The idea of grey Jedi comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the dark side.

Gray Jedi is a concept for people who want to have their cake and eat it too.

We have two extremes, Apple Juice and Cyanide. Grey Jedi believe the best drink is a 50/50 mix.

Thank you I was worried I was the only person who can't stand the idea of "gray jedi" I cringe every time I hear a fan talk about it.

Grey Jedi. An attempt by fans to justify using the Force for "whatever" without being called "bad guys"

Didn't the idea of "Grey Jedi" come from Star Wars games? Basically - "I want the good ending, but I also think Force lighting is cool."

I don't think there is a "gray Jedi" in either legends or canon. The closest we get is Jolee Bindo saying "I see more gray than dark or light" but that was him trying to simplify his philosophy to Bastila, who at the time was pretty naïve. Jolee still followed the light side. He just didn't believe one has to be a Jedi to do it. Revan is also often mistaken as a gray Jedi. But he has only been either light or dark, not both at the same time. Revan was just more rogueish and pragmatic than most Jedi. Similar to Qui-Gon. Seeing the Jedi Code more as guidelines than rules. But that doesn't mean he was some Jedi Wolverine. The Imperial Knights were also clearly light siders, not gray. But they were more like the Blades from Elder Scrolls than Jedi.

I find it annoying when some people called Qui Gon Jinn a "Grey Jedi" when he used the Force to "cheat" in a betting game with Watto. It's like they don't understand the circumstances Qui Gon was in.

I think the reason that explanation from Anakin in Episode II gets ignored, is because it comes off as him making stuff up to flirt with Padme, when in reality, he was convincing himself that it was okay to be with Padme because of the Jedi ways he was taught (which are true). It's similar to how people believe the prophecy was wrong because Yoda says it could be wrong, when in reality, Yoda is simply doubting it and opening the possibility of it being wrong.

It's actually impressive that a fanbase that loves to point out that a hero needs flaws also has such a hard time accepting the jedi as the good guys because they aren't perfect.

I remember the first reference I ever saw to a "grey Jedi" was in the old West End Games TTRPG books (2nd edition), long before the prequels. I no longer have the books (unfortunately), but from memory their concept of a gray Jedi was a Jedi who had fallen to the Dark and was struggling to return to the Light. These characters were designed to have trouble with their Force abilities, often being unreliable due to their personal internal conflict. A very different idea from the current popular definition.

Something else I noticed about jedi that become bad, pon krell, Anakin and Bode, is they seem entitled to others respect and agreement because of how accusative they become when normal people are saying he is acting wrong. A trait of the dark side the jedi don't have is demanding respect. Jedi tend to explain their position. Where the Sith exhibit narcissistic or manipulative or insecure behavior.

Hey Thor, thanks for responding to my comment in this video. I appreciate your candor and willingness to debate your viewpoint in this video. I admit, I probably could have worded my previous comment a lot better and not have taken an admittedly one sided view of the situation. While watching your video, I agree with your point on the Sith being an entirely destructive way of life, with anyone who goes down that path being corrupted to the point where their former selves might not even recognize who they have become, even if it was a desire to do good. The abilities of the dark side are more focused on bringing power to the individual, not on helping others. And you are definitely right about the Jedi being able to have emotions and friendships, even love. I totally missed the mark on that so thank you for debating that point. I sometimes completely forget that it wasn’t completely the Jedi’s fault that Anakin turned to the dark side, that most of the fault lies in Anakin himself. Instead of understanding that Padme may potentially die one day, Anakin made a choice to save her, but at the cost of everyone else. His choice was made in selfishness, which is the choice that led him to the dark side. Feelings themselves aren’t inherently bad, it’s the choices you make that can lead you to become a Sith. Obi-WAN could have chosen to get revenge on Darth Maul after he killed both Qui-Gon and Satine, but instead he chooses not to. So thanks for debating that point. On the third point, you are definitely right about it wasn’t the system that was the problem with the Jedi, but particularly the people of that system that failed the original view of that system, particularly some the members of the Jedi council in the years during and preceding the Clone Wars. Systems of government are only so good if the people in charge of those systems do not become corrupt or lose sight of what the original institution was meant to do or stand for, and while there were members of the Jedi council that tried to do their best when they could, there were others who were dogmatically believed in doing what they thought the Jedi Code told them they should do. On the last point, I agree with you on the point that you don’t have to use to dark side to know the dangers of it, as with your example with Yoda in recognizing his own inner darkness, but choosing to reject it. He knows it is a part of him and always will be, as each person in our world has the potential to do bad or terrible things, but he chooses to not give in to that darkness, to never use the dark side, even if it is with good intentions. My favorite Jedi is without a doubt Qui-Gon Jin, and there are many both in the fandom and in lore that consider him a Grey Jedi, and I’ll admit that until this video I was among those who considered him that way. But after watching this video and thinking about it a bit, I wonder if instead of labeling him as such, he can just be labeled as what he truly is: a Jedi. So thanks Thor for debating this topic with me and changing my viewpoint on this topic. I look forward to your next video discussion.

3:30 The reason why a lot of people dismiss the arguments Anakin brings forth in that scene is because he has to be considered an unreliable source at that point. He is clearly highly infatuated with Padmé, so contruding the teachings he learned in a way that supports his hopes of a romantic liason between both of them is something that can be considered believable for him, particularly since he's at an age where such approaches to conventional wisdom do come easy. We can also see this narrative already play out as at least one of the reasons of Anakins fall to the dark side, so him misinterpreting the teachings would align with him as a character not being "devoted" enough to the teachings, basically already showing the flaw that will ultimately be his downfall. Anakin himself states that he "defines compassion as unconditional love", which is in essence an interpretation. One that many might share and one that is certainly related to the concurrent definition of the word, but crucially one that's not 100& congruent. Lastly, we can interpret Anakins words as an attempt to appease Padmé - who is concerned for Anakin to follow the rules of the Jedi - as well as to woo her with a slightly romanticised interpretation of the Jedi's teachings. So basically it's easily dismissable because it doesn't come from a source that has no hidden agenda, but from a hormone filled teen who's treating his security job as a romantic vaccation with his childhood sweatheart. The only way for Anakins statement to be interpreted as even more of an unreliable source would be for him to state that he would've just taken some psychedellic drugs and/or be a compulsionary liar. There's not much more room left to become more unreliable as a source as he is during that statement.

Your earlier video about what balance really means changed how I viewed it in terms of Star Wars. I really agree with the Dark Side being imbalance and the "Light Side" being the balance. It's Truth vs Error, when you come down to it. I still have qualms with the execution of the "no attachments" bit of the Jedi code specifically, since I think they perhaps take it too far in certain ways, but I get why George used that in his world building for them.

A constant problem people have with understanding the Jedi is that the problem was not the system refused to change the old lore was the the Jedi Order that existed during the clone war had went through so much changes and reforms that it didn't match those that came before it. Remember the Jedi of the past could have kids and family. Not all reforms are a good thing, the Jedi idea of the Clone War Era that people had problem with was said to be because of a recent reform.

I always think back to Jolee Bindo when I think of "gray jedi". He didn't dabble in the dark side, he was still attuned more to the light. He simply didn't exactly walk the path of light fully. He could be selfish at times and grumpy. But also capable of great selflessness when called for. Plus I like what Jolee has to say about love. ",Love can damn you, but also save you".

Hey Thor, for a long while I've had a question lingering in my mind about Luke Post-ROTJ. Should his Jedi Order have a no kill rule? Vader being his father absolutely was a driving factor for his reluctance to killing him but Luke is also very adamant that there is good in him. If Star Wars truly preaches that everyone is capable of great good and great evil then how is it just to not treat everyone with equal compassion? The only justifications for that really strike me as off-putting. "If you aren't willing to kill you will eventually lose" and "for the greater good" being the main ones. The utilitarian mindset that Jedi have to kill because they'll eventually be put in situations where any other choice results innocents suffering, to me, just misses the point of heroism. The second you make morality into a numbers game, it instantly gets messy. That's how you get your Luthen Raels of the Galaxy claiming it's worth it because it's for the greater good. Doing the wrong thing can easily be effective but true heroism and selflessness isn't about "winning". Sometimes it's about losing for the right reasons. I guess where I think this truly gets tricky is with the question of who is selfish? The person that can't let go and accept defeat or the person that can't let go of their convictions and potentially stop countless tragedies. Would be really happy to hear your take!

I really like how you tackle the questions and complex topic. The way you brought up things from different scenes was very on point! Really enjoyed this video, keep it up! :D

"We all got a chicken duck woman thing waiting for us," - Obi-wan Kenobi

I wouldn't even call Ashoka a grey Jedi. Cause she still stands by Jedi morals. She just doesn't tie herself down to the code neither does Quin Gon

Game of Thrones once said love is the death of duty. But duty could also be the death of love.

When a lot of people discuss gray Jedi, what they're really hinting at is an alternate way of following the will of the force/using the Light side that is divorced from the Jedi way. Just as Dathomir infamously has non-Sith Dark Side users, there too must be Light Side users throughout the galaxy who aren't strictly Jedi but still follow the will of the force, like the Baran Do or the Fallanassi from the Black Fleet Crisis books. Star Wars fans so badly want the lore and galaxy to expand because we haven't gotten that for awhile, and reaching for "gray Jedi" is a misguided attempt at that.

"Grey Jedi" is an awful term. You are either a Jedi or you aren't. There is no middle ground. That's like say you're a "Grey Police Officer". There's no such thing. You are either a Police Officer or you aren't. No middle ground. Grey Jedi need a better name. It's just awful marketing. No wonder fans hate them.

Grey jedi are a cop-out to gain the benefits of both light and dark without dealing with any of the perceived downsides.

I think that it is appealing and makes sense if you don't know the lore as well. I use to like it before I truly realized how the Force works. There can be Jedi who have fallen in love and it have had no problems because they were Jedi first and I like when they do that since it does make things more interesting and makes them stronger because of their commitments both to the Jedi and having their families. But unless it is used as a gameplay mechanic where you have the choice to turn to the dark side and you can still use them if you wanted to even though they break the lore (like in KOTOR) or in a story where a Jedi begins to fall to the dark side then any Force users who want to be Jedi or Jedi like should not be using any dark side powers since it is a dangerous and highly addictive drug.

Logically, you would think a Grey Jedi would be the worst choice possible for a Force user. A Sith draws their strength from rage and hate. A Jedi draws their strength from calmness and clear focus. Two completely opposite ideas. A Grey Jedi can't merge them All you would get is a really watered down force user. A half-angry Jedi with really weak force lightning and sloppy lightsaber combat because they aren't focused.

Fans say the Jedi needed to be "Gray," but also say that Mace Windu was a "Gray Jedi" and symbolized everything wrong with the Jedi Order. Lmao

I remember there was a video years ago talking about the myth of the grey Jedi and why they wouldn’t be the ideal if they did exist but since the video was defending the last Jedi, it didn’t gain as much traction

5:52 - "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire." Not "the Galaxy". Not "serving the Force". *The Old Republic*. I don't know where you get this idea that the Jedi were not supposed to serve the Republic. Show me that source in EP 1 - 6.

It makes me think of KOTOR where Dark Side abilities like Force lightning seem really cool and useful against enemies. The concept of Gray Jedi treats the Dark Side and Light Side as different skill trees, and Gray Jedi having access to both sets of abilities (Force healing and Force Lightning). In a video game, that would be cool. But in the stories, the Light and Dark are different approaches to power (The Force). Using power selfishly or unselfishly. And following one path makes it impossible to follow the other because they are diametrically opposed.

It always irritated me too. People who like the grey Jedi so much seem like they want to have all of the power but none of the responsibility. They want to be cool but not play by the rules.

I like the concept of Grey Jedi, but more of a headcanon version developed through decades of Star Wars roleplay, not the widespread believe that they are the "correct" form of Jedi or even say they are "balanced". I very much like the idea of a rogue Jedi or someone who was previously a Jedi often struggling with (and perhaps very rarely embracing) the Dark Side to a precarious point, but not truly falling, though the risk of falling is there. The only "strength" or "advantage" to this kind of Grey Jedi would be perspective and understanding. They don't get "stronger" because they use light and dark, they aren't perfectly "in tune" with the force because they use the light and dark. It's more a curse of the given circumstances of their life than it is a boon, which to me makes it very interesting. It's also worth noting that a Grey Jedi doesn't need to be a Jedi with this definition, though likely was at some point. "Grey Jedi" just sounds a lot better than "Grey Force User" or "Grey Sith". "Jedi" is a colloquialism in the Star Wars universe oftentimes for laymen talking about "people who can use the force". Which is how I perceive the word.

Not to diss the commentor in any way, or anyone who makes such misconceptions (believe me, I was one of those for a time), but anyone who has read the books and comics and played the games that took part in the Old Republic would know that the Jedi back then don't block themselves from emotion. They are not robots, they still have and acknowledge their feelings. Like the Buddhist and Shaolin monks from East Asia that they are based off of, they don't let those feelings drive them. They are supposed solve the problems of the galaxy through quieting their mind and stretching out through the Force to find the answers, not going with what _feels_ right to them. There are multiple examples of Jedi who acknowledge the darkness that exists within them and fight it. They fight it because to embrace it is the path to the Dark Side. Such examples being Quinlan Vos from the Dark Horse comics (the Dark Disciple book is a YA, trashy, condensed version of what was written a decade and a half earlier), the canon story of Darth Revan, Ulic Qel-Droma, Bastila Shan, a whole host of characters from SWTOR, and Mace Windu. None of those examples are considered Grey Jedi because to fight against the darkness within oneself, to resist it, that is the core of being a Jedi. It is not to resist or fight against feelings, but to resist the temptation that those feelings will control you and impassion you. Because once you start down that path, as Yoda had said, then it will consume you. 9:00 The problem that I have with this episode is that Yoda is 900 years old. He should've already had recognized that there is also a dark side within himself but by this point he has _mastered_ it. He doesn't let it control him. That is essentially what makes most Jedi Knights rise to the ranks of Master. They have mastered a part of themselves. I find that the examples that I have already listed or even of Anakin's vision inside of the cave of Navaan (Nevaan?) is a better example of a character who already has a dark side within them and what could happen if he lets it control him. 10:35 Eh, I disagree. In the games of KOTOR I and II and Jedi Survivor, the players have chosen and experienced the dark side and its powers and abilities. They showcase how quicker and easier it is to use those powers, thereby making more seductive to the player. In a book called "The Jedi Path" it lays out the principles, codex, and teachings of the Jedi Order. This includes the concept of the gray Jedi. "The so-called gray Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with the Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council. Gray Jedi make compromises, cut corners, and hide their actions from scrutiny, all under the assumption that their experience makes them authorities on policy. They are mavericks who are difficult to control, but can be valued members of the Order after they have been persuaded to follow the established hierarchy." From this paragraph, it establishes that gray Jedi are indeed a thing, but they don't follow the guidelines, rules, or directions by the Jedi Council if they don't want to. In some situations, like in the case of Qui-Gon Jinn, it can be thought of that they are following the Will of the Force. However, in others, they are more likely to do things for selfish or personal reasons. In any case, they are still part of the Jedi Order. The book also goes into the misconceptions of the Jedi Order as well including the topic of shunning emotional commitments, that they are kidnappers, brainwashers, and elitists. However, it's too much that I can put down in a YT comment, so I hope that Thor gets the book someday and shares his thoughts on it.

I think there are 2 completely different and fundamentally incompatible interpretations of the Force in Star Wars. The film version, where the light side is the true side of the Force while the dark side is a corruption of that true side of the Force. So from this perspective, Jedi selflessly listen to the Force while the Sith selfishly command it. And the EU version, where the light and dark sides are essentially equivalent sides of the same Force. In this case, either side can be drawn upon without necessarily subscribing to either Jedi or Sith ideals. In this version it wouldn't just be about listening to the will of the Force vs rejecting it or selfishness or selflessness. Kreia described Revan's fall to the dark side as a sacrifice, and while I guess that could work in the context of the light side being the only Force with the dark side being a corrupted version of it, I think it works better when in the context of both sides coexisting in equal measures. Where an ultimately selfless sacrifice for a greater good or the 'will of the Force' could be made. I'm pretty sure Jacen Solo had a similar situation, but I don't know that time period nearly as well as the old republic era. Additionally, the Mortis Celestials support the EU version of coexisting light and dark sides of the Force. That's why the Father is presented as neutral as in the EU representation of the Force, the "true" Force is between both the light and dark sides of the Force rather than just the light side like in the films. As such neutral Force sensitives (such as the Je'daii Order) which do not subscribe to either the light or the dark can exist just fine, and so can the concept of a grey Jedi that follows the Force rather than its extremes. While in the film version of the Force, there's no such thing as a neutral position between the light and dark sides of the Force. The Mortis Celestial Father cannot exist in the film version as he would be one who's somehow in between the true Force and a corrupted version of the Force. There you're either using the Force selfishly and corrupting it for your needs or you're listening to its will and drawing upon the true Force. Meaning, grey Jedi cannot exist in that context.

The only thing I like tied to this is the idea of purifying a bleeding red lightsaber crystal after winning one from a dark side user, very cool samurai esque concept reforging a broken blade. Possibly a living one. And the result is a white saber cause its like bleached itself. Kind of like its healed but still exhibits the scar of its past corruption.

To have said it from the start, I don't really disagree with anything you said in the video. Just a couple points that it made me think about. One, I think the idea that Jedi are expected to be emotionless or emotionally suppressed comes from people interpreting that scene in Episode II the way I did: that Anakin was just trying to "mental gymnastics" his way around justifying a love affair with Padme. In other words, I always thought he was kind of lying in that scene, at least to himself. But the words are a little misleading either way; "attachment is forbidden, possession is forbidden" can't possibly be *completely* true because as you point out, Jedi have friends. And it may be just a matter of degree, but there's always going to be some level of attachment with friendship. Also they, at the very least, have their lightsabers, possessions which are so personal as to give you hints about the owner's character. Two, as far as "Grey Jedi" are concerned, I always assumed it was a holdover from the EU. When the EU books first started coming out in the early '90's, nobody really knew what a Sith was yet (as in, essentially the dark side opposite of a Jedi, we only knew it was a word that Vader was associated with somehow). Force users were classified as "Jedi" or "Dark Jedi," depending on whether they were light side or dark side users (Vader himself was described as a "Dark Jedi" once or twice, if I remember correctly). The term "Jedi" seemed, to me at least, to describe a Force user who had reached a certain level of control over their use of the Force, light or dark. So the idea of a "Grey Jedi" fit in sort of right in the middle, not a (fully light side) Jedi, not completely a Dark Jedi. Of course, it doesn't fit at all in the universe Lucas eventually fleshed out with the prequels, where you could be a masterful light side Force user but not an actual Jedi, or a deadly dark side Force wielder but not an actual Sith.

This is why Luke is my favourite Jedi: he allowed his students to have attachments freely but teach them how to overcome the darkness inside them

Hey thor, so ive been going through some old EU novels, and on some occasions, there would be characters that would be on the side of the empire, yet their views on the empire would not be so black and white (the hand of judgment and Paelleon come to mind). That the empire at its core was about bringing peace and security to the galaxy. Im curious as to what you think on these "good imperials" and on a more nuanced look on the empire instead of the absolute evil it is usually portrayed as.

Gray Jedi are popular within my saber community and i think it comes from a few factors. Prequel era Jedi are seen as a much more conservative restrictive controlling organization and people want to be badasses, its kind of baked in that maverick and cool means you cant be a traditional Jedi. Another factor is Dark Side powers are seen as cool, so they don't want the corruptive consequences of being evil, but they do want the power so they say Gray Jedi to claim there is a middle path that lets you use darkness but also still be mostly good if again "a lone badass" Personally i think Gray Jedi are just Jedi in the process of becoming Sith without realizing it. If not Sith, then Dark. Using the dark side is an addictive feeling, and you can only stave that off for so long before it gets its hooks in you. Anyway i think you can have a "cool" and "compelling" character as a Jedi, you just have to have good writers

I don't like the idea that the dark side can be basically "tamed" into a force for good or balance. If the dark side is not stronger but instead more seductive, then what is left of it if it can be subdued and used by those it would work to seduce and corrupt?

I think most people "ignore" the Anakin part in Ep2 because it's his own interpretation. Compassion is sympathy, not unconditional love. Even as a teenager first seeing it, I saw it as Anakin trying to make a loop hole for liking Padme.

The Jedi don't BLOCK off love, hate, etc. They simply learn to let go of them, and let them flow away. That's what living in the moment is like!

The reason why the concept of a “gray jedi” is appealing is that the idea that Light = Good Dark = Bad is reminiscent of infantile black and white thinking that we all grow out of as we mature. Gray is a clumsy way of trying to make it all make sense to an adult mind.

A video that goes really in depth on this topic is the foundations of Star Wars by the guy with no username. Highly recommend

A stupid aside: In one of the TTRPG editions of the Star Wars RPG (the one based on the 'D20 Rules' system), it was set up where a Sith got powerful early on in his 'Levels', but in the end the Jedi would be more powerful (more dice of damage, better 'saves', etc.). In other words, patience would win over the rush for power (and the Dark Side would begin to eat your body as well, as at that time it was thought that the Emperor's appearance was due to his Dark Side connection).

Hey Thor. I was wondering, is Force sensitivity a curse? It seems that having these wonderful gifts that come with it inherently makes you more vulnerable to the dark side than it is for a person who can't feel the Force. The Jedi's solution to this problem is to love everyone unconditionally and never form strong emotional attachments to anything or anyone. But recently I've been thinking. If you love everyone unconditionally, doesn't that technically mean you don't love anyone? Do you think that a Force sensitive is forced to choose between the dark side and a life without thrill, personal love or anything that makes you feel alive?

My understanding : Jedi : Know the will of the force, and will follow it. Sith : Know the Will of the Force and will bend it to their will. Themselves > The will of the force I guess Gray Jedi is ignoring the will of the force all together?

To me, a grey jedi was not an inbetween of jedi and sith. But a Jedi that used the darkside. Not a pure light jedi, but a jedi nonetheless. A type of jedi that uses the enemies abilities against them like an antivirus. Think Kyle Katarn. He's a jedi that uses darkside powers. That doesn't seem like bad writing to me and can be a cool thing to explore. Imagine a story wear some jedi have to learn how to use some of the darkside in order to defeat a type of wound in the force like darth nihilius who can only be fatally harmed by darkside abilities. In said story, the jedi struggle with the urge to resist the darkside and try to find the sweetspot where they can use it without being corrupted. It the end, they become even more resistant to the dark because they now understand it.

I think that when people talk of a grey Jed, they don't mean a Jedi that uses the darkside... but rather anyone using the force and a lightsaber who doesn't follow the rules and doctrines of the Jedi, without being evil. Like Jolee Bindo from KOTOR.

Haven't seen the video yet but I already love how much I know I'm going to agree with you. Hate this fanfiction bs

I have a question, what about the Nightsisters? I heard they use the dark side in such a way to were they aren't consumed by it, atleast not to the extent of the sith. The nightsisters aren't grey they're full dark side yet they're able to care for each other and see each other as family dispite using the dark side. The dark side is supposed to corrupt, destroy and kill everything and everyone right? So how are the able to form a coven and a sisterhood? Is it possible to use the dark side simply for selfish reasons and that's it or is the dark side destined to turn you into an evil killer who wants to take over everything or destroy everything?

While I personally like the idea of someone being a Sith without being evil, or even a Force User who wants to use the Force but doesn’t want to be part of the Jedi Order (having played that way in The Old Republic), my take on what a Grey Jedi would be is a Jedi that disagrees with some bits of the Code. A Grey Jedi does believe in good and using their powers for good; they just don’t agree with the Council or the Code on certain things. Someone else mentioned Jolee Bindo, and he’s what I think of when I think of a Grey Jedi. He still helps people; he’s still believes in being a peacekeeper. But he didn’t agree with the council, so he more or less left the order. Also, I will admit to being one of those people who likely misunderstand the Dark Side. I think of it as the savage side of life; fire, storms, hungry predators. Probably because I think of it as powered by passion, and passion is what helps us get things done.

I'm going to say it: people who argue for the Grey Jedi and/or the Balance being "a bit of both Dark and Light side" just like the fantasy of a Force user wearing cool black robes, shooting cool lightning, having no rules regarding intimacy, being sometimes edgy AND being considered "good" at the same time. Essentially, they want to have their cake and eat it, too.

I feel like the fan interest in the idea of Grey Jedi is reflective of the popularity of the Anti-Hero and morally ambiguous characters in media. It also might be that a few would like to see some Jedi use more dark side abilities like force lightning. Disney Star Wars has also muddied things a bit by showing Rey do exactly that (again with no training to do so) and being less than clear about what "balance" in the force actually is with things said by Luke in TLJ.

Two people shout their philosophy across a room, one says Light! and the other Dark! the casual person in the middle not wanting to judge either person concludes the answer is in the middle not realizing that it is the Organizations that demand the extremes

Hey Thor, I agree with this video where you're talking about Jedi encouraged to feel emotion. I got this impression from the prequels and Clone Wars instead of the common held belief that Jedi are meant to be emotionless robots. My question is, should they really be as full of emotion as they are, taking in consideration the Jedi Code? "There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony." My interpretation of the Code is to be very situational i.e (acting on behalf of Jedi, you should put all outward emotion aside for inner peace. However, as we know Jedi can have personal lives where they aren't necessarily acting on behalf of the Jedi, where showing emotion would be more appropriate.) Do you think the Jedi at the height of their power in the prequels have turned away from this code or abiding by it?

That is my fear with a lot of things right now, with the Acolyte, the New Jedi Order, etc. They are going to use it to justify completely changing the Jedi from what they are to what they want them to be. Or to be blunt Kennedys last fuck you to the fans.

Attachments can lead to the Dark Side but they can also lead you back to the Light Side

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea." - Kreia

Hey Thor, fun one this time. Do you think Captain America would make a good Jedi, and who else from marvel Canon would you see could also be?

Gray Jedi are a paradoxical concept. The light side of the force requires you to act selflessly, whereas the dark side is pure selfishness. To become “powerful” in either, you must fully commit to it. The gray is noncommittal to either side and therefore not in the full embrace of the darkness or light. The middle ground is essentially nothing. Too selfish to be really selfless, too selfless to be truly selfish. There are many examples of when a crisis of identity happens when a force user is noncommittal to the direction they chose and they lose the strength of their connection to the force (i.e. Darth Bane, Rahm Kota, early years Vader, even sequel Luke)

People look at Qui-Gon or Ahsoka and assume they were grey Jedi, but they're literally prime examples of servants of the force(the light side) what the jedi are MEANT to be. The Jedi didn't fall because they rejected the darkness in them, they fell because they served the republic rather than the force.

The force: love and protect The darkside: kill everyone Grey jedi believers: I think we should find a middle ground

Hey Thor, What do you think of the idea that the Jedi should have freed Shmi? I think the Jedi didn't do it because it's against the law in the Republic, and any participation in the slave trade, even for good reasons, is promoting the slave trade (i.e. the greater good). If Qui-Gon had lived he would have (ie. a good deed is always worth doing).

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Hey Thor. I just finished watching this video and had some thoughts, many of which I've had before after other video's of yours regarding Jedi attachment and not studying the Dark Side. Now, I know everything you've said is correct, but how do you square that with the Luke's New Jedi Order in the old EU where he actively encouraged his Jedi to marry and have children, even amongst each other. He himself having had two relationships from his students, one ending with his marriage to Mara Jade, and producing a son. He would also encourage several, handpicked students to study the Dark Side. He even having studied it under the Clone Emperor. He even would say that he thought the old Jedi way was less than perfect.

I get what you mean but the thought that doing some things out of selfishness means ALL you do is out of selfishness and can't also do some things selflessly is kinda wild. No the ideologies don't match up and while maybe unlikely I don't feel like being in a middle ground is completely impossible

This has got to be one of the best responses to grey Jedi that I have ever seen. It understands that morality does not function in this way where we need to “touch the darkness in order to better serve the light.” In reality virtue begets virtue, and while there are difficult situations and mitigating circumstances, an evil action cannot be a good. I think The Clone Wars did a wonderful job of portraying the notion that you can have feelings, and even desires; but that acting on them is an entirely different thing. A true Jedi is able to integrate these into their person, and not be controlled by them or pretend they don’t exist.

Thor Skywalker so tell me when will gray Jedi and dark Jedi become canon what about dark gray Jedi

Hey Thor, would you be interested in seeing star wars shows (either animated or live action) based on the other unfinished clone wars episodes that were made into other media like dark diciple?

A "grey jedi" is just an early stage dark sider who's in denial. Great video Thor!

Hey Thor, Four thoughts in lieu of a college essay response for convenience's sake: 1) Given everything you've said in this video, what is your opinion on the fact that Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order did away with the ban on marriage and allowed their Masters to study the Dark Side under controlled conditions? Isn't the whole point of the NJO that it was an improvement upon the previous Order's weak points? 2) From all the accounts I have come across, Yoda's interaction with his own inner Dark Side that you cite here seems to be the exception for his time rather than the norm. The Clone Wars era Jedi were being taught from childhood on to view the Dark Side as "the boogeyman" and had no practical experience in dealing with it. Perhaps, if Bariss Offee and Anakin had more experience with engaging with and then resisting the Dark Side, they might have made better life choices. 3) We often quote Yoda from Episode 5 to assert the concept of "The Dark Side is the quick and easy path", but doesn't Bane's Sith Order and it's grand master plan's slow but eventual fulfillment under Sidious directly refute this? The Sith demonstrated a millennia of patience, self-control, and attention to detail, while the Jedi could not detect the Dark Lord sitting on the other side of the table, jumped head first into using a slave army of living beings provided to them under increasingly questionable circumstances (they learned Dooku had a hand in its creation later!), and ran in head first to arrest Sidious on Anakin's word without setting up any contingencies and/or gathering any hard evidence to justify their arrest of the head of state. One could argue that these are all exceptions to the rule, but I argue that this points to Yoda being an unreliable narrator regarding the Jedi and Sith's relationship with each other and the Force, and given that Obi Wan lied to Luke (irrespective of whether he was justified or not) I feel that this is very plausible. 4) The (Clone Wars era and Old Republic era) Jedi teach that attachments are forbidden, but they only seem to apply that concept to attachment to individuals or possessions. The background lore seems to indicate that a number of Jedi Masters such as Mace and Ki Adi were attached to the institution of the Order and/or the letter of the Jedi Code, as opposed to Qui Gon for example, but one could even argue that Qui Gon was attached to following the Will of the Force given that his actions in Episode 1 demonstrate an "ends justify the means" approach (gambling with other people's property, ditching Obi Wan to secure Anakin as a Padawan without any forewarning, etc.).

Grey Jedi comes from people that don’t understand morality

Hey Thor, which show do you like better and why? Andor or Bad Batch.

Hey Thor, when Grey Jedi get brought up, I tend to look at the Jedi Exile and Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2. Canonically the Exile is Light-sided, but theoretically it is possible to go down the “neutral” path, carefully balancing between the light and dark. Which is also something Kreia tries to add to, since she sort of tries to prevent the Exile from fully embracing one of the sides. I think it is sort of implied that it’s best to do what’s right, not what’s good/bad. But the question for me is, what defines being neutral, and how can one know what is right? In the context of Star Wars, at least.

YES. Finaly pushback against this gray jedi stuff, i swear, i remember everytime someone ask "would you be a jedi or a sith" there is someone thinking they are very smart saying "i would be a gray jedi, neither light or dark but balance" and i am like "well, dark side for you then."

Grey Jedi == Sloppy Jedi Poor Sith

It depends on what definition you're talking about. When most people refer to a Gray Jedi, they mean someone who tries to walk the line between the light and dark, which is a dangerous belief. In Legends, however, Gray Jedi also referred to a Jedi who still served the light but wasn't as strict about Jedi Orthodoxy, such as Qui-Gon. This definition also works for Ahsoka Tano, as she left the Jedi Order but still fought for the light. Now, I don't have a problem with them exploring the first definition in Star Wars, since it makes sense for people to view the Force differently. However, it is important to address the dangers that come with this ideology.

Dabbling with the Dark Side to resist it....that reminds me of Jeanne the Kamikaze Thief, an old Anime. There, people are possessed by demons who tempt them into indulging in their worst desires. A Millionaire that owns a famous old sword becomes so paranoid about his wealth that he sees everyone as thieves and turns his house into a death trap to keep his Katana safe. Weirdly enough though, it's often the people who are already greedy, that manage to resist the temptation. An evil Businesswoman seems to shrug off the temptation easier than a nun for example, which is just....odd. I guess you could see it as a Symbole that those who never experience corruption are easier to seduce...but it feels weird. Though, this Interpretation might be how supporters of the Grey Jedi see this situation: You need to experience the darkness to resist it's temptation.

It’s pretty bizarre how some fans consider Kyle Katarn to be a “grey Jedi”, but that’s not true. True he does use some lightning, but he fully embraces the light side. For crying out loud he tries to keep Jaden in the light when he was tempted to kill Rosh.

Absolutely agree don't like grey jedi or people who can use the darkside without being corrupted by it the jedi I think should like the EU evolve to allow marriage in my opinion though

Hey Thor, do you think Star wars galaxy would be better off without the force?

Next suggested topic for "Things People Don't Understand About Star Wars:" Explain how Anakin and Vader are NOT literally two different people.

We agree 100% on this point. I can not stand the concept of a grey Jedi. This is just a sad attempt to justify selfishness at any level. The Jedi are perfect the way they are. If you are not a Jedi you are not a Jedi. It doesn't mean you are grey it means you are flawed. (Like the rest of us) For the Jedi it will always be "Do or do not. There is no try."

I think Yoda's Force trials in CW S6 prove clearly there cannot be "Grey" force users - the whole trial he went through emphasized Light vs Dark - it was presented as you can choose one or the other, there is no twilight Force.

Hey Thor, could video games and some RPG’s be the reason ‘Grey Jedi’ is even a thing? KOTOR 2 had the ‘grey Jedi robes’, which is the most outright example of the term I can think of, and its description pretty much defines what a GJ is to fans who embrace it. Also, the way games like that worked was leveling up Force powers through experience points that drew from a mana pool, which really isn’t how the Force works, to paraphrase Han. Plus, in the KOTOR games, you have an alignment, which, in theory, helps you see how your actions impact you as a person, but really it just impacts how much mana your character needs to use certain Force powers, again not being how that all works. Next, another majorly overlooked line about what it should mean to be a Jedi comes from Anakin’s mom, Shmi: “But you can’t stop the change, any more than you can stop the suns from setting. It is time for you to let go.” This single line epitomizes Anakin’s journey toward the dark side because the Jedi spent more time telling to forsake all attachments rather than understanding he cannot keep them, as that’s life. By the time Yoda tells him the same thing in Episode III, the damage is all but done and the story happens the way it does.

Jedi - Doesn’t seek out to hurt people Sith - Seeks to hurt people Is it really hard to grasp why there is no in betweeny?

I wonder if there could be a grey Jedi but in a much different definition. Cause you can be in the middle of good and bad, with the Dark siding be the most dangerous temptation you can simply and easily be in the middle of that, has some who’s had to battle against the hardest temptations and addictions you have to constantly stay on top cause even the smallest slip up can lead to a full relapse. That could be the more truer definition of a grey Jedi. Someone who knows in the true truest form the temptations of the dark side and helps other stay clear from it. Also if to add something when I hear people say it’s like being on the fence. In church when I was younger we had a lesson where there was 2 sides Jesus and Satans, and separating the 2 sides was a fence. There was a guy he didn’t know what side to choose so he stood on the fence and when both groups left he was contempt and happy with his decision, until Satan walked up to him telling him to join him, but the guy said no cause he chose the fence, then Satan revealed to the guy that he owns the fence.

Now you know how I feel about 'libertarians.'

I remember this guy doing a retrospective on jedi survivor saying Cere has found balance between the light and darkside. Cere actually overcame the darkside meaning that she wasn't even using it.

The very idea of a grey Jedi is exactly what Palpatine used to turn Dooku and Anakin. It's a Sith lie to lead wavering Jedi to the Dark Side.

People think dark and light sides are different sets of powers, and to a certain extend they are but really it's more of a philosophical point of view. Jedi or light side individuals use the force to benefit others, they try not to cause harm but can and will if necessary. Sith or dark sided people will use the full extent available at all time for whatever reason they like. So if a supposed grey jedi uses the force to impose their point of view, they are not grey at all, they are dark sided. You cannot use both sides at the same time, because they are mutually exclusive. An individual can be in the middle for a time but will be drawn to the dark side because it is addictive, and will only be able to do basic force things in the short period where they are unsure where they stand, because both light and dark need dedication.

Gray jedis are a bad idea. They want to have the good parts of both jedi and siths without the bad stuff like responsibility or being called evil. They are more cherrypicking mary sues then a geniune addition to the lore. Gray jedis are siths in denial.

Hey Thor, I have noticed today's fiction consists of antiheroes and themes of the ends justifying the means, or getting entertained by witnessing characters use immense power. The clear distinction between good and evil doesn't seem popular anymore. Therefore, do you think that Disney will eventually bring forth grey jedi in the Star Wars canon? As someone who likes the rules of the Force because they enhance stories, I am really nervous.

To me a gray jedi isn't really sb with 50% light and dark side but instead sb who still follows the light side but for example cuts themselves off from the jedi order and therefore might also not follow their established rules as much as a normal jedi would. Therefore I would call Ahsoka a grey jedi but for me that doesn't mean that she now is part dark side or uses dark side abilities or sth like that.

I agree the concept of grey Jedi is dumb it's just a power fantasy from fans who want to be sith and use the dark side without the consequences

The only good thing about the gray Jedi concept is that it helps me filter out who is worth my time discussing Star Wars with.

I am curious though if it would be really that easy to leave the order without anyone keeping an eye on you. I mean let's say obi or ani did leave to start a family with the ones they love.Remeber they are still really strong in the force and now have attachments. I know Luke's order allowed family but I'm talking mote about prequel order.

I don't think I've heard anyone suggest it before, but I think the closest we've seen to a Gray Jedi is Dooku. He is someone who went to the dark side because of injustices he perceived in the Republic and, by extension, the Jedi. And though it eventually resulted in failure, I don't think he ever lost sight of those ideals. He simply saw Palpatine and his plan as a means to an end. He used the Dark Side, but It never seemed like he lost himself in it like so many others. In all of his scenes, he remained composed and controlled. Regal, even. He probably believed he could control himself enough to take advantage of the Dark Side to bring about the "justice" he envisioned. Again, it resulted in failure, and I think that's the most likely outcome for any true "Gray Jedi". But if they did exist, I think they would look more like Dooku than anything we typically call a Jedi.