James, one of the many things I like about you: "This is how I like to do it, but it not necessarily the best way for everyone. There are good reasons to do otherwise too". I really appreciate your approach.

At my age, secondary and back bevels are just complications. I just keep things simple and easy to remember. Put the blade in the jig to the mark, then work it on the diamond stones and the strop.

Thank you James. I’m pretty new to woodworking, but had the same question in my mind about the secondary bevel, so I was really interested to hear your perspective.

You must have been reading my mind. I just acquired a "new" to me plane and it had a back bevel on it. Wondered why. Thanks James!

Very good. I’m not overly happy with my hand sharpening so I’m going to try a back bevel on my plane blades to see if they are sharper. Thanks.

Good info and good non-bias advice. For my not so great daily pounder chisels, I hollow grind to make them faster sharpen.

Great video, James. Simple explanation that all can understand. I sharpen the entire bevel and flatten the backs of my plane irons without secondary bevels. I will occasionally add a secondary bevel to the primary bevel if I am touching up the cutter during use, usually just using the strop. I have used a back bevel on a badly pitted No 7 antique iron for exactly reason you described. It was not possible to flatten the back without removing 1/4” of material to clear the pitting. I was able to achieve excellent sharpness with the back bevel and save a lot of the iron for the future. “Play around with it and have fun”. The very best advice. What ever method produces the results you want are the best methods for you.

After several years of sharpening I can only totally agree with you. Great content James, as usual. Greetings from Italy! ✌️

Great video. Just to give recognition where it is due the back bevel with ruler on a plane iron was the invention of David Charlesworth not that long ago (1970s or 1980s). He has some videos so check him out.

Thanks so much for this. You answered the two major “Whys?” I’ve had about sharpening. It has been confusing, but not any more. Thanks for the clarification.

After watching a few of your videos I really must say thank you for sharing your knowledge! This is one of the best woodworking channels out there! I'm learning a lot.

Great video I have been a power tool woodworker for 40 years just getting in to hand woodworking now about 3 years and it's definitely a skill and I enjoy it better love you video thanks

Thanks James for making sharpening more understandable.

I've been looking for ages for this information and it's all perfectly and concisely here. I really appreciate this video, thank you so much!

Thanks for unwinding this topic. Great explanations across the board.

My plane blades were getting good edges before I tried the back bevel, but I was unintentionally getting a steep camber, so when I back bevel, it helps to straighten out my wobbly sharpening.

i do free hand sharpening for edges, and use a CBD wheel for any major dressing, repair or bevel establishment. Generally, I avoid back bevels, because i hate to worry about re-establishing a flat back.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I really appreciate your hard work 👍

An instructional video as usual. Thanks for that. I am finding I am fond of the Veritas blades because they are thicker than the old blades so even in cheaper planes or older planes the performance is greatly increased and chatter is pretty much eliminated. Also I find that since the blades are thicker it is much easier to find the bevel and hold it. I am selling off my power sharpening stuff and will get the diamond plates that you and Rob and Paul are both fond of using. There is a reason that "old school" never really went away. I am going back to that myself. As well, there is a certain satisfaction to learning a new skill that does not need fancy expensive machinery to do the work for you. As long as the damn thing is sharp I am happy.

Good explanation, my questions on these subjects have been convincingly answered.

Just an excellent video, James. Clear explanation of darn near every aspect of sharpening anyone needs. One teensy, tiny thing, though. I know you "talk with your hands." Man you scare the crap out of me watching your hands flying around while holding that chisel or plane blade. LOL! I swear one day you are gonna clip a finger. Haha. No worries, my man. Absolutely love your clear way of explaining everything.

Fantastic tips, James! Thanks a lot! 😃 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

Nicely explained. Thank you.

Hi James, the reason I looked at this video was I was hoping you would address changing the angle of attack to handle tear out on bevel down planes

EXCELLENT, James. You cleared up a lot of mysteries!

I'm not that experienced but usually all the tricks and tips and 'innovations' in sharpening come from those with access to powered machines or from people whose hand tool working are influenced by machine working. For those folks they do work. For me, I just like a single bevel and a flatish back. I use a guide and I no longer feel a pressure to freehand because sticking my tool in at one bevel is just a single extra step. That said, I probably do end up with a minute secondary bevel after stropping but let's ignore that and just call it a polished edge. Find out what works best for you as the import thing is flatish and sharp. Ps it's hard enough to keep those 1/8" chisels square without then redoing it on 2nd and 3rd bevels.

I can do both full convex and secondary bevel. The full convex is a bit sturdier but harder to find the cutting edge during the sharpening without increasing the cutting angle. The micro secondary can be done on an oil stone in a few strokes. The additional space behind the primary also makes it easier to chop a mortise (but less durable). Back bevels I only use on flat blades with backs beyond the ability to be flattened effectively. It also only works on perfectly flat blades or relatively un-cambered (width wise) sections. It's not a good idea once you have figured out what you are doing, because it creates other issues.

Thank you.

God, I love this dude's attitude!

Great video James.

Great video!

Lol heard ya say plane boy. Great videos. I spent 3 hours today taking a 2mm different out of a no.4 plane with a 400g diamond card. Posture is important. You must be an expert at counting to 20

This is Really a Good Video Explaining Secondary Bevels. Thanks for Your Time! What is missing from the secondary discussion is honing and stropping. It is impossible to strop a secondary bevel. I hate sharpening and therefore prefer to stay away from stones and stop a couple times a day rather than put the blade into a jig and hit the stones. Also what is missing from the back bevel discussion is the fact that most new and modern plane blades are reasonably flat and can be easily flattened with a few dozen strokes on the stones, so a back bevel is unnecessary as a shortcut to flattening. The back bevel also suffers from the same problem of stropping above. Thanks again. You are the Best.

Rob Cosman has made the back bevel method popular on youtube, but I think David Charlesworth originated it.

yeeeeeep, I always do a quaternary bevel,... that way 'm not spendin' all day on my trinary bevel

Well done.

a secondary bevel help moved cuts out of the way quickly like when you are doing mortises I have always sharpened my chisels this way if you take a closer look you will see it thickens your chisel hence extra strength I suppose the difference is in which way you was trained .

I am a wood carpenter specialist here in the Philippines for 30 years this is my occupation. One things I should share with you is about the quenching methods of bevels and edges of chisel and any others sharp tools equipments in relation as wood carpenters observer. Here in the Philippines we common used for quenching methods, we went to the blacksmith by heating the bevels and edges the allowance of 2 inches from tip of the edges then wipe the bar soap of clothes, back to back horizontal direction then put it again into the fire just for 5 minutes then submerge the edges and bevel gradually into water the white line it's appear and this well done as a good result for quenching methods by manual. The objective is to straightening the bevel and edges sharp when you use it at work it will prolong period of time while you working.

I do what amounts to polishing the back bevel but I try not to grind it. You will eventually face the same issue with a back bevel that you do with a secondary bevel.

I actually get a little chuckle when long-time woodworkers disagree and swear that their method is the best. It's great to be able to see the different methods, and the pros and cons of each. This is something that the old-timey woodworkers did not have access to when they were learning.

I was trying to sharpen a plane iron with one 25 degree bevel (with a honing jig) and it was shiny as heck along the entire width of the bevel (and marking the bevel with a sharpie I could see all the sharpie marks go away during the sharpening) but the performance of the plane just didn't seem right. Also, I never seemed to get the "burr" while I was doing the sharpening, which bothered me. Last night I tried putting a 30 degree 2nd bevel on it - after the first grit of sandpaper I *immediately* felt the burr. I went up through all the grits (which didn't take long) and put the iron back in the plane (a # 5 1/2) and the difference was immediately noticeable. I'm not really sure what I actually did during the sharpening process, but it really helped.

Great discussion James, thanks for presenting it. I'm a huge proponent of the Charlesworth ruler trick, which Rob Cosman dutifully credits to David Charlesworth on a regular basis. Why the secondary bevel works for me, I think, is that it's easy to find the main bevel and then just lift the iron up a tiny bit to create the secondary bevel. I don't mind having to regrind a main bevel time-to-time since I'm retired and I enjoy sharpening. It's kind of a zen this for this old guy.

True!🙂🙂

Great information. I have one problem. I can't get plane iron sharp enough to shave any hair. Oh it will plane all right but I feel forward resistance as I'm planning. Here's my method; I use an electric grinder for putting on the primary bevel. This will put a Hollow Grind creating a burr on the edge of the plane iron. I then remove the Burr. Bear in mind that I have pre polished the underside of the iron about a half inch back from the front edge to remove scratches and to make it flat . Then I use a honing guide 2 hone the front edge until it creates a burr after which I use David Charlesworth's ruler trick to remove that burr. You would think The Edge would be sharp enough to remove hair but it won't. This is mind-boggling. Your thoughts please

Nice one. There's not enough people who explain things properly like this, and let you know there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think I'll keep the back bevel/ruler idea in the back of my mind for the next time I find a blade that's not totally flat at the back. When I get an old vintage plane and it has a secondary bevel I usually just bite the bullet and get rid of it straight away, and I usually curse the previous owner a lot when it's one of those really old, thick, blades! But one of the things that annoys me the most is when I'm sharpening a spokeshave blade and it digs into the stone and flips over. I think I've created a few new curse words when this happens..

On the plane blade, I don't see the angle of the cut changing with the back bevel. I definitely see the angle is steeper with a secondary bevel on a chisel. I don't use a secondary bevel for my chisels but I do use a back bevel on the plane irons. My planes are vintage and the back bevel does make the cuts cleaner.

Isn't one of the reasons you might want to increase the bevel and attack angle, is to reduce tearout on figured or interlocking grain woods?

See I've thought about a back bevel or a secondary bevel would be worth it in the long for me, and I've always voted against it for one reason or another. I do hand sharpening for everything, except my turning chisels, and it took awhile to stop getting a rounded bevel but at the same time while doing the back of my plane iron or chisel I would unintentionally put in a back bevel so that kind of made up for my blundering with the primary bevel. So I bought a honing guide then it got messed up so I'm looking into a new one, but I would have to say I dont like them myself not because of the extra step or the extra time but because on my planes I like to easily move across the wood and any extra effort I dont have to put in makes me happier, and with my chisels I generally use them for mortise and tenon work or for bringing something down to the same flatness as the rest of the piece or for blending when fixing drawers or the like. This video was very informative as to why both of these methods are popular among woodworkers and what the benefits are or aren't.

Excellent explanation. I just got into hand tool woodworking and have some Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes that I haven’t gotten up the courage to try sharpening, yet. Those planes have thick A-2 and even more exotic steels that I imagine would take forever to hand sharpen the entire bevel. I note that you use antique blades, which are much softer carbon steel. Would your procedure be different with the ne hard steels?

Um... did I imagine things or is there a Barbie doll on your bench? Oh and thanks for the video. The purpose of other bevels has been on my mind as of late.

Odd question... what was Barbie doing in the video... 😳🤣

Think I might have made a quad-bevel! If only I didn't wobble so much when sharpening. LOL. Must be something to do with belly mass movement forward and back when rocking. Oh, well back to the diet I guess. LOL.

Years ago, I read that a back bevel can be used to raise the effective angle of attack which then makes the plane harder to push but has the benefit of reducing tearout on gnarly wood. As if you had a plane with a higher frog angle. I guess that has fallen somewhat of favor with the advent of bevel up planes. Just buy a new plane and a couple of blades rather than just a new blade.

Great video. I’ve just gotten into doing it freehand and I love the slight camber I get on the blade. Feels much nicer than a honing guide bevel. Lots in here I didn’t know ie back bevels. Thanks. Love the channel!

Yes #216!!!

It seems that a 30 degree bevel would be useful on mortising chisels and 25 degree on others. What are your thoughts?

Tertiary bevels.....interesting!

Why does it take less time to grind a small surface (the secondary bevel) than a large one (the primary bevel)? They both are in full contact with the surface during the grinding process. I assume it's because the downward pressure (PSI) is higher on the smaller surface. So does it make sense to try and apply as much pressure as you can when grinding the primary in order to speed things up?

You don't have to be a hybrid worker to grind effectively. Hand cranked grinders work well too.

can I put a back bevel on a bevel up Jack plane？

I completely agree with your approach to sharpening.

james i am very impressed by this video!! i admire and watch alot of youtube woodworkers as i know you do. as such my personal approach is a crazy frankenstein of all of them, youself included. i admire and respect guys like you, paul sellers, rex kruger and particularily by rob cosman. i have a ton of respect for him and i am inspired, as a disabled person with chronic pain, by his PHP "charity" for combat wounded and ptsd. i would urge everyone to check that out. one of the things i appreciate about you is your integrity and honesty on videos like this one. i love that even though you don't use some of these techniqes yourself, you give a complete description of them and a fair analysis. personally i like to grind my tools on a cbn wheel to obtain my initial angle. and i agree that the time saved is a wash but this way, when im working on a project sharpening doesnt interupt my work flow because i can touch up my edge in a matter of sectonds. i also love how the charesworth ruler trick lets you avoid hours of initial flattening on the back. this was probably my favorite video you have done so far. great work man and thank you for your willingess and ability to share your knowledge with us puny mortals. i am proud to be a patron!

I must be weird... I use a secondary bevel only to hone. I will remove the previous secondary bevel every time I sharpen on the cheaper lower grit stone(s). This saves the wear on the more expensive honing stone 🙃.

Another reason for the "ruler trick" is when flattening the back of the plane iron prior to sharpening. By using the ruler you only have to flatten the very end of the iron, not the whole iron.

any technique that reliably produces a suitable cutting edge with a reasonable amount of effort is a good technique..."suitable" and "reasonable" being the operative words. An edge that would work well for paring dovetails on the drawers in a jewelry chest would be inappropriate for a felling axe (and vice versa).

Nice informative video! Never thought about the fact that you eventually have to «pay back» the gained time from a secondary bevel. I’m wondering about low angle bevel up planes and back bevels. Wouldn’t that be as bad as a back bevel on a chisel?

Useful video, but you wave around the plane iron with the chipbreaker on it and talk about the "back bevel on the chisel"... ?!

Third.

Rob Cosman actually puts "tertiary" bevel on its blade ;-) The reason I put a secondary bevel on is because it is faster to sharpen just the tip of the blade when you're working on you project and need a sharper tool. I usually regrind the primary bevel in between project and thus the time spend to regrind it doesn't interfere with the project flow. But as you said everyone should do what works for them.

I like using a secondary bevel because I only need to use the finest stone to maintain the edge for ages, there’s no reason to use anything coarse to move more metal unless the secondary gets too fat, and because I’m using only the fine grit that takes forever to move the edge. I think where people go wrong on secondary bevels is when they go all the way down to a 300 grit diamond on the secondary every time they touch up the edge, so they take off way too much metal and the secondary turns into a steeper primary. At the end of the day though, people do way too much cargo-culting and obsessing over sharpening techniques. The truth is that getting exact angles and geometries matters a lot less that people think, all that really matters is getting the edge straight and sharp at a reasonable angle and making sure the closest facets to the edge on either side are polished smooth.

Length of time to grind away a secondary bevel between sharpenings must be years as you're talking about sharpening away 1/4 inch or more of chisel or plane blade

What happened to the Barbie doll?

You can't handle the truth! :D

Do we want to know why Barbie is doing a Hawaiian dance in the background? I know; don't ask, don't tell!

you shoul have written one bevel wont cut it :)

Lol a secondary back bevel 🤣

FYI, the David Charlesworth rule trick is never mean to put a back bevel on plane iron. It meant to reduce the prep time because you don't really need to flatten the whole back of the plane blade. You just need to prep the edge. Also, the rule trick is mean to be used on the final grit stone of your sharpening to remove the burr after the initial prep. The angle is insignificant to be make any difference. The real purpose for the back bevel on the iron is to increase the angle of attack for difficult grain wood, so that you don't need to change the frog of your plane and the angle is usually much higher than what the rule trick will provide you.

I do a back bevel on my bevel up plane and avoid the secondary bevel to avoid increasing the cutting angle, and it increases the durability a little from it being less of a point but still the same angle. Japanese planes from Lee Valley use the same sharpening method.

A grinder is really worth the investment for a hand tool person. I agree with your sharpening style and try not to grind too often but man it’s nice to be able to reset at the grinder.

As you mentioned Rob Cosman, his latest sharpening"trick" is not just secondary, but TERTIARY bevel. It seems he's going over the top, trying to be unique. He also spends 10 mins resharpening planes & chisels before every use (annoying in his videos as he's repeating the same sharpening action on film instead of getting on with his 3.5 min dovetail ... Now 13.5 mins)

Secondary bevels are for people who open paint cans with their chisels. 😂

First, thanks for your videos. Credit for the "ruler trick" should properly go to David Charlesworth, an English furniture-maker and teacher how introduced it 'over there" some 30 years ago. While using the ruler trick technically puts on a back bevel, it certainly isn't a functional back bevel. ( about .3 degrees measured with some machinist's tools). It's function is to help insure the back is polished right up to the intersection with the face, this being more important than the VERY minor bevel it produces on the back, and as you pointed out it isn't advocated for chisels.

Paul Sellers will hammer his iron to fix a bad cup or high edge on the back. It might be in a Q&A video.

I think you got it wrong with the back bevel on a plane blade saying you dont want to take to much off as the chip breaker will then have to be positioned farther up the blade as you cant place it on a bevel. You then go and contradict your self and say the other reason for a back bevel is so you dont have to flatten the entire back of the iron. As the chip breaker needs to be perfectly mated to the iron without any gaps you clearly would have to put the chip breaker onto the nice perfectly flat back bevel. I think Rob usually recommends a back bevel primarily for the fact you dont need to flatten the back of the iron, not so much because it is any easier to sharpen which I dont think it is and have never even heard of that.

There are 1000000 ways to sharpen a blade. Some blades are absolutely a "right" vs "wrong" (clipper blades, convex hairdressing shears, specialty tools). But there is certainly a wrong way for all tools.. if it don't cut ... It was done wrong.