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I love when we get so progressive that we become misogynist. Very based

Dude made a solid argument. It was water tight, bulletproof. No way to beat it. I cant see a way to beat "Since no one really watches women sports, it doesn't matter if men dominate their sports." Truly the smartest man of our time

This is the first argument that actually made me feel gender critical. This is someone actively agitating to take away sports opportunities from 50% of the population to cater to less than 1%. Truly insane.

Bro’s entire argument can be summed up with one sentence, “in order to protect trans inclusivity, we must eliminate women’s spaces entirely”

This dude needs to just say "I care more about trans women than cis women" That is 100% what they're trying to argue at this point.

I love that the guy is progressive to the point of being full blown misogynistic and suggesting that a huge chunk of all women's sports is cheerleading

This poor dude actually thinks Serena Williams would be happy to be playing ranked 500 men in Tennis and losing consistently to the ranked 450 men assuming that she even got on a televised match in her life. Like sure, she's technically not getting any actual airtime and sponsorships, but don't you realize that she will finally be competing with the 500th best players? That's progress for women in sports, baby!

It doesn’t matter what this kid thinks, because he will never get a majority of women to agree to abolishing women’s sports.

"The feelings of this woman does not outweigh..." literally the argument used against Trans people and he's using it against cis women. Bruh

this dude basically discounting all of women's sport because he doesn't think it's important enough is actually nauseating

I miss the good old days whenever objective reality was just objective reality and we didn't have to classify and clarify every literal thing we say and do.

"20% of women leaving sports is worth 0.3% of the population being allowed to play, what's wrong with that?"

A lot of people who clearly have never played a sport in their lives have really strong opinions about how sports should be divided.

Sitting down for almost 2 hours with this guy should earn you some kind of medal. Absolute insanity

One of the most frustrating discussions ever. I never imagined someone's debate mannerisms and tactics could be THIS infuriating. The goal post shifting, dishonesty, bad faith arguments, the way points he acknowledges somehow slide over him without any effect. Oh man. Destiny has the patience of a SAINT.

When we created womens sports, we understood "woman" as "adult human female". Even if you personally define the word woman differently today, you will have to acknowledge that fact. So, we created sports categories for human females (girls and women), and we did have a reason for that. And those reasons where: 1) We wanted to give women the opportunity to compete among each other for 1a) Glory 1b) Money 1c) Safety reasons (in some sports) 2) We wanted to know what women are generally capable of (that's generally the goal of competition) If we add trans-women to womens sports, we will discourage all women (50% of the population) from doing competitive sports. It's pretty hard to train 8 times 2 hours a week just to be pushed out of top 3 by three trans-women who train half as much. So, we discourage 50% of the population from doing sports, in order to encourage 0.01% (or whatever) of the population? That simply doesn't add up.

If getting rid of the segregation is fine for cis women then why shouldn't trans women just stay in the men's grouping if it doesn't matter.

It is so wild to see these ‘progressives’ not realize how misogynist and deeply dismissive to women they are. I was rolling when he said/implied cheerleading was the primary sport for HS women, followed by volleyball, full stop. He’s so dismissive of cheerleading as well, like ‘oh, that stupid girl sport, who gives a f*k about that.’ This s**t is priceless.

If women's categories are so unimportant, then why is it such a goal to have trans women play in them. If we should eliminate women's sports, and trans women are women, then having them play in the men's division shouldn't be a problem. It would actually work _towards_ this bizarre goal of merging the divisions.. right?

Is there even a restriction that women can't compete in men's sports? I thought they were just incapable of being competitive.

If this guy is ok abolishing gender entirely from sports, and just having an open division where everyone competes. Then what's his issue with trans women just competing in the men's sports and leaving cis women's sports alone?

1. This dude has definitely never played a sport 2. This dude has an embarrassingly bad understanding of the long term effects of PED’s 3. This dude is the worst debater I’ve ever seen on this platform 4. This dude has an unbelievable lack of any kind of comprehension skill, couldn’t follow a single argument. Never seen anything quite like it on this scene. 5. This was a major black pill 6. Both of you were wrong about ultramarathon runners

The trans issue is the only issue where I’m not progressive on. I feel like trans and their supporters are disingenuous. Trans people absolutely deserve to exist freely, safety and with respect but to pretend there aren’t any differences is so unfair

People missing this point always drives me insane: Having an unfair advantage in sports has nothing to do with beating everyone. You could use drugs, participate in a race, finish last and you would still have an unfair advantage because of the drugs. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, it matters if you are boosting your own performance with an unfair advantage; for example by going through male puberty when your competitor hasn't gone through male puberty.

This is the most brain damaged argument I've ever seen. Not enough people watch women's sports so we can just get rid of it and the best women will still get recognition anyway placed 500th (what about the next 30 best??) But there's enough Trans women who want to compete that we can fundamentally change the way we have sports??? How is this dudes brain not imploding with contradiction. This is a literally insane argument, completely dismisses women and has zero logical base. Even by his own argument he's lost because he claims not enough people watch women's sports for it to matter. Arguing we can completely remove 50% of the population from the chance to compete fairly in anything. So how in the world are there enough Trans women for them to matter in sports???? I'm shook.

I find it hillarious there is 0 cis women in all these discussions.

I’m glad destiny keeps brining the convo back to the main point. A lot of these guys start talking about an million mute points away from the point

I never would have guessed that we'd be here arguing this stuff 10 years ago. Amazing.

“Women are kicking at D1 levels” “Wait what do you mean? Kicking in what” “I guess …football? I don’t know. It doesn’t matter” This person has never watched a sport in their life. 16:47

This guy is super insanely progressive, but also wants to remove women from competitive sports, but somehow advocates for that in a super progressive way. What a world we live in

Did they say Selina Williams 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Imagine the mental gymnastics of thinking not allowing women to be the best in their league and champions of women’s divisions and thinking 50% of the plane is a “small percentage” vs the argument that we should dissolve all categories in sports for 1% of society to feel better. Or “more fair”

This guy is so delusional. Venus and Serena Williams which are absolute legends in women tennis have easily been beaten by a man ranked 200. He is just okay to let fall these women into irrelevancy, it's so wrong at an individual level for these women with their incredible careers and at societal level for the women watching. He also completly misses the money aspect of having these gender category. Maybe the best women could get sponsorships but most women would not be able to live from their sport as they could make any appearance at big tournaments. The cherry on the top is that it would also wipes out trans athlete

Wow. At the point of being not transphobic, that dude went full on sexist. Fucking WOW

35:23 thats 100% true. All these people arguing over all these sports things have never compete in sports in any real capacity and its ironic that destiny has to point this out. He routinely has to bring this up. The people who argue this shit are just totally out of their depth and have NO clue how big the difference is

Who the hell is Selena Williams? Lol 🤣😆

Wow. He's completely willing to write off all of women's athletics for such a ridiculous moral point. What a horrible way to look at the world.

I gained so much respect for Destiny in this conversation. Not so much because of his position, but because he was able to get through a discussion with this moron. I wanted to brain myself less than half way through.

1:07:20 is when he lost the debate officially "Nobody is talking about eliminating women's sports *right now*" Accidentally revealed his true agenda Lmao

WE GOTTA GET SOME FEMALE ATHLETES IN THESE CONVOS

He says .03% of the population isn’t going to ruin all of women sports it is for the greater good, but since they are the minority wouldn’t the greater good be just how it is now?💀

When they're talking about a genderless sporting system, I just wish Destiny would have asked, "so you're okay with never having another female olympic medalist?" To not be able to realize that this proposition eliminates 60-70 years of progress is just insane.

This is one of the funniest debates I've ever seen 🤣🤣🤣

Argument ended in the first minute when the proponent of trans sport forgets that trans men are a category… this is only about men entering women’s sports

Funny thing is that male categories in most sports aren't closed to women, they can compete if they want to, they just can't or won't 🙃.

All these discussions have made me think most trans people live in a fantasy world. This is the least factual position I've ever heard Destiny argue against. This is flat earth level.

Mugsy Bogues was a 5ft3 professional NBA player. Not every basketball players are tall. Isaiah Thomas, 2nd place in MVP NBA player was 5ft8. The average height for a point guard is like 6ft. Basketball players aren’t picked based on height but skill

So like, this person arguing with Destiny, actually pushed me more towards TERF ideals. The complete lack of empathy for CIS women really makes me question the perspective and ideals that they are a proponent of.

Weak men telling strong women what they can and cant allow in their sports. Feels too ironic to be a coincidence.

I honestly have no idea what the guy on the right is even arguing for or against.

This guy who is clearly not an athlete, and who clearly does not even understand what competitive integrity is, sure has a lot of strong opinions about women's sports and what the future of sports should look like. It's very convenient for men to be able identify as non-binary or trans so they can have the green light to decide what is best for all women.

This is why it's impossible to debate with people that have gone to far right or left. You start having to understand and accept the mental gymnastics they've invented to justify their world view. You end up arguing presuppositions that are largely, if not entirely, unfounded.

Its actually funny how that dude showed his true colors depreciating women's sports and trivializing their effort and passion for a sport, that's some internalized misogyny if i've ever seen one

Something everyone needs to understand for conversations like this: overlapping bell curves. Take height as an example. Men are only slightly taller than women on average. Out of all people who are 5'9, maybe 75% of them are men. There's a lot of overlap between the groups. But out of all people who are 7'0", 99%+ of them are men. That's how overlapping bell curves work. One dominates the other as you move more towards the extremes. Same goes for all factors of physiology. Muscle mass, lung capacity, etc. When you're selecting for people with the very best of a certain physical characteristic (like a sports team would), the pool is gonna be massively weighted towards one group, even when selecting for traits that aren't that different between them on average. The more factors you select for, the more biased it goes towards one group. You can name examples of cis women outperforming trans women all day, but even if trans women are only slightly better at sports on average, when you get to the professional level (extreme ends of the bell curves), trans women are gonna be hugely over represented. The same principle applies to prison populations (aggressiveness), billionaires (motivation/drive), comedians (self-hatred, willingness to be controversial), etc. Tons of overlap between men and women, but when you select for the extremes, one group dominates the other.

"What should we do about trans athletes?" "Eliminate women's sports." 🤔

This guy is really arguing for women not being able to play in professional sports competing vs cis men wtf

😢 this is painful to watch. Dude makes absolutely no sense. I have never heard anyone speak so much without actually saying anything

F this guy who wants to eliminate women from sports just so men dressed as women can finally get a medal. What he is saying is so ridiculous it is leaving Destiny speechless.

This person: No one watches womens sports so fuck’em lol Also this person: if all sports were just an open category absolutely people would sponsor and support the best women playing at rank 1000. Hats off to the moderator though. He was super proactive, this could've gone off the rails way harder.

He claims women are discouraged from playing sports, and his solution is to make them compete against males. Great job dude.

Something not mentioned is the NFL and the NBA do not exclude women from trying out and making a team. Women can't compete on that level.

Every one of these arguments just comes down to someone who isn’t competitive not understanding why anyone would care about a game being fair

I think the idea of trans women becoming more accepted due to their increasing representation in sports is absolutely wrong. In my opinion trans acceptance will decrease over time due to cis women having lower chances to be competetive in sports.

What the fuck? A lot of women are encouraged to join sports at an early age. This guy is beyond insane.

There is millions of dollars on the line at the top of sports. Are you saying people should be able to take PED's? Because trans women have an even BIGGER advantage than PED's when competing against women.

54:53 I'm from Louisiana and grew up Catholic. My parents pushed my sister as much as me and my brothers to play sports. I think maybe a few girls in my class didn't play at least one sport, and that's because they were out of shape. This dude doesn't know shit.

One of the biggest problems and Destiny's biggest mistakes was calling it womens and mens sports. The truth is that it should be more accurately called Open and womens sports. There are no rules against women, trans women, trans men, or intersex in competing in what we incorrectly call "mens sports". So technically we already have a league for genderless sports that Cinth is advocating for.

Destiny, your patience in dealing with this subject is incredible.

When that trans chick won gold in the olympic swimming competition a while back, I can't imagine how heartbreaking it was for the biological females. Train your entire life for a man to take your gold medal in the olympics. Jesus fuck I'm losing brain cells listening to this guy. Destiny has the patience of a saint. I'm losing mine. Like, I'm slightly on the progressive side, but listening to this dude talk...

Simple fix, if you think we shouldn't have gender based sports, and woman should compete with men. Why not just let trans women compete with men instead of woman?

This pisses me off sooooo much. Like my brain is literally melting. How dare a man make the claim that women's sports are basically useless and need to be eliminated. Im proud to be a woman. I love being a woman. I wouldn't ever want to fucking compete against a man! No woman would ever win against a man. Do uou think that the best WNBA player would be able to win against a LeBron James or Michael Jordan? I think the best women's swimmer would be able to compete and win against Michael Phelps? Do you think the best woman sprinter would be able to compete and win against Usain bolt? Like what the fuck are we even talking about here?? I'm progressive but this progressive shit has gone way too fucking far and is literally fighting against the fabrics of reality! I'm tired.

As a woman who's played contact sports - there was never any social pressure to keep me out of sports. Ever. Not even once. I was raised by conservatives in the south and they didn't give a fuck if I did martial arts/played basketball/did wrestling/played softball. Women are not pushed away from sports, they're pushed into different sports from men, but they're both pushed into sports.

when they talk about the idea of men pretending to be transwomen and they think its so outlandish and unlikely... like really? People who compete at sports at the highest level are willing to take steroids and such to the point that they are risking heart attacks and reducing their life expectancy by dozens of years, they go through injuries and a lot of pain, blood and even psychological stress . Many have very little social life as their lives are train -> eat -> rest -> recover -> repeat. And you think if they are not making money but they could make decent money by taking hormone blockers for a few years, they wouldn't do it??? For sure a decent amount of them would.

Womens sports are 1.6% of air time and is inconsequential. Umm, the people that say trans people are less than a percent and are therefore inconsequential get cancelled by you.

"Division three football on tv: do they even happen?" *moderator shakes head* In real life, no one is going to sponsor a potential competitor knowing they'd be like rank 3000. I wouldn't even want to compete for such place. That basically is the end of a lot of athlete's careers. Edited: the longer this conversation goes on the more tradcon he appears to be, seriously: "women near only play sportslike cheerleading so it's not a big deal"

The NBA is an example of a genderless professional sports league. Anyone can try to make a team, and the results have historically been comprised entirely of male athletes. The league has grown in big part by emphasizing sustainability, competition, and entertainment at the highest levels. It’s a talent-driven league; elite performance is easy to market

Wow the absolute misogyny, why do cis women even need sports!? This is getting completely out of hand. Biological women deserve to be with other Biological women period!! Dang I really see now these people want bio women gone!!!

There are already men using their "trans identity" to make a mockery of genuine trans women who are strongly compelled to be a woman; for example a man claiming to be a trans woman who entered a female fraternity and creeped everyone out with his behaviour. This issue opens the door to even more of these types. Buckle up; this is going to get crazy.

I can’t believe this person really tried to claim racial segregation in sports was on the basis of athletic performance. Actually unbelievable.

also whoa, a moderator that can actually shut people up. Didn't think that existed on social media

To be clear, this guy is not "too progressive", he's fixated on one component of one issue and he cannot think logically beyond that.

I’ve always said this they should just call women’s sports female sports so everyone just shuts tf up

This guy obviously has never competed. He has no idea what he is talking about. 2 to 4 years can be devastating in the world of athletics. And the fact that a trans woman can’t compete against biological women when they are out of their prime and still win should be a huge indicator that trans women competing in biological women’s sports should not happen.

This dude is saying that the "social harm" of not allowing trans women to compete in sports is so great, that he essentially wants cis women to get almost completely dumpstered on and become irrelevant in competitive sports, and he states that the "social harm" 8n doing that is negligible..... like what???

I'm going to have to come back to this, because I couldn't even listen to the whole thing. This was painful to listen to, and I applaud Destiny for the patience that he showed here debating with that....them.

It’s funny because people seem to say they are sticking up for trans people, but they aren’t sticking up for all of the women playing women’s sports. They also argue the advantages don’t matter much, so let trans women play with the men since advantages aren’t that big of deal.

It's driving me nuts that the other side doesn't realize we've been here already, when then say "we don't know what would happen, women could compete on the same levels." That's why women's leagues were created in the first place. The separation was a solution to a problem - mainly that the average woman could not compete at the same levels in many sports, compared to men. It seems trans women get caught in the middle of this issue and I get it - I'm not trying to be a dick and hurt anyone. I just don't think a male that has had male puberty would be fair competition to a female - regardless if they identify as a woman or not.

It annoys me so much how he goes with Destiny and talks about the hypothetical situation where they eliminate womens sports but then suddenly decides its about including trans in womens sports and accuses him of straw-manning.

I think it’s kind of misogynist to tell women that you, a biological male, are better women and are true women.

Maybe it’s because I’m in my 30s, but I have a hard accepting that people like this exist. I’m an hour in, and I’m still convinced this is joke, even though all the evidence points to the opposite.

"Oh, you confused basketball with soccer, I WON, LET US LAUGH!!!!" How are these people real?

The reason this is so annoying because it sounds like this guy has never played a sport in his life but gets to speak for all women in sports and was so mindblown by destiny saying hs boys basketball teams could beat WNBA teams they definitely could

A man telling other men how woman should live, play and work. The irony here is amazing.

Goes to show that the person destroying sports doesn't participate or care about sports. Just blows the mind that they think that an open league would be healthier. They need to go back to their drama class and leave sports alone

This guy has never played sports, enjoyed sports, or cared about sports, or has ever had a girlfriend or female family member or friend that has played sports.

If Synth really cared about the "social utility", they'd accept that trying to crowbar Trans women into women's sport is **increasing** Transphobia, not reducing it. How many "allies" do you think Lia Thomas won over? I would guess it would be negative.

if you CHOOSE to be a trans woman, you give up the right to play sports as a woman. You should totally be able to compete vs men if you so desire.

Trans women are a really small number, you know what's a small number 1. And 1 Michael Jordan was enough to turn basketball on its head. 1 top athlete is all you need to be the best at the sport, to jump higher, to shoot further, to move smoother at speed, and you will reset every record. Now here's the question, is it fair for women to have a man come into the league and set all the top bars?

This is the product of selecting an ideology and trying to form your logic to follow it, rather than following logic to the most sensible ideology.