Disk rolling down inclined plane - Lagrangian

  Рет қаралды 49,937

PhysicsHelps

PhysicsHelps

10 жыл бұрын

Using the Lagrangian to find the equation of motion for a disk rolling down an inclined plane.
Please leave a comment about the pace of this video. Too slow? Too fast? Do I spend too much time explaining the math? Let me know what you think.

Пікірлер: 36
@RalphDratman
@RalphDratman 7 жыл бұрын
Great! That is just exactly the speed and detail of presentation I needed on this topic at this particular time. So often in a presentation, the math is either being explained too fast or too slow for where I am with the material. If it is going too fast I might give up, or at least I would have to watch the video several times. If it is too slow I am struggling with boredom, which is even more painful.
@benjamincordes207
@benjamincordes207 9 жыл бұрын
Well done. I actually prefer your explanations to both the Khan physics videos (too slow for my taste) and the MIT/Standford videos (too longwinded). It's to the point, clear and covers everything.
@freeman2
@freeman2 8 жыл бұрын
+Benjamin Cordes Yep. GREAT lessons. Much thanks.
@joe34murphy
@joe34murphy 8 жыл бұрын
Great video - really well explained. The pace of these Lagrangian videos is just right as well. Well done!
@ztac_dex
@ztac_dex 5 жыл бұрын
thank you for saving me hours of reading since I needed to review other topics
@Codyyyyyyyyyy
@Codyyyyyyyyyy 9 жыл бұрын
Thanks a ton for these videos on Lagrangian mechanics. They've been a great help while studying for my Classical Mechanics final.
@swizzbeats1212
@swizzbeats1212 8 жыл бұрын
Great video, thanks!
@RexGalilae
@RexGalilae 8 жыл бұрын
+Isaac Newton The integral sign is a part of the Leibnitz notation. Use somthing like a fluxion (o) or an accent to do justice to your profile name =P
@MotocrossDNA
@MotocrossDNA 8 жыл бұрын
How do you derive the equations of motion once you have the final differential equation?? Help pls
@Zolarmew
@Zolarmew 9 жыл бұрын
why did you switch the terms of U in the Lagrangian AND turn + into - ? I think that effectively left undid the switching >.> ...
@elirox100
@elirox100 9 жыл бұрын
Did anyone else find it painful how he didn't divide by M at the end or is it just me?
@GlenishDsilva
@GlenishDsilva 5 жыл бұрын
Its common to keep M to see the forces
@sfpp89able
@sfpp89able 7 жыл бұрын
Hello, Thanks for the videos ! I have a question, when you defined the Kinetic energy , why the inertia is reffered as if the center of rotation was the disk's center of mass. Wouldn't be the center of rotation the point of contact of the disk with the Surface? I mean, displaced R from de center of mass, so the inertia becomes 3/2MR(sq).
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 7 жыл бұрын
In general, you can define different centers of rotation and still get the same answer. With a different choice, the moment of inertia would be different, but the way you'd be measuring theta would also be different, and it would all work out the same way in the end. In this specific case, if you chose the point of contact as the center of rotation, your "rotation" would include movement of the center of mass of the disc, so you wouldn't get the simplifying benefit of separating the rotation and translation.
@Rysdan9
@Rysdan9 7 жыл бұрын
PhysicsHelps I have a quick question that been bugging me. Why isnt the potential energy: the potential energy of center of mass? In other words, if x=0 shouldnt PEcm =Mghcm= Mg(L+R)?? Why didnt we take h (from the bottom of the surface of the place) to the center of mass of the object? Thanks.
@dillonberger4036
@dillonberger4036 9 жыл бұрын
Why did you choose X and theta as your coordinates? I understand the naive answer in that we can use those to describe everything in the system. But how did you arrive at that conclusion? I cannot find a single example on the web or in any book telling me why certain coordinates were chosen. Moreover I don't even know what "kind of coordinates" your X and theta even are. It seems to have 2 origins: one at the center of the disk and then another at the top of the inclined plane. It just seems totally arbitrary and not something I would call a "coordinate system" (since it seems you have two origins). I suppose all of this comes down to the question "how does one go about finding the lagrangian". I get it for specific cases like the double pendulum, but I can't find any general rules.
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 8 жыл бұрын
+Dillon Berger Great question. I don't actually think there are general rules. When I'm approaching a problem, I just try to find some set of variables that (1) can uniquely describe the state of the system and (2) is comprehensible to me. The variables I chose happen to be convenient because they separate the linear and rotational motion, but I probably only did this because I've used the technique before in earlier courses. There are other choices, and no choice is any more correct than another as long as you can uniquely describe the system. Also, this system really only needs one variable. It was just too difficult for my brain to directly write down the whole kinetic energy just in terms of the derivative of x, so I used theta and later eliminated it with the constraint. I could have started with three variables if it were easier, but I would have had two constraint equations relating the variables. Responding to your comment about this not seeming like an actual coordinate system: The variables x and theta may not together describe a spatial coordinate system, but they still make a coordinate system in a more abstract sense. You can think of a 2D coordinate plane with an x-axis and a theta-axis. This is similar to how you can have an x and time coordinate system. "Time" isn't something you can draw directly on the picture, but it's still usable as a coordinate/variable. Hopefully that helps, and thanks for watching and asking thoughtful questions.
@lethaihoa4095
@lethaihoa4095 8 жыл бұрын
+PhysicsHelps Regarding the speed X dot, if you choose the origin differently, says at the lower left corner you will get a different X and therefore different speed X dot. What should be adjusted in the equation then?
@RalphDratman
@RalphDratman 7 жыл бұрын
The term "coordinates" is used in a looser way here. There are no axes necessary. Sometimes they are called "general coordinates" to help make that clear, I think.
@ultimatequantumguy3131
@ultimatequantumguy3131 6 жыл бұрын
I teach people that the coordinates are simply enough pieces of required information to identify any possible points in the system.
@mertgunes9854
@mertgunes9854 6 жыл бұрын
You said the initial potential energy was m.g.l but you didn't account for the center of mass of the object
@mertgunes9854
@mertgunes9854 6 жыл бұрын
so I think the potential term should have been m.g. [ l - x.sin(a) + R.cos(a) ] , please correct me if I'm wrong
@mertgunes9854
@mertgunes9854 6 жыл бұрын
Then again I guess it doesn't matter that much since it's just a constant
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 6 жыл бұрын
Exactly. But I should have been more explicit that I was using a simpler expression and explained why it was okay, so thank you for that feedback.
@luisbreva6122
@luisbreva6122 4 жыл бұрын
What if the plane can move on a frictionless surface?
@zackarysemancik5491
@zackarysemancik5491 4 жыл бұрын
Iirc, it wouldn't rotate if there was no friction.
@anjbennink
@anjbennink 10 жыл бұрын
Why can you neglect the unconservative force of friction?
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 10 жыл бұрын
Good question. Since we're assuming the disk does not slip, we're dealing with static friction, and there is actually no energy converted to heat. The friction force does cause energy to change forms (to rotational kinetic energy), but this is still mechanical energy. The force of friction is conservative in this case.
@RalphDratman
@RalphDratman 7 жыл бұрын
In fact, you could substitute a smooth-surfaced toothed gear rolling on a smooth-surface toothed rail, and the equations would be the same, but there would be no friction involved at all.
@ghostzart
@ghostzart 7 жыл бұрын
@Ralph Dratman: Good point, but I think the real question is: what would the equations of motion look like for a square wheel rolling down a frictional hill made of inverted catenaries? What on Earth does a square wheel brachistochrone look like for that matter? What if the wheel is actually a fractal?
@Pqrstuvwxyz1
@Pqrstuvwxyz1 5 жыл бұрын
Your Lagrange has sign problem.....
@damiananslik6214
@damiananslik6214 8 жыл бұрын
Good video, I have just a quick comment to make about something I noticed towards the end when you were differentiating the kinetic energy part with respect to time. You mentioned that when taking the time derivative one would add an dot, however what you failed to mention is that the mass may actually be time dependent, per special relativity, and as such one would differentiate the mass element, for high enough velocities. I'm assuming that you made an assumption that the velocity of the disk will be less than c, but I think it is important you mention such facts.
@1495978707
@1495978707 8 жыл бұрын
+Damian Anslik This is a method used for classical mechanics. While I imagine it could be extended to include relativistic effects, that would overly complicate the problem and unnecessarily confuse and already confusing problem.
@AL-jg8pv
@AL-jg8pv 8 жыл бұрын
+Liam Clink I dont think the speed of this disk would be high enough to take relativistic effects into account.......unless ofcourse the inclined plain was infinitely long :p
@1495978707
@1495978707 8 жыл бұрын
Yeah, but it should be possible to do the math regardless. It's just not really necessary.
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