TLDR. Barefoot shoes are good, but also they’re bad.

If all CEOs did this, the world will be a much better place

I wish all CEOs would know their sh*it like Steven. Yes, he talks a lot, constantly bordering on being annoying. But his talks aren‘t empty. There are few people on this planet being as knowledgable and passionate about barefoot running is this guy. He‘s a walking compendium always having an answer that‘s more than just personal opinion. Thanks for doing this talk and posting it.

I love the willingness on both sides to actually have a conversation. What a revelation! Thank you both for doing it.

Through this video I learn to appreciate Xero better as a company. I love how his CEO is willing to speak to anyone openly about his products. I think everybody here would love to see that same openness from other companies.

I had knee replacement 4 years ago. I had some serious issues develop with my foot afterwards and had real troubles with every shoe and boot I wore afterwards. I lost my ability to hike more than a mile without real pain and circulation problems. I made the switch to barefoot shoes and the troubles I had began to quickly subside and since I am able backpack and hike 15 plus miles with no problems. Anecdotal? Maybe, but I'm here to say barefoot shoes restored my ability to backpack miles.

As someone who was grossly morbidly obese back in 2021 and could not wear any conventional shoes (they never fit due to lymphoedema and swelling from being so overweight) barefoot shoes (Xero shoes) were a discovery that helped me so much. The sides don’t come up as high which is great if you have ankle swelling and they allowed for the feet to fit (most days) because of the wider toe box and design. They allowed me to be able to go outside for walks or to run errands instead of being stuck inside with no shoes on. Without barefoot shoes I would not have been able to work, live my life, and lose weight. I love barefoot shoes and will not go back to conventional shoes even though they now fit me without any issues. I don’t care that people at the gym here look at me funny when they see my shoes (KS is a bit behind trends).

Dude had so much more patience with Steven interrupting him than I ever could have. Props

This is a fascinating conversation, between the CEO of my favorite sandals, and the guy who helped me strengthen my lower body for he trail running that I love do to in those sandals. Thank you both! Also, I'd like to learn more from Steve about the weird hip-swinging, effortless hill climbing.

This is how actual learning happens. Now we need all governmental bodies and learning institutions to adopt this style of discourse over contentious issues. Well done, man. Cheers to you both!

How refreshing!! Two people actually getting together and intelligently and calmly discussing a topic! Cheers to these two men!

Steven Shahen is the man. Love that he did this and had a full hour unedited convo with you.

Really helpful video. I hope Steven’s wife talks as much as he does and/or is very confident. This was 25% conversation and 75% lecture.

Roughly 2yrs ago I entered the barefoot world. By using Chase's suggestions (ie movement/exercises/balance/gradual changes, humble explanations), my transition to literally walking barefoot and wearing barefoot shoes was smooth and enjoyable. Awesome video... thanks again Chase 😊🌅

From this conversation, I have learned several things: 1. That the transition to the type of Barefoot footwear can really be a task not as simple as it may seem. 2. That most of everything that is said and talked about this type of footwear is not supported by scientific studies, so you have to be very cautious about everything you see and read about the subject. 3. That the experience that is worth for one in the transition to Barefoot does not have to be valid for others. 4. That I am not alone in the problems that I am having in the transition to Barefoot and that surely many other people are having problems similar to mine. 5. That the brain has to be given time so that it also assimilates the change that you are printing in your body, that is, it is not only a physical issue, but also a neurological issue. 6. That the CEO of Xero is a person with great knowledge of this subject and that he is passionate about the subject unlike what probably happens with the CEOs of other brands especially of non-Barefoot brands, where the push that moves them is probably a more economical than therapeutic issue. 7. That Xero’s CEO seems to be a really very close person. I wonder what it will be like to work with him in his company on a day-to-day basis. De esta conversación, he aprendido varias cosas: 1. Que la transición a el tipo de calzado Barefoot realmente puede ser una tarea no tan simple como puede parecer. 2. Que la mayoría de todo lo que se dice y se habla de este tipo de calzado no está respaldado por estudios científicos con lo cual hay que ser muy precavido con todo lo que uno de ve y lee sobre el tema. 3. Que la experiencia que vale para uno en la transición a Barefoot no tiene porque valer para otros. 4. Que no estoy solo en los problemas que estoy teniendo yo en la transición a Barefoot y que seguramente otra mucha gente está teniendo problemas similares a los míos. 5. Que al cerebro hay que darle tiempo para que él también vaya asimilando el cambio que estás imprimiendo en tu cuerpo, o sea que no es solo una cuestión física, sino también neurológica. 6. Que el CEO de Xero es una persona con grandes conocimientos de esta temática y que le apasiona el tema al contrario que lo que probablemente suceda con los CEO de otras marcas sobre todo de marcas no Barefoot, donde probablemente el empuje que les mueva sea una cuestión más económica que terapéutica. 7. Que el Ceo de Xero parece ser una persona realmente muy cercana. Me pregunto cómo será trabajar con él en su empresa en el día a día.

Yes, Part 2 would be good...let Chase talk!

What should have been said, is the honesty to admit as a company selling an idea that these shoes are better for you, that they are not actually better for everyone, and they dont truly know why that is. He's skirting around the question. They do not yet have scientific evidence on why some people cannot adapt to minimal shoes, and why some people can, and he should own up to that. Not compare his company to Nike to give the impression that they are therefore the lesser evil because they assume they have less injury rates... For a company who seems to be about helping people, help people properly, invest into studies, understand the impact your shoes may have on people long term, and be honest about that impact.

So cool to see you guys discuss this issue! I’ve been a “barefoot” footwear user for many years in a very active lifestyle, and my experiences run parallel to your own. Adopting minimalist footwear is a project that requires a long term game plan, wearing these types of footwear without paying close attention to your body mechanics and health throughout the whole process is a mistake I see a lot of people make. There is just simply such a dramatic difference in the way I walk with barefoot shoes, that changing back to regular shoes requires almost a whole different way of walking.

A conversation that I never knew I’d be so fascinated by. Well done, lads! A great open dialogue that was very eye-opening.

Thankyou for this! It’s crazy seeing a ceo actually take time to not only speak with their consumers but state in a factual and non-provocative way their argument.

this was honestly so great to hear. Really good info for him to talk about how to acclimate and reawaken your nervous system to start realizing HOW to run barefoot again. This is actually what I've struggle with recently, feeling like Im going into old foot posture issues even though my foot now is much stronger than before i started (9 months ago)

As a person who has run in barefoot footwear or barefoot since 2009, I have been successful (except when I wore a brand that rhymes with Merrell on a treadmill) despite not knowing that I should do so gradually. Please do not follow my lead on that. Steven Sashen is a smart, knowledgeable speaker on the topic making this video informative and enjoyable. Thank you, Chase, for allowing yourself to be vulnerable and producing the video.

Excellent. I love it when two rational people actually have a meaningful adult discussion to hash out perceived differences!

This was extremely helpful and educational. I greatly appreciate both Chase and Steven for their focus on discovering the truth about biomechanics in general and for their willingness to civilly discuss and debate the finer points of this sub-topic. Thank you!

This is pretty amazing, this was great to watch! I’m new to barefoot shoes and I have so much respect that the CEO Xero shoes came on here and broke this stuff down. Also props to the channel creator for talking with him and trying to hold his weight in a conversation with a very passionate person.

How to Lie Using Statistics is an excellent book that I highly recommend everyone read! Don’t be duped by stats. Also, thank you to BOTH of you for making the video and doing the adult thing and actually having a conversation (what a concept!) about your disagreements. This was so informative and I learned a lot. As a newish hiker looking for the right shoes for me, I really appreciate the knowledge that was brought to the table on this one. THANK YOU 🙏

Thank you for this talk. And I appreciate you standing your ground on not being entirely talked over. I want to be able to believe in this system as I am considering progressing into minimalist or, I guess, anatomical footwear, but I can’t trust opinions forced onto people from the barefoot side of the argument just as I can’t from the opposite

The frequency that he asks you to pause shows how dense the info in the original video was, great job!

Learning so much from this conversation. Thank you. Learning currently and researching before I buy a pair of more minimal shoes at 56. My feet are being a challenge and I am finding your exercises and knowledge have been so helpful. I am on my feet running around on a hard surface in a building for over 8 years ; it’s taking a toll! ❤

As a climber and xc skier (two sports with narrow, specialized footwear), the discussion about how wearing healthy footwear the rest of the time being what really matters was really encouraging. I tried barefoot running when it was popular in the early 2010s, but got injured. I didn’t transition well and it turns out that I wasn’t really wearing the right shoes. The Merrell barefoots definitely weren’t wide enough in my toe box. Thanks for this realization too. My current struggle is transitioning slowly enough, since my mainstream footwear is really uncomfortable now and hurts my hips.

Interesting chat. Glad you shared this. It's not easy to get called out on. I've been using barefoot shoes for almost 2 years now and collected way too many. I wear them daily and stand hours a day on hard surfaces. It took me 4-6 months to relearn how to walk when transitioning and I'm still learning something new. I still treat them as a way to train my walking gait. I still wear trail runners on most backpacking trips but hope the 'training' with barefoot shoes keeps my gait the same to prevent injury. These days, daily ankle, hip, and shoulder mobility exercises has been great. Interesting he brought up Feldenkrais. I watch some Taro Iwamoto KZfaq videos for pain treatment.

Man, I'm a brand new barefoot guy (just been walking in my new Xeros) and this video was huge for me. Thanks for putting it together, y'all we're both great communicors and respectful

As a person with genetic flat feet I appreciated this information personally ❤ loved the business, legal, and neurological insight. TRULY helpful in navigating a very frustrating “social” debate that feels important to my health and life capabilities. Thank you both

In hopes that this reaches the Xero shoes team, I chose Vivo over Xero because I wanted my trail runners to have the potential to be an everyday shoe as well. Right now, I just can't get behind the design/colors of Xero shoes. Hope this feedback helps!

I love that this man wanted to join in conversation. If you know your subject, experts can disagree but one should not be afraid to engage. It's how we advance.

I read Born to Run when it first came out, and it got me into running out of a mostly sedentary lifestyle. I started with a forefoot strike (on the couch-to-5k plan), and shortly after finishing a couple 5k's, I switched from running shoes to fivefingers - they became the only shoe I've used for runs and workouts. I even completed a handful of spartan sprints in them. The only "regret" that I've had about them is they make the footlock on a rope climb very painful. 🤷

Love that you both are so open to hearing each other out and have an open conversation. Still am pro zeros as an ultra runner and even own a pair of their new born to run zelans, but I still have some days where my feet are fatigued and I switch it up with other styles of shoes

Super insightful conversation and was a joy to watch-love Steven’s conversation speed and energy! I know most people find this annoying, but it’s refreshing to hear someone who doesn’t sound like he’s mentally stuck at parking lot speeds!

Respect to both Steven and Chase for doing this video! Hope to see more of this in the future. What’s your experience on the xeroshoes with your recent hike, Chase?

I wear flat wide shoes and I'm good. I wear regular sneakers, my back hurts and my feet can't move. Awful! It's not brain surgery. It makes perfect sense! I'm a size 6.5, women's, regular ( I don't have a wide foot). Very active. The flat, wide toe box shoes changed my life.

Fantastic interview. Great to hear the discourse - when the dialogue stops (not just around barefoot) we start to get serious problems. I'm a barefoot hiker, every day-er, and moving in to incorporating into running. I have Vivos, Xeros and (you may not have heard of these) - wildsole sandals - based and made in the UK. New company and they are seriously on it with their sandals. I follow you Chase, and have subscribed to your Elements course, I get a lot out of your incorporating breathwork, movement, strength, flexibility, gear etc., and your phys training background... So it's great to hear the conversation with Steven who seriously knows his stuff around physiology, neurology / proprioception, etc., and puts the real misinformation culprits in the spotlight. Really got a lot out of this from both of you.

Nice discussion. I spent a long time researching the use of barefoot shoes before transitioning, and my main takeaway from reading articles and watching videos was that barefoot shoes will probably improve your experience of walking and running - but you do need to adapt.

Thank you for having an intellectual conversation about both sides of the barefoot shoe argument. I have huge respect for you and Steven after listening to your respectful discussion. This is SO MUCH BETTER than a s&$#-show shouting match. I’ve been running for forty years and have come to my own terms with barefoot shows, using them for specific purposes (including walking and strength training). BTW, we will be having the same argument/conclusion over the problems with “super shoes” coming soon. Thanks again Chase, this was excellent!

MAN, you're such a humble dude and I really admire your way of arguing for your point at the same time as you are eager to learn by listening. That's why you know so much, and I bet you don't have a lot of enemies. Cred to you for being a sport and such a good guy!

Great conversation! I respect you for having it! I liked your video about the industry and now subscribed after watching this! I wear Xero shoes and love them but am also cautious about ‘buying in’ completely to anything.

*I had the same experience with pointing toes and pulling at the ground. I discovered if I land more flat-footed and use my quads to push myself forward that my tibialis stopped hurting and my ability to jog longer increased dramatically.* Later I learned that some Japanese guy already discovered this technique.

It was great to hear from Steven and inside the top level of the industry, especially the challenges to all the strawman arguments that are used. Finally, some truth, vs click bait. The statement that that "Big Shoe" won't produce barefoot shoes because it would mean admitting they were wrong, really hits hard. Of course that, and the marketing sabotage aimed at the companies making barefoot shoes, makes total sense. Shoes are not a religion, they're a tool.....that's been turned into a religion. I started racing XC in '75 just a few years into the "Run like 'Pre (Steve Prefontaine)" movement that was sweeping the nation, via Nike, Runners World Magazine, and Bill Bowerman's invented shoes, which had been picked up by Nike and sold as the "Waffle Trainer." I raced through 2 years of college, and continued on doing club racing in the Half, and did 1 Marathon. In '97 I permanently injured my left knee while training for a race, and was unable to run after that. In July 2012 I purchased my first pair of Vibram FiveFingers (Bikila model), at the age of 49. Ran 7.5mi on the trails of the local 1,200' peak, that day. No pain, incredible experience, and I was back to running again!! I ran 27mi that week, on a combination of trails and road/sidewalks. NOT how to transition into barefoot running...but I'm competitive with myself, and just get after it. I'm 59 and still running in them. My daughter joined me in 2012, in 8th grade, and we still run together. She ran and raced in the FiveFingers and other barefoot shoes in XC, varsity, all 4 years in high school, and was the only member of the teams who was never injured. She also raced varsity track all 4 years, and raced all distances from the 100m to 3200m, including the 4x100m relay as the anchor. Very fast girl. I used the FF's to spool my training and be able to do annual rim-2-rim runs in the Grand Canyon, and have done 10 in 8yrs, as XC runs (no poles, no walking the ups). I've also run 4 rim-2-rivers, racing down the S. Kaibab in attempts to get to Black Bridge in an hour (fastest time for me was repeatedly, 1:15min). I do other "big" runs in Sequoia Nat'l Park, and Kings Canyon Nat'l Park, which are 4hrs drive away. Was just there running last weekend, in the July snowpack! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/eq2VmpOhl9i2hWQ.html I'm currently wrapping up the recovery of having Open Wedge, High Tibial Osteotomy surgeries to straighten my life-long bowed legs. Surgeries were in late Jan '23 and late Mar '23. I ran for the first time at 90 days after the 1st surgery, which is unheard of. It's now July '23, and I'm already back to normal, long distance, trail running, and am probably a year ahead of the predicted healing schedule. My Ortho doesn't understand it, and has never seen anyone heal so fast. Yet here I am, turning 60 in less than a month, still running in FiveFingers, and currently training for another R2R run (I run them. I don't walk the ups or use poles) in the Grand Canyon on my birthday. It'll be my 11th, since 2015, plus 4 Rim2Rivers since 2020. All in FiveFingers.

What a great interview, you both earned a subscription from me, you’re both saying things, and asking questions that I’ve asked. Great conversation

Great conversation, respect to you guys for this. It is increasingly rare to see that people can discuss with class certain things on which they have a different opinion.

I switched to Whitin barefoot shoes 4 years ago for everyday use and their trail runner for hikes. No painful transition and it has helped my foot and back pain immensely. I’ve been itching to try the Xero Alpines for this winter and moneys tight but after this conversation I’m sold on trying out Steven’s shoes due to this great conversation.

Love when you SPOKE UP to him and said youve spoken a lot now let me finish! Good job! I enjoyed hearing both of you. Contemplating buying the xero prios but the reviews say they tear apart fast... 😮

Thank you both for having this conversation, I benefited from listening to the both of you discussing a topic with respect for one another.

I own xero shoes and I love them. The ceo comes across as pretty annoying. I can’t stand people who interrupt and also talk in circles or not directly.

Chase, you’re a champ for putting up with all the interruptions! Great conversation though. Learned a lot.

You exercised lots of patience Chase !

Chase, you’re an excellent listener and this allowed the message to come through. Great overview on barefoot shoes in general and on the I industry. I appreciate the CEO’s willingness to speak openly.

What a great video! Awesome dialogue and very informative to watch as someone who just bought a pair of minimalist shoes and will be implementing all the suggestions along with doing more research. Thank you!

Neat. I’ve drawn my own conclusions after lifting heavy and running in vibrams vs slightly more built up footwear - don’t go too hard too fast! Sometimes a thicker protective sole is the way to go. Tools in the toolbox

“I don’t have the research to prove it, but we’re undeniably better”. Unfortunately, the same reasons he says you can’t use “data” to criticize barefoot shoes are the same reasons he praises them. Also, for the record have both xero and vivobarefoot shoes. Agree with Chase that they aren’t everyone. And even if the industry isn’t continuing to explicitly make the claims they use to, if most people have the same understanding then most likely those claims are implied.

It was a really good conversation, watched it all at 1.5x speed, haha! Steven seems really knowledgeable, I just started following his YT channel too. My main personal issue with switching to barefoot shoes, as a hiker, is that there can't seem to be any way their grip could compare to your classic Vibram Megagrip / Salomon Contagrip outsoles. And because I've developed acrophobia during some years when I didn't have the time to go hiking, I really start to panic on steeper slopes or narrower paths as soon as I feel the grip is anything less than extremely good (Vibram or Contagrip level). On the other hand, my knees definitely are starting to hurt and produce weird noises ever since I started using these traditional hiking boots. Back in the day I used to go up the mountains in All Stars Converse shoes (I know, really bad idea), which resemble a barefoot shoe in many ways - minimalist sole, zero drop etc. And I do feel I used to be a lot less of a heel striker back then than I am now, after some years of hiking in Salomon and Salewa and stuff like this. Lately I did go for the Merrell Long Sky 2 (based on one of your videos btw!) and I do enjoy them a lot, the Vibram Megragrip sole is fantastic (although I guess it doesn't do any brain stimulation like a barefoot sole would do) but their upper seems to wear out really fast, which was to be expected when compared to something like a Salewa leather boot. So I would say I am still lacking an ideal shoe to do hiking in, which would probably mean wide fit (although I don't have too wide feet, fortunately, and I can put my fingers amongst my toes without any pain), zero drop, not too heavy but still durable and with an outsole that is still flexible and receives a bit of ground information, but not so much that it has to sacrifice the grip on more technical or steep terrain.

Big thanks to both of you! It's just great to see that there can be constructive discussion. I learned a lot from both sides.

100% of the people who are me are having issues transitioning to walking and hiking in Xero shoes. Mr. Sashen and I agree that he is not libel. I've also heard him speak enough now as he chose to talk over you wherever possible that I would choose not to hear his voice again. Thank you for advocating for non-freaks like me that need more support in and out of the shoe while transitioning to using our feet more naturally.

Thank you, gentlemen. I loved every minute. I would really like for barefoot/minimalist discussions to include the necessity of toe socks. While many people run without socks, most do not. I believe many enthusiasts are cramming their toes into an elastic sock, negating the possibility of toe spread. My journey away from clunkers has been a blast! Three years ago, I was experiencing ever-increasing pain and injury after runs. Initially, I “upgraded”my gym shoes to Asics Kayano but the frequency and severity of pain and injury escalated. In search of relief, I then purchased Mizuno Wave Sky, then Hoka One One Clifton, but each model left me with a new level of pain and injury. I ran in each pair of shoes until they were ready for replacement, so each pair was given a fair shake. Next, I tried increasing my time between runs; no improvement. Then, I decreased my distance and intensity; no improvement. While running in my Hokas one day and contemplating my impending On Cloud Stratus purchase, I began to read Born to Run. After reading McDougall’s book, I decided to pivot toward barefoot. However, I was already in great pain from two torn menisci, and arthritic ankles, knees, hips, and spine. I first began with zero drop Altra Rivirea. Within days, my heel braking was eliminated and injury-related pain began to subside. After a few hundred miles, I reduced stack by switching Altra Escalantés. As my running distance, frequency, and intensity increased, pain levels reduced and injuries eventually became nonexistent. After graduating to Altra Racers a few months ago, I had exhausted my options for reducing stack within the Altra brand. Recently, I’ve purchased Xero Zellen road shoes and Luna Oso sandals. I’ve been walking in them for weeks now. After my half marathon this weekend, I’ll retire my Escalanté Racers and begin running exclusively in Zellens. I’ve been gradually going through the same process with trail running and will soon be retiring my Altra Lone Peaks in favor of Xero Mesa Trails. Who knows what the future holds for this 53 year old, but I’ll certainly not be wearing clunkers ever again. Thanks again, gentlemen. This was an outstanding interview.

Loved the conversation, guys. It was an important lesson in nuance, and a wonderfully educational piece! WAY too few likes for the amount of views this has gotten. Also, I own two pairs of Xeroshoes which I wear at work and can say that my posture, calf, foot, and ankle strength has definitely improved. I feel much more planted and powerful when I need to run. I average 25-30,000 steps a day and I'm mostly walking on thin carpet and resilient flooring. I'm definitely keeping tabs on how my feet feel, but so far, no issues at all. Love them!

this video made me very grateful that I wasn’t so weak and frail that I needed this video. I transitioned because I had foot injuries. It freaking hurt for a few months then I got used to it..

Super informative video, really made me curious to try Xeros now. I've been wearing barefoot shoes for 11ish years now, really made a change in my posture and gait, gained a lot of foot strength and stability, and my toes are visibly more spread now in their relaxed state, so much so that I've just had to donate a couple pairs of old (also barefoot!) shoes that are no longer wide enough. I was sooo happy to hear about the neurological differences in adapting to different movement, as I am also aware that neurodivergent people, especially autistic folks, can often have poor proprioception and/or not register pain normally - thus making the transition more difficult. I can also add my N=1 memory of first sprinting in a Vibram to catch a bus... The first 4 footfalls hurt, so by the time the 5th landed I just switched my stride and started landing on the balls of my feet. It felt wonderful and liberating, and I've hated running all my life, yes, even back as a kid! So yeah, definitely we're all different and hike our own hikes and walk our own walks but for me, personally, and many of my friends and family, barefoot shoes have been an invaluable tool to regain foot health and strength.

Up until recently, I was a caregiver for a company that provided services for elderly and disabled people, as well as others temporarily incapacitated because of surgery. I was shocked and concerned by the heavy, stiff, constricting shoes prescribed for my clients who had a history of falling. I have no medical training, just hands on experience working with all kinds of people with mobility issues. One client, who I showered and helped with his exercises, etc. had developed what I called a frozen ankle. It had almost no movement. He went to PT but almost nothing was done about his ankle. Like a lot of elderly people who fall, he had fallen more than once and it was usually while pivoting to one side. I think that immobile ankle was my client's primary problem. I used to massage his feet and ankles after his shower and before our exercise session. It was almost impossible for him to do the toe lifts or heel lifts in our routine with those clunky stiff shoes, nevermind foot circles. And sadly, sometime after I stopped being his caregiver, he fell in the bathroom, hit his head and died. I am now on the other end of things. I had a heart attack 5 years ago, followed by a quadruple bypass that resulted in nerve damage, because I was improperly positioned on the operating table. I have severe SI pain and pain in my hip joints that makes it almost impossible for me to walk more than 5 minutes. And as I have become so sedentary, especially during the pandemic lockdowns, my weight has climbed and my overall health is awful. So I am determined to change. I am interested in these barefoot shoes as maybe a means of teaching my body to walk better. I walk barefoot in the house all the time. I feel a lot less pain walking indoors. I wouldn't walk barefoot outside where I live, though, because there ARE needles on the closest paved trail, sorry to say, as well as dog poop and broken glass. I also have Type 2 diabetes and am scared of any foot wounds. I would love to learn more about how to prepare to wear these barefoot shoes, and how to learn from and adjust to my body's feedback. Can you suggest where to begin? I will take a look at your other videos, in the meantime. And I just wanted to share that I have observed that shoes that are supposed to help the elderly really seem barbaric and counterproductive to me. BTW - I ran cross country in high school, played basketball and ran for pleasure in college, did yoga for maybe 20 years, rode my bike to work and back which was 20 miles round trip. Then I worked as a reporter for about 30 years and didn't have a life Now I am 69 and in terrible shape and it's incredibly depressing. I want the next 10 or more years of my life to be incredible and I need a fit body in order to complete a very active bucket list.

I wore barefoot shoes for a year and developed significant pain in both feet. Stuck it out for some time thinking my feet just needed to adapt before I had to give it up. For me zero drop, anatomical toe box, and a midsole work best and I’ve found topo athletic checks all these boxes.

I wonder what Steve would think of Anvil Rose thought of then xero brand as a whole. Barefoot shoes may be good. But a poorly/cheaply constructed shoe seems seems like a bad investment. I say this as a person who as also noticed the lack of quality within every xero shoe I have... At least compared to brands like vivo or even lems! BEARFOOT shoes has a few models that I think absolutely blow xero out of the water.

I wear only xero shoes! I was so excited to see you two having this conversation. Love you Chase I've been following you for awhile. Your easy to understand. As always more really good information.

I've watched both of you over the past several years, as I've become a big believer in barefoot shoes. I do love that you both were big enough to have this conversation. It seems to me that you're hitting on people's learned laziness Chase. I agree that is the case, and that may be the "they" Steven kept asking you about. Neither of you can change that, but you both should feel proud of yourselves, for pushing people towards educating themselves! Education and critical thinking should lead everyone to barefoot shoes, but it's an uphill battle to try and challenge people to adopt that new neural pathway to try to listen and partake in these conversations openly. Personally, watching your videos Chase, and wearing your shoes Steven, have tremendously helped me. So, thank you both for doing all that both of you do! Keep it up!!

Good on you both or doing this! It was great. I would absolutely watch a part 2.

I liked the introduction to rather have a conversation than firing off in a reaction Video. But what followed was more like a monologue than a dialogue with the clear intent to put the brand into a better light and not talking about the actual message chase told in the original video.

Im a lawyer the way he talked about the lawsuit is bullshit.

How refreshing to see people with different opinions, having a fruitful discussion, with the uttermost respect for each other. Well done 👍

Chase- Awesome video. Super humbling. I wanted to comment on pavement walking: I switched to Wildlings minimalist shoes almost two years ago, and I primarily walk on pavement (living in a major city). I used vivobarefoot minimalist shoes for half the Appalachian Trail (~6 months into transition) and I had ZERO injuries and foot issues, whereas other hikes had many issues. Not a statistic, but a personal story that you and Steven may not have heard yet! You're an inspiration! Hope all is well -Kellie

Within 10 seconds of him saying something like "nobody with integrity in the industry is making those claims" a Vivo commercial comes on and the literally say wearing their shoes will increase foot strength by 60% in 6 months. I run in five fingers, but he's full of sh** about the industry not making unrealistic claims

You're a good sport for doing this. Not easy. Well done.

Excellent conversation! I’m a walker/hiker, not a runner, so everything is through that lens. I love my Xero shoes. I also love my old school Chacos. Walking on grass, or sand or not so sharp gravel is a delight. Lightweight is fabulous. Changing what I do, I think, is better than being static. Again, cheers to you and to Steven.

I have been running and walking in barefoot shoes for 4 years, while at times, my feet still love to be pampered with cushioned shoes (especially during long run). My 4 years barefoot experience was generally positive with stronger ankle and calf, also better feet mobility and flexibility. I will continue to use barefoot shoes primarily as well as occasional padded shoes for certain occasions. That being said, feeling everything on ground is the best running feeling for me

He says that his company don't make those kinds of blanket claims, but on his site, "If your feet don’t feel as good at the end of the day as they did in the beginning, you haven’t tried the Z-Trail EV." ... Do i misunderstand or isn't this the kind of blanket over zealous marketing that Chase was trying to push back against?

It makes sense why this guy was able to build such a strong brand. Clearly a smart business leader who saw the opportunity to go against the grain

That was a truly enjoyable and very informative conversation ! I am not sure how I feel about barefoot shoes but I am now definitely more curious now to research further !

Very enlightening. We need more folk having balanced open sensible discussions like this in ALL arenas. The world would I think be a better place if so. Thanks!

The CEO didn't provide any documented medical research supporting his claim either. He kept saying: "some research .... " He can't give the source or direct quote from "some research" that he mentioned.

I have been wearing barefoot shoes since the Five Fingers first came out. I remember my first run with them and how free I felt. I then spent the next 3 weeks walking down stairs backwards as my calves took a hammering!😂. I think Case’s final point about manufacturers being more open about these are but a part solution to freer movement is a good one. Since I made the change I no longer get shin splints, hip pain and shoulder pain. But I do not put this solely down to the shoes. Keep the content coming and I really enjoyed this video.

Very nice of Steve as a CEO to have an open thorough dialogue & discussion to clarify most of the myths & questions about the barefoot shoe industry.

I really appreciated this video! I think that one central point of disagreement between you and Steven is this concept of 'the barefoot shoe industry.' He's *very* firm in limiting that to the shoe makers, but I think he's wrong. OK, he's technically correct (they're the industrialists, after all), but he's got a vested interest in keeping that group confined to a small # of people. From the perspective of a consumer, though, influencers with a wide reach (and arguably the popular press who write about these shoes) are *also* part of the barefoot shoe industry. Because those are the places where most of us learn about barefoot shoes and where we research different brands. Those folks are the experts. We don't look to the manufacturers for much info, because their materials are by definition marketing materials, and they aren't going to talk about any downsides, and they aren't going to acknowledge that there are some groups of people who aren't a good match for some shoes. [Me going on a bit more about why Steven is wrong to say that the 'just take more time' argument is a straw man argument] The issues you brought up in your first video are *not* straw man arguments - they're claims that some of the more ardent proponents of barefoot shoes put forward. And they're also valid ways that a lot of consumers can misinterpret the marketing claims that some of the manufacturers make. It's hard to retrain our brains, and it can be hard to know what our bodies are telling us if we're not used to registering that - this isn't what most of us expect to start doing when we buy a new pair of shoes. Therefore, even if we get the message he was saying in this video, we're likely to register it as something else. He says: 'Run for 20 seconds, wait a while, see how you feel. If your muscles are tired, try again for a tiny bit longer and repeat. But if you've got any more discomfort than that, see what your body's telling you.' Many of us hear: 'Run for 20 seconds, wait a long-ish while, see how you feel. If your muscles are tired, try again for a tiny bit longer and repeat. But if you've got any more discomfort than that, [wait for a while longer and try again, because how would I really know what my body's telling me?]' Yes, in those cases we the consumers are hearing him 'wrong.' But when a significant # of people all take away the same message, then something's going on. As he said, you can't dismiss a lot of people all saying the same thing.

I wore my Xeros for almost a year and at first I liked them quite a bit. Then I tried some brisk walking on sidewalks and developed knee pain. The only other footwear I had handy were some Teva sandals. I wore those and the pain stopped. Also I felt like the Xeros were not that well constructed.

Oh wow. I have nothing but admiration for the tact, and patience with which Chase conducted this conversation. As a critical thinker, and someone who works with bodies, I noticed that he let the man's words stand for themselves - let us draw our own conclusions as to how well-supported and consistent they may, or may not, be. Based on the 'evidence' provided, Chase was well vindicated to those who were able to hear 'the forest through the trees'. It speaks volumes for his credibility, and the extent of his knowledge, that he gave the man enough rope to hang himself but kept his own hands entirely off the noose. Bravo!

I had some hiking boots that I used to wear and after a few miles my hips and and knees hurt. I decided to try my Xero shoes that I wore only casually and went on a 5 mile hike and had no pain at all. I now use Vibram and Xero only for hiking, regardless of the terrain and feel soooooo much better.

Really appreciate the passion and respect the ceo for doing this video with you. Great job!!

I admire Steven's fidelity to precise language. The internet has normalized bombastic exaggeration, which I think is part of why people are becoming so polarized and afraid of other viewpoints: they see other viewpoints as much more extreme than they actually are. So, by insisting on precise language and proof of claims, he creates a calm sense of truth. Dude probably meditates.

Thank you for sharing. I was very close to try Xero and now I'm pretty confident I'll go somewhere else for a new barefoot.

This conversation was so helpful. Thank you! I am a new 2nd grade elementary classroom teacher. I am 58 years old and overweight. I had a sedentary position for many, many years. I was surprised by the foot, knee, hip and back pain I experienced being on my feet all the time. I love walking barefoot, and I am only in shoes when I have to go out in public. My daughter and her friend were talking about how amazing Hoka sneakers are for running. I found this video in my research process. I may just have to give barefoot shoes a try and good to know it is important to ease into it.

Thank you for this informative video. After my second pregnancy, I started to have so many foot, knee and back problems. That let me to spend large amounts of money on orthopedic visits, custom insoles and extra padded shoes. I could not talk barefoot on hardwood floors for more than 10 minutes. Then the pandemic hit and stated walking more barefoot around the house. Learned about barefoot shoes and incorporate them as my shoe inside the house. Now, I am on them most of the time. I do wear my old shoes from time to time and I feel like I am going to "tip over". During the pandemic I also incorporate strength exercises for my lower extremities. I love my barefoot shoes ❤.

@ChaseMountains Good content, although I found it a bit difficult to watch to the end (yet I did). All I will say regarding that is your patience, grace, and listening skills are admirable! ;-)

for the stats. very interesting conversation. would have been nice to hear a little more from Chase without interruption!

Transitioning to barefoot style shoes changed my life! I’ve loved running my entire life! Before I switched, I was frustrated because I couldn’t run more than a few months without facing some sort of injury. I tried everything the running industry told me I should do…but nothing helped! I read “Born to Run” and it started my journey of transitioning. I read over 30 books about the subject! When I first started, I did too much too fast and I injured my calf. I decided to go all out and re- learned how to run. I started by running barefoot for a couple hundred yards. I slowly built up my mileage…very slowly! I started wearing minimalist shoes and haven’t looked back since. Since then, I’ve logged almost 10,000 miles without a single injury that kept me from running for more than a week. Now, I run in my shoes with no socks and I keep them until I get a hole in the bottom of my shoe. I started using xero shoes a few years ago…when I start feeling a hot spot on my foot when I’m running I know I have a hole in my shoe and it’s time to buy a new pair!

Respect for posting this video in which it appears that Steven is refuting points, but is actually mostly agreeing while dominating the conversation, and using anecdotes meant to make him sound knowledgable, along with the mention of two logical fallacies, the straw man argument and the false dichotomy, while CM maintains poise, is unafraid to allow Steven to talk and talk, and the result is that CM ends up coming across as the more solid character. And I'm not biased toward either side of the argument, and this is the first CM video I've watched.