“My favorite bullet [brand/product line/weight] for caliber X is…” Assume whitetail deer at 400 yards and in. 6.5 Creedmoor 6.5 PRC 270 Winchester 6.8 Western 7mm-08 7mm PRC 308 Win 30-06 300 PRC Does that cover the important bases? I’d be most interested in hearing Ryan’s casual but so well considered WHY for his choices. That young man does not make uninformed decisions.

Yes please!

Agree 1000% , really enjoy Ryan’s take on hunting bullets and reloading!

He's a little soft and uses words like cute ect. Other than that he has some knowledge that is useful. Definitely couldn't listen "all day".

@@earl-tf4qc yeah, you are right. All day probably a little strong, would probably find my limit around 7hrs!! Whatever words like “cute” you’ve heard him say that you aren’t a fan of… I challenge you to find me another phrase on KZfaq anywhere that tops “…and that [insert any wild game] folded like a $5 tent..” , one doesn’t exist!!!

I hunt elk exclusively with a muzzleloader and I use a Barnes saboted fifty-caliber TMZ I have killed over five elk using the barnes ranging from 30 yards to 200 yards and I can honestly say my bullet went completely through the elk and hung up on the hide on the other side every time I think the reason why it doesn't exit is because the mushroom is so substantial it can't poke through the hide on the other side. Once it comes through the animal the hide on the other side has so much elasticity it stretches and the bullet won't tear through because it has mushroomed and is almost flat. And yes most of my bullets I got back where 100% weight retention. I remember one time I had got a bullet back that was missing a couple of pedals because of bone.

@@mountainman9973 That's pretty impressive! This particular shot was a touch over 400 yards with a .300 RUM, and the effect was exactly as you described. Too much surface area to penetrate the opposite side after that massive energy transfer. I'd have to call that pretty ideal.

My state says that u can use expanding bullets to hunt. Do match grade bullets expand? I’ve never used them.

@@CircleBrewery yes, most match bullets expand (tipped match bullets like Sierra TMK and Hornady ELD-M expand really well) The biggest concern (with any bullet but especially with tipped match bullets) is if you get jacket-core separation which is obviously not good. A good general rule of thumb is as long as your impact velocity (impact not muzzle velocity) is below 2400fps a tipped match bullet will perform quite well and they have been shown to expand reliably at velocities as low as 1300fps. Overall they're completely unnecessary if you're hunting at any kind of moderate (or what many will call "ethical" ranges) but they perform wonderfully at longer ranges than most "standard" hunting bullets. The only difference between a Hornady ELD-X and an ELD-M is that the ELD-M has a thinner jacket and will expand "well" at lower velocities than the ELD-X. You push a tipped match bullet too fast and you WILL get jacket-core separation on impact, but at lower velocities they often perform better just because the jacket is thinner and it takes less resistance to cause the bullet to deform.

​@@Kross8761 hornady has a podcast on this also. Without going back and watching it, match bullets don't expand reliably at lower velocities.

I’m one of those in the states that goes for the neck. I don’t like tracking after the shot so it’s a good way to make sure I don’t have to

looking at the 168gr eldm . Have you got much experience with those? Was of my concerns that you mentioned here was taking a closer shot and with the high velocity of the bullet and it blowing up.

KZfaq cut me off there...At "Dyker".To complete I added : ...I've hunted everything from dyker to massive Kudu bulls with a 243 because all I needed to do was break vertebrae/skull and precise accuracy was more important than grunt....

I will add that the caveat to the ELDM always penetrating was that I did consistently see core/jacket separation. One hole in, two going out. It’s again the argument of what an individual wants to see. I typically see animals dying extremely quickly when being shot with ELDM. The exit holes are nearly always tiny, likely from just a piece of core or jacket leaving the animals body. Which means that the energy from the round is being almost completely expended inside that animal. I’m not sure how match ammo would perform on larger game like moose or elk, I’d have to do a lot more texting before I’d feel comfortable using it on larger game than deer or antelope.

Close range shoulder shots on big Sambar deer is lights out -they penetrate. People who say they don't are kidding themselves. Any bullet will go through shoulder on any deer Inc. moose. (from a reasonable cartridge obviously). The problem comes from people aiming for the 'vitals' and expecting instant kills. Then, when they find that they don't always leave a nice blood trail, they decide on needing a passthrough (or they repeat what they've heard others say) The whole 'boiler room' stuff seems pretty stupid in the age of Good scopes and accurate bullets. Just take a High shoulder shot-its a pretty forgiving shot too. (too far forward you are necking it-too low its still lung or maybe heart, and too far back its lung/spine... Just don't go too high😀👍@@BDJans

Hornady will tell you that the front petals peeled off and the base continued on. I’ve seen it many times.

Maybe the guy from long range hunting group chanel.

@@damianwhatever9092 I agree, he is very knowledgeable, but he can be a little... pressing? Idk, sometimes he just seems a little too invested in Match bullets lol - and I use match bullets too.

@@marcmoore4115 he doesn't believe that they're the best in every category and at every range, he's just tired of the misinformation from fudds who say that *ONLY* "hunting" bullets can work for hunting. He IS particularly invested in his position because he's a long range Hunter and the right match bullets will outperform everything else at long range. I've even asked him about certain "match" bullets and his first question was "for what?" A match bullet will perform at most distances, but they only OUTperform most other bullets at long range specifically. At ranges under 400yds (with most carteidges) a TTSX or CX is going to outperform almost everything else available, but due to their monolithic construction they need drive band's to not cause excessive pressure and those bands drive the BC down. Those bullets' legendary toughness is also their greatest weakness at longer range performance because the bullet is harder and tougher and it requires more velocity to cause expansion. I'm a firm believer in the effectiveness of match bullets (when used correctly) for hunting, but my favorite bullet is the Barnes TTSX/LRX for anything under 400yds because I have almost zero meat contamination and it makes cleaning the animal so much simple to not have to hunt for small shards of copper and lead, but if I'm going on a hunt that has a likelihood of over 40-50% of me taking a longer shot I'll deal with the extra cleaning hassle for better bullet performance. LRHG *can* come across as gruff or "pressing" (excellent choice of word there) mostly because he spends a ton of time refuting claims that match bullets are garbage when the claim is only based on "well it's not a 'hunting' bullet so it won't work" when he has mountains of proof showing that they work extremely well. It's irritation at people's constant stupidity and refusal to listen to actual data and going with their belief.

@@Kross8761 Well when you get dunked on all day for promoting hunting at stupid ranges you're probably going to be a dick. I think HE and other highly-skilled shooters can get away with it. Promoting it to the average hunter is retarded as the average hunter is NOT a good enough shot, even with modern optics/range-finders, etc. I find plenty of game every season that was shot by someone that THINKS they're good enough, but most aren't

@@Kross8761 Very well said. I was using the 168gr ELD-M in my .308 at 2752fps. Performed great for me and the furthest I shot with them while hunting was a Warthog at 308m. Closest was a Gemsbok at about 50m, ran 20m and was dead by the time I could get there. Didn't have time to load, so I'm now using Hornady Superformance 165gr SST's. Very impressed so far.

There are many different constructed match bullets just like many differently built bullets labeled with the word "hunting". Testing one side by side with one, doesnt really say much besides how that one particular bullet compared against that other particular bullet

Barbour creek has done some testing like that

The match bullet does what it always does and blows to pieces

@@user-eg8hb8xt3j i would disagree. Like any expanding bullet there is an velocity window where they work. Push them too fast and they shed weight rapidly, get them at the right speed and they just expand, go too slow and they fail to expand. No different in that sense than any other expanding bullet, labelled for hunting or not.

ultimate reloaders shows that the eldm do ok in ballistic gel reguardless what these 2 "experts" say. is it better than a hunting bullet no but it will work. sometimes you have to use what you can find is what these guys dont understand. also they hated on the 270 only to find its better than the 3006 (shows how much they know)

Their hunting bullets are either chemically bonded, or have an internal ring that holds the core in place.

I agree, they are petrified they won't have a blood trail, so they want a passthrough, which leads to a tracking job (sometimes/or most), which, in turn, requires a blood trail.

I can answer why someone would want a pass through, because that's what I want. I agree with bowhunters that the basic method of killing an animal is to make a hole and let the blood out. Two holes = blood goes out faster. I don't believe there's a magic bullet that can guarantee explosive deconstruction inside the chest cavity (maybe the bullet hits a shoulder blade before it gets there, maybe it hits a rib, maybe it hits both, maybe it hits nothing.) I *do* believe there's a bullet and velocity combination that can guarantee expansion and pass-through on a given size animal, no matter what it does or doesn't hit on the way through. Is it a simplistic way to set priorities? Maybe. But I've heard too many stories about bullets grenading on the outside of a shoulder blade to take that chance.

Edit: 123gr ELDM are what I have loaded now, I used factory hornady match with the 147gr eldm last season. Video of the terminal damage can be found on my channel, though YT restricted it to 18+

​@@veteranironoutdoors8320Any reason to pick the ELDM over the A tip?

I shoot those 135 a tips out of my 6.5 prc at 3450 fps and they freaking destroy whatever is In its path. 5 bucks and a bobcat so far.

@@YoureSoVane price. A tips are double the cost of an eldm. But offer better BC’s and they delay expansion slightly so they would be better for quartering shots or larger bodied game. I would have had 0 qualms putting that 135gr A tip into an elk’s lungs/heart.

@@shitsngiggles8371 i have a 20” barrel on my creedmoor so I was “only” pushing it 2780. Still worked amazingly.

Heck yeah - appreciate you tuning in!

Dont

You said it really well. Exactly this point is something they should have brought up in the video. Most match bullets are not sold as expanding bullets. In my country the hunting regulation requires that we use expanding bullets on game (with some exceptions). If I tested particular match bullets in my gun to verify that they do expand it might be ok, but it would be a legal grey zone that I rather stay away from.

Not all match ammo is the same. Eldm ELDX and tmk are all proven bullets that put down big game

Absolutely, there are strengths and weaknesses to both types of bullets, as long as they are used intelligently and within their capabilities they're both extremely effective.

While I agree you should always use the ammo your gun likes best, I have to mention that you should always match your ammo type to your game. Bonded bullets or mono will always hold together better and will always outperform frag style or soft point when used on heavy game with high speed ammo.

9/10 it’s probably just your rifle liking that particular bullet more. My .300 WM loves cheap 150g federal soft point but doesn’t shoot the best with 175g Hornady precision hunter. My 6.5 prc drives tacks with hornady 147g match

The TTSX are simply fantastic. I've started loading them all the way down to my ultralight Grendel and they shoot tiny little groups and put whitetails down quick.

I am torn on the Barnes. I think they carry a higher risk for an uninformed hunter to f.. up. Barrels are getting shorter due to suppressors getting more common. Combine that with a cartridge using slower heavier projectiles and your reliable expansion max shooting distance gets uncomfortably short. A really good worst case example would be a 9.3x62 Mauser out of a 20‘

@@nikos6220 Agreed. I don't understand the fascination with heavy bullets for whitetail and mule deer sized game. Any well-constructed bullet over 90 grains is plenty. I start the 115s at around 2550 out of the bolt gun(I don't consider it a safe AR load). That keeps me above 1900 fps to 300, though I limit shots with this rifle to 250. I'm back east, so most of our shots are under 100 yards, unless we are sitting in a stand with long sight distance. I will be taking my 7 PRC to those, previously I used my .308 with an Accubond load. I have no personal experience with elk sized or larger game, nor Western spot, stalk, shoot a long ways in the wind style hunting. :)

Any time if hit with barnes the critter was recovered. Folks know your own limitations hunt smart and ethically.

​@@diggernash1 I have killed black tail at 200 yards with a 55gr barnes from a 223 very dead moved 25 30 yards. Had full pass trough on a broad side shot. I'm of the school that bullet constion is the most important factor not that it can't be done the other way its just mot how I was brought up.

This is the exact point of using bonded or all cooper for hunting they always work at all ethical hunting ranges no matter what they encounter on the way in to the vitals !

@@dougkahler7152or dont shoot them on the shoulder. Avoid bone where possible things tend to work out better

Certain match bullets (the big ones being the amax/eldm, tmk, and sometimes the vld) are very effective and boringly reliable on game when you understand how and when to employ them. They are the exact same concept as old school prebonded bullets like the winchester silvertips used in 30-30s, 300 savage, and 303s for decades, but made in a more aerodynamic shape which extends the range. The good ones are just thin jacketed hollow points. Nothing more nothing less. Just like older style bullets, push them too fast, (ie close range shots with a magnum) they’ll probably fail. Any soft hunting bullet will, not just match grade. This is why bonded bullets made there debut shortly after the magnum craze, as a solution to pushing soft bullets faster and getting bullet blow up. Match bullets work by an opposing concept, they extend your range via BC and not powder, thus reducing impact velocities, and reducing the need of a stout bullet and high velocities to initiate expansion to begin with. When they impact at mild velocity they deform/fragment gradually. The slower the impact, the less they deform/fragment, and the deeper they penetrate. Need to shoot a bigger animal? Slow them down. Its counter intuitive for people but once you understand how the function, you can keep them within their best use velocities windows, just like any other bullet. The heavier the bullet, the more mass it has there is to shed, the deeper it will penetrate vs a lighter projectile. Hence why heavy for caliber match bullets are optimal. They’re just a soft bullet option which is necessary for mild impact velocities if you want any sort of mechanical damage. People always equate this to only applicable to long range, but it’s also applicable to mild cartridge/rifle combinations just like it was utilized in the exampled 30-30 I mentioned above. A modern combination would be for short barreled rifles (16-20”) in mild cartridges like 7-08, 6.5, 308; match bullets are a saving grace which keep these rifles lethal without limiting range and terminal effect with tough bullets whose efficacy would be at the bleeding edge from just the initial muzzle velocities produced. If you have any need for a reduced barrel length (suppressors) these bullet options are a relevant option to consider. When your rifle/cartridge combo doesn’t even start with 2400-2600fps initial velocity, bullet blowup from muzzle to the max effective range of 1800-1600fps (depending on bullet) isn’t a concern. Keep impacts below 2400, and it’s going to kill what you hit. Emphatically at that. Impacts slightly above that, aim for something soft, like a neck so the bullet encounters less resistance and expands more gradually. Hitting at the bleeding edge of 1600-1800? Aim for a shoulder to increase resistance and aid in bullet expansion. It’s just understanding how the bullet design behaves in tissue. Not all match bullets are created equal. Research which have proven results and do not make assumptions. Realistically all you’d ever need are amax/ELDMs and TMKs and you could ignore the rest. Websites like BallisticStudies, and numerous law enforcement and hunting forums have thousands of pages of data with recorded impact velocities, game weights, and pictures. Long Rang Hunting Group on KZfaq has many videos on the subject. There’s lots of data out there if you have the time and inclination to learn. If you don’t, stick to traditional hunting bullets in traditional barrel lengths, at traditional ranges, at high impact velocities and don’t worry about it. But if you fall into the category of “needing” a low velocity solution, you have options…

sub MOA at 1000 yards: well, you should compete in F-class because this place you in the top 10 easy.

@@gildasguerin far more to fclass then a submoa rifle! I may be "capable" of shooting a "small group, but reading the wind consistently at that range is something i have yet to master!

@@thomasgordon935 : the national champions of F-class may shoot 1/4 MAO at 100 yards but they shoot around 1 MAO at 1000 yards. Not 1/4 MAO (because of wind, velocity dispersion etc). The 10 on the target is 10 inch. So if you shoot "well sub-MOA at 1000 yards" you are easily in the top 3.

@@gildasguerin i think your misunderstanding my comment. The ammo and rifle is capable of shooting well sub moa if conditions allow it. And it has done it multiple times. My abilities to read wind etc mean that my groups arent always "well under sub moa". Me shooting a 5 shot group in good conditions is by no means comparable to an fclass shooter completing a 20 shot string for record with time constraints

I like both solid copper expanding and something like the eldm Copper for the plan b shot , eldm for the long range. The guys at Hornady can't be honest, corporate policy

Using an fmj to hunt is just plain dumb.

@@TMar129 the deer didn't think so.

It's going to depend on the bullet, and the down range velocity (cartridge and load). The Barnes LRX requires 1600 fps minimum. The factory loaded 6.5 CM 127gr LRX drops below 1600 fps just beyond 600 yards. Out of my hand loaded 6.5 PRC, the 127gr LRX is good out past 800, but that's well beyond my capability as a shooter.

Classic Barnes X Bullet expansion on game. The diameter and depth of the hollow determines how far back the petals peel and at what impact velocities. The minimum for expansion is generally about 1,800 fps.Jul 16, 2021 From Ron Spomer Giving it 1800 fps at 680 (rough throw at Applied Ballistics for where I shoot)

I was also under the same impression would like to know more

@@sn1per194 Ron seems to be a nice guy, but I would caution to use him as a golden source. Too much of what he says is off the mark in my opinion. At 1.800 you might get some expansion but nowhere near what a good bonded bullet like the Accubond will have. There are some really good other channels that are testing bullet performance at different ranges and provide the impact speed. take a look at the very limited expansion you get even above 2k. Plus the guys use water which is basically a prefect medium for expansion.

Long range hunting group - you might want to look them up. They have some good video’s on here.

Be happy that you can decide for yourself using good wisdom what is suitable for a certain game. Where I live we have strict rules on so many things. A whitetail for instance is only legal to hunt with bullets of at least 139gr. And no difference in rules if it is a calf or a huge buck.

@@Rohan4711 That is an odd rule to have. I know some states place a .243/6mm minimum diameter for hunting calibers. While AR is fine with you using a 22 Hornet for taking whitetail. In fairness to the classic 22 Hornet. In knowledgeable hands. It is a capable round. The one that always baffled me was the slug only states. I mean has there ever been a law? That goes out of it's way to make young hunters, not want to be young hunters. As much as that law does. I am glad to have plentiful bag limits with minimal weapon regulations. Could not imagine years of no hunting cause I didn't get picked for a tag.

When hunting thick woods in the east and northeast an exit wound can be the difference between finding your deer and not finding it. It’s so thick in a lot of places they can bed down 50 yds from you and be extremely difficult to find.

Great bullet for sure. Mark B.

That would be a good talk for sure! We'll get that added to our list!

Hey Julian! First off - thanks a ton for listening in! Glad you enjoy the podcasts. Completely respect everything you mentioned in your comment. Where are you looking to hunt hogs? Would love to help answer any questions you may have about it.

@@VortexNation I don’t think they’ve made it up near me yet. I’m located in NY and I haven’t heard or seen anything about them being this far north. I hear they can be found as close as NC or TN though which isn’t too far of a drive. I went to NC recently to check out the Wilmington area and whatnot and it was about a 12hr drive. I have no real plans for it yet… it’s just that sort of thing my brother and my buddies and I always toss around as a fun trip to take.

Interesting to hear your experience, why the ELD-M, better expansion than ELD-X?

​@@bradh8391 thinner jacket thickness, eldx is thicker than eldm of equivalent sized

The old timer who build my first rifle shot competition with Dave Hart and Walt Berger. He built race car engines for dirt track racing so Dave invited him to come up and taught him how to chamber precision rifles. He built my first 7mag rifle and the load development with the 162 Amax. His longest was 1140 yd with the 162 Amax. The thin jacket of the Amax would penetrate about 2 inches and go off like a grenade only to liquidity heart and lungs and yet the bullet base would leave an exit wound. My first long-range shot was 504 yds which was a piece of cake. So I eased out to 600,700,800,900 and 1102 yd. I switch to the 180 gr Eldm with the higher bc to fight the wind, less spin drift, and more energy on target. My 7 mag and the .243 will shoot .03 @ 100 yds. The new 7x300 win mag is shooting .07 with the 190 gr Berger @3052 fps with 72.6 grs of Retumbo. The goal for the upcoming season is to break the 1200 yd barrier. I have an old cartridge you need to talk about on the show. The 7x30 Waters. It's a 30-30 case necked down to a 7mm. It's a 200 yd cartridge max with a Nosler 120 gr Ballistic Tip. Have fun guys! Thanks

@@jimmoseley2983 Wow! That 7x30 waters sounds cool!