Five pins from 20 to 60 yards on my compound shooting a 650 grain arrow. It's not an issue that I can't hunt at longer range. I shoot 675 grain arrows out of a 35Lb bare bow; point blank (no gap) is 35 yards with that setup. Stalking skills reduce arrow arc. If I ever get into target archery I'll build some lighter arrows. The heavy ones offer no disadvantage for the way I hunt.

"stupid, but not a dumbass".... that's a t-shirt. SO many applications

Why does a long range rifle hunter shoot a high BC bullet, and you put a bow in his hand and all the sudden the lightest arrow seems like the best Idea?

Great video. I'm a trad guy, and my velocities are a bit lower, but the results are MORE applicable. I like your use of momentum vs energy. If you do the Math ( i'm a Mech Engineer and a ballistician) you get a couple of double whamy's when going light and fast vs heavy and medium speed. You nail it on the momentum at the target, but there is a second effect. A faster light arrow uses much more energy to penetrate a given thickness of critter than a heavier arrow. That is, the resistance to penetration goes up as the square of the velocity at impact. An arrow going 20% faster experiences 44% more resistance to penetration than a comparative slower arrow. That's why guys can get full penetration out of a 45 or 50 lb recurve shooting a heavy arrow vs some shooting 60 to 70 lb compounds shooting light arrows, even though the energy (but not the momentum) of the latter is much higher. if you ever want to walk the math, give a shout. Again, thanks for the great videos and practical applications . All good.. PS. I'm quite sure my form sucks lol

Haters gonna hate Troy, keep pluggin’.

This just confirms the basic physics. Momentum is p=mv. Let us forget about the fact that bows are more efficient in pushing heavier arrows and assume the energy to be identical. A heavy arrow gets less velocity while a light arrow gets a high velocity but momentum (p) is the same. The resisting forces (air drag) however scale with the square of the velocity so... The more velocity you have to begin with, the more you have to lose as the mass isn't going to disappear. We ain't shooting rockets here.

It is very simple “learn to shoot the trajectory” - good vid🏹

I find it funny that guys with 30"+ draw lengths that shoot 70+ pounds instruct people to shoot arrows that they don't even shoot themselves. I also find it funny that Dudley's voice is in the commercials played during this video, LOL "Get the new T2 broadhead"....."I told Iron Will Bill he doesn't know shit about broadheads because he doesn't pay me"..."These are the best ever"

Troy - I look forward to the trajectory comparison video when you make it. I think there will be some interesting visual comparisons that most folks are not counting on. Keep up the good work !

Thanks for the helpful information. As always great videos.

Its almost like youre saying what happens when the arrow makes impact with the thing I'm trying to kill is more important than the speed rating it has as its leaving the bow? It astounds me that the light arrow crowd are more concerned with 2-3" of drop they could account for more than any mentioned of penetration they arent getting.

Thanks for makin sense for us common folk RF🤘 The twizzler / flapper guys will never learn and are to stubborn to change. Keep up the good work!!

Thanks for another brilliant video.

Oh my gosh, where did the bow flip go😂😂. I have arrows at 575, 610, and 663gr. I have the easy v, and it was sighted in the 575gr arrow. The other 2 arrow setups work off the same easy v sight out to 35yds. Great stuff, Troy, and thx for making me laugh my ass off again.

Thank you sir, I've been applying your knowledge awhile now. Will not go back to twizzler sticks

Great stuff man!

As always, Troy... you're in fine form with this one. Remember the golf ball and the ping pong ball against the glass... You could post that video, and people would say you don't throw right. Keep bringing the facts. Those of us that care and can think for ourselves appreciate all you do.

Love the shirt it has so many applications

Looks like what the data should show. nice job

your videos are awesome.everything you cover just makes sense to this 2.5 yr.newbie. i learned it from you dad(80"s just say no ) nancy regan era

Thanks for sharing.👊🏻🏹

Improved penetration outweighs speed and flatter trajectory. Adult arrows work better.

Good stuff!!

That was a brilliant video. Can't believe it when the arrow dropped into the fence. Post check the videos coming they are brilliant.🇺🇸 😆👍 .🇬🇧

Have you ever done or think of comparing the arrow trajectory at night using lighted nocks and a long exposure still picture then super imposing the images? I did it couple of years ago did “image” my arrow trajectory and it is interesting. Thanks for all the videos. They are awesome and learning a lot.

To add to your point, the arrow flies in a 3 dimensional plane. So, I would like to know how much less wind drift the heavier arrow experiences at 60 yards.

Good information. I like the Thomas Sowell quote. In this case - the tradeoff going from a 450 grain arrow to 589 is in range forgiveness and time in flight at 60 yards at the benefit of penetration. Interesting - Per lab radar data. With a longer draw and higher energy setup (IE poundage) my 483 grain arrow has the same momentum at 60 as Troy's 589 grain arrow but gets to the target 15% faster. Given speed of sound and a physiological response time - the animal would have the opportunity to move for 21% more time. If the animal does move - it has longer time to accelerate and would be moving away from the arrow at a higher velocity when the arrow gets there. Like a boxer moving away from a punch and the slower arrow would actually lose more momentum. Not to mention your arrow is hitting further away from the original aim point.

Overlay the drop and time to target. There is a significant difference in long range drop when arrows get heavier and it’s not 1.5 inches. Just did this with target arrows. Zero’d at 65 with 420 gr arrow shot same pin with 375 gr and was 5 inches higher at 65. I realize these are target arrows but the same concept holds. There are sacrifices with either choice. I’ve hunted with a bow for 50 years. Been shooting arrows at 430 to 500 grains. Have lost one deer due to lack of penetration with a shoulder hit. Would rather have a faster, flatter arrow and stay away from the shoulder. Less time for the animal to move. Less opportunity for distance misjudgment and I’ve experienced no incidence of penetration concerns except when I hit the shoulder direct on that deer. That was extremely poor shot placement. Shoot what you want. I personally don’t care if you shoot 400 grains or 800. If you want down range momentum as your driving factor, knock yourself out. The debate is ridiculous.

I love that shirt!

Im a light arrow guy but RF is absolutely correct on this. A heavier arrow carries more energy over long distances better than a light arrow. Its a number game and numbers dont lie. The only reason i use the lighter arrow is trajectory but thats really not that big of a difference since i starting messing with heavier setups.

The bow going left thing is a result of the shot breaking under tension as you push and pull, not knowing exactly when it will go off to help prevent shot anticipation. The reason you don’t see it in hunting videos is likely because people are punching the trigger to send the arrow when the time is right. At least that’s what I do🤷‍♂️

Well, you were right... quite boring, but interesting just the same! lol Thanks for the work Troy :)

I wish you would work with Mythbusters. That would be a dream team of logic and physics for bow hunting

Great job Troy. Sometimes you just can’t fix stupid 😂 People are just stuck in there ways. Or they think because they killed a buck with a 400 grain arrow then that’s all they need.

Going up in arrow weight and getting rid of the spaghetti noodles and switching to adult broadheads has left me with some expensive tomato stakes😑😂

I think j Dudley would probably critique the form of a hooter shooter. I appreciate your testing, now that I live in the Midwest, I just shoot 72lb. 300gt hunter w 40 gn insert and a qad exodus. At the end of the day, it comes down to my shot placement, it keeps passing through, as it did at 60lb. However, when I was in Texas, I shot an 83lb invasion with an fmj, cause pigs don't play, and I don't always make a perfect shot and really needed the energy. Right tool for the job I guess

I would say this about trajectory both gun and bow. I feel when your only worried about trajectory then your not really a good shot to begin with. I know this comment will get “ comments”. But it’s the truth , as evidence of this watch the 45-70 arguments !! Projectile weight is where it’s at matching it with the proper weight of bow!! Which is harder to stop a corvette at 120 mph or a freight train at 50 mph? Common sense!

My take---Light arrow gets to target quicker, has less time for wind to throw it off, has less momentum to penetrate target. Heavy arrow gets to target slower, has more time for wind to throw it off, has more momentum to penetrate target. Both types of arrows can be made to shoot accurately, the REAL issue is what your target is, a paper/3D target or a living thing & this is where it all changes, to hit a paper/3D target you need speed & accuracy, sure, you can use 'anything' but you won't be winning comps, to hit a living thing you have an onus on yourself to take that animal ethically, which means wound channels so that animal can succumb to the shot quickly, pass throughs leave wound channels that bleed well, arrows that are still embedded in the animal tend to bleed slower, animal covers more ground before succumbing, more work for you, arrows that only partially penetrate an animal can mean a lost animal (that turns up on a greenies property who then causes a 'scene' & bow hunters are the devil incarnate). Bottom line, heavy arrows good for game, light arrows good for paper/3D targets, doesn't mean they CAN'T be used, but, there are much better options.

I believe statistically most whitetail deer shot with a bow is seventeen yards and under.My over thirty years of bow hunting pretty much agrees with that stat.That would be here in Michigan though.

There's another compromise... the yardage tape e.g. 60 yards on the light arrow is more like 80 yards with the heavy arrow. So you've effectively limited your range and widened pin gaps. Does that matter, that's the question. On a case by case basis, maybe. I would recreate the drop tests at 60 yards between a 400, 500, and 600 grain arrows. Is 1.5" difference of miss delta at 40y a big difference? When you consider the size of the broad head is maybe that amount, and the delta only grows even larger at 60 yards or more, maybe it is. The "it's a dynamic situation" argument is an extremely valid counter argument, but the less you need to float the easier it is to do that accurately under the gun.

I knew it was the Ranch Fairy when I first noticed twizzlers on the hook screen.

I want to know if the further you go back the higher you should aim on the animal, eg, 10 yards the arrow fly alot flatter then an arrow at 40 - 50 yard. Which would mean if you shoot at the point on the outside of an animal the arrow enters with a different angle with the potential to miss vitals?

I can't argue with your results Troy. My biggest issue in all of this isn't understanding that heavier arrows can maintain momentum. I get that. My issue is the trajectory and speed at impact. I've had deer jump the string on me at 30 yards. I'm surprised you don't talk about personal arrow optimization. Each one of us shoots a different bow, draw length, and draw weight. All of these things factor in and make a big difference in the overall max effectiveness of our arrows and can affect what actual arrow weight is best for each of us to shoot. Thoughts?

Ranch f I prefer to watch you over The John Dudley!!! 😊

Here is how the trajectory argument plays in for me.. I didnt like a cluttered sight and switched to a single pin. With that set at 27 yards, i am within roughly 2 inches from 10 to about 32 yards. As far as momentum, i had to pull my sub 450 grain arrow out of the dirt on every deer ive shot with a 1.5+ mechanical. Roughly 8 deer with that set up Serious question, why then do i need more momentum?

Everybody has the right to be wrong to some people, even when their facts are right to the rest of the planet. I think an interesting video would be, to look at Dr. Ed's 12 factors of arrow lethality and see how Dr. Ed ranks the percentage of importance for each factor. For example, if you look at the first three factors of broadhead integrity, mechanical advantage, and arrow flight, what combined percentage of importance would those three factors have, compared to the combined percentage of importance of the next nine factors, and why. I find it interesting that the magical 650 grain weight is number twelve.

You’re a nice guy troy. Love the videos. Truth is you cherry pick your data to support your point, depending on the topic. In all honesty, a 450 grain arrow, broadside at 20 yards will blow through any whitetail with a proper placed shot. I, nor anyone IMO, should be shooting a whitetail at 60 yards, regardless of arrow weight. I will agree if talking about larger bodied game like elk where 60 yards is more common I would definitely have a heavier arrow. But if you’re responsibly shooting whitetail at 20 broadside, 450 vs 650 does not matter

Archers or target shooters hitting the 10 ring consistently no matter what the range feel that it's best. They fail to incorporate some facts into their logic. The target moves at times. Therefore the 10 ring moves. The flappers they shoot sometimes hits ribs or scapula. Though they readily admit that fixed blade and especially single beveled are better than flappers in those situations. They have convinced themselves that they can out speed the target reflex and movement with that light setup. Next time you watch those precision shooters and they shoulder hit an animal and only get minimum penetration and you watch the video of the animal running away with a flag flying. Remember the Fairy explaining adult arrow tests . As a stickbow hunter with velocity half the speed . I'll stick with adult arrow setups and puff my chest out by getting within 15 yards of my quarry and the Archers turned hunters, you can retain bragging rights to those long range shooting situations.

They also think that if you have the heavy arrow and the animal walks away a bit you have to let down to rerange so that you know the exact yardage to shoot for.

I prefer the reverse bow flip with hip thrust.😄😁😆

Ranch fairy ur the shit brother and I hope you have a good day

People kill things with homemade bows and we have done so with sticks and stones for thousands of years theirs even a guy killing blackbear with a blowdart gun.. A heavier arrow has more momentum, not arguing that. What needs to be considered is arrow drop, flight time, an archers skill, and preference. 450ish gr rip tko with a fixed blade will take down anything in north America, have tighter pins, and less flight time than a 650grain arrow giving a better chance of point of aim and point of impact being closer allowing for a more ethical shot at 60yds+. Also have to consider the overall speed of someone's bow, not everyone has a 30" draw and not all bows are "fast". If someone runs a slower bow idk how you'd adjust 5 pins out to 60yds in a 2" scope housing @650gr so you need a slider sight and some of us prefer fixed pins for hunting. Its a matter of preference. Deer in my area are on edge all the time, they will pick you out from 60yrds away at times. For me I want a light, fast arrow, that will ethically take down the animal. I prefer yardage forgiveness(tighter pins) and less dwell time between the shot an impact. I also shoot almost daily to be proficient at 60yds. Momentum may be your jam but shoot a 5 pin sighted in bow vs a 650gr bow using your 20pin out to 40yrds and see what the drop difference is and then take that out to 60yrds. An on target shot is always going to trump an adult arrow and your more likely in the heat of the moment to make an ethical shot with a 450ish grain arrow. It's not a matter of momentum its matter of hitting the mark. If your a pro archer and have you setup dialed than it doesn't matter, I speak for the non professional archers.

You group tune at 90 meters bro?

Need heard of back tension when bows only had 50-60% letoff and the bows were easier to shoot.

❤❤

Physics trump opinions every time. ….”send it to your friends. Especially the ones who will get pissed off.” 😂😂

while testing my DIY broadheads on compound i stumbled on wierd effect that should not be happening, lighter arrow maintained more momemtum after hitting .5" construct board into wool / cotton carpets, 424gn vs 482gn, roughly 10fps more on lighter arrow, i repeated this test multiple times and still cant figure what is going on, 60 ish dw 28.5dl 234 / 224 fps ish, under 400gn arrow had it worst, all the same arrows but different inserts, 42gn and 100gn

No matter how hard you try bud you can't fix stupid! Who cares about the trolls, we believe and follow you,that's what matters. K÷p up the great work.😅

OK, so could you please talk about the fact that all arrows LOST THE SAME AMOUNT OF MOMENTUM at the same distance? 🤔All lost .05 slug feet per second regardless of weight! Your test was repeated by Exodus Outdoors and they got the same result. This means, all you need is the launch speed and the rest can be calculated every time. This will basically give you a potential range threshold for killing any game. All you need to do is do the correct math. By the way, how can I get admittance to hunt with you? Hi from Germany.

We’ve seen the Hunting Public guys switch to heavy arrows and single bevels. Aren’t they there now? For shits and giggles why now have some twizzler/flapper guys show up and compare results and settle the debate finally?

Man I'm struggling, I love shooting at 120 yard. But if I move to a heavy arrow. (Which I want to) I can't shoot that far. So I'm having a hard time with that trade off

Teaching bow hunter education i taught harvesting game ìn the most ethical means.... Sharp heads, sharp minds, and sharp practice.... I grew up with a straight bow and HEAVY gear why... i shot lower poundage and a higher weight allowed me to take coyotes and raccoons with a bow... 30# bow with 145 grain Eskimo heads and 25" aluminum shafts FILLED WITH GAP FOAM and fletched with real feathers.... because my arrows where in need of the weight to penatrate

I have never seen so many failures on archery ever as I have until recently in years. Everyone should go back to 2219s and 150 grain heads those that want higher FOC add brass or heavier tip. Call it done. Mechanical or fixed your choice you are 0.6-0.8 slugs of momentum from launch to target at i don’t care what distance because it just doesn’t drop. Hit and passthrough we should all get back to killing things. Leave the carbons for target archers.

Lets go fishing Troy

The question that needs to be answered is “ what is the minimum momentum value” at the bow to get a pass through on a “plan A” shot? Then we can pick and choose what trade offs we are willing to make in our set ups.

💪🏽🇺🇸🏹

Your conclusion is correct but you aren't selling it as well as you could. Try slowing it down, walk folks through the graph, and work on avoiding mis-use of the word energy when (I think) you are referring to momentum. It's hard to follow the presentation even though it is very simple. Here are the key questions: What is the bowhunter skill / limitations, what are they trying to accomplish and what weigh arrow (and Broadhead type) is needed to do that? Bowhunters who want to assure an exit wound need more Momentum than those that don't - but the question is how much more? Personally, I am seeking enough momentum to get a two lung hit if I hit the flat part of the scapula. The problem is, there isn't consistent feedback on the boundary between success and failure with such a hit - how much momentum is actually needed?? On a related note, we don't all have equal hunting skill or practical accuracy. You mentioned Dudley in the video. I've thought a bit about guys like Dudley and others that are essentially "National Caliber Archers". The precision of those guys is so great that a 1.5 inch improvement in trajectory could in fact be more meaningful to them than the extra momentum. Why? Because they are unlikely to muff the shot. Thus, they can pick shots through brush or take shots with difficult angles more successfully than your average archer can do on close range shots. They are also much less likely to hit heavy bone. For them, the overall benefits of speed probably makes sense. There is also an equipment difference between what I'll call the average bowhunter with a 28.5 inch draw length and draw weight of 65 lbs vs. guys like Dudley with what, a 31 inch DL and 75-80 Draw weight. I think for the average bowhunter after elk, a heavier arrow and keeping shots at =< 40 yards (with rangefinder) makes most sense. At those ranges, a HEAVY arrow makes a LOT of sense. I can say with some authority that a 440 grain arrow with a COC Broadhead shot into a live Elk's Scapula is NOT enough to consistently get a double lung hit and kill the elk (I did it at 22 yards with a two blade stinger and got one lung and lost the elk). Sure, guys claim they do it. Sometimes you get lucky. I met a guy at my range last weekend who got lucky, but it they were also lucky to find the elk after hours of searching. I can also say with some confidence that my heavy arrow set up which weighs 625 grains topped with a 212 grain Abowyer Brown Bear single bevel BH (weight w/ adapter installed) will likely go through both shoulder blades of an elk (based on feedback from others). Sadly, I've never had a shot when I've carried my "heavies".

Message, methodology and math are solid. The challenge is money (the combined effects of marketing and media). If "THE AVATAR" comes clean the whole game ends. No more "best X they ever made". No more sponsorships. We all launch Tuffheads or Magnus' on whatever brand arrow correctly spined using the first release we ever bought aimed down an EZV because they work. Then we all shoot our risers flaccid and our bearings bumpy. By industry standards Doc is literally THE Antichrist, and we all are just his retarded minions. I'm okay with that. Then again, the industry isn't feeding my family.

Cuz "western hunting". Most people don't realize, the first animal killed with a bow and arrow west of the Mississippi didn't happen until 2005. 😊

Violence it is.

Trajectory is the not the only trade-off. Respectfully, your analysis (in a previous video) that time of flight does not matter is incorrect. Personally, I prefer neither a super heavy nor a super light arrow, but a balanced setup.

Being neutral on the subject, Id like to play devils advocate here. Why does high speed, lighter weight, projectiles defeat body armor where slow heavy ones do not? Does this not illustrate the relationship of penetration of projos?

Just feeding AL Gore... ...Rhythms

Crap. The thousands of 400-500 grain arrows I sold to customers last year are subpar? Gonna have to budget a new file cabinet for all the shooter complaints...

Your test is invalid because you use a spinning reel upside down, (and because i dont like the results) lol

😜😜🤣🤣👏👏👏

Enjoyed the video - had a great laugh. I find it hard to believe that "great shooters" promote these huge distances for hunting with light arrows losing momentum like a stone. I called it what it is - unethical. Watched a video earlier - CB shot a 350 gr arrow versus 600gr arrow. The 350 gr arrow dropped 30inches at 40 m while the 600 grain arrow dropped 36 inches - when using sights set at 20m. I am not sure how big your elk are - but 30 inch low on most big African game would be a complete miss if aiming for mid 1/3 up. Apparently the 6inches are important? Surely you set you tape to your arrow?

Brooooo. Wtf. You hold the rod and reel upside down? Noooooooooo

Please stop quoting Sowell he is often wrong.

LOL. You speed metered a 589 grain arrow at 60yds? How fast was it going? How fast was the 450 grain arrow through the speed meter? That change in speed is measurable at launch and at 60. Your graph is inaccurate and meaningless. You don't lose momentum that's measurable at 60. Lighter gets there faster. faster = more momentum. You seem to think the lighter faster arrow has brakes on it or something. Slow and heavy is equivalent to fast and light at reasonable range shots. I'll stick with speed. Lob away.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qJx_ZM1ksa-ugqM.html Moral of the story just shoot better.

Had some respect for the way he handled himself on Dudley’s video. That has been lost on him making a video saying everything he was too scared to say to Dudley…

can you block a channel?

hah his feelings are hurt and he keeps deleting my reply. A little copy pata and it's back. It seems what your going for sitting at your corn pile at 20 yards shooting adult arrows is not being an adult and taking bad shots hoping for the best. Animals move sure.. but do the adult thing and wait for a good angle instead of just sending an arrow in there and just praying your BIG BOY arrows gonna blow throw everything so you "might" recover the animal. God forbid you adult and practice, and wait a few seconds for the animal to move again so you can put one where it's intended to go and be 100% lethal. You make fun or target archers and their over exaggeration of back tension, I'm no target archer but I make fun of you when I watch your dog water arrow flight making a box fan size group at 50 yards. Adult up, go practice, get better, be an ethical hunter.. Its proven that little light arrow is capable of killing any animal that walks on this continent. Regardless if your ego wants to admit it. At this point as hush hush as you were with John, I'd say your just fkn trolling for attention.

I love that shirt 😂 I want one