ACNE SCAR TREATMENTS | In Ethnic Skin

  Рет қаралды 54,415

Dr Davin Lim

Dr Davin Lim

3 жыл бұрын

Special considerations need to be taken into account when treating darker skin types, namely the BIOLOGY & physiology of SOC (Skin of colour). Darker one is, the more vigorous the response to pigmentation as well as unwanted scarring (keloid, hypertrophic scars).
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Manual revision is the basis of acne scar management. Devices should only be used as tools, if & when necessary. For an average case of acne scar case, I spend over 90% of my time with manual methods such as subcision & peels, & only 10% of time on devices such as lasers - RF microneedling. Devices are relatively straightforward- step on a pedal or press a button, you just need to know what to use & when to use. Of course have the CORRECT equipment will make revision more efficient, & also safer.
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Science: All things being equal (procedure, skill level, equipment level) the end result in the context of scar revision is largely based upon one’s ability to remodel scar tissue & regenerate dermal matrix. Everyone lies on a bell curve. Subcision beaks attached scars in the dermis but mostly the hypodermis. Fillers give a helping hand to severe atrophy or those who lie to the left of the curve.
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Scar types: Superficial acne scars include boxcar scars, pick scars, isolated icepickscars, & mild rolling scars. These can be treated with the usual microneedling, lasers, RFmicroneedling, TCA, & phenol peels, those scars respond predictably to treatment. Applying the correct parameters will reduce but not eliminate PIH or paradoxical skin darkening.
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Deep Scars include rolling scars, atrophic scars & tethered acne scars. With significant atrophy, in some cases your immune system can not stimulate enough collagen (& or adipose tissue) to replace the divots & undulations, namely rolling + atrophic scars. We can use many techniques to ASSIST YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM such as energy devices & manual methods
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Subcision is important, the needle technique is outdated, cannula, modified instrumentation subcision or NOKOR blades yield much better results. Pros & cons or each to be discussed with your #dermatologist or plastic surgeon
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Control of background acne: Is vital to good outcomes, ANY background inflammation can distract the immune system to repair scars, if one has 5 pimples per month & only ONE scar, over a course of 4 years there will be nearly 100 NEW SCARS. Control must be absolute in those who have the propensity to scar. This point is also the rate limiting factor in the majority of scar revision procedures. Even if one has a handful of active lesions, this can dramatically hamper the course of effective & efficient scar revision. Please have your acne in absolute remission prior to, or very very early in the course of scar revision.
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Dr Davin Lim
Brisbane
@cliniccutis @drdavinlim
#acnescars #acnescartreatments

Пікірлер: 208
@legzz187
@legzz187 3 жыл бұрын
Please do more videos on recommendations for darker skin types
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
will do
@SweetUareDesi
@SweetUareDesi 3 жыл бұрын
*thank you*
@GoddessLaticia
@GoddessLaticia 3 жыл бұрын
@@drdavinlim thank you!
@msqtheglowologistlicensede6176
@msqtheglowologistlicensede6176 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for acknowledging that all skin is not the same. I try to tell ppl in this Industry that all the time. 👍🏾
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for viewing. Always appreciate feedback from the industry !! X
@pumpkindee7888
@pumpkindee7888 2 жыл бұрын
As an Indian with dark skin, I really appreciate this video. It’s so hard to talk about skin concerns, here in India doctors don’t consult their patients properly neither do they give clean instructions on post treatment care, they just hand out some creams and tell you to stay healthy. I’ve been suffering from deep acne scars for most of my adult life. I’ll take your suggestions into consideration and see if anything changes. Thank you
@sharanyaamal7334
@sharanyaamal7334 Жыл бұрын
You have any change in your skin?
@ladyb3120
@ladyb3120 3 жыл бұрын
I would LOVE to be dr davin’s patient. So professional and considerate!
@Mayousse
@Mayousse 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for acknowledging & teaching about skin of color. KZfaq tends to focus on one type. So thank you again for those of us with the blessed melanin.
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
You are welcome. DL
@user-qn8hy6ew7u
@user-qn8hy6ew7u 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr Davin, I am doing PhD in UQ, and taking isotretinoin for nearly 4 months, my medical dermatologist told me after I take enough amount of isotretinoin based on my weight he will recommend me to your clinic for scar revision! I am very happy with the current acne treatment and I am sure that I will also get great results from yours! Thanks for your videos!
@MrMatthewhodge
@MrMatthewhodge 3 жыл бұрын
Dr Lim knows his stuff! I can’t wait to see him in the future about my skin
@visuwishu
@visuwishu 3 жыл бұрын
Frankly the best and most helpful video for people looking to and decide on what type of treatments they want to go for...great job ....thanks a lot for putting these up
@TheSnakeh
@TheSnakeh 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this video! I'm currently battling cystic acne, but I'm already planning my plan of action for scars, since I can't currently afford to see a specialist. Amazing doctors like you make it easy for people like me to treat their skin issues. Hope you're enjoying your holidays, Dr. Lim!
@TheSnakeh
@TheSnakeh 3 жыл бұрын
@ I have been dairy free for about 3 months before (due to another unrelated issue) and it didn't seem to help... Do you know if it takes longer to see changes if that is the issue? I just love dairy, lol Thanks for your comment, I really appreciate any help I can get.
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheSnakeh I do know if you have hormonal acne (like I do) dairy definitely makes it worse. To see results faster you’ll have to eat healthier overall and cut out all types of dairy. Even chips, whey protein and miscellaneous items that contain milk proteins, have to go.
@TheSnakeh
@TheSnakeh 3 жыл бұрын
@ Yup, chips definitely make it worse, I've found. I've improved my diet overall, but still include dairy. Gonna have to start getting plant milks now and the like... Thanks!
@itsdannyftw
@itsdannyftw 3 жыл бұрын
Good stuff David, thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise!
@Better_Call_Raul
@Better_Call_Raul 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent video! The best explanation I have ever seen... Ethnic skin produces more melanin. That explains why I tan easily. But why is it that my tan eventually fades away whereas the pigment melanin changes from acne inflammation (from over 20 years ago) still remains?
@imanz4718
@imanz4718 3 жыл бұрын
this was eye opening! thankyou!! i feel like i understand my skin so much better.
@ebe68164
@ebe68164 3 жыл бұрын
Also could you do a video on the best type of acids that are for darker skin and ones to avoid? Thank you.
@Pushpalatha13
@Pushpalatha13 3 жыл бұрын
Same question. Stay blessed 😇
@Better_Call_Raul
@Better_Call_Raul 3 жыл бұрын
@@Pushpalatha13 what is acid treatment? Never heard of this. Is that like TCA?
@ChaosAngel1331
@ChaosAngel1331 3 жыл бұрын
@@Better_Call_Raul They mean chemical exfoliation, where you use acids lile AHA'd and BHA's instead of scrubs, brushes, facecloths etc. As for which ones are best to use, this is what my dermatologist told me when I was dealing woth hyperpigmentation, if that's your concern. Lactic acid - max 7% Mandelic acid - max 10% Glycolic acid - max 5% , not the best exfoliator though as its a bit weak but it is great for driving actives deep into skin but avoid this with retinol as it will cause irritation Sailicylic acid - 2% generally Please note that all the above was made with more sensitive skin in mind and was chosen with the hope of MINIMAL burns from chemical exfoliation as most acids can make it worse. These may take more time but do have less risk. Thanks
@lola.odetola
@lola.odetola 3 жыл бұрын
my favourite subject matter!
@weezyffbaby
@weezyffbaby 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much for this information dr. Lim. Helps alot🌹
@rileybocan2540
@rileybocan2540 2 жыл бұрын
This was extremely helpful! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge!
@Renewed7
@Renewed7 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for making this video. It’s so informative and helpful!
@Pushpalatha13
@Pushpalatha13 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the informative video. Appreciate your efforts to educate darker skin. God bless you 😇
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
Cheers, DL
@m.younis9849
@m.younis9849 3 жыл бұрын
Oh Dr. Lavin.. I was just thinking about it.. I need it!!!
@villiejogalang9911
@villiejogalang9911 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for the information, I live in Melbourne and I really wanted to go at your clinic. My face is heavy with atrophic scarring and dreaming one day someone will give me the best treatment. Saving some money to visit your place soon. For now, I really enjoy watching your videos. Keep safe and be healthy always.
@Sexam124
@Sexam124 4 ай бұрын
I have the same kind I need help 😢
@cijicamp
@cijicamp 3 жыл бұрын
Great great video!! Thank you for this!! very hard to find
@paradiseplayer5103
@paradiseplayer5103 3 жыл бұрын
Your range of knowledge is brilliant. So interesting to listen to. I really wish you were in my country, could really use a more professional opinion. Good work 👍🏾
@true4585
@true4585 3 жыл бұрын
I loved this!!! Thank you ❤️
@l.hutsonspe1007
@l.hutsonspe1007 3 жыл бұрын
Seasons Greetings and thank you so much Dr. Lim. As always your advise is amazingly helpful. All the best to you and yours in 2021.
@---Johanna---
@---Johanna--- 3 жыл бұрын
Very informative. I have a lot of scarring plus sebaceous hyperplasia and was considering laser treatment. Thank you for all your videos and Merry Christmas to you and your family! :)
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
You are welcome. DL
@bugsbunny1592
@bugsbunny1592 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for covering in detail.
@Stocksbeginners
@Stocksbeginners 3 жыл бұрын
Dr davin lim great example your good experience.. ethnic groups... 👌👌👌
@ajamesu
@ajamesu 3 жыл бұрын
Very educational, thank you!
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
Cheers, DL
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
For much more content & in depth explanations of cases goto Instagram @101.skin I update this IG account daily. Video reviewing scar revision procedures pertaining to darker skin types. I have covered some new topics in this video, as a response to many FAQs. 1. The role of devices (how they are important in some cases, but how experienced specialists can work around limitations. 2. Variability of responses based upon biology & physiology 3. The role of dermal fillers. Thanks for watching. Davin Lim. Dermatologist, Brisbane. Australia.
@naliashanon7620
@naliashanon7620 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you. This is very helpful to us people of skin of color
@soukanairenemonroe4781
@soukanairenemonroe4781 3 жыл бұрын
I'm so ready!
@monikadillon7675
@monikadillon7675 3 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed this video. Thank YOU
@staceyhayes2586
@staceyhayes2586 3 жыл бұрын
Can you do a video for Acne Scars from Cystic Acne (a few deep depressions), not terrible. I had fillers, botox, fat transplant (take the fat from my thigh, and put into my face, it came out great), two laser treatments and I did UltraTherapy (it puts collagen back into your face), and I did my neck too. I had acne marks at 21, I’m 57 and no one believe’s my age (I have to show my license). Keep the video’s coming, it’s a very hard situation to suffer from Acne. Stacey NYC
@Sexam124
@Sexam124 4 ай бұрын
Hey who did that for you I have atrophic box scars in my neck and chin ! From electrolysis
@goindown71
@goindown71 3 жыл бұрын
Very informative!!!
@andreasr9297
@andreasr9297 3 жыл бұрын
I learn so much from you love your videos please post more on dark skin I'll I appreciate
@ashleighconstantine437
@ashleighconstantine437 3 жыл бұрын
Yesses!!!!!!!! Finally!!
@banandababa
@banandababa 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video! Please talk about stubborn post-eczema hyper-pigmentation or just eczema in general thank you!
@kaztazable
@kaztazable 3 жыл бұрын
that you soooooo much for this Dr. Lim!!!!
@robbycast
@robbycast 3 жыл бұрын
Dr. Lim I like your methods. Might u happen to know anybody in Southern California that practices at your level?
@cristinagarciatzvetkov1218
@cristinagarciatzvetkov1218 3 жыл бұрын
Hello Dr.Lim! It is a very informative video. By the way do u have any suggestion for any active ingredients you use. or any other procedures aside except lasers? like what you said treatment to minimize collateral damage. Thanks!
@hiyayathere
@hiyayathere 3 жыл бұрын
I would love to hear your take on facial yoga/workouts.
@allshereadsh3549
@allshereadsh3549 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this!
@muta_othernames
@muta_othernames 3 жыл бұрын
Really helpful Thank you
@ashiqueashhad8665
@ashiqueashhad8665 3 жыл бұрын
Oh it's helpfull... Tnx Dr lim
@omararreola5449
@omararreola5449 3 жыл бұрын
Hello Mr Dr Davin Lim i live in the USA i have skin type 4 do have any recomendations of top Dermatologist in the USA for darker skin type. You sound like you know your field quite well i want to make sure i get the right dermatologist to not mess up my skin just to fix some acne scars. BTW you earned a subscriber
@mobrll
@mobrll 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr Davin! First of all than u for all the informative vids! Am wondering if I can do a 15% tca peel prior to a MMN?
@sunlight4169
@sunlight4169 3 жыл бұрын
I have hypopigmentation from full-face ablative CO2 in 1997. I wish there was treatment for the hypopigmentation.
@aliciamilam5636
@aliciamilam5636 3 жыл бұрын
Thank for caring for darker skin to do a video..ot so hard to get even skin and back to the tone of your youth..naturally..bleaching creams r dangerous..it must be something that is natural to lighten the whole body 3 shade lighter that is naturally safe..tumeric and aloevera n apple cidar fixed my dark spots.and sunburn..i had..can u do a natural skin lightning video for darker tones..if u know any please..thank u.n your skin is perfect your amazing
@saistrology
@saistrology 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you. Do you have any videos on (lazer) hair removal for dark skin?
@hall904
@hall904 2 жыл бұрын
Any dermatologist in the U.S that you recommend? Specifically Florida. Also, could you make a video on pre and post care for microneedling in ethnic skin.
@matthewwatkins9014
@matthewwatkins9014 3 жыл бұрын
Hey Dr. Lim. Does ingrown hair scarring classify as acne scarring, or is it different? I had relatively smooth skin until my bread grew in, and now I have scarring in that area.
@MomoSimone22
@MomoSimone22 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr Lim, I've asked this question on another video, but thought I'd try my luck here for a response. My beauty therapist sold me a dermal roller that is 0.3mm. Is this bad for me to use? I don't put much pressure at all when using it.
@NurulIslam-jq9kh
@NurulIslam-jq9kh 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks a lot for the video. I read in a previous video that 0.5mm is alright for DIY use. Is that still the case?
@AL-wj3zo
@AL-wj3zo 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video! I have skin type 4 and I'm going to have the pebble stone scarring on my nose treated using electrocautery and mixto C02 laser with a really good specialist known for his work in the Los Angeles area. My derm has not mentioned anything about steroid injections. Would steroid injections be more cost-effective?
@Jay.King23
@Jay.King23 Жыл бұрын
need a specialist like you in Nicaragua
@RealTri4Lyfe
@RealTri4Lyfe 2 жыл бұрын
that before after at 18:07 is amazinggg
@weezyffbaby
@weezyffbaby 3 жыл бұрын
Can you do micro needling at home between picoway laser treatments for atrophic scars?
@besteee8808
@besteee8808 3 жыл бұрын
Hi David please say what happen lip around darkening ? :/
@justcommenting3515
@justcommenting3515 3 жыл бұрын
Early squad!
@KeelaLee
@KeelaLee 3 жыл бұрын
Really interesting video! 😁 You can say ‘Black’, not every Black person is African American
@true4585
@true4585 3 жыл бұрын
Good point. Yes, infact most Black people are from Africa and other continents except America. It’s so weird people call us all AA. 😂😂😂
@ajae...
@ajae... 2 жыл бұрын
@@true4585 In that case African is more appropriate than black unless the dark skinned person is Asian.
@memtombirajk7033
@memtombirajk7033 3 жыл бұрын
Dr Youn on one of his videos told that its bad to use hydroquinone on darker skin. What is your take on that one please let me know i wanna know.
@god563616
@god563616 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent video! Thank you!! I had no acne until I got on dialysis at 34 now it's horrific and I have dark spots. I'm wearing mask alone in my car due to embarrassment please help!!
@lutoninanay4305
@lutoninanay4305 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you, do you have some video about the hypertrophic acne scars on nose? And how will it treat them thank you
@bonitanamatovu8111
@bonitanamatovu8111 3 жыл бұрын
Hello dr Davin, can you please recommend a dermatologist in Canada (British Columbia preferably) for black skin; Atrophy scars and hormonal acne.
@S3r53
@S3r53 3 жыл бұрын
Very educative doctor. Thank you very much and merry Xmas 🎅
@Karliittah186
@Karliittah186 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr. Davin! Will mederma gel help as a spot treatment for my ice pick scars?
@aditiv9989
@aditiv9989 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the information. I have been researching this brand Banish 2.0, which uses a 0.5 MM Needle stamp and Vitamin C Oil/Cream for Acne scars. I have indented scars and terrible texture, it is confusing and scary. I will go for 0.25 now, I had one question - do I need to apply Vitamin C serum after that? I don't react well to most of the products out there, planning to do a small test first. Can micro roller alone sufficient?
@rikyjacho9653
@rikyjacho9653 3 жыл бұрын
Hey dr. Can u do an updated video about how to treat/eliminate chicken pox scars? some of your videos about this are very old and would be great to know what are your thoughts as of now..
@dailydoseofmedicinee
@dailydoseofmedicinee 3 жыл бұрын
Picking or squeezing acne can increase the risk for scarring👍
@aubsks
@aubsks 3 жыл бұрын
I live in south Florida. Can you recommend a doctor who can treat my acne scars. Someone who understands black skin. I have boxcar, rolling and ice pick scars.
@Zach-xm5wc
@Zach-xm5wc 3 жыл бұрын
If an Asian has really bad hyperpigmentation AND atrophic acne scarring, would phenol peels be a solution? I know it's against the norm but I read a study by Dr. Rullan that suggested there were no adverse effects if precautions were taken pre and post-op. Thank you, Dr . Lim!
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
Peter is the master or Phenol-Croton Oil
@manjubala1978
@manjubala1978 3 жыл бұрын
Request you to make a video on melasma for darker skin types
@Glamwithjia
@Glamwithjia 3 жыл бұрын
Please tell something about scarlet treatment for acne red spots and large pores ???
@ebe68164
@ebe68164 3 жыл бұрын
Dr Lim what about face steaming for darker skin? Is it good or will it bring more pigmentation?
@sidrahasad9942
@sidrahasad9942 Жыл бұрын
Heat triggers melanin production. It's best for skin prone to pigmentation to refrain from steaming and saunas.
@prideaside9099
@prideaside9099 2 жыл бұрын
Would you recommend bleaching cream prior to fractional layering for dark skin type?
@alexhahn4580
@alexhahn4580 2 жыл бұрын
Dr Lim, Any Acne Scar derms you could recommend in NY area? You give me so much hope, but Australia is a bit far lol
@EnglishLoveWords
@EnglishLoveWords 3 жыл бұрын
👍👌
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
Tx
@sadabsheikh5385
@sadabsheikh5385 3 жыл бұрын
Sir please do rewiew for chicken pox old scars can gone by treatment
@ayatarar1687
@ayatarar1687 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr Davin what doctors you recommend in Sydney?
@shan1xxx
@shan1xxx 3 жыл бұрын
The knowledge on darker skin is so refreshing. Would you be able to use these same methods for non-acne scars that are hyper pigmented?
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
Will do in the future. Cheers, DL
@shan1xxx
@shan1xxx 3 жыл бұрын
@@drdavinlim thank you ☺️
@romielynsaladaga9460
@romielynsaladaga9460 3 жыл бұрын
Hello Doc. What anesthetic are you using? Is it just topical anesthetic?
@calcio425
@calcio425 3 жыл бұрын
doctor, but what changes subcision, laser, prp detached from each other rather than combined at the same time? thanks if you answer ... it will be useful to understand this for me.
@lotuspowerr
@lotuspowerr 3 жыл бұрын
Oof, gotta admit I cringed at 15:42 🤢 Eeek! But thank you for the informative video! I’m in the process of researching some derms in my area for consultations and what treatments they can offer/recommend.
@sadiaali1295
@sadiaali1295 3 жыл бұрын
Dr can you please review Morpheus8 vs microneedling with prp for acne scars.
@alternateexpert7189
@alternateexpert7189 3 жыл бұрын
Hey dr Davin - could you say what are your treatment options for hyperpigmentation on the phototype for Indian , Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Middle East
@drdavinlim
@drdavinlim 3 жыл бұрын
Many in-depth options covered in previous video, cheers, Davin Lim
@rodrigooi123
@rodrigooi123 2 жыл бұрын
Doctor, you’ve said in a previously video, you don’t Like that much the 1064 picoway head. I’ve melasma and dark spots from acne, wich head of picoway should I need?
@kcweepy
@kcweepy 3 жыл бұрын
Do you know any doctors in Utah who expertise ok acne scars? I’ve had trouble finding someone. I know you mentioned Dr Phillip Young in Seattle.
@akshaynarshi827
@akshaynarshi827 3 жыл бұрын
Amy doctor recommends for removal of Cafe au lait spots
@eganplaysMC
@eganplaysMC Жыл бұрын
Hi, I'm East Asian and have hypertrophic/papular scars on my nose. What would be the best option for that? Would silicon tape be effective?
@markbandalaria8304
@markbandalaria8304 3 жыл бұрын
Hi! How about follicular macular atrophy? Please enlighten. Thank you!!!
@Better_Call_Raul
@Better_Call_Raul 3 жыл бұрын
Scar can be BOTH contour and color issue, correct? Video says it is EITHER one of the other. But I see many scars that are both pitted/depressed AND hyperpigmented.
@movie1226
@movie1226 3 жыл бұрын
Hello doctor i want to ask you is it superficial scar and deep scar is the same meaning?
@shinlin9832
@shinlin9832 3 жыл бұрын
Can collagen supplements treats acne if u can maintain the said intake?
@TJ-ko6fn
@TJ-ko6fn 3 жыл бұрын
Morpheus8 RF microneedling @ 3 treatments, 2 VI chem peels, and 5 treatments of picoway is what my derm has recommended for me. With just 1 peel and currently just did my 2nd Morpheus treatment and my god what a big difference already.
@ManUntdForever
@ManUntdForever 2 жыл бұрын
How are your scars looking now? Are they indented scars?
@Jilly-ug7js
@Jilly-ug7js Жыл бұрын
With acne scars ?
@banunamogos3554
@banunamogos3554 3 жыл бұрын
I have dermal and subdermal atrophy not as much as showing in your picture. But would u suggest me to do VIVACI ? 3 sessions I’d have to pay 1950$ it’s a lot of money for me if it want work.. or just tca cross ?
@krutikattige8340
@krutikattige8340 3 жыл бұрын
Question: I get pitted scars from acne. If I get subcision done, like I got all the 6-8 sessions done and I see 75 percent revision, can I get more sessions done again maybe a year later?
@SweetUareDesi
@SweetUareDesi 3 жыл бұрын
Wow- where are u located
@mrrainbow4337
@mrrainbow4337 3 жыл бұрын
Do you have any recommended/trusted doctors or clinics in Sydney? I don’t wanna waste money on useless or lazy consultations.
@betzy7560
@betzy7560 2 жыл бұрын
Is micro needling RF (genius laser) safe for latin ethnic skin?
@op060687
@op060687 3 жыл бұрын
I’m Asian and I have a surgical scar on the body. So if I do a laser scar remover will if the scar wound up being darker instead of lighting? I’m scared now.
@simple80ish
@simple80ish Жыл бұрын
Hi Dr, can you recommend me a dermatoligist in melbourne that can treat acne scars for mature skin?
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