability to act upon the realms. i know a lot of people would disagree since they may have only played the BG3 and don't know DnD lore and how after the god-fall where the gods were sundered and brought to the prime material world Io created a decree that is still in act which gives all gods limited amout of power which is finite, and that all gods must gain power by the numbers of their worshipers this also impacted the dead 3 who by the time of the absolute crisis were already extremely weak being reduced to demi-god status since kelemvor has their godly portfolios as the god of death, burials and last rites, murder and tyranny though he is more responsible than the dead 3 being a truly neutral god who's teachings is that all have a due death they are fated for and that one's passing must be celebrated and that person's memories need to be kept alive. ok in a nutshell the dead 3 basically had finite powers and abilities being quasi-divine/demi-gods, the protagonist either Tav/Durg basically destroyed whatever worshipers the dead 3 had left meaning they lost every bit of the power they did have in conjunction with what they had left was used to attempt to stop Tav/Durg from wining, people also claim Bane didn't aid gortash, but Bane did give gortash his aspect which made him giant.

Could be either, we just don't know.

no, he was sent by kelemvor due to the fact that the gods already knew the Absolute was an elder brain and mortal souls vanish when they become ilithids and this is something that breaks the ballance of life and death. no more due deaths. no mortals to meet their destined death and so no souls would pass through the feugal plane to Kelemvor's realm. if the absolute ever won. Withers was like that of a tiny pebble that alters the current of a stream changing how events played out

Jergal: "If you must know I signed a contract with this damned Vincke person and now I'm forced to help you no matter how stupid you are"

I think it was that, the fact he's not necessarily required to appear in a specific way, and probably honestly? Because it's more relatable to the protagonists. If you opened up a tomb and a GIANT FUCKING PRAYING MANTIS SKELETON MAN COMES OUT and goes 'oh don't fear me I'm just a bit undead' I think it'd throw 'why is this undead nice' into 'WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS' same reason Elminster isn't allowed to pull out his canonical dual enchanted 1911 pistols in combat.

@@WereScrib I'm sorry, Elminster has what?

@@sallyforth9905Colt 45 ACP 1911s. If I remember right they have pearl handles and gold plating. This isn't alone in FR lore, the halfling language is closest to Quebecois French because their culture is influenced mostly by medieval France where they visited and imported foxes from (Foxes literally come from Earth, in FR) Similarly, Saint Sollars, the most famous Ilmatari saint, 'the twice martyred', is from Texas on Earth, the Monks of the Yellow Rose literally got their symbol from the Yellow Rose of texas, his symbol is a lone-star, and he compares orcs to cartel gangs.

as much as a god who is also a lich (he is the only god to ever become a Lich from what i remember)

@@WereScrib The giant praying mantis was a Netheril exclusive appearance. To everyone else he was either a old grumpy classic wizard looking man or some undead and every appearance of Elminster if you inspect (or accidentally kill) him is indeed a simulacrum (construct tag).

This is my personal interpretation of him as well, travelling with the party in some ways taught the dead god to appreciate life.

For once, he was not writing down someone's fate or reading it by glancing at them. Instead, he lived through one of these tales, and he found it an enjoyable experience.

Easy explanation, he met Karlach and thanks to her changed for better. She changes everyone. #easySolutions #TrustMeItsTotallyCanon

My headcanon from now on. Beautiful.

Perhaps more like an avatar

i have a theory this is his special more social form he can take for missions need him to guide someone lol

Since AD&D the 2nd listed power he explicitly has as a death god is that he can manifest as any undead. The mantis form meanwhile is a explicit netheril only one and even during 2nd ed he appeared as a old grandpa/wise wizard man.

I think more no other reason than it made a better story. Which is what DMs do all the time. It's not like the lore for Forgotten Realms has always been consistent anyway.

And that change is definitely for the better. It's both more immersive to have Owlbear as just regular Apex predators than just another bloodthirsty creature, nothing about mixing an owl and a bear together screams "they are immediately going for your throat unlike regular bears". Being able to cast speak with animals to talk with them is just really good for the world building in general too.

@@sephikong8323 Yeah, it's fine to have some "animals" that really are just beasts that have to be dealt with - or in this case, magically created hyper aggressive monsters. But design wise, the owlbear really doesn't look the part. It just looks like a normal fantasy creature that's just minding it's business (Hippogriffs, Flying Snakes and Stirges are just normal animals too, after all - so being a hybrid animal clearly doesn't make you act like this). Considering that both BG3 as well as the D&D movie treat them as regular animals, it's not hard to imagine that this is their new "look" going forward. Not to mention that the old owlbear really doesn't provide anything interesting beyond it being just another random encounter type monster to throw at your players. There are more than enough "walk forward and attack until one side is dead" monsters in D&D.

I like to think the hyper aggressiveness is what people living in Faerun think Owlbears are like because of poor and badly mishandled research. Also bards like Volo spreading clear misinformation. In fact you could say that about a lot of creatures Toril natives typically fear.

@@meganparrish807 In case you're interested: In original D&D lore, the owlbear was created by ancient wizards to serve as guard dogs using the "Alter Beast" spell, a spell so inhumane (considering the word for "beast" at the time just meant "non-caster" - the humanoid yuan ti for example are implied to also have been created via this spell) that it got banned in-universe by the goddess of magic at the time

And keeps the "rogue" god under close check

​@@BaalFridge he isn't a rogue god as he performed his portfolio tasks very well. BUT he fucked up by letting the dead three dingalings do their thing.

@@kennethsmith5383 well have to admit tho, he was bored, want something amusing, the dead three came, he did know what he doin, and voila they DID spice things up, but well i guess we cant have fun forever lmao. at least im glad he did favor the good decisions over power hungry one, when he observe the party

Personally, if anyone is breaking bread and having a chat with Ao, I'd expect it to be Jergal, no intermediary needed.

@@SophiaAstatine yeah me too, remember how he said "right as always" at the first time they meet. Who is always right? Whoever controls fate = Ao Also I like my headcanon when durge is still dying and shipped to neutoloid, their anger, willpower screams, heard by Ao to give them a chance to choose their own fate for once than being a disgraced puppet despite their effort to be the most faithful to their god. That's why NO ONE allowed to tell durge their identity, because NO ONE MESS WITH AO. Not even bhaal. The last time they messing with him, they are back to mortal again.

that was more kelemvor like philosophy, but, he works well with him, so i guess he did favor some of kelemvor's judgement and work ethics than with myrkul or even cyric

Right? Every time I hear that question, "why did Larian change this..." Probably because they were told to? 😂😂

Nothing was even changed. Since AD&D (the Netheril box set to be specific) he explicitly only appeared in the Naraskr/Locust form in Netheril and in adventures and lore could take on the form of ANY UNDEAD and did/would appear as a old wizard style grandpa (long flowing beard, glint of ancient wisdom in eyes, etc) to adventurers. Or as the sound of a closing book (_insert joke DM throwing DMG at player here_).

I think that was always an element of Gale's personality tbh. He always had that potential to be an arrogant prick basically.

True@@spellandshield

Dead 3 didnt change when they fell, tiamat barely changes (even tho her true body is stuck in the cave in avernus/we fight avatars or corpses of gods she stole and remolded 99% of the time). Jergal likely didnt, its just one of his powers to appear as any type of undead (which is likely also what the Netheril bug form is, a location specific undead form as there is a undead monster in AD&D and 3e that looks a decent bit like his Netherese appearance).

@@spellandshield Yeah, him ascending just magnifies the worst parts about him by 1000%

Thanks

Probably. There was a god of war before Tempus called Targus during the time of Netheril and was CN. When he lost his portfolio of war to Tempus, he became more evil and essentially became the demigod of bloodlust and plunder. So it certainly is powerful.

It wasnt. It was his netherese form. The OG Netheril box set even states so and is likely based on a monster that existed in AD&D lore (and was given full statblock in 3e). Since his very first description, like all other FR gods with part of the death/undeath domain, he can take on the form of any undead creature. As for being interested in player, likely. After all he stepped down from divinity out of boredom.

Well, they do have quite a bit of bug anatomy (2e monster compendium art shows one naked, 3e art with over the pedestal shows maw pincers and chitinous head plate. But yes, a undead spellweaver was one of the forms he could take and would while appearing for residents of netheril specifically.

It wasnt even that, he explicitly got bored (of being the hammy villain) of his position after having done every plot trick and scheme (likely as you say countless times).

@@ANDELE3025 Aye, good point.

Check out the AD&D Monstrous Compendium Volume One on page 105. You might recognize something which if undead-ified might fit the description slightly better (even if the statblock itself mostly focuses just on the chromatic disc before being fully codified in 3e, as it is the annual compendium which were more "monster to slap in and throw at party" packs).

yeah, sounds like withers there. probably invite morena as spectator lmao

That is entirely optional per DM choice with the suggestion being Jergal, as per text itself its just any death deity or otherwise morbidly adjacent character.

Like all death deities, he can manifest/appear as any undead. Be it a undead spellweaver without a orb or undead human with bling similar to Vecnas redesign.

I was hoping Tomb of Annihilation would be mentioned in the video as Withers isn’t entirely too different from that design, and when playing BG3, I assumed the “entity” commanding him was Acererak.

Well, sure, he is one of the oldest gods in Faerun as I said in the beginning.

Ao does not care enough to do something like that.