What's your final method? And advise for a playlist of you or something like that?:)

Basically the issue with using edge trailing strokes to create a microbevel is that you will almost inevitably create a microscopic burr while doing so. You can see this here (scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/10/30/burr-removal-part-1/) on the Science of Sharp blog where 20 edge trailing passes on an edge bevel were enough to produce a microscopic burr. Since the contact area when creating a microbevel is much smaller, the pressure increases, and it is reasonable to suspect that even with 5-10 edge trailing passes per side that there would be a significant risk of a microscopic foil burr forming.

Absolutely. Any type stone that does not shed grit can be used to set the apex, which you choose to use should be based on what grit of finish you need for your apex.

Do you have a lot of practice at burr based sharpening, and can you consistently get a sharp apex using a burr based approach?

@@steeldrake838 I have been sharpening for a few years and think I am doing Ok with that. I not sure, but I'm starting to think it is with my arm hair. Maybe it doesn't cut easily enough. Some say that a person should be able to cut hair above the skin with an 8K edge with a straight razor, but I have never been able to do that, but seen others do that with a courser grit. I use a 1200 King Delux for the bevel set and I can cut arm hair, but not that easily. I just found it frustrating seeing people on the Internet cut arm hair with a course grit stone and cheap knives. So don't know if the problem is with my sharpening or the steel on the knives, or the stones I am using. Joe

Assuming you are elevating the angle enough to hit the apex on the stone you are using to apex the edge, but not raising the angle excessively, then the first thing I would check for is a micr-burr. I would try is deburring using high-angle passes and then repeating the apex setting step. I believe I have a couple of videos on this channel where I demonstrate deburring with high-angle passes. Can you please check if that has any effect?

I have tried many times, and it just blunts the edge even more. I am raising the angle about 5 degrees when finishing the apex.

I discovered that I get better results using the corners of the Sharpmaker rods than using the sides. I had been using the sides to control pressure, but I decided to try using the corners and while the results still aren't as good as yours, there has been undeniable improvement. I can feel the micro-serrations with my fingers now whereas before it was just slick. Why is that? The best results are on harder steels, which suggests burr formation is an issue, but why should using the corner reduce burr formation? I have another question, if you don't mind. What stone would you recommend to go between a King 1000 and a Spyderco F or UF? Is the Naniwa green brick a good choice?

Hey Ben, I just wanted to join in on your problem. I use a very similar approach to sharpening and I seem to have exactly the same issues. I cut the apex off, shape the edge on a 220 grit Sic stone or a 325 DMT until it slices newsprint and sometimes roughly pushcuts newsprint with the grain. I finish with light passes to minimize burr formation until I can't barely feel it anymore. After that I cut off the rest of the burr with 1-2 passes per side at 45 degrees on a dmt 600 or the sic stone. After that I raise the angle (compared to the original bevel angle) about 3-5 degrees and finish with ultra light passes on the 600 grit dmt or on the sharpmaker medium rods.I alternate sites and got the pressure to so light, that the knife just seems to skate over the diamonds. After 2-3 passes per side I check on paper and fingerpads for sharpness. I now often cuts paper a little smoother but lost almost all aggression to the touch. Every further pass usually makes it worse from now on and after 5-7 passes per side it starts to not slice newsprint in places very well anymore. I experimented and found that I get a little better results when I use just a little more pressure on the microbevel, but it still is nowhere near cross grain pushcutting. That increase in pressure seems similar to what you found with the corners of the sharpmaker. Devouring again on a high angle does not make it better. The edge just feels rounded and slick, especially near the ricasso. I'm seriously puzzled. Can somebody shine some light on that?

+Till Rehfeld Yeah, I'm thinking now that the edge just isn't getting thin enough in the shaping stage for a fine stone to form an apex in a few strokes. I can get there with enough time on the Sharpmaker rods, it just takes forever and I suspect it's leaving a micro-burr. The King stone is supposed to help with this but it doesn't. There must be a problem with my technique but I can't figure out what it is.

When you destress the edge, you should be looking for the whole length of the edge to visibly reflect light from a directional light source. Along the whole length means as you tilt the knife back and forth edge up under the light you should see the light reflecting smoothly off every part of the edge, without any gaps that would indicate microscopic chips deep enough to not have touched the stone as you were destressing the edge. The subsequent shaping of the edge bevel should continue until light no longer visibly reflects from any part of the edge. At this stage the knife should cleanly slice newsprint with any part of the apex. Hope that helps.

still having the same issues, especially with a victorinox scimitar and fdick ergogrip boning knife. I start by destressing into a beston 1200 fingerstone a couple og times and check for light (under my phone torch) for consistent reflection across the edge. I also mark the bevel with black marker to give me a visual indication I'm hitting where I think i am. this time around I have begun shaping at 6-8 degrees on a brand new, lapped shapton pro 320. this part takes a substancial amount of time to get the edge to stop reflecting light (like 40 minutes). this is done with light pressure for fear of overgrinding (guessing about 200g cutting a bevel around 2mm wide. need scales and new battery for my calipers to properly verify this). when the light has disappeared off the edge I work up a mud and lightly (as in barely touching the stone using as little pressure as possible) make alternating passes at the same 6-8 degrees to reduce any burr remaining, looking for scrape shaving sharpness. this is incredibly difficult to achieve and wouldn't call it a clean shave either. I spend like 5 minutes on this step thereabouts. still no light along the edge that I can see. the main problems occur at this step: clean the stone, light alternating strokes (5 per side) at 12 degrees and notice reduced sharpness. check under the light again and spot small glints of light along the edge. if I continue sharpening at the same 12 degrees this same glinting gets progressively worse, as does ultra light pressure high angled passes to shear off any burr fragments. go back to sharpening with mud at 6 degrees to start the process over again and end up going in circles indefinitely (spent 3 hours trying to do 2 knives last night) until I give up in frustration/die a little inside. I have tried this same progression using beston 500, shapton pro 220 and naniwa superstone 220 seperately as well as using these stones to prep the apex and then set the apex on a atoma 400 or norton india fine. I really want to get something equivalent to a superstone 400 in case I'm overgrinding but im broke and already have so many stones anyway. Using any of these progressions I get decent levels of slicing sharpness when setting the 6 degree bevel. sharpness drops when trying to set the microbevel. I can give more details later but I'm about to start work

I'm just a journeyman, so take this for what it's worth: If your stone flat? Is it conditioned? It sounds like there may be large abrasive standing out out after washing away the mud that's causing nicks in the apex. I've seen people use Spyderco UF for the apex shaping stage.

The main issue with that is that you would have to use edge trailing passes to do so as there would be an extremely high risk of gouging the stone and damaging the apex trying to create a microbevel using edge leading passes on the vast majority of waterstones, and because the loose abrasive slurry on top of the stone would round over the apex slightly while applying the microbevel and thus limit the sharpness. Conversely, the issue with using edge trailing strokes to set an apex is that there is a very high chance of creating a microscopic burr while doing so and thereby also limiting obtainable sharpness.

> there would be an extremely high risk of gouging the stone and damaging the apex trying to create a microbevel using edge leading passes on the vast majority of waterstones Does this mean when you wash off the mud there may be large protruding abrasives that nick the apex?

What I meant was that on most waterstones if you raise the angle and try to microbevel with edge leading strokes there is a good chance the apex will bite into the waterstone and gouge it, ruining the apex.

I've learned a lot of reading Cliff's work on various knife and sharpening related subjects over the years, but I always thought his video demonstration of three step sharpening left a lot to be desired in terms of detailed explanations and a slow enough demonstration for mortals to actually follow and see what is going on. It was one of my big motivations in making tutorial videos to try and make some more accessible tutorials.

Yes, I agree. I made a comment on this out of sinc explanation under his video if you care to look. I did manage to emulate the technique though (before finding yours) by skipping back and forth through it. Yours is a much clearer version. I've had GREAT success using this technique and do get consistently sharp edges now whereas before I had poor results taking longer to faff about to get there too!!! I'm only a 67yr old beginner to knife sharpening and this 3 step process has saved me some time, which I don't have to spare lol.

Glad to hear it's working well for you!

It Is Steel. Did you get a message I sent about soak time for the king KW65 1000/6000. This is my main concern at the moment. Don't want to use it till issue is settled. ATB Pete.

I did, and replied. In case you didn't get it, here is what I said "Kings benefit from a good long soak before use. I'd soak them at least an hour. Kings can also be permanently left in water if you put them in a bucket with an air tight lid and put a little bleach or vinegar in the water (the air-tight lid and vinegar are to keep the water from going bad). "