People forget that this is a game, and as such needs to accommodate the gameisms. Such as lack of accurate hardware

I honestly don't get the pushback on having a Trim reset control. It's a quality of life / accessibility addition to deal with the lack of force feedback. I'm always in favour of optional extra settings for players. (trigger guard is another I'd like to see a toggle for!) If you don't like it, don't use it, just like the other trimmer mode options.

@@RedKiteRender it baffles me too man.

damn man i am tired to argue about the trim reset button... it's like we are bad at Apache because we want it...

People like to impress some sort of superiority over others and get offended at the idea that someone else wants something 'easier' because it takes away from their personal sense of achievement. It's all rather silly.

Cheers! I felt it quite important to show the physical stick, pity i couldn't figure out a way to show rudder pedals too, so i made a point of making noise with them.

@@RedKiteRender I have a spare set if you need new pedals now ;)

@@RedKiteRender 3rd camera! haha jk

@@HuntressMediai thought of that too ;)

Cheers, In an ideal world we'd all have FFB joysticks really sad we lost affordable designs.

"old ass" better than the crap that saitek and logitech came up with 10 years later lol

@@ToreDL87 G940 was so rad.... When the hatswitches on the throttle still worked. honestly FFB is kinda gimmicky from the perspective of using the G940 for the last decade. wanna upgrade soon.

I have rudder pedals where I can easily unhook the spring (MFG Crosswinds) which I now use for helicopter flying: so much more intuitive and no tired legs.

@@tomshackell I also have crosswinds and I didn’t think of that either! Another great idea, thank you!

I do this on the Mi24, but leave trim on for the Huey. I’ll have to try pedal trim off on the Apache, I’m comfortable with manual pedals from years of IL2 German planes. Sounds like a good compromise.

Sometimes bugs become 'features' Haha It's such a shame we lost Force feedback sticks. So many people don't realise just how powerful they are!

Exactly. Great introduction into the video with the Sidewinder Joystick. I was like: What the heck?

Oh boy is that thumbnail a familiar sight

Thanks Fam 🤙🏿💯😎

Are they willing to disconnect the pedals from the trimmer like they did the Huey?

@@Knubinator just set the pedal trim option to the third entry: "No springs or FFB"

Would be better if they could make a double-press trim reset button. Eg. the first press would reset the trim by half, then the second would reset it fully. That could alleviate the jerkiness of trim resetting

I think the former achieves the latter haha. Duly noted!

@@RedKiteRender No worries, and a great video Kite, always loved your tutorials. Just one of those things I run into a lot and has become a pet peeve. :D

@@RedKiteRender no kinkshaming here

We have a real-life, mechanical "trim release" trigger on our SDZ-54 Perkoz gliders, for pitch trim. A trigger on the stick you reach with your little finger. Releases the pitch trim springs so that they move with the stick. Release the trigger and whatever angle the stick is at is now the trimmed position.

@@RoamingAdhocrat Yep, gliders use a simple mechanical "trim release", but keep in mind especially in gliders the pilot feels the forces acting on the controlsurfaces through mechanical linkage. A helicopter uses a hydraulic system, that feels totally different, if "trim release" is depressed or force trim deactivated completely. I had a chance to feel it once, but not fly it IRL. You can really move it without applying much force, like holding it with the fingertips. The hydraulics do the job.

I still remember when even the Ka-50 didn't have that option and we needed to use an AHK script to get there...

It's hanging in there, i do need to take it apart and replace the USB wire sometime soon though!

It always was the secret of success in Il-2 as well. It basically carried over to Rise of Flight (extremely good implementation) and BoX. Logitech tried in 2009 with the G940, but that thing had some major flaws and was pulled from the market quickly without the very much needed Rev 2. I still use my old FFB2, it basically hit legal age. It's my second one though. They both have a faulty twist axis and when that happened with the 2nd, I just bought pedals back in 2006. That way I made the step to have them and a backup stick at the same time. Never needed to pull that one out of the box though... this thing is rugged AF. And I know quite a bunch of people who bought a second or even a third one back in the day, just for the case they might need a replacement. This shows how great it was and still is. I mean, who's got a spare TMWH, Virpil or VKB around, just for backup reasons?

Trim in a Huey is totally different than an Apache.

patent trolls unfortunately.

I still use a 20+ year old MS Sidewinder FFB stick when flying in DCS. It's immersive and fun in VR even if the deadzone and plastic buttons may not be as great. Amazed it still works though. I do hope to see more main streamed force feedback solutions in a soon future if possible (and do hope the patent isn't renewed, it deleted the FFB from the flight sticks). Btw. I also love the Ah64 IHADSS integration in VR.

@@Roboculture any special settings for it? Mine tends to come back a little bit to the center every time I trim it offset.

​@@fermd83 I'm so sorry, answered and watched this while not having my equipment at hand. I repost an answer here as soon I got it and can run DCS in vr again. (It may take up to two weeks.) Guess I would have the same problem, hope to find a solution.

@@fermd83 Hi, Finally got back home and got time to messed around a little bit in DCS with the trim and my MS Sidewinder. And of course I got my self some other issues with the trim at first, it did correctly on looking at the joystick helper thingie (ctrl+enter), but the force feedback just kicked the stick in the opposite direction, like it reset the center as if it was mirrored. (It may just be me how's not used to how this should work). At a few times I got it to work like I wanted and I don't recall my stick to offset, if so not by very much. But have a theory that it has to do with the deadzone for our sticks, that does that, it stop sensing where the joystick are as soon the stick center itself inside its own deadzone. Fortunate for us, ED have now implemented a trim reset button. Sorry for taking so long with my answer.

We really need new consumer FFB sticks!

Why aren't there force feedback joysticks? Didn't the patents expire? Edit: auto correct

And even more so considering the advantage they get in the field of simracing with so much variety of steering wheels with force feedback.

@@TheMistral I think you could use a FFB wheel for rudder with some tinkering.

@@MongooseTacticool lmao

Exactly, or make it activate only when it detects joystick re-centering.

Usually less of an issue, just the setup wasn't quite ideal with the camera and tripod. Thanks for the feedback!

haha yeah.. the times i thought the shark was trying to kill me... it took a community mod to seperate pedals from trim before i finally started understanding how to use the ap banks instead of fighting it. now i just fly with ffb.

Coaxial rotors have their advantages!

As you speed up, the aerodynamic effects will stabilise the aircraft (same way a plane does) So you need less anti-torque (yaw) input to fly straight. You also generate extra lift, as a result of the two combined you burn less fuel in flight than a hover. The anti-torque becomes less effective at speed, because the airframe wants to weathervane back into the direction of travel, so rolling and pitch is necessary to change directions at that point.

I was really impressed how ingenious the magnetic brake system is when doing some research for this video! Thanks again Barundus.

Glad to be of service! Anything to reduce Apache insurance premiums haha!

Oh and here's another stupid thing. There's no need for the FFB FRIENDLY option as DCS disables the "return to center" BS when FFB is enabled automatically. So you can keep the special menu on "Central Position" mode and not worry about it messing you up when you use your FFB stick. If you forget to turn FFB on, you'll then be in the mode you probably prefer. (I wish I could keep FFB on all the time but it will just not play nicely with many of the DCS aircraft and even the ones it does work okay in have bad trim offsets that I wish we had an option to bias. I do use FFB on all the DCS choppers, but sometimes I don't due to all the time it takes to exit the mission/server and restart the sim to change the setting. Then the insanity begins! LOL!) It's no wonder nobody figures this out. Thanks again! ED have needed this tutorial since their first choppers came out!

Owned it for the last ~22 years!

You'd swear the Ka-50 wants to kill you starting off without any understanding of the interactions between trim and autopilot haha.

Haha I'm loving all the people who've spotted them, just wish i had the time to paint.. been waiting on my desk a little too long now!

Exactly. I don't understand why this is seen as a problem. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't use the weapons from the back seat and it was because of the trigger guard. Seriously? There is literally no point to have that be necessary. At least they are implementing a trim reset now. I saw someone ask for that and Wags literally just responded, "AH-64 doesn't have that." Ok dude, no one cares, this isn't the real aircraft and I'm sitting at a desk trying to fly it.

I have the VKB MCG Pro as joystick grip. I selected it over Virpil because it has better capabilities like the brake lever is an axis, and the flip trigger is as well an axis. Because these are axis and there is sensor to detect when the flip trigger is up or down, you can simulate multiple different real world grips. Example, in KA-50 you have the flip up trigger so that when it is UP, the gun is selected and the dual-stage trigger (red) is trigger for cannon. When the trigger is DOWN, the gun mode is disabled and you have your inner/outer stations selected and you launch the weapon by pulling the flip-trigger fully. Now do that same with the Apache now. But reverse. Flip trigger UP = Armed. Flip trigger down = Safety. The difference is that you say, in real trigger that safety is spring loaded, so it will cover the trigger again, where in MCG Pro you don't have spring to return it down. But you will get that exact same functionality that to fire weapon, you need to place finger under the safety cover and shoot. To avoid this "cheating", we can use exactly that programmed "safety up" feature, so because there is space to slide finger under Flip Trigger, you can't use trigger as you have not removed safety. That is the nice feature to just understand that you have a cover you need to deal with, and just by grabbing or pumping grip when flip-trigger is down will not fire the weapon so you must realize to remove safety. This flip-up trigger is amazing feeling in KA-50. And so as well in Apache. Binding to joystick only the real functions that real grips has, and same thing with collective (or throttle if flying fixed wing) that you really don't need so many buttons and features in any of them, you have less functions to make, and you enjoy with the limited real world grips functions as you are required to move hands around in virtual cockpit to operate aircraft instead just pressing buttons in throttle or joystick that is not suppose to have such functions. In my MCG Pro I have seven buttons in it. 1) UP 2) Virtual button for modifier (UP) 3) Down 4) Virtual button for modifier (Down) 5) First detent 5-50% pull. 6) Second detent when physical spring loaded button is pressed. 7) Full pull (90-100% scale) One trigger, six functions. Under there is that dual-stage red trigger, and I can change its functionality with that 2nd virtual button modifier, so I can have example PTT in the first detent, and then have Autopilot Override with second detent. If I go quickly to second, first detent is ignored and I can fly in Su-27 without disabling level flight as should. If I just pull first I get PTT, and then same time VoiceAttack reacts and listen microphone and I can speak the radio commands. And when I want to use missiles in BVR mode, I flip trigger down, now I can launch missiles with gentle pull to first phase, or I can quickly pull to select a gun, and then gentle pull will fire the gun. To deselect gun I either flip trigger up or I quickly pull fully and release and I am back to BVR mode (problem if need to go back to A-G mode). The axis are powerful features with virtual buttons. I have three buttons in the brake grip. It is full axis, but then there is one virtual button for 0-5%, one for 30-50% IIRC and then one at the end at about 95-100% And this way example when I am up in the air, I can command something with full pull when axis reacts only for wheels brake but as they are not extended you don't have conflict etc. I can make that grip as extra button for paddle switch in hornet just by touching that grip slightly. Or I can have it as modifier for T-rudders work as brake pedals for taxiing. But the key is that you take the programmability, and then implement real functions to closest possible right places. Example, the left mini-axis stick is in A-10 and F-16 the TDM 4-way hat. The center 5-way hat is the DMS hat. It doesn't matter to me that they are different feeling and shape, as both are programmed 4-way hats in secondary virtual hat mode to where I can switch when switching modules in DCS.

FFB is such a great lost tech. It was used a quite bit for gimmicks and random vibration / motions, but in sims, it was a game changer when implemented properly (like il-2 where the stick resistance changes with airspeed for example!) What I'd give to see it return, esp with a Warthog/Virpil compatible connector!

@@RedKiteRender I could not agree with you more. There was something very organic about it in the early days of IL2, really gave you a sense of trying to move control surfaces

Back in the day when people suggested you to get a Saitek X45 or 52, but hide the stick somewhere behind the monitor and use an FFB2 instead. And Simped Vario Pro pedals :)

I think it's silly to say that a trim reset button isn't realistic. The button doesn't represent a button in the aircraft. It represents the pilot moving their controls back to the center and setting the trim there. It's no less realistic than pressing a button to look left.

Default forces, think i had to invert the Y axis in FFB tune.