If the jedi were evil, then the sith aren't automatically good.

I'm not a fan of disney version of a Jedi, you just have to believe in yourself and there you go, you're a jedi now

The prequels rightly showed how good, virtuous people can have their flaws exploited by evil. And Disney ran with this as they redefined what "balance in the force" is to appeal to a cynical modern audience

They added so much more depth to it. They weren’t just the blatant good guys. They had their extreme flaws and short comings too. Which is a lot more interesting than just a group of people who can do no wrong because they are aligned with the light side of the force

The Prequels never gave that notion. Most of those ideas came from the sequel trilogy and some Clone Wars episodes and it had people go back and analyze the Jedi and deconstruct them more.

The Jedi Way IS a paragon of true virtue. The Jedi Order, right before the fall, are still absolutely good, but had lost their Way.

"Pure Evil" they are clearly channeling Anakin on Mustafar "Well in my view the Jedi are Evil!"

Those people who said the Jedi are pure evil were trolling plain and simple... Unless actual Sith Lords were voting...

We 100% need a series between TPM and AOTC. So much potential and mystery between those 10 years. Getting so tired of the Mandoverse timeline. Bring me back to the Prequel era. The best era in Star Wars imo.

The biggest problem with the Jedi was they became an arm of the Republic. But they where definitely good, in dnd they would be (mostly) lawful good. But the prequels gave you an impression of how powerful and effective they had been for a long time. They just send 2 Jedi to handle the Trade Federation and everyone just thought they would handle it,only because of Palpatine did it go south. By the time of the prequels the Jedi where complacent and just assumed they could handle anything

The fall of the Jedi is very close to the story of King Arthur and his knights. How a warrior brotherhood came together, and fought for peace, against marauders and other, more villainous knights. They established a just and prosperous kingdom. But over time, the work of maintaining peace wore them down. Eventually, vengeful bad actors exploited a forbidden romance between a knight and a queen to split the whole thing apart and bring Camelot down. Bringing back the times of barbarism and violence. Camelot fell, but while Camelot lasted, it was much better than what had come before. The Knights weren't perfect, but they were the best that had ever been up until that point.

The problem with presuming the poll results would've been different pre-prequels is that apart from a couple of lines from Ben and Vader, and Yoda's idealized lecturing during Luke's training, we're given really nothing to go on. So any poll taken then would have pretty much relied on how people imagined them. And as a someone who became a fan of Star Wars with the original trilogy in the 70s and 80s I can tell you that pretty much everything in the prequels was VERY different to how I'd been imagining it for 16 years.

In Greek & Christian thought, there are 4 types of love: philia (friendship), eros (romance), storge (family), and agape (selfless love). The first 3 involve some element of selfishness since there is a reciprocity involved, and so can be perverted into something bad. Agape is the type of love that Jedi aspired to: a selfless love of others that puts those peoples' interests beyond their own. Anakin lost himself in eros (for Padme) and storge (for his mother) and so fell to Vader. Obi-Wan lost himself in philia/storge for Anakin on Mustafar which is why he couldn't kill him: he loved him too much and so could not place the interests of the larger galaxy above his own feelings. I would argue the Jedi Order was similar, but they had too much storge (a family-like protectiveness for the Republic) and lost sight of the agape they should have felt for the galaxy (and the Force) as a whole.

13:00 - 13:24 Interesting that you showed a picture of Maul from Rebels episode Twin Suns because Obi-Wan said something similar in that episode to Maul. "If you define yourself by your ability to take life, the desire to dominate, to possess, then you have nothing."

A lot of people watched the prequels when they were a child and connect strongly with Anakin and see the Jedi from his perspective rather than viewing them through a wider lens.

This is the problem with skipping Attack of the Clones. It explains that the Jedi didn’t start the war, nor did they want to get involved. They got pulled into the war because their former Knight was leading and orchestrating a confederation that were building a military by the masses to engage in a civil war, and then that same Knight essentially (as far as they were concerned) kidnapped one of their Masters. When it became found out that Dooku was behind it all, and that Senator Padme was correct in that he tried to have her assassinated, they likely felt it was their responsibility to go deal with the problem. Yoda, after learning of the Clone Army designed for the republic, likely offered himself and the Jedi Knights as generals to handle future conflicts as quickly and efficiently as possible, while avoiding as much destruction as possible. I’m sure Palpatine played a big part in pushing for this, to further manipulate the Galaxy to go against the Jedi, and if the Jedi stayed out of it, they would likely be blamed for all losses in the coming war because it was their Knight who became the leader of the CIS. Besides that, we don’t really know if the Republic had much of a military at the time, much less qualified generals to lead a war whilst avoiding as much blood shed and destruction as possible. Lost story short, the Jedi had no interest in the war, but were likely cornered into taking responsibility for Dooku and eventually taking the responsibility as generals to the Clone Army to HOPEFULLY (though clearly unsuccessfully) bring about a swift end to the coming civil war without being too hasty and negligent, either.

Hey, Thor. I've been wanting to ask you. Do you think Sabine dooming the entire galaxy by letting Thrawn escape and billions of people will die because of her and Ahsoka allowed it to happen is just as bad as Obi-Wan leaving Darth Vader alive a second time? Because in the first episode, Ahsoka had the map in her hands and was aware of what it means, and she had the chance to destroy it and she doesn't. Just like Obi-Wan had the chance to finish Vader off, and he doesn't. What is up with Disney making our heros so much worse by making them responsible for the actions of Vader and potentially Thrawn? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I really think it’s ridiculous that some people think that the Jedi are “evil” in the prequels. Obviously they are the good guys but they are clearly misguided on some topics. Like romance. It feels like they’re confusing love and lust(you embrace love and avoid lust). The only Jedi council that was really evil was the one from the KOTOR comics. They murdered a group of Padawans & tried to murder Zayne in the council tower.

To quote a meme'd line from Star Trek Picard season 1, "Sheer...fucking...hubris" or Bane from The Dark Knight Rises "Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you!"

I think the Clone Wars TV show pushed the perception of "the Jedi being evil" far more than the prequels did. The prequels portrayed the Jedi Order as virtuous negotiatiors/samurai like-warriors who had became dogmatic, blindsided, and misguided after a thousand year period of peace and prosperity.

i think it comes down to Lucasfilm once again trying to change what a Jedi is. pointing to the fact that the jedi were flawed in the prequels as a reason for that. yes the jedi were flawed, but that doesn’t mean that the order itself needs fundamental change like Luke and the sequel trilogy suggests. if anything just small adjustments to the jedi code. but because Lucasfilm see’s an opportunity to change the jedi and make them represent what they want to represent they’re running with the idea that the jedi were “wrong” or need “massive change”. not in service to the story, but to sell their agenda

Hey Thor, I was wondering if you have ever seen the Attack of the Clones deleted scenes. There is a compilation of them on KZfaq and they are extremely interesting, especially the scenes of Padme's family. The dialogue and acting are very natural and they really help sell Anakin and Padme's relationship. I really hope someone out there "finishes" or refines the scenes so we can finally have a directors cut of a very misunderstood movie.

You need to release the HK-47 battle of the heroes and villains.

Being Jedi is a career, not a title one earns simply by willing it. You don't become a Shaolin Monk or a Templar Knight in one day because you believe in yourself. It takes rigorous training and understanding of both history and culture and tremendous dedication. Which is why Luke was supposed to be so important in the grand scheme of things, not to kill the Emperor (though it helped), but to take the 25.000 years of Jedi culture and ensure it survives the passing to the new generation. Instead, Yoda burned the past and declared it was not important.

I really can't believe how, time and time again, your and my look at the star wars concepts of force, jedi, sith etc. keep matching perfectly. I am always delighted by how you constantly keep describing your views in videos like this one, and how perfectly does views of yours align with my own. I love your point of view on star wars topics and at least 95%, if not more, it is identical to my own. Thank you for having such great process of thinking through most of the topics you discuss in your vids, and being open minded while being very logical and always trying to be as objective as you can be. Thank you, a ton, for making these kind of thought provoking videos and tackling topics of morality, justice, good and evil, right or wrong, that come up within the star wars universe itself and/or even in our real world, often making parallels, comparisons and analogies between the two. Never stop being that way, who you are and how you do things. Cause you are awesome and are doing awesome work here with your youtube content. Thank you again!

It's a pretty interesting concept to think about how maybe the force won't always show you the way to go and the Jedi had to come up with rules for situations where the force wasn't telling them what to do. They need to respond to many situations in order to not be seen as creepy monks by normal people but that means they have to stray away from strictly listening to the force

"Some people think the Jedi are evil." WELL, THEN THEY ARE LOST!

Honestly, I think you'd get different results immediately after ROTS came out rather than after TCW and the Sequels and years of theorycrafting.

The jedi way is knowledge and defense, living in harmony with nature, and being selfless over selfish. It isnt for everyone, nor does everyone live up to the ideal

It's a truth that with any large undertaking or organisation that, given enough time, the organisation itself becomes the most important thing to it's members rather than the principles that founded it. The Jedi (especially Yoda) had become far too rigid and inflexible because of this.

When you are one person, you can easily have your standards and it would work out more often than not. But if you're leading a huge organization it's a total different story. That's the difference between prequel jedi and original jedi.

Naw, not "evil". Incompetent definitely. It's kind of like poetry to the "I am *NOT* a committee!" exchange in ESB. The Jedi *were* a committee, and we see where all those talks and politicizing got them.

But if Qui Gon is such a good Jedi, why did he have to die other than plot demanded it but everybody else survives a Lightsaber through the chest?

Great topic! I love where this discussion is going and hope you continue to delve into the deeper philosophical issues surrounding the Jedi and their destruction.

Of course you even including an "evil" option just invites "trolls" to vote for it. But also, your poll question just wasn't good. You didn't define what you meant, so people voted based of their interpretation - and maybe some "trolled" because they realized it was a bad question.

The PT showed the arrogance and hubris/pride of the Jedi and how it led to their downfall.

When I first saw the OT in 1997, then followed by the Prequels in 1999, 2002, 2003, and 2005, I wanted to believe that they were the perfect examples of heroism and what we should all strive for. But keep in mind, I was a child (97 - Age 3, 99 - age 5, 02 - age 8, 03 - age 9, 05 - age 11). Once I got older and became a young adult, and started understanding the nuances of the world, especially the tale of good and evil, I started looking internally at the Jedi and realizing, "they brought all their issues upon themselves due to incompetence and flat-out ignorance." As well as refusing to listen to the Force and focusing more on the rules that they had created. Their downfall was more than someone hiding under their nose, it was partially them refusing to blow their nose. Even in your What If, regarding Finn being the main protag of the sequel trilogy (great story by the way), when he had his exchange with Luke and Luke explained why Jedi forgo attachments, and how Finn explained that he's heard this rhetoric from the First Order before and now the Jedi are telling him the same thing, it was in that moment that I realized, personally in my life, "I don't think I could actually be a Jedi, if I existed in this universe." I guess we all wanted them to be the examples of the Force, the way Obi-Wan and Yoda both explained them to be in the OT. But the Prequels told us the truth and was like, "actually guys..." But most religions are like this, anyway. Great in ideals, iffy in execution.

Ruin Johnson and The Last Jedi saw to that

I don't think we can put that one on the prequels. All they did was show that the Jedi can have flaws and could make mistakes. The movies still showed them as good people trying to do the right thing. But people that could be caught up in dogma, become over confident and be manipulated by evil. They added to the context of what the Jedi are and can be. But they were still shown as good as a whole.

*"From my perspective, the Jedi are evil!"* 💀 - Those people

I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and as young men, when we go on missions, we are asked to adhere to certain standards, which includes sacrificing a lot of what we enjoy doing (including dating--we even have a saying "lock your heart" in regard to this) in service of the Lord and preaching the Gospel. These are necessary standard to keep our hearts and minds inclined to God and the sacred mission we have been entrusted with. Viewing the Jedi's mission from a similar perspective, it makes a great deal of sense that they would sacrifice personal desires for the good of their mission, the people they intend to serve, and the will of the Force. It affords them a focus and ability to "hear" the Force they likely would not have otherwise. However, I think that eschewing family relationships for life is a step too far. It isn't healthy or necessary to be able to focus on their mission. Forgoing family for a time? Sure. For life? Not a good idea, imo. It might be harder in some ways to have family, but to be able to have family and yet trust that no matter what happens things will be okay, learning to focus and "be mindful" of the present, as Qui Gon might say, would make for more resilient Jedi in the end, I think.

One has to ask why the Jedi could be wiped away so "easily"... the Jedi seemed to be a force for good (no pun intended), but they were clearly misled/misguided... that can happen to anyone

Hey Thor, have you read Inquisitor Rise of the Red Blade? It covers this subject very well. The Jedi are good on the whole, but they lost their way in the prequel era. This books shows how their rhetoric and blind following of their rules and dogma shaped the life of a padawan who didn't fit the mold. It's beautiful in its tragedy. Would love to hear your thoughts. May the Force continue to be with you.

Hey Thor, could you maybe make a video digressing regarding to "what is to be a good jedi"? I mean, what would be the day to day tasks and what would they do or not do. The only example we have is Qui Gon? If Luke had re established a perfect Jedi Order, what would be their role and what would they do? My thoughts are from Heir to the Empire where there's a scene where Luke out of the blue is asked to mediate a discussion between two aliens. That seems like part of the Jedi tasks, like a peace negotiator. But I would like your thoughts!

StarWarsTheory seems to often speak of the Jedi as evil, and as if they were specifically going against Anakin in a way that turned him into Vader (almost ignoring how much MORE Palpatine’s influence brought about that outcome). Seriously, a lot of his fans believe that the Jedi deserved death. Mind you, those same fans are the type who see themselves as Sith, if they were born into the Old Republic era.

To be honest, Yoda knew what would happen and accepted the Jedi’s downfall as quoted in Yoda’s statement to Sidious, “The future is not yours, YET.” In addition, the Jedi knew they cannot escape Sidious’ trap and will just have to survive it.

To quote one of my favs "Well then you are lost"

The Jedi are for all intent & purpose good,they are the obvious antithesis of the Sith,who are by all definition evil,these lines have always been clear despite the Jedi who fell. It seems when discussing the "failure" of the Jedi,they often leave out the the component of deception masterfully devised by none other than Darth Sidious. We can talk all day about the hubris & arrogance of the Jedi but these emotions are everpresent in all humans. Sidious took the strengths of the Jedi: knowledge & defense,serenity & clarity,& turned it against them. They became soldiers instead of peacekeepers thrust into a war that in time clouded their judgement,unbalanced their emotions,which ultimately led to their disconnect with the Force. Sidious also warped the galaxies perception of the Jedi during this war,again something i see left out when discussing the fall of the Jedi,Sidious doesn't receive credit as the most integral contributor to their destruction. For those who truly feel the Jedi are evil,are merely products of our current society. We now live in a world where basic morality has been compromised. Few believe in good & evil & some believe in this theoretical concept of a grey area,& since Star Wars has always used the dichotomy of good & evil,those films George made generations ago are more like an old way of thinking to the generations of today,just a simple truth.

I showed the 6 Star Wars movies (plus Rogue One) to my girlfriend, she said: I can't blame Anakin for going to the dark side and I always thought that scene when he went to Yoda for guidance and all he got was "careful you must be...the fear of loss is a path to the dark side...attachment leads to jealousy, shadow of greed that is", perfectly encapsulates this. While well intentioned, it was clear Anakin needed much more guidance and support than that.

4:06 Good guys always win, good guys always win!

I think Lukes despair came more from the fact that he basically failed to see the flaws that had crept in and made the same mistakes again and then couldn't improve or innovate to overcome them, in part because he might have no frame of reference except what Yoda and Kenobi told him, who where a bit selective with the truth to him. Although he seemed to handle it well as long as it was just him, when he tried to build an order he had no idea what to do and fell into the same pattern that harmed the previous generation.

I don't feel like they were evil, but my conception of the Jedi following the original trilogy and how they were in the prequels was very, very different. Largely because the focus on fear being the path to the dark side in the original trilogy and then you turn around and find that in the prequels everything about their order was FOUNDED on the FEAR of falling to the Dark Side. It seriously hurt the way I looked at them.

Best star wars channel. Hands down

I have lived through most of star wars fan faces, and until the last jedi, which they said that the Jedi were at fault there was a change of perception agains prequel jedi, but the weird thing is the said they where at fault but the jedi was put in a tough spot agains there will, even windu said there where peacekeepers not warriors, aka (they are a peacetime order) and they were manipulated on to a no win war. PSA: a lot of people like to said that there where blinded by dogma, but none of them get's in detail into why it exist, but that is more of a teological talk very subjective.

I feel the Jedi are and always were good. The Prequels showed the Jedi were good and doing good. I feel the issue comes from a few things. First a fundamental misinterpretation of Qui-Gon's character. He was an advocate of the Living Force while the Jedi Council believed in the cosmic force and the idea was both were meant to right. Take Anakin for example, The Council was right to fear he was too old since he became Vader, but Qui-Gon was also right he was the chosen one. The second issue is the redefining of balance by some people to mean equal light and dark instead of no Sith which is based on a misinterpretation of what the word actually means particularly looking at the Eastern influences George used like Taoism. Balance is supposed to synonymous with all that is good and chaos and disharmony and evil are the result of imbalance. Third, some people fundamentally don't understand the Prequels and how the Jedi were stuck in the ultimate quagmire with the Clone Wars. People act like they should have sat it out when in reality they were going to be eliminated if they took that path too. Finally, some fans somehow got into their heads the Jedi kidnapped kids when every source points to them instead doing the exact opposite.

Lucas forms an institutional, constructivist critique of the Jedi in the Prequels to show us that dogmatism often leads us down a path which doesn't even follow what gave such dogmas meaning in the first place. Ultimately, high organised religion can stray itself away from its core belief, and such a dilemna can be even more problematic if it gets intertwined with politics and economics. The Jedi forgot to listen to the Force - instead, they listened to dogma, and lost their way, in doing so, losing the chosen one to the Dark Side by refusing to listen to him. Such a critique and exploration gave immense subtextual, contextual and thematic depth and it's a shame people would rather put their boring expectations of what the Jedi should be (perfect, infallible) rather than listening to what the artist behind the Jedi has to say.

Maybe they were right declining to train Anakin. He was actually conflicted. There's no determinated future in Star wars, it's in motion and depends of choices. Anyways, is necessary to remind that the main reason for not training him is his conflict, not his age. And thats why Yoda sees the decission of the council to train him as a mistake and perceives the danger of training him and tells so to Obi Wan.

*Thor, C'mon Bro...* 🤨 Little was known about the Jedi Order in the original trilogy. There were only 4 Jedi in those movies if you count Vader. In small doses they were pretty cool and mysterious. The only thing the prequels did was show that when you have a large group of 10,000 Jedi, they are collectively, a bunch of assholes not evil there's a difference. Essentially they acted like a bunch of frat bros, they spent a lot of time together and seemed cold and distanced towards people who were not in the group, a clique of space wizards that were a component of the republic bureaucracy. For example, the woman behind the counter at the DMV isn't evil she's just an asshole. 🧐... 😳 *"NUFF SAID"™️*

Thank you for doing a Star Wars video as opposed to a Disney star wars video. It’s so refreshing to hear discussions about the broad ideas about the prequels as opposed to the shallowness of the Disney era.

That second comment was very perceptive. I think that those that said that they are evil are judging by the prequels and rationalizing why they fell. One camp looks at how they turned a blind eye to corruption, and what they were willing to do in Clone Wars including giving military commander positions to pre-puberty teens, taking infants from their parents, indoctrinating them into an institution were they aren’t allowed to develop emotionally and such, and their blindly followed a Sith Lord. While in the other camp, we’ll,.. worship at the alter of Anakin / Darth Vader not understanding that not was a core aspect of his character arc inspired by Lucifer’s fall from grace, and if they are willing to over look everything that he willfully and/or impulsively did as applied that reasoning in our real world, that they would also need to consider how they perceive those who committed the similar crimes against humanity without feeling like a hypocrite. The few others are just being sarcastic.

With regards to the control of emotions for jedi alot of the old books would describe the use of the darkside almost like a strong drug or addiction that the force user would have to fight to not have it take them over. They would have to have strong self control to combat that feeling or pull of the darkside. This would explain why they were so extreme with trying to surpress their emotions. It's one of those things were it isnt necessarily a bad thing to keep your emotions under control but like all things in life you need balance you can't go to much one way or the other because both extremes will lead you to a bad end.

I wonder how many rules the Jedi Order had? Anakin touched on this a bit during the World Between Worlds episode of Ahsoka; Qui Gon taught Obi Wan a certain way, who in turn taught Anakin a certain way, and now the Clone Wars forces Anakin to teach Ahsoka a certain way. Each teachings passed down from master to padawan, was different based on the state of the Galaxy at the time. And I think the teachings would have looked very similar through the generations, if the Jedi Order had not decided to follow the will of the Senate, rather than the will of the Force.

The Jedi, I have similar opinions as expressed in the video. The only thing I would add is that the way of the Jedi seems to be very similar to Greek stoic philosophy which I am currently interested in. I do get upset when people say the jedi are evil. My cousin thinks this. She never likes Luke sky walkers character and always like Darth Vader in the original trilogy. I don’t know why… Dogma, hubris and attachment led to the imperfection the real human Jedi were shown to have in the prequels. I personally think Luke at the end of rerun or the Jedi showed an example of what a Jedi should be. As did Qigong Jin in the prequels, I think Luke was very similar and would have acted as Qigong Jin did at the time of the old republic.

"Fear can make wise men fools." This can define the Jedi orderband Anakin Skywalker in the prequel. Jedi Order shown they move always from the force, and fall into politics, (and real world, we see that all the time on Twatter people acting like dumbass.) Anakin, while didn't get the best help from jedi order, his action was still his responsibility. When he talk to yoda for help about dealing with death, (naming Padme) Yoda did tell him what he needed to hear and be prepared for such thing to happen but Yoda didn't know the whole truth like Sidious did to give the best answer.

People love to pull out the “Jedi council is meant to be totally toxic,” which is totally at odds with the movies, which often present their actions and policies in an actively heroic light. As with all things Lucas, the ideas and metaphors are combined in odd, contradictory ways that they work less the more you think about and analyze them. The OT reduced its politics to aesthetics and morality to dark/light and worked perfectly well. The prequels are clearly trying to aim for more nuanced ideas and a more explicit attempt to echo real-world politics, but Lucas’ gee-whiz tendencies undercut them.

Was the poll about Jedi in prequels, or Jedi overall? Was it about Jedi portrayed, or actual concept of their way? So I didn't vote, only commented.

Thor, what are your thoughts on an unorthodox Jedi? Not gray, like true gray, but just unorthodox instead. I never liked the idea of a jedi who doesnt believe in the dark side and light side but what about believing in those differently, as in its the user who is dark or light, not the force itself.

jedi-ism as a belief system is noble and virtuous, though it's probably got some flaws. but the jedi themselves are mortal and far from perfect. on another note, the "knights" part seems to have been dropped since the prequels. the way old ben used to talk about the jedi knights, it sounded quite idealistically good.

definitely a part 2!!!

3% isn't allot the larger percentage is 59%.

I wouldn't say evil per se. Misguided, definitely. That's why Luke in legends was great, he saw how the old guard was flawed and made a new jedi order. They needed to change, not be purged no, but definitely needed to change.

If you took the state of the Galaxy at the end of Revenge of the Sith by itself, with no thought given to video games or expanded universe content, Anakin DID fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the force. There were two Jedi (Obi Wan and Yoda) and two Sith. (Vader and Sidious.)

Hey Thor, You once said that Animated Star Wars was the way to go forward with the franchise. (Circa 2020) Given all the live action shows now, do you standby that statement? I personally find most of the series have been somewhat lacking in the world building and not giving us the best stories and visuals compared to The Clone Wars and Rebels (and Lucas Movies). Thoughts?

An opinion on Jedi being evil- the idea of an extremely powerful and relatively tiny group determining the fates of the galaxy could be considered evil, even if they claim to be good or actually do good. 10,000 people exert their will and determine the fate of an entire galaxy, removing the free will of independent beings who didn't ask for the Jedi order to take such a role They also seek out a select group of children and by either insinuating it's "God's will" or by targeting those who are poor or disadvantaged, they persuade loving parents to give their children up and agree to NEVER see them again. They only take the children young enough that they can't really consent or resist and who are essentially brainwashed by being cut off from everything they might care about. And if they do start to care about something they will get a long talking to about how caring for something, rather than everything, is bad. They don't even really remove the kids independence, they make sure they were never independent to begin with Even if this organization works for "the greater good", or their view of what that is, it's actually a pretty screwed up thing to do to someone. Let alone 10,000 someones at a time. Sometimes intentions aren't what matters and the ends don't justify the means I still love most of star wars and the Jedi order

The idea of the Jedi being evil was pushed forward primarily by OG Trilogy fans who felt betrayed by the prequels. OG fans grew up having the Jedi on a moral pedestal. They thought that they were absolute paragons of virtue who only fell because a bad apple sold them to the devil, with no fault on their own. And since we only had the descriptions from Obi-Wan and Yoda to go by, it's quite understandable. However, that create some MASSIVE dissonance when Lucas portrayed the Jedi, or at least the Jedi Order (and let's not kid ourselves, for all fans at the time that was a distinction without a difference), as a flawed institution. And that felt... wrong. The Jedi were supposed to be this beacon of light in the darkness, not a bunch of chaste up-their-asses monks out of touch with reality. So when the new reality was finally interiorized, the whole thing suffered one hell of a pendulum effect.

I just thought they explained how the Jedi failed and why they fell. Because when we see Luke, and how badass he is in Return of the Jedi, we were like "How did anyone beat an army of these guys??" And the Prequels did a great job showing how "bogged down in procedure" the Jedi were. And Qui-Gon showed how far they had fallen away from the Will of the Force. When Obi-Wan is talking to Windu and Yoda in Attack of the Clones, and he says that "Anakin's powers have made him arrogant" And Yoda says ~ "a trait far too many Jedi share". Windu and Obi-Wan both nod. But the scene is hilariously ironic, because all three of them are commenting on something they themselves suffer from. Obi-Wan was arrogant to think he could properly train Anakin, Windu is arrogant asf " I do not think the Sith could have returned" and Yoda is too convinced that Qui-Gon was "defiant" rather than in tune with the Living Force and that he (Yoda) had it all figured out "Failed I have". So they weren't evil, we just saw them depicted at their weakest. And shown why they Fell.

The Problem with the OT is that we see like what? 3ish Jedi? they were far more mysterious there for better or for worse, the PT showed us what most of them were like rather than two survivors, a turncoat and a newbie.

In a word - yes.

The core issue is not that the Jedi are evil, but that they had lost their way, to dogma, politics, and other things to the point where they had lost the will of the force and in some ways needed to be destroyed, or at least rebuilt from the ground up.

Hey Thor, I'm surprised that my vote (paragons of virtue) turned out to be the smallest faction of the fanbase. I think people just like the idea of the "grey jedi" too much. Like there has to be some redeeming qualities to the sith or else they can't enjoy the fun force abilities or personalities they have. I don't even get the arguments for the people trying to say its a "people vs principle" thing. Even the prequel era jedi were embodiments of selflessness. Their decisions to go to war, to help the wookiees, to expose themselves to inquisitors in order to protect an innocent, etc, etc. I can't think of one jedi from the prequel movies that acted in a selfish way, sans Anakin, who wasn't a very good jedi. I'm getting tired of this "the prequel jedi weren't following the will of the force therefore they were morally wrong" argument. Following the will of the force has nothing to do with morality lol. You can say its "wrong", and I think thats fine, plenty of interesting stories regarding fulfilling/denying fate and its consequences. And I am willing to state that straying from the will of the force was "wrong", but it had nothing to do with morality. The reason the jedi were dogmatic wasn't due to selfishness. For example, the Jedi being unwilling to train Anakin initially, wasn't due to some form of greed or an attempt to keep power for themselves the way a sith would think about it. The decision ultimately came down to a desire to protect others, not laziness or some form of selfishness that would make the choice morally wrong. And I really don't think it was even just following the rules for the rules sake. If you are trying to convince me that Yoda and the other wisest people in the galaxy didn't understand the reasoning behind the rules in the first place, I think you are gaslighting. They agreed to test Anakin in the first place even though he didn't fulfill those precise rules in the first place. That suggests they were willing to make an exception to the rule if the test was passed (hence weren't just following the rules for the sake of the rule). And even if they were just following rules for the sake of rules, that wouldn't be morally wrong (or morally right). That is a neutral action when it comes to morality because "rules for the sake of rules" isn't coming from a place of selflessness nor from a place of selfishness. The jedi didn't lose because they were straying from the path of morality or even because they weren't following the "will of the force". They lost because their midichlorians and ability to use the force was weaker than Vader and the Emperor. I think the movies made that very clear. And because they were outsmarted. The movies make it very clear that the Dark Side of the Force is just as strong as the regular force. Darth Vader is of comparable power to Anakin. The only difference is that the dark side of the Force is "faster" and it is corrupting. I'm curious what you think of my defense of the prequel jedi. Do you have examples of the prequel jedi acting selfishly? And maybe you can make a video (or point me to one that you already made) of how not following the will of the force is inherently immoral? Is this some sort of Star Wars' version of a Divine Command Theory of ethics? IE its wrong because God says so kind of thing? I always felt like Star Wars was promoting more of an Altruism (Jedi) vs Egoism (Sith) ethical framework.

I missed this poll. The Jedi are obviously good.

I voted ''wrong and misguided'' didn't think that counted as ''evil'' O.O

I soooo hate this "Jedi were evil" or even "misguided" concept. They were dogmatic, knowing the how fragile and dangerous force users could be become. But always benevolent, always restrained, always cautious (if over-cautious). The "bad" Jedi were quickly dealt with (Barriss Offee, Pong Krell, Count Dooku). The Aksoka situation was an exception, see "over-cautious". Palpatine and the dark side rise to power because the Jedi were outplayed. Overpowered. Overextended in the Clone Wars. And too trusting in the Republic that had become corrupted, again, by the forces of darkness.

The Jedi in the prequels are like the Medieval Catholic Church. Well-intentioned but too involved in secular affairs and politics.

In the original trilogy, we didn't see the Jedi as all that different from normal people. Luke was an everyman, but with cool, heroic fighting abilities. The prequels took that away. All of a sudden, they were these puritanical zealots. The idea that Anakin could be kicked out of the order for his affection for Padme was something we hadn't seen before and was very off-putting. That said, the idea that the Jedi fell because of their dogma is a lot of nonsense. They fell because Palpatine ambushed them, plain and simple.

There Are a "small percentage" of posters in the pole - they're Sith. Obviously.

People just want to be able to say something bad about Jedi... The Jedi represent virtue as much as any entity in that universe can - that's the bottom line. Who were more virtuous or well intended than the Jedi? Nobody. So stuff it already. Making the Jedi fallible in the PT actually made them more real - not less virtuous. Additionally, it lended the idea that dark side is powerful enough to have such an influence over them that it clouded their judgement. Catch that? Their judgement was clouded by the dark side vis a vis Palps - NOT because they lacked virtue. Proof? They did very well (apparently) for 1,000 years or so until Palps was on the scene. Where's the lack of virtue then? Nowhere. There was no lack of it. The Jedi became puppets due to the influence of the dark side. Luke was wrong in TFA. It wasn't hubris; it was manipulation. Because they weren't total superheroes, they fell to a scheme. Has nothing to do with lack of virtue or "other issues". Dang. Did I just defend the PT?

Some people basically view the Jedi as a quote "problematic cult". Especially with things like wanting to take people from their families as children and the rule against attachments. I don't know that I agree with all that, but I do think that growing up with the Original Trilogy left us feeling more like the Jedi were noble heroes who were betrayed by Anakin being manipulated by The Emperor. Then the Prequels kinda leave the impression of them as uptight dogmatic snobs. I get George wanted to lay ground work for Anakin's turn but it's possible he over did it. One area Legends I think gets right is by having Luke choose to do things differently with his Jedi order showing a learning from the mistakes of the past. I WISH the Sequels had showcased that. If they had then I think then the Jedi of the prequels would perhaps be more viewed as a era or errors rather than as any kind of last word of what being a Jedi is.

1:02 stealing kids (taking baby’s from their family because they are force sensitive no matter what the family’s have to say on the matter, Palpatine’s family had to bribe officials to hid him from the Jedi so he wouldn’t be taken, kinda makes me want Disney to make a set of what if’s for Star Wars one of which would be palpatine becoming a Jedi) this is a really touchy subject for a lot of people and for them there is no possible excuses for taking a child away from a loving healthy protective family. Myself I call the Jedi order a Cult, a well meaning cult but a cult all the same, you don’t have to start sacrificing kids to old scratch to become a cult and the Jedi order most defiantly ticks all them box’s to earn that tag, they go far beyond the realms of a religion when they start imprisoning people for life or longer just because they have a different perspective to you, they were planning a similar punishment for Ashoka for a crime she didn’t commit, also remember the type of imprisonments they use you are fully awake but unable to move or talk all you can do is scream in your own mind it’s a wonder they didn’t make a dark side blackhole under their temple with how much dark side power that must build up. Personally I don’t see how you can look at all the stuff leading up to return of the Jedi and not come to the conclusion that the Jedi were at least misguided, if you stop short of calling them a cult then you most definitely have to call them religious zealots just look at how they handle the news that Palpatine is the Sith Lord? They just charge in headlong not thinking about any of the problems them attacking him will cause, Mace says “”your under arrest my Lord”” and “”the senate will decide”” but he isn’t thinking, the only evidence they have is the word of Anakin who says that Palpatine told him that he is a Sith Lord but from a legal standpoint they have the word of a Jedi that the person the Jedi just attacked was a Sith which isn’t actually a crime in the republic. I think Mace starts to realise this in the seconds after Palpatine had been disarmed that’s why he shifts to “”he is to dangerous to live”” which is a true statement but they also have no hope in hell of making anything stick, their only shot is to kill him then try and smooth it over afterwards and all because Mace zealously charged in without thinking of what he was doing to him and the Order Anakin saying that someone had told them they were a Sith was more than enough reason to imprisoned or kill him.

I'm a bit confused as to why the Jedi= evil silliness is making its way through the fandom. The answer to the title is no, if it was the Prequels fault this line of thinking would've gotten a helluva lot more traction twenty years ago instead of right now. The Jedi are flawed and misguided but very far from evil.

I'm just saying the Jedi in my story about Darth Revan and Bastila Shans descendants that takes place in 46 BBY and 45 BBY and beyond. The Jedi on the planet called Almas which is in star wars legends aren't like the Jedi on Coruscant. They don't go into politics etc. They hold on into the old ways of the Jedi.

Yes

It really is great how the Prequels are getting the recognition they deserve after the backlash of a lot of the Disney Star Wars stuff. I have always loved the Prequels. They got me into Star Wars. They really did add so much more backstory to the overall story of the franchise. They also got better after the Clone Wars. I understand they are flawed but that doesn’t make them bad.

An interesting story idea in the new canon (and one that was touched on more than a few times in Legends) is with everything that the galaxy knows about the Jedi, does the galaxy truly need the Jedi? You can have political factions who view the Jedi as a vigilante group that needs government oversight. You can have pseudo-religious factions who view the Jedi philosophy and actions as evil and they should either be replaced or destroyed. You have pseudo-political/anarchal factions who just want to bring down governments or any form of control and provide "true freedom" to the galaxy with the Jedi being in the way of that. It's a shame that current writers for Star Wars aren't working on this theme.

No. Bad question. There was frack all info pre ep1.

3% really are lost

Can’t believe I made it into the video! Thanks Thor, made my day

It's funny the things people point to that show the jedi counsel as old and out of touch and "sticklers for the rules" would have prevented the triumph of the dark side. "He's too old", "attachments are forbidden", etc - if these guidelines had been followed Darth Vader would never have come about and the sith never win. Listening to "true jedi" Qui Gon brought about the end of the order. Just another example of George Lucas's "brilliant" writing.

To me, the core issue with the Jedi is that the magic system is too soft. What I'd do to help clean things up is make it so the number of midichlorians in a living being could grow in number through using the force. I would focus the Jedi teachings on slowly growing the midichlorians to increase one's force powers while the Sith just allowed them to grow uncontrollably which is why their bodies break down faster but they are typically stronger. I'd also make the ranks of the Jedi more distinctive. Padawaans would mainly use physical attacks, Knights would incorporate some force powers, mostly the more basic and universal ones, and Masters would rely more heavily on the force and rarely draw their weapons.

I think the jedi themselves were well meaning, but as an organization i do view them as evil. They only recruit young kids so that they can mold their personalities into something that suits them. I know that they're doing it with parents consent, but it's utterly unfair to the kids, who were too young to make that sort of big decision. Since also they discourage bonds, that means if someone decides to leave their order they will have probably no one to help them them after, which is how real life cults operate. I still do remember that clone wars episode where Ahsoka got falsely accused of a crime and how the entire order treated her. Finally I think the Jedi were very much misusing their position in the Republic. They were perfectly fine staying politically neutral while the democracy was crumbling and Palpatine was gaining more and more power, but the moment Palpatine happens to be a Sith they just storm into his palace and attempt to arrest a head of state implying essentially a coup. In summary as long as you're not our philosophical adversary, do what you want, but if you are we will use the most drastic means to depose you.