There really is no debate with Candlemass. If there is a genre they belong to, it is the Doom genre.

As soon as he says Candlemass aren't a doom band, you've lost me on this one.

Any debate on a doom list that removes Candlemass and Solitude Aeturnus is a joke.

Why was Candlemass even debated about. Candlemass is doom.

This badly needs to be redone. Just for starters Candlemass aren't just Doom Metal, they're one of the DEFINITIVE Doom Metal bands, and not because of the title of their first album.

Taking Candlemass off a Doom list because they didn’t always play slow is like taking Metallica off a Thrash list because they didn’t always play fast... Suddenly it’s a lot thinner.

Candlemass is one of the most consistently doom bands around.

Candlemass are THE godfathers of Doom Metal.....with the heaviest Doom riffs on earth! What the hell are they thinking to take Candlemass out?! It's like putting Iron Maiden out of the NWOBHM list. It's ridiculous!

There should be no debate about Candlemass or Solitude Aeturnus. Nick has a strange definition of doom metal and should not have been allowed so much influence on this list.

Why would they even DEBATE Candlemass though? I mean common they are quintessential doom metal

I was enjoying this debate until the Cathedral fan boy came in and said that Candlemass don't belong on this list. Their first album is an ESSENTIAL Doom Metal LP!

Doom metal does not mean that every song on every album is a complete dirge! It means that sound is dominantly woven throughout their sound.

"Candlemass is not doom metal" is such a bad take I can't even find the right words to express how it makes me feel

Wtf put Candlemass back. The tempo of some of their songs are faster than Traditional, but the overall tempo of most of their songs is not fast enough to be consider anything other than Doom Metal.

Removing Candlemass from the list makes this episode worthless. I don't care about the lists on Lock Horns generally as it is entertainment and the shows are great fun but omitting Candlemass renders the debate pointless.

A bunch of hipsters who know absolutely nothing about true metal take out THE definitive doom metal band, Candlemass, out of the doom category. Clowns.

Where is Saint Vitus and Pagan Altar?

CANDLEMASS ARE THE FUCKING DOOMEST BAND EVER. Nobody has consistently represented the genre, from lyrical topics, vocal style, and YES, SPEED AND RIFFS. EPICUS DOOMUS METALLICUS. A classic shirt that says DOOM on the back. Also, Thergothon, fuckers.

Candlemass are doom, always were. Jesus.

Black Sabbath and Pentagram must be on top of that freaking list

One factor they left out that lead to the omission of Candlemass from the list is the level of contribution to the sub-genre. If that outweighs the lack of consistency in their body of work, it should still be considered Doom. Candlemass contributed to the attitude, the sound, the look, and arguably the name of the genre (the first fruits coming from Sabbath's Hand of Doom notwithstanding). They were in the top 3 of most contributions to the sub-genre, and should not be flushed out so easily. Furthermore, if the existence of faster songs in their library is enough to expel them from the genre, then Saint Vitus and Witchfinder General should be left out. They were much closer to the fast New Wave of British Heavy Metal sub-genre.

Candlemass was called doom in the 80s i known because I was there.

You guys know nothing of doom metal. There is a question about "is Candlemass doom metal?" Are you kidding me?

Where is Pentagram?

please take kyuss off of that list

That dude thinks doom comes from Death Metal. In that I agree he's an idiot. Death evolved from Thrash Metal, which stole it's very essence from Hardcore Punk and Crust. Doom has little roots to punk... not until the Sleep, Neurosis, Melvins era. True Doom is one of the only PURELY metal genres. Most other extreme sub-genres of metal are linked to other non-metal genres like punk.

I'm starting to have issues with genres being so airtight that there's no room for maneuver. If something is "mostly" a thing, then it's still that thing. (Candlemass should stay.)

Removing Candlemass left them in the dark.

wtf how is Solitude aeturnus not doom?

Saint Vitus?

Saint Vitus, Pentagram, Goatsnake

I'm not even a fan of candlemass, but saying it's not doom is just rubbish

Random observations: Doom Metal first and foremost needs to elicit a foreboding sense of dread and DOOM. That's what it means. Without that crucial element, it's just another form of metal. I was born in the late '60s, in the '70s my older sister turned me on to Black Sabbath, then as a teenager in the '80s I scored Pentagram, Saint Vitus, Trouble and Candlemass records ...and all sans any word of mouth - remember, even the metal magazines of that era didn't provide much coverage to doom bands. Speed/black/thrash was the order of the day. Sabbath's material contained a lot of pro-Christianity lyrics/themes, often by way of using the devil as the boogeyman, coupled with themes of psychotic, dictatorial govts, and their brainwashed societies, that would ultimately ensure doom and annihilation. And these spiritual, philosophical and sociopolitical warnings and themes were likewise carried on by the initial doom bands of the '80s. Vitus was the first band to be an openly self-proclaimed Christian metal band. I could ramble on about numerous bands that get cast as doom that I don't think are, but what's the point. Again, it goes back to the intent to establish a feeling a dread and doom. Without that specific aspect in mind, it's just run of the mill metal, even if the notes are played slowly--in and of itself, that's not enough, as there are many slow metal bands whose material never strikes me as being particularly ominous or doomy sounding. Something else, back in the day, stoner/doom was synonymous because doom fans were generally potheads (I was and remain so to this day). It wasn't until a decade later that the death/black metal kids brought those elements into doom, creating a new hybrid...of which there are now many. However, the '90s also brought us the mighty Sleep, Revelation, The first Cathedral record, Count Raven, Electric Wizard (their crucifixes weren't originally inverted) Solitude Aeturnus, Burning Witch, Las Cruces, and Wino's The Obsessed/Spirit Caravan. The next wave in the '00s gave us many more---Place Of Skulls, Ocean Chief, WitchSorrow, Reverend Bizarre (so good!) and a subsequent deluge of excellent Finnish doom bands; Spiritus Mortis, The Wandering Midget, Lord Vicar, Caskets Open, etc

Candlemass is doom metal , always has been

Candlemass simply created the sub genre when they released THE doom album back in 1986 (Epicus Doomicus Metallicus). Picking the slowest and gloomiest aspects of Sabbaths catalogue (Black Sabbath, Electric Funeral, Snowblind, A National Acrobat) slowing it down a bit more and adding a sense of hopelessness and perdition (thus the label "doom") to it. I understand that Marcolin's years have a bit of traditional heavy metal to it, but Candlemass's debut (absolute masterpiece), Dactylis Glomerata, From the 13th Sun, King Of The Grey Islands and Death Magic Doom are EVERYTHING Doom is about. I'm aware of the subjective nature of labels... but there are limits. And leaving Candlemass out of THE TOP of this board is like leaving Death outside of Death Metal because their earliest albums are too thrashy and the latest too prog/jazzy, Leaving Mothorhead out when talking about pivotal metal bands because they have too much punk elements, Leaving Helloween outside of the Power Metal board by saying that they're too much influenced by traditional heavy metal bands like Priest and Maiden. In a word: Nonsense.

In what fucking world are Candlemass and Solitude Aeturnus not Doom? What a joke.

That blonde dude coming in at about 20 minutes destroyed this show for me! Candlemass isn’t Doom? He first heard the name Doom Metal when Cathedral came around (he also said Lee kept his Death style vocals in Cathedral???)? And then bringing Godflesh in (instead of Candlemass!!!)???? Holy shit, this dude got so much wrong in such a small amount of time it’s unbelievable!! This could have been an interesting show, but when he decided to walk in (besides not being an official guest) the whole thing fell apart in just a few minutes, sorry!

Gaah this was frustrating to watch. Of COURSE Doom comes directly and specifically from Black Sabbath, as the very blueprint of everything that is Doom comes from songs such as Black Sabbath (big one right here), Hand of DOOM, Into the Void, Electric Funeral, Sweat Leaf, National Acrobat and Corncunopia!!! Slow, low and heavy!!! That being said, mid-paced chuggy riffs are allowed in Doom too, in doses (Under the Sun, for example). Sure, no Sabbath album other than 13 has 100% only Doom songs but that's not really the point. No Sabbath album has 100% only Heavy Metal songs either. Almost EVERY Doom metal band will drop to their knees in far heavier worship to the word and influence of Sabbath than a Traditional heavy metal or thrash metal band would. Bassicly(/NIB), You can influence two similar genres at the same time... Doom is the slow, mopier child of Sabbath, born from the songs previously mentioned, where as Traditional heavy metal is born from the upbeat songs such as Paranoid, Hole in the Sky and Children of the Grave. Both Doom and Traditional Heavy Metal stem from Sabbath, where the other metal genres find a precursor in the children of those two genres (Power metal obviously comes from Traditional metal like Priest where as Sludge comes from Doom. To say Sabbath invented Power and Sludge however backtracks too far and loses key elements that these newer bands and genres establish uniquely to themselves). Just because Candlemass have an upbeat song or two per album does not qualify their blatant existence in the Doom genre, where they blatantly belong! Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride are Gothic Doom, which does have Death metal elements, but is far more on the Doom side of things, and not to mention both bands have reduced their death metal influences substantially over time while continuing to influence other bands. But I agree leaving them under Death or Gothic Doom is a safer answer. Type O Negative are also VERY doomy, generally described as if Sabbath met Gothic Rock and The beatles... in the 90s. So again, safer in gothic Doom, I suppose. Only Gothic, Death and Funeral Doom use growled vocals, and they all post-date Sabbath, Pentagram, Trouble and Vitus, so no Doom does NOT have a death metal origin. Cathedral have always used clean vocals. Bizarre vocals, but clean none the less. Just because Lee Dorian was in Napalm Death does not make Cathedral a particularly death metal influenced band... Corrossion of Conformity do actually fit under Stoner and Sludge metal for their 90s material (they added stoner and doom elements to their Crossover/hardcore material, which is basically the recipe for Sludge metal). Also Black Flag's My War does contain quite a few Sludge influences and is mentioned as one of The Melvins main influences from the sludge perspective, but I admit is still a little primordial. Yes, Doom metal is a genre that has come to being in hindsight of the last decade or so, but it does share definable traits. Reverend Bizarre are fucking amazing. Thank you for your time.

The main difference is stoner metal is usually not depressing.

Can you guys please redo this episode without the clueless intruder? There should be a restraining order that Nick can't set foot in the studio on any live show. He dumped a giant turd on one of the best genres in metal.

Your "Doom Expert" doesn't know the name of the album Dopethrone? GTFO - complete fail.

When I think of doom, Candlemass ALWAYS comes to mind. Hell, one of their last full-lengths is called Death Magic DOOM. This is amazing that this guy thinks they aren't doom.

What the fuck!?! Why is Solitude Aeturnus and Candlemass not a shoe in? No more smoking blunts before you come on a show. Pallbearer should definitely be added. They are totally legit. Solitude Aeturnus released several albums and all of them are legit doom metal. I agree that Cathedral deserve major props for being doom innovators.

Wow what a debacle, just like the Stoner/Sludge episode. The Doom, Sludge and Stoner genres really deserve redo episodes.

Dude from Biblical (??) said Candlemass arn't DOOM because they didn't call it that at the time... DUDE their first album is named "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus". Are you fucking serious? So what if it didn't become a genre title for a bit, if ANYTHING they helped to give the genre that exact name. You guys really need to come back to this and fix it hahaha PUT CANDLEMASS BACK! This is serious stuff guys, COME ON!

Right off the bat, I need Saint Vitus, Pentagram, and Pagan Altar on this list. Saint Vitus probably doesn't need explanation as Born Too Late is an undisputed classic. Terrifyingly sad, slow, heavier than a Sumo wrestler on a carnitas spree. Pentagram seems to me a major factor in the rebirth of doom, has that American Sabbath vibe in the 70s and then full on metallic doom in the 80s. Pagan Altar probably fits into NWOBHM but they are just so different than Maiden, for example. Occult, heavy as f**k, reflections on existence and meaninglessness. Doom, period. I also think Sludge should be added as a sub-genre.

There is no debate: candlemass is doom :)

When I think of Doom metal, Candlemass is at the top of that list.

Candlemass are doom. This guy saying that in the 80's there was no doom metal genre is wrong. I remember seeing the term used to describe Candlemass' sound in the metal press in 1988. Cirith Ungol should be on that list as well.

What about Pagan Altar! How did Candlemass get taken out? Similar to black metal, doom can have two waves. Also the metalcore video clearly showed two waves with Hatebreed early and As I Lay Dying types being second wave. Master of Reality/Pagan Altar/Witchfinder General/Candlemass/St. Vitus/Pentagram is first wave doom and Cathedral spawned bands is second wave doom. Accept all waves of the styles!

Celtic Frost isn't pronounced Seltic, it's pronounced Keltic.

Taking Candlemass out of Doom is just wrong. Do not factor what they called themself at the time. No genre had its title with its father bands. If you take out pre-Cathedral just because the first time you heard the name was relating to Cathedral, then go and rebuild your entire family tree and take out Black Sabbath. Black Sabbath NEVER referred to themself as Heavy Metal. The first self-identifier was Judas Priest. So you cannot argue like that. I think the major criteria for Doom is atmosphere. The lower and slower grinding riffs create a DOOM atmosphere, a sense of dread and despair, and that is key. Candlemass has that atmosphere. I don't care what else you do, sub genres, inclusions, etc, but put Candlemass back.

Pagan Altar,The Obsessed,Count Raven,Reverend Bizarre,Type o Negative and My Dying Bride(because they were death/doom only on 3 records) are all missing,and yes, CANDLEMASS AND SOLITUDE AETURNUS ARE DOOM METAL!!! A lot of disrespect for the genre, since only 8 bands made the cut...

Reverend Bizarre definitely. They played a huge part in the doom revival, playing totally into that whole St. Vitus/Candlemass vein. And yeah, Candlemass should be on doom.

Imagine having to listen to that dude that barged in saying that doom is from the 90s. Absolutely ridiculous! If you are new to doom don't watch this video! Just listen to 80s albums from Pentagram, Saint Vitus, Candlemass, Witchfinder General, Trouble, and Pagan Altar to start!

And for the love of God Electric Wizard is DOOM!

candlemass not doom...lol so slayer not thrash ok

They didn't mentioned Count Raven & The Obssesed.

Electric Wizard is more like Stoner Doom

imagine not making a print for SLEEP

Candlemass should be on top!!!! They are the godfather of Doom!!

What's the deal here with Sam not wanting to put Saint Vitus as Doom. I saw him do his on the Stoner Lock Horns segment? Saint Vitus is quintessential Doom along with Pentagram. ANd the guy who popped in on this segment is horribly out of touch in saying that Cathedral is first or whatever he implied. Candlemass is total DOOM! This segment like the stoner rock segment is just all wrong.

I think I’ve watched every lock horns episode, and this is *hands down* the best and most hilarious, as well as informative. That guy who barges in is totally wrong about everything (except about the importance of cathedral) but hilarious. John is obviously a pro.

I got to say, I love this channel, but this is one of the most infuriating videos I've seen on the channel

I've watched the Stoner/Sludge debate, as well as this one now, and I have to interject my personal opinion on what makes each genre different from each other (as succinctly as I can). I think the hard part about dissecting these genre's is that too many people get hung up on the tempo. Stoner metal has no fear when talking about stuff like women and cars (1000Mods, etc) which is something Doom metal wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, not to mention, Stoner metal can easily get in the faster lane of mid-tempo riffs and it still retains it's heaviness. Stoner metal will also incorporate more positive views with things like psychedelics and the like while Doom is certainly more focused on negative energy. Doom is typically more grounded in a more poetic style of storytelling, lots of minor key elements and a more grim viewpoint lyrically. Sludge, although it shares the same slowness as the previous two genres is so clearly related to hardcore and punk that I literally don't see how people compare them to Stoner/Doom. I also must add that the fellow who said that Death vocals are paramount to Doom.. there's just no way that part has to be a criteria. Death/Doom is certainly a thing but there is such a clear distinction in that sound that I honestly don't know how he came to that thought.

Candlemass not Doom - wtf????

I was enjoying this a lot until the "crasher" showed up and pissed all over the very foundation of traditional doom. Apples and oranges I guess.

Swallow the Sun are pretty consistently death/doom, and easily one of the best I've heard in the style. They just put out a triple album that experiments with some acoustic stuff and some funeral doom, but at their core they've always been a fusion of doom with Swedish melodeath. They deserve a spot in the death/doom part of the tree possibly more than Katatonia, Anathema, Amorphis, and other bands that might have started out in death/doom before evolving into something completely different (not to say I don't absolutely love where each of those three bands have gone since).

Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus=classic doom My Dying Bride=Death/doom Catacombs, Ahab=funeral doom

- Sam for the love of metal music you gotta redo this episode. Having Candlemass in ??? category is beyond ignorant. Nick Sewell and this episode are legendary fails on every music app/blog/discussion board I go to. Hell just delete it or use it as a blooper reel. I am not exaggerating about everyone making fun of it. Just look at the comments below. - Otherwise I enjoy all your documentaries, interviews, and podcasts. Keep up the good work. \m/

Candlemass should be there, they've been seminal for a small army of epic doom bands. You'd have to dive into old reviews to be sure but I remember them as being doom metal back in the day too. Cathedral has been influential in pimping all those forgotten bands in their thankslist and later the reissues, something worth mentioning. Anathema, Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride totally laid it down for death/doom and at least on them should be in there if you want to stay in one branch (my prefrence), back in the day nobody thought of them as gothic (as far as I remember), that was totally different genre. Death/doom has been important for funeral doom.

In what world are Candlemass and Trouble not Doom? In what world does that Biblical live in? They're one of the essential Doom Metal bands. It's not even debatable. Godflesh are Doom? Don't invite this guy ever again! This guy John Semley, on the other hand, is more knowledgeable.

Pagan Altar anybody?????

I hope that guy who walked in never appears again. If he do I will unsubscribe

Solitude Aeturnas is in my opinion no doubt Doom. My personal favorite

Candlemass not doom... Hmmm, must be nu metal since it wasn't made in the 70s.

And while My Dying Bride has numerous gothic elements, the sound they play most is doom metal.

Black Sabbath above everything - that's sound about right! :)

Doom to me will always be Candlemass, Cathedral, My Dying Bride and Anathema

Disembowelment has the best album. Trancendence into the pheripheral

Was a big Solitude Aeturnus fan in high school (loved Candlemass and Cathedral as well)

I'd say Warning (UK) instead of Pallbearer. When I heard Pallbearer the first time I thought "Well, this is just Warning but without the emotional depth of Patrick Walkers singing". The Strength To Dream and Watching From A Distance are both amazing albums with immense emotional depth.

This one really needs to be reworked. Candlemass IS definitely Doom Metal also coined a Sub-Subgenre(Epic Doom Metal) hence their "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus" debut. WTF is with that gatecrasher dude? The one who commented about him being an 'IDIOT' proves to be true. Also Death SS, Pagan Altar and Cirith Ungol are other important early bands that was not even discussed but needs to be on that list.

Type-O negative is not doom but Cathedral absolutely is

Doom metal historically has clean vocals, Johnny-come-lately is way off base

Without Pentagram list is incomplete!!!

Type O Ngeative clearly had gothic and psychedelic influences in their music, but I am struggling to think of a more important doom metal band in the last 25 years.

Guys, ya kinda dropped the ball with Candlemass there.

kYUSS is doom? No way

Subgenres Traditional Doom Epic Doom Stoner metal Sludge metal Death/doom Funeral Doom Goth/doom Drone metal Black/doom

and death doom needs tiamat, triptykon, anathema (early), katatonia (early), and swallow the sun apart from the obvious my dying bride and paradise lost.

Where is MF Doom?

@ 20:59 "Has anyone shot down this theory that Cathedral started doom and nothing is doom before Cathedral" - the moderator missed the boat literally everyone shot down that moronic theory!!! I died laughing when Sam Dunn asked the guy from Biblical if he owned stock in Cathedral. I guess he had to be nice to the guy since it was his friend. I translated that to tell the guy to shut the hell up.

PENTAGRAM

Bell Witch is DOOM

Ummmm....... "Into the Depths of Sorrow" by Solitude Aeturnus, released in 1991, is ESSENTIAL doom. And Nick's suggestion to remove Candlemass.... ludicrous! St Vitus shouldla been up there from the jump, too. Pull it together, guys.

Canadians saying "selltic frost" get the hell outta here

This is such a complex genre. There could/should be an entire episode on sludge, death doom, stoner metal, drone metal, and when Sludge is eventually discussed: THOU!!!!

This talk is giving me anxiety! Candlemass is DOOM!!! Solitude should stay! But Reverend Bizarre must freaking be there!!!! Also, Pallbearer is the shit! And we need Death/Doom (with funeral doom) which include Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, Katatonia, Unholy, Theregethon, Skepticism, Shape of Despair.

Well, that was definitely some kind of disaster. I wonder how Candlemass not belong to doom metal just because they have some songs that are not slow? The same applies to Trouble and Pentagram, for example, but that doesn't exclude them from doom metal. I also love Cathedral, but Nick Sewel seems to be too obsessed with them. And with the removal of My Dying Bride and Paradise Lost it now seems that doom metal tree is limited only to the US scene, which is not really the case. And, finally, funeral doom metal has grown throughout the years into a really big metal sub-genre with many important and influential bands, such as Skepticism, Monolithe, Pantheist, Ahab etc.