I just smoked 4 pounds of meth, I am god

@@theshrimpmeister7699 Go to sleep.

More civil but the arguments are just as terrible

Can Destiny look up Olympic Track and Field winners please? What do they all seem to have in common?

destiny, female athletes are on a 14 to 20% bodyfat and a male athletes have between 6 to 13% bodyfat, there is no way they can be equal on a pound per pound comparison, if they weight the same the cis female counterpart is going to have less muscle mass. The testosterone levels trans females athletes compete at are still on the healthy male range, on the lower end yes but still a healthy level

I thought that as well, but if there are alot more males in sports in general, we'd expect more transwomen as well. It's difficult to say how much that accounts for it, cause I don't have any numbers :/ Might be all of it, might be none of it.

Testosterone. It’s real. And it’s a game changer.

@@roberteriksen6434 wouldn’t we expect more transmen to enter sports if its a male dominated activity? Or i guess i could see how more pre-transition transwomen being pushed into sports more than pre-transition transmen.

twitter lefties will say "sample size too low" and then concern post over you having some unconcious bias against trans people. a better way to manifest your "unconcious bias against trans people" would be to do what destiny's doing and say "twitter lefties say puberty is bad for trans kids who wanna go on puberty blockers, therefore any trans athlete who has gone through puberty have a discrepency" and then force them to either say "fuck puberty blockers for kids" or "fuck trans athletes whove gone through puberty." EDIT: A twitter lefty responded so I'm updating this so that there aren't any repeat arguments from other twitter lefties in the future. Puberty is bad for trans kids who wanna go on puberty blockers because of the dysphoria-inducing changes that occur because of it, some of which affect athletic performance and training. Since the goal of puberty blockers is to inhibit/induce these changes, it would be unfair for someone who went through puberty as a different gender to compete against someone who went through puberty as their current gender. You would have to say "fuck puberty blockers for kids" if you wanted to say "post-puberty transitioned trans athletes should be allowed to compete as their identified gender" because you would be saying that the physical changes that occur during puberty don't matter. You would have to say "fuck post-puberty transitioned trans people" if you wanted to say "kids should be allowed to access puberty blockers" because you would be saying that the physical changes that occur during puberty do matter. Alternatively, you could say that the non-athletic-performance affecting changes are more important than the athletic-performance affecting changes, in which case you'd still be saying "fuck puberty blockers for kids" because you'd be conceding to the "puberty blockers are too big of a tradeoff" argument that the HRT supporting transphobes usually make.

I think a big reason for that is because the percentage of trans women is much, much higher than the percentage of trans men. Obviously you're going to see more trans women in sports, because there are three times as many transwomen than transmen in general.

@@secularjihadi No women often can't

@@secularjihadi No, they often can't. High school male basketball teams have been able to beat WNBA teams. You fail to understand the vast difference in inherent physical ability between males and females.

@@secularjihadi cope...

@@aaronyayger 💯

@@guffeluffe5987 I think that hobbledhoy might of meant that the men who now identify as women, and are competing in women's sports were able to compete amongst men to a descent level before they identified as women.

Glad you mentioned the allowed T amounts. They are much higher than a biological women's T no matter how you look at it. It would be considered doping for a female to be so high.

9-10% difference is such a MASSIVE one at the upper levels of a sport. You’re talking the difference between a first ballot hall of famer to like someone who maybe can make an all star team who is forgotten three years after they quietly retire.

@@courtneyvaldez7903 that still probably wouldnt even be a 10% gap

Coming out of highschool I was a D2 football recruit. The only thing stopping me from going d1 was 2 inch's of height+20lbs+ 2 or 3 tenths of a second 40 time speed. If you saw me on a D1 field I wouldn't stand out as out of place. But if you take a D2 team and play them against a D1 team not only is the game not going to be competitive whatsoever but it's flat out going to be dangerous for all the d2 players. That tiny little bit of separation in physical ability might as well be the grand canyon.

A fraction of a percent in competitive sports is a massive difference lol this dude clearly doesn’t compete in sports.

There are people who are born poor. "Life is not 100% fair, we should make them even more poor, suffer and die" "If something is not 100% fair, then its ok to make it less fair"

Physical training is what creates elite athletes and that's part of the argument here. Cis women have done ultimate training programs for years to become elite competitors and trans women who were non-elite immediately become elite just by switching to a handicapped division known as women's sports. An elite female athlete can outperform all non-elite males and all other females, an elite male athlete can outperform all elite females and other males. Mid-range male athlete transitions to become a woman and competes in female category becoming elite by virtue of previous training and irreversible biological advantages. Women's sports ceases to be competitive for ciswomen. Open to opinions.

That's a fact Sports are already unfair due to biological Advantage in the field

@@blondebomber-qo2uy but that's not happening at all though

@@highcouncil1302 did Hubbard break any women's records very easily or did that not happen?

only if you think trans women are similar to men? which they are not.

@A1Cvenom actually, HRT does atrophy muscle so the muscle claim is inadequate. same with the stronger grip strength, larger lungs, and bone density are all affected by HRT. men have wider waists, and narrower hips by the way. if you cannot get a simple fact correct i would avoid debating this subject. also, im not sure you understand what puberty is. its the induction of a sex hormone into the body for the first time in large amounts, causing change. this happens when a trans person gets on HRT. its commonly referred to as a "second puberty". because it reverses the changes made in the first puberty, and elicits changes similar to those in people with similar hormones. trans women also lose height from transitioning, lia herself losing an inch so far. along with that her actual competitive data shows that she has not had any significantly higher success rate as a trans women athlete than when she was competing in mens categories. i would like to add that, all of these things can happen in cis women, and frequently do. in fact, cis women with these traits compete regularly and are not barred from competition. funnily enough, in the recent boxing controversies, most people were attacking the cis woman boxer for being "a huge monstrosity" compared to the trans woman, for which they thought the roles were reversed. because of the low number of trans women in general, combined with the low number of competitive womens athletes, assuming that even half of them were tall with big hands (as men are actually statistically getting shorter to begin with, along with many variations in how people look and turn out regardless of their hormones due to genetics) this would be statistically similar or insignificant compared to the number of cis women already competing with these advantages. EDIT: i originally thought this was in response to a comment left elsewhere on this video, as a result i have removed references made to the points i brought up in the comment, as they arent visible or relevant.

That's a very simple way to put it, I love it. Even if it doesn't change someone's mind, it starts a conversation and plants the seed. I generally don't voice my opinion on Trans women in sports because it sounds hateful and I don't want to be misunderstood. The women's category is already a handicapped category and maybe the mistake here was ever calling it the "women's" category since the term women is so loaded in this respect. It's a complex issue and I love hearing thoughtful opinions from other people!

@@psychicsqu1d711 yeah, I think it is absolutely valid to say that she didn't gain a competitive advantage from transitioning. You said it yourself, she's at about the same level she was at when she was competing in the men's division, and we would likely expect to see her perform marginally worse than before the transition. But it's about the same. So if her pre-transition times are comparable to post transition times, but they're being compared to the women's times now, and that's the advantage. The whole conversation isn't about HRT juicing them up, but the fact that there are inherent differences prior to HRT that affectvperformance after HRT. Idk what the solution is though, because it does make it significantly more difficult to be competitive in men's sports. But there are still (potentially) unfair advantages in women's sports, so they're in a weird middle ground. Bones and physiology of a male body, with a muscle mass and hormone profile of a female body. It's complicated.

@A1Cvenom i have been telling these people online that trans women can have 250?nl/dl while biological women are allowed to have 60nl/dl (not 100% accurate numbers but close) and they just refuse to believe it

But no one with those qualifications would debate him

If that is relevant destiny shouldn't participate. Many top athletes have entirely opposing views on this topic, this makes no sense.

@@MichaelSmith-fq5yr not debate but have a conversation with. It'd be useful for him to get more information.

I am very confident that the reason most of the actual experts don't speak publicly on this topic is what has happened to the experts that have. It doesnt seem to matter what a person's qualifications are when they weigh in on trans sports issues, if they get even remotely close to validating something a terf would say they are slandered.

I was a long distance cyclist and I was not amazing by any means. A bunch of women were complaining that they should be able to compete with the men and I laughed and said they’d have a hard time competing against me (a middling cyclist). We did a race and sure enough I won with the exception of one women (who was the one that consistently won our races). Even then she barely won and most of my times were better than hers. This doesn’t mean that trans women have an advantage, but I think it’s enough that we should check.

in a competitive environment where people often cheat for even a fractional advantage, 10% is huge.

A 10% chance increase over the world record is the going to be the new world record. A 10% chance increase of winning any 1v1 will put you at the very top of that game. When you’re at your bracket you’re expected to win 50% of the time. If you always have a 10% edge over your competition, the more games you play, the more you’ll rack up wins over losses until you’re just farming everyone else. A 10% increase in performance can be a very significant thing. She’s just so dead wrong about this.

100% agree. See what I did there. But it's true high level athletes are splitting 0.05% to get an advantage in training equipment everything. If your talking 5-10% that person is going to get blow out of the park with that kind of margin.

i have palyed competitive hockey my entire life, and I also explained that the 12% running advantage could possibly be due to the fact that the trans women in the air force study were more than 12 cm on average taller than the cis women in the study.

Yeah when you are looking at the differences between finishes in a single sport, 10% can be the difference between 1st place and last place. In like a 100m sprint, the difference between 1st and last can be like less than a second but you'll train for months to just get a fraction of a fraction of that IN practice. I get wanting to be inclusive, but talking so ignorantly about shit that she clearly has no experience in is mind bogglingly stupid. Everyone's allowed to have an opinion, but some of these people need to seriously understand that just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your mouth shut.

The argument I think is if a trans person is on HRT for more than two years their time would be slower. I agree with you but that is the reality but they’re not just talking about a man transitioning in a day and competing against women is unfair the women whos lived there whole life as a women

@@Markymark7595 did you listen to any of the Arguments from the video? If he was to transition and raced three years later. They would still be better than your average cis woman in that category at that age.

@@Markymark7595 bro are you blind he still would have better lungs and bones there are somethings you can’t change

but you are a normal dude, like trans women arent fucking dudes in skirts.

@@Channel-23s there are women with better bones and lungs and I don't see people complaining about abnormal organs.

It’s required

He said Lia Thomas is 5'8", so he's clearly not living in reality.

Constant mental gymnastics. Very tiring to listen to. It's like someone claiming that 2+2 isn't 4, and every piece of evidence they go through all these studies, obscure mathematical identities, etc. to show that it isn't enough to prove it's 4. This person can't see the forest for the trees.

Anytime I hear, well we don’t have enough studies yet. Coming from a woman, it is shocking how weak we are compared to men. It’s so much more then just strength as well. I played college soccer. I could somewhat keep up in indoor soccer (I’m from Alaska so we did a lot of that) with average boys. I was ranked one of the best female players in the state. If you compared me to the top 100 (probably more) boys I would of been decimated by them. I’ve heard some on here say if women worked harder they could compete. That is nonsense. I played and trained all the time. I don’t see why this is such a hard statement to take. We are diff. What’s really sad too is I wanted to be a boy so bad when I was younger because I did want to be the best. When people met me a lot of times they thought I was a boy. I was NOT a boy. I am def a woman but if the option to “transition” was given to me then I would of wanted it so bad. If someone told me you are a boy and can be, it would of been such a relief to me. My parents would of never put me on hormones but I would of begged too. Also sadly I would be curious if girls wanting to be boys or vice versa go through any sexual abuse as well. I could be wrong but I could see wanting to be the opposite sex due to being so uncomfortable in your body.

@@Starnote16one thing they always skip over is reaction time. Mens reaction time is far superior to woman’s. At a certain point in sports physicality is basically nullified and reaction time is the most important factor. This goes for combat sports especially, a weaker man can beat a stronger man just with his reaction time.

We haven't done any research, I suggest radical change.

It's saying something that those trans athletes that failed eventually, like the weight lifter and the MMA fighter, had really only been training for a few years.

How are you going to get those results without them competing against women?

How can you say that without proving there is an advantage

Even if you could prove there is an advantage in one department? What if there’s a disadvantage after HRT that neutralizes the original advantage? What if the athlete is also double jointed or has sustained injury in the past? All of this is nuanced details to be looked into…

They literally said 'we should tell cis women to just suck it up and lose, but we can't tell trans women to play against men because then they would have to suck it up and lose...'

Perfect summarization lol. Being unfair to 1% of athletes is unacceptable so we need to be unfair to the other 99% of athletes. Please make it make sense

its not unfair, we allow women with better bodies in, if you don't want trans people in, you just don't want more competition and you are a sore loser.

Lol they never do

They’ve been indoctrinated not to assert themselves. To their disadvantage. Don’t want to hurt anyone’s precious feelings!

This person doesn’t hold themselves to standards period.

"What is the Lakers ELO this season" lol

Wait, do you guys not do that in america?

isnt this essentially what the nba g-league is? its not as if "skill based tiers of play" is unprecedented

I mean to be fair he have league 1 and 2 football in the UK and Europe, but people watch them because of local loyalty. Lower skill doesn’t mean worse games either, at least in my experience I’d watching lower league football games go 7-5

You guys watch any left-handed femboy ping pong this year?

That was my thought exactly. I was lucky enough to be competitive and high-level sports when I was younger. People who don’t compete in sports seriously, or at all, do not understand what a huge difference 10% is. I competed in swimming and the difference between first place and last place was less than a second in many events.

I genuinely wonder if the trans swimmer Lia is proud. Was Lia proud after destroying all those women and taking 1st place? Did Lia really think it was a fair fight? Really? I doubt it.

@@ljb8157 I'll bet she is. It's part of the story they are encouraged to tell themselves. Fallon Fox said she actually had a disadvantage, compared to biological women.

@@alex-qd6of delusion is a powerful drug!

Should we ban cis women who also compete at that plus 10% then?

I’d like to see that, be sure to email him.

A big question no one could really speak to in the 1v9 debate was how much hormone fluctuations and menstruation affect training regimen and how much not having to deal with that gives. If you do get to speak to Destiny, please answer this!

Definately email him, since I doubt he looks at youtube comments. I think you also have a better shot of communicating with him on discord, but it seems like email is the best.

@@jimazing1 I think Destiny did bring up menstruation and it was pretty much blown off by the others by them saying some women don't menstruate because they train so hard... It was really no use in trying to help that group understand what being an athlete is and what it entails when the only one that was regarded as being an athlete had a background in 'Disc Golf'...

Sorry but none of this matters. Overall a man’s physical makeup will typically be larger and superior. It doesn’t matter how long they go test free. Look at Rachel Levine. You can spot her from a mile away as being originally a man. Bigger body mass, bigger hands, shoulder mass, etc etc. it won’t matter.

some people just naturally have better bodies. Get over it.

@@complexaltruist in this case they don’t just “naturally” have a better body. They went through male puberty which provided them a better body they wouldn’t have had if they didn’t like the cis women they want to compete against.

@@prognastat9562 Actyually you do, because most of the skill that athletes have is just from their genes, training just sharpens it. You can train your whole like 24/7 and never win against someone just physically better.

@@complexaltruist Not sure what your point is. Your point can be true and still has no impact or relation to my point whatsoever. It would be like a cis woman taking steroids from 13-18 and then wanting to compete with other cis women. It's actually worse since the steroids wouldn't have as a big an impact by completely changing someone's body shape like being taller, having larger hands, changing the waist to hip ratio and so many other things testosterone does to the male body during puberty.

@@complexaltruist Then just put trans men and woman into male sports.

Confirmation bias, they can’t engage with reality if reality doesn’t agree with their ideology.

Agreed. That’s the point that should end the argument and anyone fighting after that point is just coping.

wtf are you talking about?

​@@complexaltruistthis video, I assume

But isn't that always the case when Destiny debates people like this? They can't get out of their own way fast enough to develop as more realistic world view where people are often wrong and they make corrections accordingly. Unfortunately, when some of these people attach themselves to what they see as a progressive cause, they start to equate that to them being a good person. If the cause they support is found to be flawed, they will still defend it to their dying day because for them to admit they supported a flawed issue means they are not as good a person as they thought they were.

Exactly. Even the preface for every BS argument was a condescending "yeah, thats a common misconception, but I'll show you the error of your ways."

@@Ridistrict I think this tracks perfectly with Destiny's commentary on the Rittenhouse case and how people pick a side. For someone who identifies as a leftist in some way, there are a few details that will cause them to commit to one side of an argument. In this case, they view this as a civil rights issue. That is the core element of their opinion... that they are progressing civil rights for trans people. That's the part of this whole controversy that will never be overcome.

The activists are putting the cart before the horse regardless. They need to step back wayyyyy to the beginning. First of all, there is a centuries-long social norm called SEX-segregation. Not gender-identity segregation. SEX-segregation. The activist *ask* or *request* of society is to "please, let's throw this norm away - in the name of compassion and fairness" Bottom line. This is the beginning, where we need to work from. Call it the *transgender ask* if you like. The problem is - they just are not willing to accept the answer. The answer to the ask, is essentially NO. That is what society is predominantly saying when it comes to the ask. This isn't just sports. It's bathrooms. It's changing rooms. It's locker rooms. It's showers. It's saunas. It's nude spas. It's bathhouses (even gay ones). There is even an activist claim on extending your boundaries of who you should date. Single-sex spaces (again SEX, not gender identity) are a longstanding norm. And yes - it's always been about "muh parts" ... it just is ... regardless of how much the activists like to mock that, or consider it dumb. That IS what sex-segregation has always been about. *Regardless* of the theory of 1,000,000 genders. It's been so the guys aren't around tits and vag. It's been so the girls aren't around cock. There are relevant modesty, and socio-sexual reasons for sex-segregation in the west. Period. End of story. So fundamental to all of this is do we: a) we keep the norm b) we throw out the norm, or start to severely bend it. I just don't believe that the 99.9% are going to throw away centuries of a norm, a *valid & respectable norm* mind you, for 0.1% of the population. Putting societal "comfort" on a balance - throwing away sex-segregation is not going to happen in a decade. Not two. Maybe not a century. MAYBE NOT EVER. This is a huge huge huge request of society at large... and yet, these activists just handwave it away as some kind of easy civil rights request - and completely discount the rights of the vast majority. One's comfort over another. "Well if you don't like trans me in your space - just leave" they say. HOLD ON A SECOND ! YOU are the one asking for the change! How about we keep things as-is, and YOU just leave? The 500 behave as before, the 1 asking for something different... too bad. The answer is no.

It's so difficult to actually have honest conversations with lefties these days because of this exact reason. I try so hard to be open to ideas, to understand the other POV, and to be open minded that I could possibly be wrong.. but it feels like its impossible to get the same behavior from the other side.

While also fundamentally changing the concept of cake

Whoa, I found the Unabomber!

more like, "i want to have my cake and eat it too, but my mouth is way bigger, i can eat much more and i can hold the others com so they can´t eat even when they deserve more than me"

@@seanjenkins5505 What even is a cake? I'm not a biologist.

I never understood this phrase, what the hell is the point of making a cake if you're not gonna eat it? The point of the phrase is supposed to convey someone being unreasonable and greedy when that is a very resonable thing to want.

No because I am a cis male who can only bench 15kg Most cis women can lift this So don’t worry about it

@@thepouchka so you‘re weak af congratulations, but how is that related to the original comment?

@@Verdia sarcasm my guy

@@Verdia bruh 😅

@@Verdia don't worry bro I didn't get it too the first time I read it

You’re not allowed to say common sense stuff like this anymore, sadly

But you hadnt been on puberty blockers or been on HRT. It MAY be the case you could have out competed women as a trans teen but your experience as a man isnt evidence of that

Calm down Mark, I’m trans and wanna see a decent open convo about this subject. That doesn’t however include blatant transphobia outside of the sports issue. I don’t wanna see women’s sports damaged. I’m sure the majority of trans people would agree.

@@tabbymoonshine5986 What blatant transphobia?

@@theonewhoknocks96 it's literally being talked about in this video. 😂

🤷‍♀️

That's every movement these days. It's about feelings not equality. Half the people arguing for a movement are doing it for pats on the head most of the time.

I mean people made the same argument about trans people during the early years of the lgbt movement. It is partly why trans rights are so behind gay rights. Just because something is controversial doesn’t mean it is rightly so and we shouldn’t be fighting for it. People think this is just some left wing thing, or new but it has been IOC policy for almost 2 decades.

The whole thing is ridiculous. Males should not be competing against females; the advantages that males have are innumerable, so it would be inherently unfair for women.

Exactly. Acceptance and "live and let live" is no longer their goal. If they're not being actively validated celebrated, they're suddenly "oppressed"

In terms of transwomen, literally no woman would want to be in A. They would all flock to B. This isn't an original thought, people have been wanting to make a trans-division for a long time, and there are obvious problems with it.

@@carnivorous_vegan I guess everyone prefers to win over competing in the “harder” category. Of course Michael Phelps will probably prefer to win the harder category just because he can. This happens in competitive games as well where high ELO players would smurf and demolish low ELO players. I don’t think there could be a solution to this. There isn’t an outcome where we can all “win“. Some group has to take the L.

@@carnivorous_vegan What is the problem with it? Someone in the original debate brought it up as an alternative but it was quickly shot down as ‘telling transwomen they can never be athletes.’ I don't see why there can't be a Title 9 for transgender athletes (perhaps transmen and transwomen competing together will become the format) to make sure there are enough high school and college leagues.

@@planetjanet3845 The main issue i can see is how few trans men and women there actually are let alone the ones that want to be athletes

@@user-xn3sw9sr9r Well if they're 1% of the population, you would have to scale up from school to district to accommodate. When I played high school sports, my state had 12 districts roughly corresponding to the metropolitan areas of the state, each with about 50 schools competing in every sport. The transgender league could function with one team for each district in every sport.

It’s not like trans people are all gonna gain a degree in physiology and sports…..be reasonable 😂

Yes that's why they must follow the current regulations which is two years hrt, that is their "proof"

that's every person that argues for trans competition. They never admit they should just compete against men, because they know they'll suck. The swimmer was rank 400+ against men and because he grew out his hair and called himself a girls name, now he's rank 1 women. it's hilarious anyone can defend it, and people humor their argument.

@@Pheonixess wtf are ypou talking about? you don't know anything about transitioning.

@@complexaltruist ok? Didn't mention it, but I'm sure I do and I definitely know what it looks like lmao

@@Pheonixess you are talkinh about asn "agenda" but don't know whats going on.

So ur saying to put trans woman agains trans man? Bruh the guys are fucked in this one lol

Trans women should compete at the highest level in open (male) sports leagues and be happy that they're playing. I don't see what's wrong with that. Real athletes are just happy to be playing, at any level.

@@patrickmiller1674 shouldnt play at all, it cant be a sport when they cant even claim to be natty. Unless its bodybuilding, in wich case gross.

@@arturniedzwiecki2024 I'm more focused on trans women. Can't classify hrt as a performance enhancer

@@arturniedzwiecki2024 honestly if a female wants to roid up and face men... Go for it. I'm all for it. Idgaf. It'd be interesting

but they arent lol. What a fucking joke.

Eh. That reasoning gets slippery though. It’s been used in the past to deny blacks and women certain rights. “Why should you go to a white law school? You’re just making it worse for every other black person.”

@@Fjaloeat1 Good argument! I thought of a good counter, its like when they had to force Asians to stop dominating colleges to an absurd degree so other races had a chance and there was diversity. I think this went to the Supreme Court and diversity requirements were upheld IIRC. Otherwise there was a real danger colleges would be basically 98% Asian or Chinese college VISA. Likewise, colleges are trying to stop trans women from being 98% of women's sports teams.

yuuup. feeling already in Texas. my friend and I used to be able to go downtown and live our lives with what felt to be growing passive acceptance. ever since the trans sports issue blew up, we get frosty stares and get some petty scorn. Are sports really worth ruining the opportunity for a good, quiet life for most trans people who don't have athletic aspirations??

It's such a weird hill to want to die on.

Based analysis. Wish more people would think like you

I mean I can imagine it’s hard being part of a group you had no choice in being a part of, and having certain parts of life potentially being stripped from you. I get that. But it’s important that we find the right way forward on this topic. It may be that trans women simply can’t compete with cis women if they have undergone a male puberty. And as a trans person…..I get it. Things have to be fair for cis women in sport.

@@tabbymoonshine5986 I don't think this person plays sports lmao

I toss aside 100% of women regardless. Who gives a crap about women's sports really?

+ in the end, if we follow their prescription, it'll still separate the female category in 2 lol. The top 1% will exclusively be trans women and the rest will be cis women.

@UCGa_ydujNM-pl4IFdHKelSw Horseshoe theory 0-0

@@wiredvibe1678 i toss aside 100% of woman so that i can focus on my gigachad sigma grindset

@@hugonamenlos7218 how else am I going to get all these steam achievements?

Sports is fundamentally ingrained in biology, exercise science, kinesiology, and nutrition. Every single athlete knows this and those who support this are pretty much liars and spit in the face of their own foundational studies. It's akin to letting parathletes in the regular olympics. Some would be barreled over by able-bodied olympics, while the ones who require athletic prosthetics would beat WRs of the regular olympics. It's an unfair advantage all around and thats WHY the Paralympics were started. This Thomas situation, on top of that pink-haired biker and fat New Zealander, is no different. Unfair advantage. You need a separate league.

Right? Like I competed at the collegiate level running cross country and track, our top female who was also at all American at the D2 nationals was running times I was hitting my freshman year of high school and in the grand scheme of things I wasn’t that good at that age, there’s were loads of guys faster than me, It’s not even comparable. I was dumbfounded when I dated a girl that didn’t believe men for the most part are significantly stronger, I was a couple inches taller (I’m 6’ 2” and she was 5’ 10”) and we weighed roughly the same 155lbs and I went to pick up a gazebo that weighed roughly 130lbs and she was like “there’s now way you can lift that, I couldn’t get it to budge” low and behold I was able to pick it up and toss it in my truck with relative ease and the dumbfounded look on her face was priceless.

I think it’s intentional dishonesty and backwards reasoning personally.

Agreed. Thanks for saying this as it needed to be said, and I thought it almost the entire time listening to the panel debate

@@Mageblood it’s just how it is 🤷🏼‍♂️ like my genetics aren’t suited to basketball or football, but they fit really well into endurance sports. To even get to the collegiate level I think you have to be in the top 2% of people that competed in that sport in high school

As a male lifter I'm not even certain testosterone matters that much. It's not like I have my testosterone tested before I worked out. I did over 100 reps today. Was my test high? Who knows. Most of the industry aimed at me trying to convince me to get testosterone therapy is just pseudoscience anyhow. There are so many other factors. They kept bringing up height too? I'm confused? Short men are often insanely strong.

@@TheFortressMaximus afaik testosterone promotes muscle growth. You don’t need to test daily because you just naturally have higher testosterone because you’re a man. Anabolic steroids, also known more properly as anabolic-androgenic steroids, are steroidal androgens that include natural androgens like testosterone as well as synthetic androgens that are structurally related and have similar effects to testosterone. From Wikipedia. If steroids have testosterone along with other male hormones, then I think it’s logical to assume that it helps.

@@eustace88 This is the only rational argument that i can think of when you could make it fair. Also you would need blockers at 10 some boys start puberty early. In the example you have made i have not heard of anyone like this in sports.

you literally lose most the advantages though, like going on estrogen makes you weak as shit.

its also not just T, but androgen sensitivity.

Yea, it's really fucked up though. Because I'm okay with people identifying with their true self, but to turn around and enter cis women's spaces, feels like a betrayal in a sense.

@@stoplyingabout wtf are you talking about?

@@complexaltruist Trans women entering Cis women's sports feels like a betrayal of trust. Women's sports was reserved for cis women.

@@complexaltruistmen & woman are equal.

@@skuzzlebutt9745 that is obvious

You expect too much of Reddit and Reddit mods

@@speedinturtle00 I never had high expectations but I was honestly surprised.

Welcome to the club, first time?

Go look for the video someone did showing who the people that mod most of these subreddits are and you’ll understand the level of insanity that people are trying to argue with

Your first problem was using reddit. Your second problem was expecting a janny to not be cancer.

@@pitbullz9848 Lia Thomas is 6'1/185cm lol, but you can always just lie and say she's 5'8 because it suits your argument gigachad

transitionaing makes some people shorter.

@@complexaltruist I honestly can't tell if you're a parody or not. Have a cookie

@@pitbullz9848 I can't see your comment for some reason, but yeah I know you were arguing against the person in the vid (Ashley). I meant that Ashley used a height she found from google, which is wrong according to major newspapers. 6'1 is like the 99.99th percentile of female height in the US, and only like 93% for males. Hilarious.

@@complexaltruist and apparently makes you delusional also

At the point where they take a good percentage of women sport then it makes sense to create a separate trans league.

I really hope that happens and radicalizes women. Conservatives got it all wrong fighting against it. It's a win/win for chuds: it radicalizes or at the very least ruins cis women's fun (semi-joking)

Lets put it this way. How many male athletes could beat the #1 woman in the world in any given sport/event? 10? No, probably more. 100? No, probably more still. 1000? 10,000? 100,000? Now assuming 0.7% of those born into male bodies are trans women, which seems to be the approximate prevalence... how many trans women could you expect to beat the #1 cis woman? Even though a very small minority are trans, the difference in performance between men and women is significant enough in most sports (even it's "just" 5-10% faster, stronger, etc... that's a big difference actually) that it's entirely possible that women's sports could become dominated by trans athletes over time. That it hasn't happened yet, is perhaps simply due to the fact that trans athletes had the institutional support and personal commitment of a lower ranked male athlete rather than a top ranked female athlete (in terms of training hours, equipment, access to facilities, coaches, etc), and may have been stigmatized from participating in women's sports and also perhaps uncomfortable participating in men's sports. The policy and cultural changes are recent, and may take a decade or more to fully take effect, but I think things could look rather different in a few years.

@@drowningin I'm not trying to say women are completely pathetic btw. They can perform with some rather good times in certain competitions, especially the more endurance driven events, although men still have a clear advantage. For example, the gold medalist woman at the 1500m freestyle event at the Tokyo 2020 olympics is American Katie Ledecky, and she finished with a time of 15:37.34. She's a cis woman, although quite tall at 6'0", with a lot of gold medals and world records, so like the Michael Phelps of women's medium-long distance swimming. With that finishing time, she would've gotten 5th place at the Mens' 1500m at the 2021 Australian Swimming Championships. Australia is the 2nd most successful country (after USA) in swimming at the Olympics. So I think it's possible that she would be among the top 100-200 swimmers of any gender for those distances.

ok? And?

That would be healthy

The problem with this is we already have open sports they are just male dominated. There is no rule stopping women from playing in the NBA, NFL, etc.

@@Kekkai_ I don’t know why people haven’t figured out that the NBA and NFL actually allow women to compete and try out for their teams

I want a league were all drugs are allowed. I want people to do heroin and cocaine before they play American football. That would be hard

@@NothingElseMattersJM I legit never knew that. I assumed that because the WNBA existed, the sports were kept segregated.

Which is never going to happen because dumb idea. Can I compete in peewee football!? Can I drive a car in bike race? Inclusion is woke cult magic spell. Destiny is not woke religion

If you disagree they call you a terf.

100% they’re dodging it. They don’t want to come off as “transphobic”.

I used to play rugby in highschool. The writing on the wall is clear here. Our society is recognising tans women as real women. Also women are equal to men. If we want to hold these ideals we need to stop collectivly trying to shelter women. Sports are unfair. Some people are more genetically gifted than others. "Women" as a group in our society now includes biological males, so if "women" are competing then you can't exclude them. It's would be comparable to excluding anyone based on any other genetic factor like race or height etc...

I agree that a civil discussion is needed. And a trans issue that doesn't revolve around genitals? Fucking score bro. That's progress right there. I think there is a nature-nurture deal ongoing. Because women are relegated to safe spaces where only women can compete they hit peaks where they are the best at their sport around very easily. Once they've peaked they have no incentive to say, convert to an open league to continue their professional development. Serious question, Serena Williams has admitted she would be a 400 level player in the men's league. Do we not believe that she would be able to adapt and start climbing some ranks if she had to compete? But there's no reason she would do that. Sacrificing money, fame and victory to be back at square 1 would be a terrible choice. The gender gap is real, but how are we to know how much is biologically determined and how much is societically enforced.

@@trentjordan5984 good point, absolutely agree that dingling a carrot infront of extremely competitive (most athletes are) would take them to a higher level. And the S. Williams is really good, she reached a level with no 🥕 left. If she could be top 400 or higher, yikes that's a tough one. Personally I don't think so, but i one hundred percent cloud be wrong, either way she is freaking amazing. Your point broadly agree, and would absolutely not be shocked if we see a female player in the NBA (which would probably be a good money business decision). Man idk about all this tricky as F 😸

@@trentjordan5984 She has explained WHY she would be #400 in male tennis in several interviews. She noted a biological difference in performance including respiratory recovery time, power with the racket, and speed.

Yeah, I just do not think people realize how massive the gap is between male and female athletics wise, its a canyon, it goes far beyond just testosterone. I mean nature made the male body massively more rugged as the primary vessel for hunting/gathering, its a blatant fact of nature

2 years of hormones wipes most of it awake, the denser bones can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on the sport.

@@complexaltruistexactly, i an a trans woman mma fighter and i am kicking ass and everyone knows its fair.

@@Shoxie_g you do understand what is trans woman?

There are notable trans male athletes who were women that play in the men's league. One swimmer who got absolutely BODIED (16th place if I recall). One trans male athlete in boxing (or MMA I can't remember) who fought ONE MALE, won, and didn't fight after that. Trans men who transition more or less stick to FEMALE LEAGUES because they know they wouldn't stand a chance in a male league. There's also a female HS wrestler who transitioned hormonally, still played in the female team and started winning more fights. Women are just getting fucked around left and right man.

I’ve played hockey my entire life what

wtf are you talking about?

lung capacity is also something that you can't really get rid of to any degree with HRT, especially if you've had the chance to condition your lungs as a male with years of training

We never even talk about feet size/hand size (fellow high-school swimmer.) Those two things are extremely important, hip placement also changes the dynamics of your leg kicks. Back strength and chest size affecting the fly and breast stroke explicitly. So many factors and just the differences in HS competition between women and men is insane.

this isn't true, lung capacity is only important in regards to endurance sports, and is much morme relevant to height. whats more important is haemoglobin which is what carries the oxygen in the blood, and that is very quickly decreased to cis female levels

Out of curiosity would a trans female Whi transitioned before going through a male puberty have the same advantages

@@tabbymoonshine5986 likely no, but we have not seen any data on it so I can’t be firm in a conclusion

Until trans flood sports. Than women will not place at all.

@@patrickmiller1674 yup. If we're being honest, the whole panel turned into a "fuck women" shit show. This thing really validated a lot of TERF beliefs. Even if I'm being nice and say that they were being ironic when they said that who gives a fuck if women can't compete at the top, all of their "solutions" don't solve anything. For starters, there are very few sports where finesse can't be beat by raw power, also having a natural physical advantage doesn't exclude you from having finesse. One of the panelists tried to say they had the same swing speed as a pro golfer who absolutely cranks his drives.....if that's the case why tf aren't you putting up the same numbers? Must be a difference in something, like idk...skill/finesse? The whole "skill" thing where people are sorted into categories of hundreds like in tennis is dumb af because people already bitch about how women are paid less in professional sports, what do you think is gonna happen when every cis woman is ranked 800-1000? Who tf would wanna sponsor you? If we extend this to all sports, cis women aren't even competing anymore because the spots are all taken up by literally everyone else. It'll be basically 1. Cis men 2. Trans women 3. Trans men 4. Cis women No matter how you slice and dice it, cis women are fucked in sports if they aren't in their own category. If the research they want to cite so bad claims still having an advantage 3 years post transition...ban them from competition for a minimum 3 years. It's the only thing that makes sense, but why don't we suggest it? Cause getting barred from competition for 3 years absolutely fucks you and we all know it. You're either not getting a scholarship for college or not competing in college for 75% of the time you're there.

Not to mention that Hubbard intentionally threw it on purpose. You blow over a buncha records, get to the top, and *then suddenly* you're made out of play-doh? They knew what would happen if they just competed as usual. That's why they "threw" or "slowed down."

Yesterday? what happened yesterday?

Why yesterday?

@@tjfreckles1995 Destiny got his account suspended. Insane corporate control over narrative

He'll be back

@@takeshii I'm not so sure this time... the people that at least pretended to have Steven's back are all gone and Twitch as a company is really focused on being the safest social media platform on the internet, both for brands and users... Having said that, Steven will be OK regardless. It would just be a shame for the commie losers to dominate the discourse even more than they do now...

Because woman and man are social categories (I’m not going to argue here but that’s why people don’t have a dissonance problem here like you you think they should)

Not to mention some sports are 5 nmol/l and even that is double or triple CIS women levels even elite athletes.

It was like this before, for them it will get worse, you are a workhorse once you transition, all that matters is results and consistency, even if that is achieved for them men really can't treat them like "one of the guys" because any busting their chops will be considered different, sad but that's the way it is

lmao harsh but true damn

To be fair some sports are filled with “trust fund” kids. Equestrian is a good example. Granted the bar for entry there is pretty high (keeping horses is stupid expensive).

@@gamingwhilebroken2355 True for sports that require lots of land or equipment only rich people have access too, but why would those arguing with Destiny look past bigger, lucrative, popular sports to focus on those niche rich people sports most people don't care about or play? It was just a weird argument.

Better equipment, wider variety of diets/suppliments, more time(don't necessary have to go to work), better medicine/doctors for injuries/recoveries, better areas to train, can buy coaches, less stress and better access to steroids/gyms etc. How are rich ppl NOT in an advantage here? I think you are out of touch.

@@nagageneral Do you actually watch sports? Nearly all NBA players, most NFL players, many soccer players, and fighters at high levels are from poor/working/middle class backgrounds because being richer never made anyone more athletic, and practice and talent > money. I know you never played sports at a young age either if you think non kids don't have time, they literally dedicate themselves to sports while rich kids are more involved in other things.

I think what they meant to say was that “money allows you to buy things that make you a better athlete”. That’s why professional sports teams have multimillion dollar gyms and training facilities with saunas and cryochambers instead of working out at the YMCA with the poor folk. But what happens in reality is the life circumstances of a poor person will push them into sports more than a rich person. If you’re poor living in the bad part of town, sports might be the only after school activity other than gang banging. And might seem like the only pathway out of the hood. But for a rich kid it’s a much safer investment to go to college and land a job rather than chase the 1 in a million chance of making it in sports.

Their argument then changes to "that's transphobic".

@@blablabla7796 unfortunately true... Funnily though, even without Destiny bringing it up, at 26:20, Ashley tries to use an on average argument of saying that trans women on average perform worse than cis men pre-hrt. I get that they're slightly different, but is still a double standard, and Destiny is too tunneled into getting his hypothetical through to call them out.

Clearly has never seen an nba game let alone highlights. 6’6 guys with 40 inch verticals white can run 4.4-4.6 40 yard dashes..//

Seriously, even a bench player on a bad NBA team would completely own in the WNBA, probably score 100 PPG. And the WNBA would instantly be less boring.

These types of people's only athletic knowledge comes directly from Wii sports or some anime they watched with a badass female protagonist

like imagine if Bruce Jenner had transitioned to Caitlyn Jenner at the peak of his powers. It would have been an absolute bloodbath. It wouldve been worse than unfair

And that will cause a massive wave of transphobia, which is Destiny's entire point.

this is why I don't understand this retort. what the fuck do they mean we don't have sufficient data yet? we've known for ages how T-levels affect muscle strength, muscle density, muscle endurance, and the average transwoman EVEN after HRT is going to have T-levels several times higher than a ciswoman which is why the accepted T-levels for transwomen competing is 288 ng/dL compared to the 15-70 ng/dL which is the range of T for the average ciswoman.

Literally. They lost the argument the moment they agreed that trans men won’t be competitive with cis men.

Exactly. In my state at the highschool level for track, the majority of the participants of our state meet would be competitive at the national level minimum in professional athletics. Given I live in one of the smallest states, it's obvious that many high level male athletes would still be very competitive at that level even after hrt. "Only 10%" is an enormous margin and I think many of the people that argue in favor of mixing genders in sports have never actually played or are arguing in bad faith. It definitely sucks that there isn't a simple solution that makes everyone happy, but people need to acknowledge this before finding any kind of solution.

No shot u were 11,57 that is mad time especially for the training that uve layed out

@@aadi.p4159 So two things, you are right and you are right. I just noticed i switched around the numbers, I meant to write 11,75. Also I have checked and it's 11,80 on the official document. In germany we have sports events "Bundesjugendspiele". This is where I hit this time and thats why I still have an offical document with this time on it. I don't really care it's not important and the point was not to brag, I'm a nobody in the internet space and don't care to be one. The point is, even 12,0 are not that rare so my original statement holds up if you believe me or not.

hey I benchpress as much as silver olympic medalist. Sure...a female olympian, but hey, olympian is olympian!

​@@aadi.p4159 Some people have a natural ability with sprinting. I used to race someone that I crushed in 5k and 10k distances who I had no chance against in a 100m dash. He never specifically trained the distance. He just had a natural quickness that translated well with sprinting. tl;dr - this is possible

Exactly. I think people who see the world are probably actual narcissists

What if a trans woman started puberty blockers before any of the effects of puberty could start to take place? Not saying all trans women do this but I feel that those who never went through a male puberty should have the opportunity to play on women’s teams

For sure. Ppl like to take these variables independently instead of as an aggregate which they should

Do you have a study that shows elite femalenathlete lack these traits or just a hunch. I would suspect that elite female athletes will already be selected for for being females with more male shaped bodies, higher testerone and so on.. like if you go watch the crosfit games many of the woman are more stocky than 99% of men. You go to the NBA and the woman there are likely to have longer arms and many of the biological advantages that men have...

@@bairhall yah, if a trans female athlete never went through a male puberty, and never gained the advantageous effects on their body, that higher testosterone gives, then I'd personally be fine with them competing with cis female athletes, as they would be on a relatively level playing field, having both only gone through a female puberty. Though I'm not quite sure about the idea of hormone blockers in children that young. It's a massively life altering, body augmenting, decision, so I'm not sure if we should allow such a young child to make such decisions, though I'd probably defer to the parents decision, just because I wouldn't want to enforce something I'm not entirely sure about, and the parents would probably know more about that child to make such a decision, since it is so case specific.

@@sentientcabbageman4140 well puberty blockers are completely reversible so I’m honestly not too worried about that aspect. Other than that I agree with you

That’s a good point and something I didn’t consider. It was nice to not listen to someone screech on this topic

there is not nearly the same data for post hrt

Why do we need studies? the Eye test is scientific enough

Hehe.

I mean the people that said that they don't care if woman can compete on the highest level seemed pretty honest

It always ends up being the same thing. They end up agreeing on everything and their only criticism left is that "DesTInY wAs ToO MEaN" lol.

sounds good.

Would be a hilarious series. And I would kill for the August super cut after it was over.

They seem to think that 'controlling for height' somehow eleminates the advantage from that height... No, as soon as you stop controlling for it then the advantage is there. So unless they want to change to height categories in all sports: men's basketball, women's basketball cis-height league, and women's basketball trans-height league, their argument defeats their own position.

No bringing up average athletes does not muddy the waters because average athletes are the ones who would be most affected by changes in sports categories.

@@MS-pd7fc I don't mean average compared to their peers, I mean average compared to the overall field of everyone who plays said sport. Anyone playing at a college or professional level is not average. Generally speaking, I'm sure there's people in junior college or something like that who aren't that good, but if we're talking about Div I college athletes, we're talking about very much above average athletes.

@@markzuckergecko621 I'm talking about those people too. The vast majority of athletes are average. The elite competitors will be more likely to overcome any innate advantages. It's the average athletes who would get beat out

@@MS-pd7fc you're just using a different word to refer to the same thing as me. Have you ever seen a moderate major league baseball player take batting practice? If you didn't know any better you would think he's Babe Ruth, 100% of major leaguers smash the hell out of the ball, even the ones that are crappy compared to other major leaguers.

It’s girl, not guy

I remember doing kids class karate for a bit when I was really young, and I was put with this 10-year old girl when I was 15 because there wasn't anyone else at that moment. We were practicing some punch or whatever, so I just did these super slow not-even-a-jab type things. After one of them, she just keels over and starts crying. I didn't even understand, but I must have actually tapped her hard or something because she was sobbing for what felt like forever but was probably like 20 minutes. Felt like utter shit all night and whenever I did any sorts of martial arts, judo or whatever after that I just let the women do whatever and didn't fight back. Still remember it today.

what both of you described is very anecdotal. I can recall boys also crying and being pathetic during sports. there are many cis women who are naturally athletically gifted, muscular, tall, high testosterone, “ballsy” and would deffo put up a decent fight against you guys. a lot of women are pushed away from perusing sports though so that’s why it seems like these women are so few. now I’m not saying differences related to athletic performance in the sexes just don’t exist (I haven’t completely made up my mind about this trans in sports subject) however it’s not as dramatic as you guys are implying that cis women could never in a million years be on a cis mans level

@@emmie599 Nope, that's actually the case, please don't delude yourself into thinking that. Even a woman at the 90th percentile in strength would lose a balls out fight with a man in the 20th percentile. The difference is so massive that it's just not even funny.

@@emmie599 The thing is that the differences get even more extreme at the poles, as the distributions of whatever you're thinking of (speed, strength, etc), while they may not be too far away for the average male vs female, they will end up being miles off at the end of the distributions, i.e. where competitive sports matter. I challenge you to find any sport with and objective and comparable success metric where top women in competition do better than top men. I can find you many sports in the 2022 olympics where the men's qualifying standards were better than the women's world records. This whole argument is not about whether the average transwoman has significant advantages over the average ciswoman. At high-level play an even tiny advantage can mean everything. Improving times or distances becomes more and more difficult the better you are, so that even the tiniest of advantages is extremely relevant.

what a deranged and conspiratorial thought.

Right? Jesus.

I legit think Lebron could 1v5 the WNBA all star team and win by 50.

After watching at 25x myself, I will say this was quite salient.

@@_alreph currently watching at the speed of light, y’all not like me

@@CabbageYe there is still stream delay, I heard it from inside destiny's walls

GIGACHAD

@@Minecraftdemon99 there is a sound travel delay, I was under their desk

They are not even barred...they can compete with their own sex

@@jammadan exactly, I think I added that on my next time stamp😂

i pay him in rubles

Its crazy how uninformed people are when it comes to this sort of thing. Small differences on 1 end translate to huge differences when you start to scale it upwards. There might not be huge amounts of research into trans athletes, but theres a ton of study on similar topics.. Like for example, minor behavioral differences creating huge social issues on the other. Like men and women should be more or less equal in chess, but because men are sightly more likely to enjoy chess they're A LOT more likely to enjoy it more than average... And when you keep scaling t upwards, at the high end of chess men will make up like 99% of all players (purely because of a 1% difference at the starting point)... Same with video games or different careers.. Even if we perfectly tested for everything, you'd find any small differences making huge impacts. The guy destiny is talking with clearly doesn't understand that. The guy was literally claiming that being in the 99th percentile in terms of height, strength, speed, bone density, etc (compared to other women) won't make a difference because they're still within "normal range" for a female... When in reality even if theres a similar pool to pick from any of these small differences would still create huge imbalances.

It's true that top level athletes have remarkable bodies. Usually freaks of nature that can't be matched by sheer training alone. Sports are a celebration and spectacle of remarkable people. The question is are there certain ways in which people are remarkable that undermine the value and purpose of sports. When athletes turn themselves into rounded out science projects it goes against the spirit of sports because they're remarkable in the wrong way : this is an athletic event not a science fair

Take it to the logical conclusion....remove men and women categories. That would mean the end of women in sports. Tell those fools its not even about the winning, its about denying a woman her place in sports

Not all cis women are equal, therefore why not let cis men compete against women? If we're just going to let some people take a little natural steroids. Just let people take a lot of natural steroids.

Or heart size/lung size which is pretty important. Not too mention something very basic like menstruation affecting training time/intensity. It’s just not every going to be fair.