Well we never see how ozai was with azula fully he could've been manipulating her.

@@jadencedras6878 He could have been but he could also not have been. We don’t know enough about Ozai as a character to say (which is one of my critiques of how the show handled Ozai).

@@drakearvidsson6936 Ursa loved Azula despite knowing how cruel and psychopathic she was even though it’s not something of which she approved. Her love wasn’t conditional. Ozai “loved” her because she was useful to him. His love was conditional. To defend Azula with this argument, one would have to declare Conditional Love superior to Unconditional Love which might make sense for a romantic relationship but doesn’t for Parental Love.

yeah that definitely makes sense, really well said! i agree with everything you said especially about her upbringing :)

@Monkfruit interestingly, I would posit a case that the only reason Azula is mean as she is in the show is due to her temperament. Generally, when children are born, their genetics can determine their temperament, for it is noted that children with a more patient temperament will be easier for parents to handle and be more decent people overall. In comparison, children with shorter temperaments are harder for parents to handle and are more likely to become abusive or mean-spirited later in life due to not establishing an easier connection with their parents (Azula with Ursa) and being exposed to a harsh environment (the Fire Nation and Ozai's abuse). Obviously, I don't believe the writers knew or ever drew to it being a possibility, but it is incredibly coincidental with both Zuko's character and Azula's character.

I agree! In the comics Azula is definitely shown as super confused and having good qualities. I think if she wasn't raised by Ozai she would've turned out really different

@@monkfruit well it is understandable why she is the way she is. People who say she only got more evil in the comics miss the point and nuisance. Azula has a lot of issues and she will not be able to change overnight. Also she will relapse. Zukos journey has shown how difficult it can be to change and drop values which were instilled in you since childhood. Hopefully with new avatar studios project we will see how Azulas story plays out. For more than 6 years her story was left up in the air. And Smoke and Shadow Azulas last apperance only takes place two years past the end of the show. With 68 years before Korras time. A lot can happen in this time.

You mean Zuko's banishment?

@@Prince-Shogun You’re exactly right, I’ll correct that

@@matityaloran9157 ok, that caught my eye!

Have to keep in mind, Ozai plays a major role in how Zuko and Azula turned out. Azula showed far more potential, thus she was subjected to Ozai far more than Zuko, whom Ozai resented and essentially detached himself from. In many ways, Azula got it worse, because Ozai essentially cut her off from Ursa. Ozai knew that Ursa was a "bad" influence and contributed to Zuko's weakness. He wasn't willing to let her influence Azula and prevent her from maximizing her potential. Then when Ursa left, she was left with nothing but feelings of abandonment that she repressed, only further bringing her into the clutches of Ozai. As for Iroh, you have to keep in mind that he was away for much of Azula's childhood. In addition, Iroh represented everything that Azula was taught to be bad. He was disgraced and seen as a failure, and I'm sure Ozai continuously reminded her of that. So she wouldn't really be in a position to accept his teachings knowing Ozai disapproves. Overall, Zuko put it best, that his banishment was the best thing that could've happened to him. Zuko was able to fully escape the oppression of Ozai and as a result, he was able to learn from Iroh and become a better, more well rounded person as a result. Azula received the opposite treatment, as the more she learned from Ozai (her only real parental figure for her adolescent life), the more her evil tendencies were nurtured and encouraged.

@@SuperSparrow45 Yeah, that’s basically my argument. That Ozai works well as a backstory for Zuko and Azula but I’d rather underwhelming as an antagonist for Aang.

LMAO talking about them like they're a legendary pokemon

@@monkfruit I think you have a very dedicated fan

I love all my fans 🥰

The contrast between "She is crazy and needs to go down", after Iroh fights her and got wounded (a fight that Zuko started btw, she only wanted to capture Aang in that episode) vs "I was never angry" after Zuko betrayed him and got him into prison, speaks volumes about how Iroh saw Azula and how he saw Zuko.

@@Perplexum Azula actively hunted down Zuko and Iroh in an effort to capture them both and in Season 2s first episode fired lightning at Zuko which Iroh redirected into the sea. And she offered reward to whomever could provide her with their location threatening any who didn’t. And she didn’t only want Aang she said “it’s not just Zuko and Iroh anymore now we have a third item on the agenda”.

​@@matityaloran9157 She was given the task of capturing Iroh as a traitor, and although she didn't mind, it was her father's agenda, not her own. And why wouldn't she shoot lightning in a fight? If I recall correctly, Zuko was quite eager to fight her instead of running away as his uncle suggested. Don't start the fire if you can't stand the heat. This is all on the same level what Zuko did to Team Avatar, and yet he was never "the crazy one that needs to go down" in his uncle's eyes.

@@Perplexum In that case don’t enforce your father’s task of hunting down your brother and uncle unless you’re willing to accept that they will be willing ready and able to fight you in response

@@matityaloran9157 Doesn't apply to Zuko apparently.

thank you :)

hahaha I do my best :)

Except that is only intent, also it is not made clear whether the world of Avatar even has the notions of war crimes. If they did have war crimes, then no matter Iroh's intent, he is a war criminal as he attacked civilian infrastructure (a city) and harmed civilians who possibly died by the many and only stopped when he was personally affected by the loss of his son (Lu Ten). Also, it isn't hard to assume that Iroh as a general and heir to the throne, also knew and perhaps partook in the Southern Waterbenders genocide, and many other illicit activities the Fire Nation committed BEFORE and during the show as evident in his knowledge of the Rough Rhinos, a gang of Fire Nation mercenaries that committed atrocities.

@@YEY0806 there's always been "rules" for warfare in the form of chivalry but our concept of war crimes and the Geneva convention is a newer concept. My bet is there are honor systems kinda similar to chivalry that are probably unique to each nation but no universal laws of war

@Entire Anarchy I can understand what you're saying, but I'm going off by what the show presents and shows to us. There is no mention of the concept of chivalry or, again, any system that should govern how wars in the Avatar world are "fair." Considering the Fire Nation had committed not only destruction of civilians and civilian infrastructure but also scorched earth tactics as seen in the aftermath of the episode with Han Bai, who is mad with the destruction of the forest as he sees NO way for it to restore. The fact that the Fire Nation also supported Zhao's campaign in the invasion of the Northern Water Tribe, a Tribe that remained neutral In terms of warfare just as similar to Kiyoshi Island who guess what were still INVADED and nearly DESTROYED from the Fire Nation (Zuko still served the Fire Nation). Zhao, an esteemed commander, commits literal blasphemy by killing the moon spirit even though the Fire Nation lives on an ARCHIPELAGO. It's unsure if the Fire Nation knew of Zhao's goals or would even support them, but considering how evidently disrespectful the Fire Nation is already to Spirits, it's probably sure. In further seasons, the Fire Nation reattempts another scorched earth tactic that, if went through, would burn off half the Earth Kingdom, which would kill potentially thousands of civilians and even destroy occupied territory. Of course, we don't see the aftermath and its consequences since this is a kids' show, but it still would be another example of the Fire Nations' willingness to commit further atrocities that are perhaps similar to the Air genocide.

Alguém tem que dizer

me too! I have high hopes for the comic.

Well that comic could start her redemption arc but it's gonna take a lot for her to be fully redeemed. Zuko who was far more compassionate than Azula needed three seasons to come full circle

@@user-tp9uw1pr6m good point

@@user-tp9uw1pr6m it was three seasons. But the three seasons panned out over course of the year.

whoops you are right my bad!

Can you stop commenting

I think it's important to remember that Ozai, while a terrible human, is not an idiot. Ozai's relationship with Azula is more aligned with the way of a neglectful narcissist, Ozai never bothered with Zuko through his childhood and did not even give physical harm (no evidence) until the Agni Kai as Zuko didn't really have any worth to him besides Azula's prodigious firebending and superior intellect. In this context, Ozai, like any narcissist, is more concerned with his self-image of being a terrifying Firelord in front of his subjects, then compromise it in shame of looking weak. Throughout the series, Ozai didn't really have any close relationships besides Azula, since everyone besides Zuko until S3 pretty much are dead (Azulon, Lu Ten) or knew his horrible traits (Ursa, Iroh). As a narcissist, Ozai wouldn't favour those relationships (obviously the dead ones) with those that can see through his bullshit, which is why he keeps both Azula and Zuko close as possible due to many reasons that can be referred in the show. 1. They completely trust him and don't know his manipulation, 2. They are his heirs, meaning he can not outright abuse them. Otherwise, he will lose their loyalty and look like a weak leader. This is clear by the fact that while Ozai discards Zuko by banishment as a way to get rid of his uselessness to him, he still dangles the carrot in front of Zuko as a way to keep him as a tool of further manipulation. With Azula, Ozai can not afford to sever ties with Azula by abuse or banishment as she is 1. His only remaining heir, 2. His most capable tool, 3. She is his only loyal tool left. When he gives Azula the crown for Firelord, it's clear that it is less out of love and more to accomplish both goals of 1. Keeping a loyal tool to govern the Fire Nation and 2. to move on to a bigger supply of adoration and power-seeking without needing Azula to fulfil that role any longer.

@@YEY0806 I agree with everything you said. I even said in the original comment that I had no illusions that Ozai actually cared about Azula

@Matitya Loran Oh yeah I 👍, sorry for me, seeming like I disagree, I do, I just was explaining a possible reason for why Azula went unpunished in order to clarify

@@YEY0806 That’s quite all right

glad you liked it! :)

The issue is that we can not state whether Ursa actually taught Azula how to be a good person or not. Since we only see Ursa through flashbacks, which by the way are seen in context to Zuko and Iroh's thoughts, which could make these flashbacks a case of an "unreliable narrative." Of course, even if they aren't presented as such, it still leaves too much ambiguity to truly confirm how Azula's childhood went to make her into what she is today.

@@YEY0806 Within the context of the show, Ursa is seen through Zuko’s flashbacks and Azula’s hallucinations never through Iroh’s flashbacks. And between Zuko and Azula, I would consider her much more likely than Zuko to be an unreliable narrator given that her own hallucination of Ursa explicitly denied ever regarding her as a monster. You do have a point about there being little evidence that Azula is the product of nature or nurture

@Matitya Loran Even if Azula is an unreliable narrator, we must take into fact that she is having a mental breakdown that developed through both emotional and mental stress as Azula became more alone than ever before with the sudden realisation that her father never cared for her. So, she is clearly not in the right mind to deliberately present an opposing narrative of Ursa. However, the fact that she is still hung up about Ursa after all these years is coerced to view her and the rest of her family as worthless by her father, while also coming with a justification of why her mother obviously would not love a "monster" like her. Only to indirctly admit that Ursa, or otherwise illusion Ursa didn't see Azula as a monster and quite clearly love her shows two things of both Azula and Ursa's character. 1. Azula truly understands that her mother did love her but was afraid of sharing that with Ozai, who she believed would punish her. 2. Ursa actually was a good parent to Azula, and her forced departure felt a hole to be unfortunately unfilled by Ozai's conditional love and manipulation. 3. Ursa wasn't a good parent to Azula, and so Azula is both left in feeling shame and grief for being a "monster" that, of course, could never be loved, which could be conditioned by Ozai to further manipulate her in a vulnerable state. So this illusion that Azula has is probably the one she wishes was true but is hurt that it isn't.

@@YEY0806 I think that tells us more about Ozai than it does about Ursa. But yeah, I think that was a good point

@Matitya Loran Yeah, I seem to not list about Ozai, mostly because I was focused on primarily Azula and Ursa, respectively, as I feel that the show does not explore their stories fully in terms of Azula's ambiguous childhood and Ursa as a character with relationships with others besides Zuko.

I think she actually cares in her own twisted way, but hates him because of how she was raised. During the series there are some moments that may point that she cares about Zuko. One of them is after Ba Sing Se, when she brought back Zuko to the Nation as the prince and not as a prisoner. You may think it's because she was manipulating him, because she told Ozai Zuko killed the Avatar. But let's remember that her only mission was to capture both Iroh and Zuko. She didn't need to capture Aang, so Ozai wouldn't really care if the Avatar was alive or not. Azula told everyone Zuko helped her to conquering Ba Sing Se, she could have just betrayed him and imprision him. There's another moment when Zuko visits Iroh, Azula steps in. She says that he should be careful, not as a way of threatening but as a way of caring. Just imagine if Ozai found out Zuko visited Iroh. Then it comes the Beach episode, in this chapter when Zuko enters his vacational house as a way to escape the present. He looks at the house looking for comfort in the nostalgia, searching for those moments of happiness in his childhood. Azula knows this, maybe because she felt the same way. That's when she looks for Zuko there and when she sees him, she tries to get him out of that depression bubble of nostalgic feelings by inviting him to join them at the fireplace. Then when Zuko opens to them, saying that all he wanted was to be accepted by his father in order to feel happiness and that he's finally got it, Azula smiles. This may not say much but I always thought of it as Azula being happy for Zuko. But when Zuko says he's actually not happy that he's angry and that he doesn't know why, Azula tries to reach to him, asking who is he angry at. Along with the others they try to get there and then Azula asks concerned if he's angry at her. This question may be simple, but it really helped Zuko's evolution during the series. Because at that point he finally realizes that he's angry at himself for betraying Iroh, he sees that he can't distinguish between Good and Evil. But then Azula strikes with a coment saying that he's pathetic, you may think this is because she was making fun of him or something. But it is more deep than that, it shows the spectators how differently they were both raised. Zuko being raised by her mother's morals and his uncle's advices and trying to fit in Ozai's way. While Azula was raised by Ozai, as a weapon who only needed two things power and manipulation. And now I'll talk about the comics, in The Search. When Azula finds a letter written by Ursa saying that Zuko's not Ozai's son. She keeps it for her, but when Zuko finds out Azula says that it is perfect. Because now they both get what they wanted. And when she's having her schizophrenic thing and sees her mother she acts concerned saying that her mother is trying to manipulate the both of them.

@@JessySB-X I think they do actually care about each other (surprisingly it's a lot easier to find canon evidence for that with Azula) but they have no reference on how a healthy sibling relationship works. It's just a foreign concept to them.

jesus man

@@monkfruit i know but this is honestly how i feel about the energy bending thing and Azula is defined by her bending so removing it would be very traumatic to her and she is less grounded than Ozai so her reaction would be more violent

@@monkfruit and this is just how i would make the rough draft the arc themself would the toned down

True so far as her story goes canonically speaking. Azulas story so far is in limbo, without proper conclusion. Comics cover only first 3 years of 70 year gap between avatar and korra. A lot can change and perhaps Azula with time will also make amends. There are great fanfics which I read which show how Azula can be redeemed and find hapiness. I must say some of the fanfics are even better than canon stories. 😃

In order for Iroh to experience that change though, he had to lose his son

@@somerandomnon-importantper3219 True, though he spared the dragons and covered up their continued existence before Zuko was born (ergo before the death of his son) which seems to be a seed of it that existed already

@@matityaloran9157 The difference between Iroh's and Azula's story is that Iroh is introduced to us as a very kind and just character and we only learn later on that he had a dark past. Azula is introduced to us as a villain and she remains a villain until the very end of the story. But Azula is 14 years old for the entire duration of the show. Iroh was clearly already an adult during the siege on Ba Sing Se. How long did it take for him to turn after his son's death? I doubt it was instant, things like that take time. More time then we get to observe Azula at all. So I think it's really unfair to compare them like that

@@somerandomnon-importantper3219 I agree. A better point of comparison would be Prince Zuko. That said, Monkfruit used that comparison so I responded to it.

you make a lot of very fair points! I definitely agree that if you treat Azula more like an adult than you would treat a 14-year-old in real life then she probably doesn't deserve redemption. and it's definitely hard to interpret more of the way Ursa, Iroh, and Ozai raised Azula and Zuko without considering the comics. Thank you for the thoughtful engagement and upvote regardless! I'm running out of videos for you to dissect now haha the only one you haven't checked out is the Katara one :)

yeah definitely agree. Zuko took basically the entire second half of season 3 and he's not as bad as Azula, she'd probably require even more than that

Does she really deserve that? Is it really her fault if she was raised that way, as a weapon to her nation? If she didn't know what was right or wrong? Iroh was raised the same way as Azula, he was known as General Iroh and literally tried to conquer Ba Sing Se, probably killed lots of people during the process and he made jokes about burning everything. Only when he lost it all, when his own son dies, he finally figures out that what he's doing is wrong and this was him at his 40s or 50s while Azula is just 14. I'm not saying they did good, but even the series implies how firenation citizens were raised, there was a whole episode dedicated to that. Even Zuko, who was raised by Ursa's and Iroh's morals, had to struggle seeing what was good and wrong.

woah what an interesting way to look at it!! that is definitely a radically different interpretation of Iroh's gift than what I'd originally thought haha

@Monkfruit Yeah, I can also see the symbolisms. But the issue I have is that it does not answer or reflect on Iroh's character really well. Looking at the show, I noticed an issue with Iroh, specifically his backstory. In the earlier seasons, Iroh's past centred around his time as a general, which, while I won't go and comment his actions, check my other comment for that. He is clearly absorbed into the Fire Nations propaganda and shows utter glee when committing his conquest of the Earth Kingdom. Then, after his son's death, he went into hiding, apparently found the spirit world, and found his new purpose in life to help maintain the balance of the nation's from which he returns to the Fire Nation for 3 years (I assume because in flashbacks Zuko looks 9 when Iroh was at war and then 12 when banished, also it is said that Zuko is 17 in the show and that he and Iroh spent 5 years in banishment) which is well and good. However, it is also revealed that Iroh also lied about slaying the dragons, Ran and Shaw, which is how he got his title of "Dragon Of The West," and apparently had been apart of the White Lotus, the secret organisation against the Fire Nations conquest while also being it's GRAND LOTUS!! Now, it's clear why this is an issue from the outset because it completely contridicts his earlier backstory as once being a bloodthirsty general that was credited his title (Dragon Of The West) for being able to breathe fire out his mouth (Iroh: "allow me to give a demonstration") and then went into reflection of his wrongdoings of supporting the Fire Nation. The show doesn't really pinpoint the exact order of events of Iroh's life, but it is heavily assumed to be after his time as general. This is still an issue as it cramps all these significant character events in such a short period, for as it goes, 1. Iroh went home after the seige, 2. Iroh went away after Azulon's funeral and gave up the crown, 3. Iroh somehow either ran into the dragons, spirit world, or the White Lotus from which he was either admittedly accepted or not and had to build their trust for him from which he could have shown them he changed either from himself or after visiting the spirit world, not sure. 4. Iroh would become a Grand Lotus. Whether this was in the short-term or not is apparent. 5. Iroh would have personally met with other Lotuses and took time to understand their culture. This is confusing with the Water Tribe, as Pakku, one of the lotuses, is clearly hateful of the Fire Nation but had to personally be acquitted with Iroh, who apparently travelled to the North Pole to be able to understand the nature of Waterbending and the Water Spirits Tui and La. This is even more confusing with Bumi, as he should clearly know that Iroh before then had personally been leading the war effort against the Earth Kingdom and its people who largely suffered and could had connections to know that Iroh could had partook in other tragedies such as the Sourthen Benders genocide. This is meant to have happened whether BEFORE or DURING Iroh's 3 years in the Fire Nation before Zuko is banished. I'm not shaming on the writers, but it clearly is a mistake that I'm surprised no one is aware of. 🤔

fair! curious, what do you think about Iroh then? He also wanted to burn the earth kingdom to the ground when he was younger

@@monkfruit He was a general during the war and wanted to take Ba Sing Se because he had a vision of himself doing so at one point. I feel like those two things are different, plus it still took him years to "snap out of it."

@@6thgraderfriends still Azula can still redeem herself. I mean genocide was prevented and Azula was torn from this path. Post show comics do show that both Zuko and Aang want to give Azula second chance. Sozin cannot come back because he actually committed genocide Zhao cannot come back because he killed moon spirit. Maybe down the line Azula will come to regret her actions.

It was actually because she felt guilty about Ozai treating Zuko that way and spent more time with Zuko. Leading Azula to seeking Ozai's, something she didnt get, being raised by his ways. While when she tried to get Ursa's attention she did bad things like burning flowers because the only attention she got was when she did bad. This a common situation in kids who are neglected by their parents, they do bad things because that way they'll be acknowledged but by their bad actions. Ursa did love Azula, yet she didn't express those feelings towards or she didn't make Azula feel loved

Her father didnt abuve manipulate or brain wash her. Nor did he keep her from ursa. People continue to make this narrative that azula was made into a monster by her father but psychopathy is something you’re born with and she clearly had that off rip considering her sadistic tendencies even when she was nine. Ursa only gave zuko more attention because ozai basically had it out for him since he was born. Yes azulas nature wouldnt be as bad if ozai hadn’t allowed it to grow but giving him full credit is just wrong. People should just accept that azula is messed up in general. Also there is nothing to suggest ozai manipulates her or that he abuses her

Azulas story is in limbo so far. Zuko in the comics has shown that he cares for her. And Azula deep down knows it. So there might be hope for Azula. Zuko and Ursa definitely want to help her. Given the gap when we see Azula last and Korra who knows maybe at some point the series of events get together and Azula will change. I did read fanfics where Azula does get redeemed. Done very well.

Wow, relax dude, she's just a 14 year old girl. I'm not saying her age justifies her actions, but it is well known that a brain doesn't fully develop until the age of 21. But it still doesn't justify it and I know it, but I think it's more about perspectives. During the series there are a lots of examples of how firenation citizens are raised, they think their nation is the greatest and that they should expand to the whole world to spread their culture (Basically any country during the colonialism period). There's a whole episode dedicated to it, not justifying the Fire Nation but explaining how did that happen. Azula is just one of those examples along with Iroh or Zuko, but between Azula and Zuko there's a big difference. While Iroh is a parallel to Azula. When Iroh was in his 40s or 50s he used to be a general, with the basically being the same way raised as Azula. Like a weapon to their country, Iroh also tried to conquer Ba Sing Se, probably murdering people in his way. He even made jokes about burning everything to the ground. But only when he lost it all he finally realizes what was wrong. Here we are talking about a fully grown-up man, Iroh. The same Moral compass that leads Zuko to the good way. Then there's Zuko, who is raised by Ursa's and Iroh's morals while trying to fit in Ozai's way and he still has to struggle between what is good and what is bad.