I think the tuner was very efficient in transferring money from the rifle owner to the tuner seller. It doesn't show in the groups, but it's very evident between the lines. Nice machining work on the barrel: that (the machining) looks like it was worth the money.

Wow I am glad I listened to you guys for my Full rifle build that you are doing for me, Rim x and not getting a tuner just you building with the best possible components and your workmanship. 😊

Holy shit. Why would anyone want to tune a rifle that shot that well previously. Madness.

Great information as always. I have a rifle on order from you and you already answered the question I was going to ask. Thank you so much for taking your time from your busy schedule to keep us informed. I just love your videos.

Really appreciate you taking the time to test and share your results… Still saving my $$$ to order a rifle from you!

thank you for your honest reviews

Great info.. this has been my experience with tuners as well! I can guarantee my next rimfire barrel won't have muzzle threads ;)

Great work Kenny thanks for sharing!

Quality barrel and quality ammo is a very good start!

Thanks for that content. Helped me a lot!

Great video thanks for all the information 👍

Kinda what I was thinking , Kenny. You’re the first guy to do a before tuner , after tuner, and tuner repeatability. Maybe for a benchrest shooter who has loads of select lots that shoot well with the barrel , a tuner might give an edge . But I’d still think you’d want to stay away from turning down a barrel to accommodate the tuner . I’d think a potentially more effective effort might be to size the tuner to the barrel diameter . Once a guy like you builds a rifle that shoots freaking awesome , I’d want the option to go back to ground zero if the tuner did not work out .

I just installed a Harrells tuner/brake on my Rem. 700 223 20" barrel and after adjusting the tuner 14 times I got 3/8" groups compared to the 5/8" groups I got with just a brake on it. My barrel is .860 dia. shot @ 100 yds. sirerra MK 69 gr. @ 2800 fps. Now I have changed a factory barrel into a precision barrel for $145.00 CDN. A Bartlein barrel and milling costs would have cost about $1500.00 CDN. I've shot it 3 times now without adjusting the tuner/brake and it appears to be holding plus the weather has been the same. Personally I think this is where a tuner/brake really shines. Today shot again and adjusted the tuner to other settings and then back to the best setting and again 3/8" groups. By the way the Sierra 69gr. I shoot the barrel loves them and I have shot over 2k rounds in the last year with about 6 other makes of bullets so you're right about having ammo the barrel likes first.

i done the same thing on my factory bergara barrel and had the same results was not repeatable at all and it was tested ammo that my gun loved good job Kenny

Great vid/content. I was thinking about putting one on my rimfire but don't think I will for several reasons. I will say I believe the EC tuner/brake helps on a centerfire gas gun. I've had good repeatable results with mine with handloads. (Didn't worry about it with factory ammo and factory brake. It all worked good together. Complete aero precision 6 ARC upper with 24" .936 barrel.)

I am setting up a B14R stock rifle just as a training rifle. Not shooting competition . But still like to be as accurate as I can. You gave me some food for thought. Ammunition testing first. Then invest in a tuner. Thanks

Is exactly what I was looking for this info is very helpful thanks

I gave James Pappas permission to use the VibeSlide tuner I designed back in the '90s/'00s. Or at least during the whole Calfee 'parallel node' benchrest craze years. Afterwards his daughter retained that permission. It was a higher moment of inertia design to more positively control muzzle harmonics.

Great info and video, Thanks.

Browning I beleive invented these tuners with their Boss system. I have a couple of rifles with the boss system installed one just turns the dial on the Boss system to adjust barrel harmonics for specific ammo. They discovered the idea when they found that frequently just trimming a small piece of barrel off cured inaccurate rifles by changing the barrel harmonics to put the wave node at the tip of the barrel.

Good stuff Kenny!

Great info!

Likely very difficult to tune a thick barrel riffle like my MTR. However, it was really easy to tune my Proof Research Carbon Fiber CZ 457

Nice rifle I would say without the tuner because the other rifle it’s shooting great without it thanks for sharing

I have a cheap Ruger Precision Rimfire with the same tuner and half by 28. It makes a difference on my rifle. Shot 3/4 moa this weekend with Norma match. That thick barrel probably doesn’t need it.

I put either shaft collars or hub collars on my barrels and tune (or attempt to) with them to see if any gain is achieved. Sporter barrels just get LIMBSAVER deresonators. And if I'm being honest I've left it on my bull barrel (.850", 13/16") Marlin 882SSV .22WMR. Not a competition rifle of course but in my case the hub collar did make it a better squirrel gun with the ammo I'm using now, by a noticeable (1/4") margin. 87.4 yd MPBR for 1" target. It is time consuming using calipers to set movement of collar but I've still got that $200+ to buy more ammo.

With that thick of a barrel and 22LR, I knew the EC Tuner wasn't going to do anything. You have to talk to your barrel and let it know you sent one downrange, because it didn't feel a thing.

Superb video Man am I learning it's simply an inescapable fact that it's a WHOLE lot harder to get a 22lr rifle to consistently shoot with BOTH accuracy AND precision VS my centerfire rifles Example is my newest CF rifle made by Bergara for CVA Cascade in 450 Bushmaster During load development for thatbrifle I fired 40 rounds using 8 different charge weights of Hodgson Lil'Gun and all 8 five shot groups if laid on atop the other formed a group aggregate of under 1.5" with no unacceptable degree of vertical stringing And that's at 100yrds not 50 utterly not possible to do that out of my B14R with 2 or 3 different ammo types let alone 8 Spoke to guys at my rifle club who compete in F-Class and BR using 100% custom rifles costing thousands of dollars and every one say shooting 22lr for extreme precision and accuracy is much MUCH harder than CF rifle I agree 100%

I am a Vibration Analyst and will give the short version of some explanation. The bigger more rigid barrels would require a heavier tuner in order to change the natural frequency of the barrel enough to positively affect barrel harmonics.

Thanks for this video. I've been on the fence for a while, regarding a tuner for my B14R; I suspected they are snake oil. It sounds like the better investment would be a straight contour barrel, rather than a tuner.

thanks! your videos are always super informative. I'm confused with this one though, first it seemed like these weren't all that helpful since you couldn't get good repeatability but at the end you said these are helpful. Just an 'average' shooter here so either way I'm pretty sure I don't need one. Just interesting learning about this stuff.

Man I really job you know what going on nice job

Good stuff brother. Echo

Nice Hat Man!!🔥🔥🔥

I have tuned my Proof Research Carbon Fiber so good that it will produce a tight group no matter what ammo I put in it. It's a matter of making the barrel so quiet for broad frequency range that match the various ammo velocities.

That is why the Harrels tuner is better as it is machined to the finished diameter of the barrel and the barrel is not machined. You measure the OD of your barrel and order the tuner to fit that dimension. No threading at all.

With a previous lot of SK Pistol Match Special, my Bergara B14r shot lights out with my EC V2 tuner set at zero. A new lot of SK PMS was giving me one or two fliers per box. Over five matches shooting two IBS targets - 50 bulls - I dropped 14 points or 2.8 points average per match. I finally tested tuner settings and in the last match I dropped one point by the thickness of a human hair. I'm sure the lost point was me and not the rifle. I'll know more after additional matches but it seems that the tuner has reduced the fliers. I hope so as I still have quite a bit of the same lot left.

The Hornady podcasts has an episode that explains the need for better statistical 15-30 shot groups to determine actual group size/nodes if any. They do understand that means a lot more ammo being burned up, but statistically unavoidable. Better sample sizes lie less, LOL. Shooting 15-30 shot groups would require shooting farther out so as not to crowd target too much. Now that your farther out, wind is a complication but could be avoided with a shooting tunnel. Being a 22lr only complicates the process for sure. Smaller contour barrels might possibly benefit more from tuners. Tuners are defiantly part of the Black arts! A semi-universal mechanical clamp machine rest would be very useful in determining accuracy potential in built rigs. I don't know what that would look like but an interesting idea for sure.

You’re about the only person I’ve seen that gives the before, during, and after results and I commend you for that. I’d suggest though that you can’t shoot five shot groups and have a group that shoots four touching and one not and say that’s still a tuner setting that needs to be explored. You’re either shooting five shot groups or you aren’t. It’s the nature of dispersion when shooting .22s that you’re going to get groups just like that even without the tuner and with good ammo. I think a lot of people just haven’t sat and shot five-shot group after group after group to see the true dispersion with .22lr. In a match, you don’t get to not count that flier; it’s there. For testing to have any meaning in a practical sense, you’ve got to be applying the same rules to testing that you would to competition.

have you tried threading in reverse, with an inverted tool? Joe Pi does a nice demo, and it eliminates issues with having to fast-stop when running close to a 'ridge's, or real close to the chuck...

Do a thin barrel 22LR. Also unless you put the action on a vice and mechanically pull the trigger user variables.

Kenny,I agree with many of your previous posts about "Myth Busting 22 LR Accuracy" enough to have ordered a Vudoo barreled action from you. I`ve have 3 rifles that will average .3-.4MOA at 50yds,and 20 years of shooting Benchrest club matches at 50 & 100 yards. The E.C. Tuner isn`t heavy enough to have dependable "Tuner " settings with the heavy contour barrels you`re installing I.M.H.O.. I`m also agree with you re: turning down barrels to 1/2x28,to accept common Suppressors,Brakes and yes tuners. All my accurate rifles use "Harrel Brothers" Tuners that are bored out to muzzle diameters,and slip over the muzzle without altering it. The heaviest barrel I have on a 22LR is a .925 straight contour,and the last 2.5" of barrel is 1.020" diameter,like an Anschutz "Super Match". It has a 8.0 oz Harrel Brothers tuner bored out .002-.003over muzzle diameter ,with a shoulder inside that allows it to slip on the same spot over the muzzle. The tuner also has a threaded face on it to allow extra weights to be screwed into it. I`ll e-mail you pictures of the tuner for you to see. I`m hoping you`ll test my barreled action at 100 yards,as that`s where our local matches are won. Please DON`t turn my barrel down at the muzzle .In earlier posts you said you prefer to install 1.100 to 1.200 straight contours,I`d like to have a 1.100 contour to allow the tuner to affect barrel harmonics more than 1.200 dia. Tuners Do Not Fix crummy ammo,crummy shooters,and crummy gunsmithing, but do get the best out of lot variations in good ammo. I`m in Alaska and it`s hard access different lot numbers. Good ammo at further than 50 yards must have single digit S.D.`s or Low teens ( 12-13FPS) or vertical stringing will affect accuracy. I wish Federal was still making UM1 & 900 Match,as it won Olympics for the USA, But corporate take overs lead to executive officers who don`t understand accuracy only accounting,I.E. Remington,Marlin,High Standard ,etc. I digress. You conduct many checks in barreling 22LR actions,and I hope you check my barreled action at 100 yards for a rifle that will hold 1/2" MOA.or less,and I will sing your praises. Personally I do all tuner testing at 100 yards,as you won`t see all the positive & negative effects of the tuner Your understanding of long range 22LR performance is another reason I picked you to build a new rifle. NRL & PRS 22 matches demand maximum performance from ammo manufacturers,and rifles,but carry over to our Benchrest club matches . If there are maximum weight limits use thinner barrel profiles,and lighter tuners. I really like your motto of "Learn Precision Together". Take my input or leave it. We`re always learning,and competition is the place to do it together , Mike

I like the V2 better than V1

Excellent video!! Congratulations. A question, the tuner, what is its weight in ounces? Thank you.

Is it possible the O-ring shifts within its groove when detuning/return to node? That would explain repeatability issue if so.

#GOAT THNX 4 INFO NO TUNER 4 ME ILL SAVE THE CASH 🤔🤔😎😎

I guess at least when there is a temp change, humidity change, air pressure change, you can tweak a little if needed. Of course that's if you have it shooting lights out with a tuner.

Hey Kenny, Glad to see you post this, though I am sure you will be heavily criticized for it. (Good on you anyway) Brain Litz new book Modern Advancements in Long Range shooting he tests over 1800 rounds on 4 different tuner and provides that data to back up his results. He also discusses this chapter on his podcast subscription. Might want to refer folks that are sold on these, to his data before they spend their $$. Not sure what you change to install one of these (none of my business) but the book is less than $50, the entire podcast with all the other content is $10 if you just want to listen. Might be worth the investment for those who want to make decisions based on live fire results. Summary is on page 108. I wonder what the groups looked like if you took it back off? BAR

The tuners aren't meant to be moved back and forth. You find a spot it likes and lock it down. The browning boss system works awesome!

It would have been interesting to see one more group with the tuner set in the same position after it shot the group which threw 2 shots.

Huh...not what I expected. I know this is an old video, but I thought I'd comment. I have a Anschutz 54 action and a win 52 that both run the harrel tuners of varying vintages. The anschutz is .9375" end to end I believe. Can't remember what the 52 is off the top of my head...but I want to say it's close to 1-1/8 or a shade under. I run midas+ or from a lot of center-x (after sending the rifle to Mesa for lot testing). The harrel weighs something like 8oz...and I have an additional 1.5 oz(?) Kit on the winchester. They sit proud of the muzzle quite a bit more then the EC tuner. What does the new EC tuner weigh? I see references to the 'old' model at 4oz. Maybe there's just too much mass in that heavy barrel for it to make much of a difference? I'm not shooting much .22BR anymore...but I am seeing ALOT of tuners in NRL22. I still run suppressed for NRL, but I'll bet ~1/4 of the guys at the last match I made it to (May) were running a tuner of some sort. Thanks for doing this test! I would have bet the farm that even 4oz would have made alot more difference than what you found.

another question; I know powder weight will change tuner performance but will a change in bullet weight also change tuner performance ?

If it shot better before the tuner, I have to wonder how would it shoot with the tuner removed completely?

Seems like you need alot more weight for that tuner to really make a difference to that particular barrel.

So basically groups

Your Codec rang. Could have been the Colonel.

With a truck axle size barrel like that it’s hard to believe that tuner could have a significant difference in harmonics?

How about after removing the tuner. Did it shoot as well as it did before threading the barrel?

Have you tried the same shooting at your 50 yards indoor range? Might produce more consistent results.

Thanks Kenny Great video , I have been thinking about fitting a tuner to my CZ455 fitted with a IBI match barrel but I don’t want to stuff up a rifle that already shoots .4 groups using SK rifle match ammo , the problem is for some crazy reason the first shot of every group is a flyer that blows a .4 group out to .6 - .8 it always the first round of a five shot group , do you think it could be a harmonics issue ot something else I started doubting myself so I did get my buddy to shoot a few groups and he had the same first shot flyers , what do you think any advice would be awesome Thanks again Steve .

Other than trying different brands of ammo and lot testing my honest opinion is the tuner is too light to be effective on a rimfire

Is the shot on the right after setting the EC Tuner? How far did you shoot?

Great video, Kenny!! Question: I am looking next week to buy your Rimx action and barrel only. Do you test such a combo in any way before shipping, as there would be no stock ordered? Robert

I’m sure these tuners works way better with “competition” reloaders, where everything component is sized, weighted, and measured to be the same. .22 ammo isn’t even close to being the same.

In this ammo market, where can you find different lots of the same 22lr ammo? Everyone I’ve asked only have one lot and it disappears fast. Great info.

You will have to make a tuner with some weight to get it to work. That was a very thin piece of metal. It does show that it’s a waste of time if you can’t make your own. I’m not sure a tuner on a NRL gun has a place. If you bump it while shooting it’s going to change. Better to have a clamp on tuner for Benchrest matches if they are wanting to use in both sports. Just have to shoot 40-50 rounds to find the tune again before a Benchrest match. My opinion from using and making them for many years. I think I’ll be making a clamp on for my Bergara.

You should use the same ammo with and with out the tuner

Kenny - what do you think about tuners that don't require threading? Like the Harrell tuner. I'm interested in trying a tuner, but I don't want to thread my barrel.

What is the theoretical mechanism by which this is supposed to do something? Is it all in regards to harmonics? How is the test meaningful when not shooting off a sled?

The 1.20 straight contor 22lr doesn't need a tuner, the stock cz457 or bergaras b14r benefit from the tuner. 0.865 0.900 respectively with both with the 1/2 × 28 adapter. Tune it at 100 yards 3 shot groups. I have both rifles and use the v1 ec tuner. I am thinking of getting the v2. Mine are repeatable as I remove the tuner during cleaning.

Any chance you can try to do the same thing but with rubber bands on the barrel? I have a feeling it will do the same thing.

it was a EC tuner

Thanks for the testing. But the question remains for smaller diameter barrels - are the results repeatable? I'm dubious. Hopefully you get the opportunity to test that out. Maybe when I'm feeling flush with cash and curious I'll grab an EC tuner and try it on my T1x and B14r steel barrel.

God blessed you and your family 🌈🌈

Did you get the feeding fixed on the Vudoo?

Did you sort the ammo for rim thickness? I have seen the it matter with 22lr.

I don't think this barrel runner would work because of too many variables when shooting a 22lr. Ammo temperature humidity and other things that can make a big difference besides that thing is just plain fugly not for me my cz457s shoot really good to begin with most of the time the other times is shooter error.

When it was shooting as well as it did when you sent the client the rifle why did he want to mess with it?

If a rifle shoots .3 or better..why put a rifle tuner? Your rifle didn't need a tuner. How much you want for it? 🙂

not trying to talk bad about Erik Cortina he builds great stuff just did not work for me if you want to i can send it to you so you can try it on a factory bergara

Do you sell custom barrels?

-75 unit sales for Eric Cortina. 🤣

I would think you would only want a tuner as a last resort for an inaccurate barrel.

Was that 100 yards? If it’s 50 there is a serious. problem.

where is your website?

With a monster barrel like the one there, such a light tuner is going to be pretty ineffective. The mass dampening effect is irrelevant. Just my engineering two cents.

Why don’t anybody compare without tuner then tuner.

Lol, you let your son shoot a rim-x? You’ll ruin him for any other gun, sort of like letting him drive a Ferrari and expecting him settle for a ford later.

Big copy

I do not understand your methods of machining . The jaws on the chuck should have been soft jaws not hard jaws . If you would have put a dial indicator on the o.d. of the barrel you would have noticed run out . The o.d. of the barrel isn't concentric to the bore of the barrel . The wall thickness isn't consistent . The soft jaws should be bored to the barrel o.d. A gauge for threads would be helpful to ensure thread dia. and pitch . An example would be a go or no go gauge .