Absolutely! ❤❤❤

The best archetype is the friends we made along the way.

The power of friendship is the peak of the meta

And the stax player still loses in the end giving joy to the table.

@@rafaelpieslak2120 it’s a great sacrifice to be the UNITER of the table Who else can be like the great emperor leelouch if not the stax player?

Word. Mana crypt is a worse sol ring!

Yeah I think ideal casual for me has neither card, or everyone running both.

Yeah broke MTG bums just have severe envy problems

Same

Most people get mad when they get countered, especially when it's not a game winning sequence. People come to play, not to tap lands just to do nothing. If you wanna play counters, fine, but you're 100% getting teamed up on.

@johnnycaralta I don't mind being targeted but casuals players do. If I can remove someone from the game by turn 2 I will do it in case they are playing something that makes harder for me to develop my board. Casual players are horrible at treat assessment and king make people because they are horrible at the game and deck building.

That's the biggest issue in nearly every format, and so many people mistake their wallet for skill.

I am also much more likely to spend money on a format if I already play it. If I can play cEDH and slowly buy into a deck I am far more likely to do that. Not if I have to pay several thousand dollars to even start playing (and potentially finding out I dislike the format/deck).

@@desertbomber My biggest problem is paying all that money just to play the same handful of matchups over and over again. It's a lot like fighting games in that sense. I could never just use one character all the time.

The main argument is that stores need to run sanctioned events. Playtest cards are not allowed here. (Any event using Eventlink). I dont have issues with playtest/proxy cards, WotC however do. I think it would be healthy for cEDH to have playtest cards allowed officially. - Store Owner

If you can't afford the game don't play. Simple.

Yea it’s all Thassa’s oracle/demonic consultation wins to them. Although they’ve never tried it hahaah

😆

Came here to say this

The average casual player crumbles to light interaction

@@itzmimz8238accurate lol, "😮 oh boy, youre attacking me with your creature? Idk how Im gonna come back from this"

It's definitely at its best with decks that have unusual combos that are hard to interact with.

I really only apply it to decks that seem to have no competitive advantage with their commander. Like pretty much every variant of TnK colors actually has a reasonable edge, same with any deck that can go faster, win through different interaction, etc.

@@LemorasCards that’s fair. You used that as your example in the video but I didn’t realize exactly what you meant. This was a fun video. Would make for a fun recurring series.

In which way? Those so called op cards in cedh are very weak in casual besides a few amount of expensive cards

@@zandaman802disclaimer: I mostly play casual, and prefer it. The main reason I have a cEDH deck is for when I want to play at a balanced table without anyone getting salty because they know what they signed up for. I find a lot of casual decks crumble to interaction, a lot of players are bad at interacting with the stack, have poor timing, and bad at politics. cEDH is exactly the same format as EDH it’s just played at a higher level. You can expect that people who play cEDH are generally higher level players

Yeah I think especially considering a lot of those spells aren't trying to be cast on turn 1/2 necessarily. Competent players/deck builders are well aware of how castable a card is.

​@@LemorasCardsI certainly agree to an extent but you also have to keep in mind how much you end up mulliganing as a result of bad hands. You mentioned how mulliganing to busted cards is something you should do, which I agree, but it's worth noting that your busted fast mana mostly makes colorless mana, rituals only make a single color, and colorless utility lands are often bad top decks that affect the math for calculating outs on close hands. Getting buried from a resource disadvantage in a midrange meta due to not being able to curve out at all is a realistic expectation, so reducing the need to mulligan by reducing lower pip count cards and increasing land count by 1-2 lands (in more midrange focused decks) is good. Also, regarding which decks are playing all 3 of those cards, Dauthi is out but Tivit, Blue Farm, and Atraxa all often play Beseech the Mirror. I tend to see it in more Atraxa decks, which is a deck that also plays more colorless sources than normal since it plays Delighted Halfling and Grim Monolith in addition to the typical colorless producing lands and fast mana. That deck in particular is a mess of mana fixing.

True, I have seen some not opt to run it but that's a deck where the card can make a lot of sense.

Yeah, it definitely happens and it sucks when it does.

I've thought about running it and similar cards in so many decks but I've never pulled the trigger on it. I think it's at least worth testing if you're interested, the idea is solid.

In my experience, it makes you the archenemy. In a 4 player pod, only your hand remains hidden, so people will overvalue whats in your hand, at least in casual...

Yeah I have some issue with things that are done or not done by the RC, but I ultimately don't have a preference for a WotC takeover or think anyone who is against it is wrong, I just acknowledge it'll probably happen at one point, if not publicly at least to some extent behind doors.

@@LemorasCards to that... we can truly both agree

It's not that every deck plays exactly the same, but a huge amount of them have a ton of the same staples and play patterns. Especially within similar colors, you're going to have a lot of decks that make mana, setup a way to get cards, and try to win behind protection, usually using the same cards to do those things. Obviously, moving into different archetypes with very different color identities, the decks will feel more different. Even the three decks you named are all viable successful options in their colors. Maybe the best example is the differences between rog/si and any random, poorly performing grixis deck. Play patterns are gonna be very similar, but very often you're basically nerfing yourself choosing to play that over what rog/si or tnk give you, especially if that deck doesn't offer a unique play pattern that stands out. This point is also mainly for players I see (usually newer) who experience a lot of frustration by feeling some obligation to be different and getting worse results than they could with little to no gain.

They use an ELO system where the winner gains the losers ELO, and a draw sees everyone lose points.

@@LemorasCards reminds me of chess, which honestly would incentivize people to be more competitive so i would welcome it to come over

Gaddock Teeg haters in shambles right now.

@@LemorasCards Hahahaha

FWIW those enchantments are fueling Dockside when you don't have a hate piece in play. That's why Ellivere decks tend to play 8+ pieces that hate out Dockside. Additionally, Reyhan Tymna is usually a stax/taxing midrange deck, which gets punished by decks that try to go larger than it like Tivit, Atraxa, and Kinnan. There doesn't seem to be a great deck for addressing both without just going underneath them, which means you're playing a risky gambit into both of them.

@@SiusBleach Actually I can beat Tivit and Atraxa (Doorkeeper Thrull & Trouble in Pairs). Ellivere is pretty strong though. But I've had a lot of success beating blue farm. I can also answer Kinnan & Sisay with Drana and Linvala Dockside hate in my list... Doorkeeper Thrull, Null Rod, Stony Silence, Collector Ouphe, Dauntless Dismantler Aven Interrupter can slow it down, Silence and Orim's chant can make them lose the rest of that turn... So there's a lot of flexibility there. I usually have artifacts shut down pretty quickly anywhere from turn 1-3 most matches. The ironic thing is I'm more likely to lose to Ellivere than any of the rest of those lists

That's one way to phrase "I'm an ignorant moron".

Yeah I think players sitting down at a table with Rog/Si and TnK should be fearing both, it's just easy to vilify the deck known for being faster first and the Midrange list take advantage of that when they're the actual threat not long after.

He's just a little guy...and his 10/10 token friend.

But you are still saying it matters. If it affects your deck building, mulligan strategies, and how you respond to your opponents then it clearly matters. If you need to adjust your pay to the seat order, then it matters. The only way it wouldn't matter is if you literally played the same regardless of order. A better way to word what was likely their intended statement would be "seat order doesn't affect win percentages, how well you play the seat you have does".

@@MooFishies I see what you are saying, and it is a very valid point. I'm personally seeing it in a different way. If you prepare a deck to handle all situations (highly improbable, I know), then it really doesn't matter. All you have to do is play accordingly. If I go hiking, and bring all the tools I would ever need to deal with any situation, I won't have to worry about which situation it is, because I have the answer. Basically, I am saying that if you make preparation the priority, then nothing else really matters. I hope that adequately shows how I see it.

@@MooFishies on the same note, it very well may be poorly worded like you said. I just wanted to point out what I understood it to be and why it made sense to me.

@@str4ypanda I agree with all your points, I think we are pretty much saying the same thing just in different ways.

Y’all understand 🫡

They didn't make their own banlist because nobody wanted to actually make a new format/split the format, they just wanted to play the existing format at the highest powerlevel.

They did, it's called Conquest. No one plays it.

@@desertbomber More addressing the "No more RC" bit of the video. There are already social factors that separate casual EDH from cEDH, so it's strange to me that they aren't separated since it's already considered a faux pas to per se, bring a cEDH deck to a casual or optimized pod. Or maybe it would have solved nothing and players would have stayed true to their nature and have found something to complain about regardless.

​@@thetimebinder Don't worry it'll catch on any year now! In seriousness though, I just think they changed too much from "standard EDH" and was too much for folks to latch onto it.

@@Ham.bone. Its also considered a dick move to bring a high-power deck to low-power or precon table. That has nothing to do with seperating a group of players out of the format. Also unless those players want to actually have their own format its not gonna work anyway. You can't just say "we are making cEDH seperate" and all the people who wanna play the best deck are gonna say: "Oh yeah of course we are gonna leave". Its like telling a spiky modern player to just play legacy when they don't wanna play legacy they wanna play modern.

SCORCHING take haha thank you!

Same in Rog/Si, havent tried going that low in Rog/Thras or TnK yet.

If they got rid of or at least reprinted the Reserve List staples the problem would be solved. Make the true duals, mox diamond, cradle and LED all 30% or more cheaper and now tons of people will be incentivized to actually play these older formats with the real cards. Right now they can't do that so they have to print busted ass cards to try to incentivize players to buy new product and not just save up for the old, expensive, busted ass cards.

​@price69420 Wotc are too scared to actually call the bluff of lawsuits that would be thrown out as frivolous. Likely Hasbro doesn't want to further piss people off. MTG30 is still a sore spot for all involved except the landfill where a lot of it ended up.

What cards should be banned or unbanned in cedh?

@@thetimebinder A great question. Right now everything should be unbanned long enough for them to come up with a consistent way of banning things and then ban things consistently. Price point should not be a factor for banning cards while proxy cards are allowed. The point is consistency if they are going to ban things or just remove the list and let groups police themselves. If they make it an official Wotc format, likely a lot of cards get banned and very few come off.

Having the opportunity to use/gain resources first is obviously an advantage. There's a reason all those "turn 0 wins" have to start with nonsense like Leyline of Anticipation + Gemstone Caverns or something

I mean most decks can win t0 with a nut draw, it’s a powerful format. But very uncommon.

@@Zen-708 How tf are most decks winning T0? You basically need Leyline of Anticipation, which no one actually plays besides memes

​@@baconsir1159he said most decks CAN win on THEIR turn 0, not that most decks ARE WINNING "AT" turn 0. You're misunderstanding. There's a ton of cedh decks that ifnyou go first and you get a god hand or near God hand you can win turn 1 while your opponents are still on their turn 0. Thus the reason why seat order matters.

@@baconsir1159 t0 in this scenario refers to before other players have a turn.

That's...a take I Guess. They easily could take the format over officially. Wotc doesn't ban things to sell new cards in any format currently, so why do you think they would do it here?

Going in order: 1. Any number of reasons, if they find that there's any profit to be gained at all at any point in the games history, they'll do it. Whether that comes from designers or shareholders. 2. I think some cards check enough boxes for bannability like Dockside, Rhystic, Smothering Tithe, etc. And cards that have such an extreme stigma that are more powerful than game restarters like Armageddon effects that making those social bans more in line with a banlist that takes social factors into account probably makes sense. I have a video on bannable cards that goes into different sides of how I think you can reasonably approach a banlist as I think there are many rightanswers. 3. Yeah, i don't want one person to control everything, but in general, I get the impression that no one can get anything to get through the RC, I've seen/talked to other members express frustration. 4. A power level based banlist is always what we'll partially have. Many cards on the current list are there for that reason, and a gameplay based list will always be a thing as well which we've seen in other formats that have banned cards out of decks for logistics or meta health purposes despite not having unhealthy winrates. I don't think I would add or remove much from the list were I in charge, but I would probably strive for something more uniform, remove the concept of a signpost ban in favor of hitting applicable cards. I can't buy the idea that wizards ruins everything it touches and still has a game this successful made by them. Considering the lack of any activity by the RC, wizards is responsible for a huge amount of the growth of commander in the last few years by catering to it so much with cards focused on it and having entire design teams that work on it.

@@LemorasCards I don't think that "we would make more money doing it this way" is a good way to think about why something should happen unless you're the "we" in that statement (and you have a legal fiduciary responsibility). I understand why WotC *would* or *could* do it but not why WotC *should* do it from the perspective of someone who wants a healthy edh format. 2. As for dockside, rhystic, smothering tithe etc. What negative play patterns do those cards create? Cards are not banned because they are powerful, but because they cause some unfun play pattern. I wouldn't say that Tithe or Rhystic are egregious enough in any particular characteristic that they need to be banned. Dockside has been discussed thoroughly and I think it's not at a ubiquitous enough point right now to really restart that conversation. Armageddon and it's ilk bare the discussion of "what do we gain by leaving them unbanned" and imo that is their "fair" lines of play. When you have 3-4 walkers out, and no one has creatures out, an Armageddon is pretty effective at speeding up the game in your favor. I don't think this line of play is unfun or socially banned, but rather that the "bad" line of play of "armaggedon, do nothing, pass" with no backup plan is the socially banned use case that you talk about. This is also true with chaos cards, but those all have actual strategy and legitimate play lines to them beyond "well, maybe I get the good stuff". 3. And this is a POSITIVE. You do not want one person to have power because they don't represent the entire format with their perspective. It is incredibly important to the managing of a social format that a wide swath of different players with different perspectives are served as well as can be. EDH is not a popular format because it's incredibly competitive and tournament ready, but the opposite. 4. There are 0 cards on the current ban list that are banned solely because it is too powerful. When I say a "power level banlist" I mean that the top X most powerful cards are banned or whatever. Objectively low power cards like Coalition Victory that are AWFUL to play against because they would be ultra ubiquitous, and have 0 interesting play patterns would be cards you wouldn't see on a power level based banlist, but should absolutely be banned because of the nature of the format. I also don't believe that beyond power 9 (and those aren't signposts in the sense that they aren't mechanically unique, they are an optics ban for the purpose of "hey this isn't vintage, you don't need power 9"), that there are any signposts. I could and will argue that there aren't any cards that are either 1. banned because they signal what cards not to play but don't deserve to be banned, or 2. Have a play pattern similair enough with another card that both should be banned. I don't think that WotC being pretty good at managing tournament formats has anything to do with their ability to manage a social format. I fully believe they would be able to balance the format, but edh does not need or want to be balanced, it needs and wants to be fun. WotC is very good at making cards, and the RC hasn't fucked up in their management of the format, I don't see why that would need to change now.

@@Temzilla2 I really don't have time to discuss all of these points again, but my point about WotC involvement in any of these comments hasn't been about why I want it, it's about why I think it will happen. I don't have a preference because things seem fine at the moment and I don't know what they would do, but I also know that I think the RC/CAG's approach seems not ideal to me and that WotC has ran the game fine, so I neither fear or desire one approach one way or the other, but I do think realistically they'll want full control of the biggest format.

@@LemorasCards Fair enough on the how vs why.

Force of Will, Force of Negation, Endurance all can stop it as well and if you are hoping that one of your three opponents doesn't have an answer is a bold strategy that will get you through Swiss, but will wreck you in top 16

@@thetimebinder You can't counter spells if you're silenced....I already covered that above. You either waste your counter on the silence and still lose, or you don't counter the silence and still lose. The odds of a CEDH deck having 4 free counter spells in hand, 2 of which are specific to this situation, in their opening hand no less, is absolutely bonkers.

@@blankspace178 First, there are non-spells that can counter and disrupt combos. Second, I can counter your Silence and then Player B can then counter your combo.

@@blankspace178 but yes, if you cast Silence, then a bunch of mana, then Thoracle combo, you win. So what? Combos are allowed to win. Every Color and color combination can win turn 1 while also having protection.

@@blankspace178 the chance there are two free counters in the hands of your THREE opponents is much greater than you having a Silence, Demonic Consultation, Thassa's Oracle and the mana to play it all. Even assuming you cast Silence into an Ad Nauseum to get this off, that says way more about Ad Nauseum than it does about Silence + Thoracle. Even then Rog Si is allowed to win turn 1 sometimes.

That has nothing to do with cedh. That's just Commander in general.

@@thetimebinder by the end of the day you are still commander. Wizards still prints cards hindering other formats to push into your decks.

@@czairkolmoslink5952 Other than Initiative wrecking Legacy, what Commander cards have really wrecked eternal play? All the cards banned in Legacy recently have come from Standard sets or Modern Horizons. Banned Modern cards come from Standard or Modern Horizons. Few if any Eternal cards that were banned even saw Commander play. So what "Catered to Commander cards" wrecked eternal formats?

@@thetimebinder my argument is Card design as cards in standard do get tailored to Commander and commander players complain about a color being weak causing Wizards to overcompensate this happened with Green and White. Hogaak wrecked modern and they thought it just be a commander card. Unset being legal and losing their silver border was also because of Commander. There are more examples but the main point is commander has become a problem. Warping card design.

@@czairkolmoslink5952 Hogak and Unfinity are fair criticisms. I don't think Esper Sentinel giving white card draw didn't ruin Eternal formats. To be fair, plenty of Standard cards have wrecked Eternal Formats before Commander was a thing. If you complaint is that there are formats that WOTC should never design for, then that's an opinion you can have. Financially, Commander is selling a bunch of product for WOTC. Why shouldn't they make cards for it?

I usually don't. Like in my best deck for new players' tier list video, I did I recommended a decent amount of decks over it.

@@LemorasCards I’ve only done 3 tournaments since I’ve begun playing cedh and every new player in cedh has been playing blue farm and make the pods worse lol.

Not my Cradle 😢

@@LemorasCards Nevermind cradle can stay 🥹

Scalding take lol

Cedh doesn't care what is "boring".