Everytime I feel like reinstalling WoW, I remind myself to go watch Asmongold's latest video covering WoW and I start making good choices again

"I think that there's also a huge correlation between the game being fun to play and people playing the game." That this needed to be voiced tells all.

25% actual boss encounter time, 47 mandatory apps required to effectively raid and then good luck finding a group of folks that raid when you're available.

I've been playing wow on/off for .. 13/14 years, everytime I took a break it would take ~6-12 months until I got that itch again. It's been 2 years and the itch is like a blistering wound I don't want to touch and I just cover up. I played for 3 days to hit max level during Shadowlands release and then just went "What even is this? This isn't fun, I'm just wasting my time for a world that doesn't feel like the one I love." and logged off before even seeing the raid

Rock bottom? Just you wait when it hit's earth's core

in germany, there is this saying "schlimmer geht immer", which roughly translates to "worse is always possible" with blizzard, i am convinced they can go much lower still. simply because of their design philosophies and being clueless about whats actually fun to players.

The only thing I'm scared is, that the problems are rooted so deep, that if they want to change they'll need to work on the game from the ground up or basically do WoW 2.

It s funy how everyone, including Asmon, is considering a mmo beeing nothing else than a raiding game, a raiding simulator, like no other content is important and the quality of a mmo is only related with the quality of clearing bosses. It s also sad that most new players from today don t know that there can be a different content or game play in a game, other than farming and pumping against bosses. We also take for granted a lot of amazing development into the immersion side of a game (story/world/characters design/ music or fun systems, that do not add to character progression).

I was raiding when I literally had nothing better to do in my life. Now I have a family, an actual job, other hobbies... there is no way in hell I can ever waste time raiding ever again.

My biggest thing is for such an expansive universe it feels like there's no imagination...

I don’t raid because you need to have an achievement you get from doing the raid to get in the group. Or have an ilvl so high, that what ever mode you’re trying to do doesn’t actually drop gear that’s an upgrade.

GW2 is so slept on. its such a great game with no sub fees

The closest thing you can compare WoW raids to in FF14 are the Alliance Raids. But even then, FF does it better. Once you kill things, they're dead for the duration (trash doesn't respawn at all), and there are shortcuts positioned just after the most recent boss you defeated. If WoW could adopt just those two things, raiding would be less of a slog.

I think one of the major differences between Classic and retail is the story. Vanilla, TBC and Wrath were all parts of the same story arc, you started in vanilla fighting evils that were basically the lower lieutenants of Arthas, then in TBC we got to middle management, and in Wrath we got to Arthas himself. There was a greater story arc we were working through. From what I've seen, since Cata it's been short discombobulated stories. Here's a new baddie that comes from "random place" and interacts with factions leaders. New xpac, new random bosses. The overall story arc is lost and you just play through the xpac to get to the next. As I see it: Classic = You're part of the story, Retail = You play through the game to get to the next xpac, story is secondary, possibly even tertiary.

At some point, Trash was as difficult and challenging as bosses. Trash was part of the raid. But with more random loot it drops,

Raids should just have 1 or 2 trash packs before a boss that teaches you a mechanic. You don't lose your food buff when you die. When you die you spawn just outside the boss room. Each difficulty of a raid boss should either include a new mechanic or just buff damage. I think crafting should be a bigger part wow and use portions of each zone as a Timeless Isle(TI). So have 2 zones have TI one being a beginner ilvl and another zone be a harder difficulty. Do this throughout the expansion adding more difficulties that rotate between zones every 2days- 1 week. Have gear have upgrades so for example 200ilvl normal dungeon gear 210ilvl Heroic dungeon 220ilvl Normal Raid 230ilvl Heroic Raid 240ilvl Mythic Raid Each upgrade increases ilvl by 5. So normal would need 6 upgrades to reach heroic raid ilvl, Heroic Dungeon would need 4, Normal Raid need 2, Heroic Raid we will give one upgrade maybe, and Mythic is just best gear. So upgrades can only hit Heroic ilvl. But getting the materials takes time and can get in any content. Make the world be better, crafting important, people can do whatever content they want, more alt friendly, etc.

I somewhat really miss Legion. I spent hours on Legion and I loved every second of it.

I'm a collector player. I play WoW to collect mounts mostly. The minute-to-hour gameplay is usually me using flightpaths or auto-flying to my next stop. If they added a teleport system akin to FFXIV, I would save SO much time each week.

I like having the trash when it is also essentially a puzzle to solve getting to the next boss, but also I agree fully once you get to the boss, checkpoint so at a wipe you just start at the boss, the run back is/was always just annoying and a waste of time.

Lots of great points. I think an under analyzed aspect is the loot aqusition rate per minute of time play investment. Blizz nerfed loot drops. And removed master looter. Raiding is no longer an efficient means to gear up. So if you played the game to raid and gear up, you would realize it's a bad investment and quit.

played this game since 2004 and I took a break during WoD and came back during legion, bfa, and shadowlands. This is the first time I'm really considering quitting for good. Dragonflight and the drathyr are just not enough to get me back anymore. Game is no longer what it used to be and I hope that for all those people addicted to the game that you can make the right choice to let go of that addiction and discover other wonderful games out there. If your struggling you can do it! Life is bigger than WoW

Normal dropped so bad because people can't get into raids. Everyone thinks you should all be professional elite type of players. I have sat for long periods of time trying to get in one. I have played since 2006 and elitism is just getting worse the more they are catered to. Also my server was high pop but they offered free transfers to new low pop servers and my server has suffered tremendously. It is now a lownpop server and can't hardly recruit for guilds..

Having flying taken away and then having hoops to jump through when the expac is more than half over is why I only play the first couple of months of each expansion. I enjoy the leveling up process, experiencing the dungeons and some raids, but when I am then having my time wasted by not having flying and having only ground mounts for the next 9 months, it's unbearable. Having flying taken away is perhaps the dumbest thing Blizzard has ever done, and it coincides with the games decline in the playerbase.

Yea that was my experience with legion, it wasn't alt friendly - but the GAME was fun and provided every spec significant unique progression mechanically and also provided unique stories, transmogs and collectibles. So not alt friendly, but instead alt rewarding.

A few weeks ago I started playing wow again and I'm having so much fun. But the thing is that I don't enjoy doing the current expansion content. I'm playing pretty casually and just farming mounts etc. I would be miserable if I tried to get back on par with other players this late into the expansion.

I really don't think Lost Ark is as big of a factor as Asmon seems to think it is. Player numbers have dropped drastically since the initial launch spike and - atleast from what I've seen - the game doesn't appear to have had a great impact in the west

It's finally over. I can close my eyes and go to sleep.

People just never learn, so many people were excited for Shadowlands (me included) and now everyone's talking about how dogshit it is, and then those same people turn around and go "BuT dRaGoNfLiGhT iS lOoKiNg GoOd ThO" DF is clearly going to be another rushed half baked mess that everyone is going to call dogshit in 2 years, maybe even sooner. wow is dead, sad but true.

In the old days all mmos were mostly about the grind. It was mostly the community and the novelty of being online with lots people that made them appealing when they first came out. Seems like the new model for mmos is to rush to the end and do raids to obtain a sense of virtual materialism to show off dumb items. Thats why FF11 has always been my favorite. It's hard, tedious, and overly complicated for most tasks but it maintains an element of being a rpg before a mmo.

I swear to god belllualar makes a video with this exact title every few months.

I think main reason people don't raid is bc there is just no loot. You spend hours in a raid and come out with 1-2 pieces of loot, which might not even be the things you need. So to get a full set of items, you know you need at least 20-30 runs. Knowing that, people just opt out. So while it taking long is one major factor, the reward is the other side of it.

the problem with alts in my opinion is the meta, because often you HAVE TO reroll when your class / spec is not in the meta like switching champions in lol

The idea of having the raid divided into 3- 4 parts with each having 2-3 bosses and a couple of packs in between like ff14 is the way to go Finishing 1 part a day in 30min to 1 hour was great Not everybody can play 4 hours straight The number of times that we lost our tank or best dps after 2 hours of raiding is uncountable 3 to 8 hours raid is obsolete

Video games as a whole are at rock bottom. Its not just WoW. This is why any new game that releases with any remote hype, blows up instantly, as people are dying to get their hands on something new and fresh, only for player count to crash and burn within days once initial hype has died. Tower of Fantasy is a great recent example of this, people I know with no care for the genre, wanted something new to play so bad, they not only downloaded the game, but pre-installed, only to quit the game within days. Most top streamers right now are playing age old games. The top of stream charts is littered with people playing games that have been around for neigh on 10+ years. The top 4 current games on Twitch for example are 1. League of Legends. 2. Grand Theft Auto V. 3. Valorant. 4. Minecraft.

BiS loot should be puggable and obtained with minimal friction. Pugging isn't just playing alone, if I'm playing with a few friends, we're going to need to pug content. No one wants to pug sepulcher. 99%+ of video game players that could play WoW would be pugging the content. There's no other video game that you play with a set 19 other people of a similar skill level. No clue why Blizzard doesn't optimize for the vast majority of people playing games. There's so much friction in WoW, it's absurd.

Same for me when I log on an alt and I see the long road ahead, I log out and go do something else. It makes me play less instead of make play more.

43:10 "I can't pug anymore, I can't play the game, I have to be in a guild, I don't have time for a guild." FUCKING. THANK YOU. I loved organizing pugs during Wrath. It was uncommited, but still social. You had a couple of players you knew on your friend list and grabbed whoever else was available, and then you did heroic dungeons, the weekly, and minor raids like Archavon, Malygos or Obsidian Sanctum, *and you had fun doing it.* Was it minor league content? Of course it was minor league content! But it was still a social game, and you still got to get the best goddamn minor league gear there was. Where is that kind of contend now? With a dozen different gear ranks within one patch, that kind of gear is basically now worthless now - and you don't even get to pug it, because you have to use the goddamn raid finder to even access the lowest difficulty raid, and normal mode is too hard for pick up groups anyways. Ask me why I'm no longer playing any endgame content.

"i think it just sucks" thats the punishment for losing, you have to waste your time for the chance to try again. the main attraction of an mmo is supposed to be the world, not raiding

If every trash you killed increased the % of loot quantity and or quality or in some way advantaged you while in dungeons/raids it would be beneficial and encourage groups to clear instead of skipping where possible. Groups would be incentivised to completely clear the dungeon/raid

There is simply no reason to play it. They completely destroyed 20 years of lore buildup just like that, which kept people engaged. It's irrecoverable.

Trash is inherently required to make a raid experience. The problem is that it needs to be designed better. People would hate raids if they were just boss rushes because the concept of the raid doesn't get a chance to be fully fleshed out. Dungeons need soldiers/minions....bosses need underlings that serve them. A giant castle with empty halls except rooms with bosses feels artificial and fantasy breaking. What needs to happen is an overhaul to the approach towards trash. Give them more of a realistic existence within the context of the raid. Don't simply line the halls with people standing there waiting to be engaged. Have an entire experience playing out that presents itself to the raiders. Have the soldiers/minions actually doing different things within the raid. Have actual encounters designed around spaces and what the minions are literally doing in that space before we arrived. Not just having them stand there lifelessly. This type of overhaul would vastly improve the player experience and turn trash into what it was meant to be. The battles leading up to the final encounter. The stakes slowly being raised. The weight of boss encounter having value added in anticipation.

Castle Nathria raid was best for the season/expansion cause the trash mobs dropped BoEs like candy.. the amount of BoE farms anytime Fated CN is around compared to other raids is huge.. never mind the buffs you can get and the minibosses that have like one mechanic to work with.

i remember progressing on heroic guldan in nighthold and the regroup time was so exhausting i simply just quit that night

Are we still reducing MMORPGs down to just raiding and nothing else? Incredible.

Wow is like 10+ years behind all mmos, all the mmos copied wow have gone ahead of wow and wow is still stuck in past struggling with trash/food buffs/travel stuff lol

Honestly I miss the tokens from WotLK. I felt like even if I didn't get a gear drop I still had the backup of buying a good piece from the vendor.

Imagine a positive Bellular video. 9.2.7 is possibly the best patch I've ever played. Not sure why we are still complaining about 9.2.5 when we have 9.2.7. A new roster of Mythic+ dungeons. All 3 raids open. Creation Catalyst allowing for easy tier set. Account wide currencies making playing alts super easy. All covenants completely unlocked. All conduits available at maximum item level. No need to upgrade legendaries past last patch's item level. Deterministic bad luck protection in raid loot. No Valor cap. For once Blizzard actually listened and made good changes, which look to be continuing into Dragonflight. The amount of transparancy and feedback on the Dragonflight talents is extremely refreshing. In Shadowlands Alpha / Beta the community was very vocal about the issues with the Covenant and Soulbind systems, but Blizzard didn't listen. They kept it as they wanted, never said they would change it. "Meaningful Choice" remember? On the contrary, in this Alpha they are actively listening and making changes to the new talent trees. Blizzard seem to have gotten rid of the stance that they know best and are letting the community tell them what we want.

Weren't the remaining raiders saying that we shouldn't be worried about the Slime Cat because Normal raiding is so very easy?

When creating your character you should have an option to create a “family crest” that’s personal to you and all of these grinding aspects would be shared among your family crest which you could apply to your alts.

I've remained a dedicated WoW fan since launch. A few family members are in the business. I've listened to a monumental amount of educated gamers opinions and suggestions, rants, raves, and rages. I'm an old person compared to the players today. Needless to say, I enjoy the fantasy mmo landscape. Asmongold - you are by far the most interesting and educated gamer I've listened to, to-date. My impression is you do this with a great amount of compassion for like-minded listeners. I especially enjoy that your Mom enjoyed gaming. I agree that Blizzard is killing WoW. So much that I've decided to unsub and uninstall. I've never reached this point before. Blizzard is wasting our time and taking the subscriber for granted. I'll continue to listen to your commentaries and enjoy them with much enthusiasm. Game on :)

Controversial opinion; A well designed game doesn't always equal a fun game. You'll make yourself miserable if you forget to enjoy little things.

I am literally not raiding or playing mythic plus because the thought of farming rep for a second legendary to be "meta enough" just fucks me up so badly... Unlocked flying everywhere a few weeks ago and stopped again to hope for changes in dragonflight (coping hard)

Have solo, duo, trio, 4 man, 5 man, 10 man, and 20 man dungeons that any player can solo but difficulty and 'trash' mods increase as more players are added into the group. And find a way to balance. Also with group dungeons/raids have a chest that drops and gives loot separate per player so each person gets a chance to get their own loot or 'tier gear'

The one question that should be answered: Why did so many people have fun - even made it their primary thing in the game - to play and gear and skill alts. Because nowadays EVERYTHING is so openly "a waste of time". My theory: because "getting gear" and "leveling crafting" is as abstract as the system should be.

Would love to see a cut down / bite size version of these vids

I dont think raid numbers are a very good indicator of general player population. The reasons people stop raiding, or raiders quit isn't the same reasons a casual player would quit. If 50% of raiders stop raiding (Which is only like 10% of the player base, and thats a high-end estimate) I dont think the reason theyd quit are very compatible with the general populace. There are more mount farmers then there are raiders, and mount farmers don't care about things like conduit energy.

Corruptions were one of the main reasons I quit BFA and ofc Classic release. I remember raiding Mythic as a spriest and I was missing a few bis corruptions such as (Chorus of Insanity) and no matter how sweaty I played I could not out perform the other spriest/dps in my guild with similar gear but all the better corruptions…really ruined my urge to compete

The problem with raiding is that mechanics have got significantly harder over the years, this is due to different difficulty levels. They designed tougher mechanics so that those could be scaled up in the higher difficulty levels, and unfortunately most people suck at some of the simplest mechanics. Mythic raiding and its mechanics should be completely disconnected mechanically from the other raid tiers.

I find it hard to comprehend how anything could dig lower than the pit pandaria exists in

A lot of players are moving from raid to dungeons, there’s a reason blizzard is doing Esports on these and is the only mmo doing competitions on clearing dungeons. There’s a reason why not everyone reaches KSM, is challenging and is not so time consuming compared to raiding. People gotta stop thinking raiding is the only challenge in WOW. If you push keys you will know there’s a big skill gap. People will be like “oh M+ Dungeons IO doesn’t MATTER, it doesn’t say anything about your skill”, well I don’t want to waste 2 hours waiting for everyone to learn a single mechanic, at least in M+ dungeons if you are high tier player you can easily carry the key and that’s why raiding is declining because people get tired of spending months wiping and not completing the raid.

So as an accidental experiment, I boosted a resto shaman to 60, bought all 233 gear and a green weapon from Zereth Mortis (agi based staff... oops) and took to healing M+ straight away without thinking about conduits and soulbinds, so zero borrowed power. I had trouble healing up to when I had 273 item level (yes, I eventually replaced the agi staff with an int one). For reference, this was during Fort, Burst, Storm, and shroud week. I was able to get through +14s, but I was really really struggling, even with pretty decently geared tanks. After realizing I had zero conduits and soulbinds, I am now healing +18s a day afterwards and practically falling asleep in dungeons because it is so much easier. Make your own conclusions, but I believe that borrowed power has no place in the game apart from the gear that you earn by running through content.

Legion was wayyy more alt-friendly due to the fact that you had different quests/lvling options. Shadowlands has the same daily's and you can't queue for different dungeons after a certain ilvl. it's terrible that they don't let you just Play the way you want to.

I don’t mind the time commitment for raid. Nor do i mind the one shot mechanics. What killed raiding in Shadowlands for me was going multiple weeks doing all of the above and not getting a single piece of gear. Makes you question the time commitment

Be in an efficient guild maybe? We cleared all heroic fated with 21 ppl in just over 2 hours longest raid night. 15 min and 10 min break included.

I played every day from the end of BC to mid Cata. I’ve come back for the start of every expansion to see if it’s good. I’ve always kept up with the content as it comes out. Nothing has hit that WoTLK feeling. Everything about it was perfect. The things I liked about Wrath have disappeared completely in most cases from the current game.

Blizzard's really setting new records! So proud of em!

I'm pretty sure 10.0.1 is gonna be called "Below Rock Bottom"

I was a WOW lifer but he is right it gets boring fast. I totally started getting raid burn out after LK it all went to hell in Cata and I was done in during Pandaland. Then I became casual paid my sub yearly to show my support and that all ended last year. I was still waiting for housing also 😆

Hands down, the biggest detriment to me when raiding is time. I simply cannot devote the time to raiding WoW. So, I started savage raiding. We raid 2 or 3 times a week, an hour to an hour and a half. Because there is no trash, and the only prep is food (easily acquired once from a whole tier) and materia. Materia can be done any time and only changes with gear upgrades. We’ve even had impromptu raids where the 8 of us were playing and did some progress in the morning on 5 minutes notice. I can’t play WoW, pure and simple.

I'm glad Asmon's here to play the game for us. Thanks Zach.

I have no intentions of playing Dragonflight because of the continued existence of LFD, LFR, Mythics and Mythic keys. The game scales from /follow afk jerking off to needing a Ph.D. I don't like either. ANd normal/flex/heroic feels compeltely pointless because you know your gear isn't optimal for keys which is considered part of the endgame that is mandatory in many cases that can't even be beaten. Here's what you need: Beatable content. 2 difficulties, Normal and Heroic that is within reasonable difficulties. Bring back the need to socialize in an MMO. TBC, Wrath and T11/T12 Cataclysm difficulties and content availability was perfect, and introduce at least 1 new BG and arena per expansion with a PvE gear overlap parallel to TBC/Wrath - very useful but not mandatory to reach 2k+ How is that a difficult concept? What is the point of re invention the wheel?

Eternal Palace was super low since it collided with WoW Classic launch :)

I quit in 9.1, and thinking about it now it's crazy to me that people are still running around in the maw. God I hated this expansion, and it's so satisfying to know that I didn't waste my time sitting around waiting for it to get better.

I played this game non stop from when it came out until pandaria came out and quit, the trash mobs used to be a big part of everything and even by the time I quit they seemed like an afterthought. It used to be fun figuring out how to crowd control and things like that but it became the tank pulling as much as possible and then an AOE fest over and over. That's part of what killed raiding for me even that long ago.

An interesting metric is half those parses are Laty and Prefox

I like how he complains about trash but his room is full of it.

All raids should have a Stake of Marika before each boss. That was a fantastic QoL feature in elden ring

As a FFXIV player, my perspective of WoW is from Asmon’s opinion. What do majority of WoW players’ opinions on trash mobs in boss prog? Is what Asmon saying the reality of general WoW players’ belief?

I can relate to your mum. I was the same; played in Vanilla, and introduced two of my sons to the game around Wrath (they were too young before that; my eldest wasn't interested). I also raided heavily in Wrath and then again in Panda (Cata I went back to university so no time but my guild did it with said sons). One of the sons got disgusted with the culture well before it was newsworthy and quit, never to return. The other was actually a brilliant PvPer, during Panda actually topped our server in stats. He quit during Legion because the time sink was affecting his work too much; he couldn't do both, literally. I unsubbed my "kids account" then. I unsubbed my third account (altaholic here) with the "OMG flying again, eff that" as your mum did. I finally let go of my main account and disbanded my guild when Blizz kept Kotick on, by that time I was only playing a couple of hours a week anyhow so what was the point. My main MMO is ESO, now, but for the most part I just hang around in SP games because replaying CoD or Skyrim or building hospitals and universities in Two-Point County are more rewarding for my dopamine hits than grinding that bloody emerald dragonling pet in the original swamp of sorrows. or having to "learn to fly" yet again. At the same time, a friend who played in beta, but hadn't played for ages, had joined in Legion but never managed to get flying in anything quit, because even with the level splats it just wasn't new player friendly and she got tired of having me taxi her around. I will never go back to WoW, even if Microsoft clean them up. And our family sank thousands of dollars into them over the years.

i've played since classic and loved everything until shadowlands... yes even B.F.A. was fun because it was the 1st time i was actually interested in mythic plus dungeons which also helped with my get good raid gear leading me into the beginning of Mythic with my guild but we didnt clear mythic raids completely. it was my highest hi point but when they removed one skill from my class so i flipped my nuggets and tried to give shadowlands a chance but it was ultimately dissapointing so i left. waiting for ashes of creation then also throne and liberty.

I think Destiny 2’s raid encounters are good. The time between wiping and starting the encounter again is probably around 30 seconds, maybe even 10 seconds if you just jump right back in

I am sorry ... I know I will get heat for this but I cannot stand Bellular. I have never seen someone get such a hard on from WoW's decline. Over and over again. Ugh. I don't even care about why WoW is in decline. I don't care if it is true, false or in-between. I am just bitching because I can't stand that dude. Thank you that is all.

Reason I left is the same as Asmon's mom. There is no point in unlocking flying unless it's day one. Also, making the water stryder not walking on rider without an enhancement you don't get until later may be different now, but I didn't get the thing in the mail until I hit BFA level. I worked hard for that mount, and I deserve to have both water walking and a slot to put the don't get dazed thing or whatever. I'll take need to unlock flying by doing the story in each zone and clearing the map because dailies and other grinning is awful when travel time is screwed.

I think it says more about people wanting to be part of guilds. My guild got AOTC each tier but we wouldn’t be in those statistics because we had to invite pugs.

Retail is antisocial, you can't make friends, no one talks, Classic is more social, players create community on the server, guilds maintain population for the same reason...friends, is all about the social aspect so traditional mmorpg players will pick BC over Shadowlands and even more will do it with Wotlk.

These videos are hilarious.. People who dont play the game would think that problem of retail is the raiding content... while it sucks almost in all aspects lol

I loved to Raid back in TBC and WOTLK but that was a different time. Just thinking or hearing about how long raids go on these days make them very unatractive to me currently because i cant and if i could i dont want to spend so much time. The whole "Raid Idea" needs to be modernized somehow. It should still feel like a big dungeon where the big baddies reside but the game should also respect your time. I think a little mini Event before each Boss would totally be enough so it does not become a boss rush but still picks up the pacing. Also these Events could basically entail EVERYTHING. From Mini Games - Some sort of Tower defence. Running away from a fire wall whatever comes to mind.

Peepeepoopoo in the damage meter bar about the 23 mark lol

Yeah. Imagine less people playing at the end of an expansion. That's never happened before, has it? /sarcasm

Gotta remember that Castle Nathria had BiS legendaries for a lot of classes, and they were unobtainable outside of raids.

I just quit wow a month ago and my mental health has been so good and I’m even feeling better physically, this game has reached a point that is an infectious leech on your life and a waste of time.

Reminds me of that diablo immortal boss that me and a friend almost killed, but a rando warrior came, got caught in its life steal attack and it healed from 10% to 60% hp instantly 😀

years ago I tried a Molten Core raid that If I recall correctly was 40 person and that took soooo damn long even with a crew I had gamed with for years in SWG. That was my last raid in WOIW and I quit the game a month or so later after coming to the conclusion I had no time for the raiding treadmill.

I think it would be good to mention that in retail you also have m+ as endgame which takes away lots of players from the raids.

you can't complain about trash if you've never cleared to C'thun

I loved raiding in Legion but I raided only twice in BFA and not a single time in SL.

I remember when I played Everquest 1, people would pay our guild leader to clear all of the trash between the start to the boss all the time.

It feels like everyone is passing time enjoying classic until dragon flight

at this point my issue with raiding is that the gear is just outclassed and less useful than what you get out of m+. maybe if the raids dropped upgradeable loot in the same bounds as m+ that'd be something. really i think raiding and mythic plus need to be more integrated or more separate because right now they feel like they're competing for the same audience and the pacing and rewards of m+ are just BETTER.

A lot of WoW players are like Yu-Gi-Oh players where they're stuck in a bad situation and only defend it because they don't know anything else.