Donna. B. Omg yes!!

Yes! I am guilty of this!

Depends on the person, but yeah, that does make sense

Yes. I got tangled up with someone who lives in building. I talked to my building manager about her and he confirmed what I suspected. Also, I think she's ignored the letter I put in her personal cubby. I think my apartment manager told her that there was something in her cubby later yesterday, but I think she knew what I was doing upstairs earlier when I bumped into her on the elevator and she figured it out when he told her about the letter. When I was upstairs delivering that letter to her, I bumped into her on the elevator and I got the third degree from her." What are you doing up here? You are never up here."Well, if I was bold enough I could have to her it was my building, too or I was going to visit my friend on the first floor but I didn't. She scared the crap out of me. So, I went downstairs and to my apartment manager and he said put it in her cubby but it was still there late this afternoon. I took it out and mailed it to her. This woman, I don't like saying bad things about her but she's this type of person. Plays on people's feelings. Uses them and bosses them around, like she did me. Alcohol in my car, making me drive aggressively, and 2 days in a row when I was coming down with something, to her ex's (that she hates) home in another suburb in the cold, windy rain, just to chew him out and squeeze 10$ from him, even though she claimed to me she was worried about him, gives her youngest son money "just for being her baby," all that shit. Couldn't stand it no more. The alcohol is illegal and she knew it, too. I guess I'm not the only one she's done it to, either.

There was once a ugly barnicle , And then he........ died. How is the story ?

mmmm yes well said

Not sure how you can avoid having affective empathy without deliberately dehumanizing the subject. Perhaps this is why certain, hopelessly miserable people, get assessed as not 100% human. Once we lose hope on ever being able to completely help a chronically homeless person, a drug addict, denizen of the third world, someone with mental illness or retardation etc., it becomes necessary to assume that they are in some way less than human and feel pain less acutely than the rest of us. Not criticizing this strategy. It may be necessary. Just suggesting that there is a price for it. Not sure, however, that compassion requires affective empathy, as some claim. If you need to feel empathy in order to be concerned about another person’s well being, you are probably the definition of a bad person.

@@somexp12 you just avoid certain individuals you can't feel affective empathy

@@somexp12 you hit the nail on the head. Look at videos where the person with personality disorders are referred to as what, not who, and referred to as less than human. It's one thing to protect yourself and another to strike out at people who are already struggling. People don't seem to simply disengage. There's too much anger.

Grief tourists come to mind.

@@Julie-ev5js Yes. It is a way to explain chronic illness to someone who may not understand why you don't want to go out after work, or why you don't want to commit to an evening out, etc. You are only given so many "spoons" when you wake up each day and that may vary. Every activity takes away your spoons, dressing, driving, work, eating, etc..including social interactions. And for some, spoons are not replenished easily, as only whatever individual activities (sleep, hobbies, downtime, etc) help regain your spoons. For me, I have some chronic illnesses and managing around those is priority one-health. The second is my immediate family and work. And third, anything left over has to get whatever I have left..if any. This includes being a sounding board for some people who just want an ear. I used to have a real issue with my health, both physical and mental due to always trying to be the best friend to anyone who wanted me to be that. It attracted a lot of people that Dr. Grande spoke about. So using the spoon methodology, I am able to communicate quickly why I can or can't do something in category three. The spoon "theory" was coined by Christine Miserandino, in a 2003 essay "The Spoon Theory" (from "But You Don't Look Sick."). I hope this helps. There is information about this on the web as well.

Well, if you think about it, it would be selfish of the people trying to take more than you can healthily give. If they don't care about your well-being, well....

Yes! Well said.

Lily McAllister I don’t think you’re being selfish, I think that’s self caring 😀

@@lilymcallister9751 thanks for that reference. I don't look sick, well I can't walk or move properly, but I swear I get accused of"playing the victim" if I am honest with people about it. I know, off topic, but I want to read that book now.

You summed up in this one sentence why the majority of humans hide behind callousness. This mindset causes suffering world wide.

I claim to have too much empathy. It does make vulnerable and I hate it. Makes it difficult for others, too, sometimes

When sky is no longer blue and the Sun don't shine no more and there is just pain and suffering everywhere... in your head and you feel sick and don't really now whether is it you who's bad or whether you just gather the negative energy from your surroundings and people you care about and what is the point of it and can it ever do any good to anybody.. :-) I think that it can be helpful, when you pay attention to what environment you choose and what people you are surrounded with and it give you a sense of unity in certain environment. And it can really be helpful. I think that empathy used to serve really well in times when people lived in smaller groups, so they didn't became overwhelmed, that's a problem not just with empathy today. Empathy works for positive emotions as well and I believe that it's 100% possible to learn how to filter the negativity away in a healthy and perhaps even useful way and bring more positive energy in. I just have to find how. Any suggestions?

Empathy can and will be used against you. If affective empathy still dictates your decision-making you need to grow up!

"Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold." Matthew 24:12 This was the quote that jumped out when I read this.

I have, too. I think that qualifies as negative empathy. And as "in your face" schadenfreude.

I've always felt it was important to call them on it and then keep telling my story without missing a beat. You share it because it's too terrible to hold in, and at this point in your life it doesn't matter whether people find you a burlesque or not. That attitude is more likely to command respect if anything can with these jerkwads.

@@flawedplan Actually, when I figured it out, I did call them out.

That is why the old saying "pearls before swine" was coined. Some people do not deserve one's innermost self, only one's public self. Trust new people with something lightweight, see how they handle it, how trustworthy they are, if they pass the initial test, trust them with a little bit at a time so you are only using precious time and energy on trustworthy people, not people who would use you for their entertainment (that's what TV is for:)

Or, in my experience, they just want you to lean on them so they can feel like the saviour or the saint who is soOoOoO empathetic and kind

Copper Lebrun that sounds awful and actually it sounds like covert hostility

Good day sir. Are you able to define an "ordered personality" in a way that does not make tacit or explicit reference to social values?

I can't wrap my head around that but I am trying to understand.

Hmm, interesting. I have noticed (some) people diagnosed with BPD also exhibit schadenfreude when they were feeling bad - "If I have to feel crappy, others having a crappy day too makes me feel better". I suppose the reason for this is similar to what you said about individuals with NPD: resentment and envy, the perception that other people are against them or don't understand them. With BPD, there is often assumption that others don't have problems like they have. Which is true in a way - while the problems may be similar, the BPD individual's emotional regulation skills are lacking and often have poor self-esteem, thus the same problem causes them more distress than a "normal" individual. I have read in quite a few places that NPD and BPD are kind of "sister personality disorders" - they share a lot of symptoms, but they have different approaches to control their feelings of inadequacy.

@@ambregris Yes, BPD and NPD seem to come from the same place : high-level dependency and low self-esteem. But as you said they seem to rely on different approaches to cope with the condition.

Amen🙏🥰!!!

such a great comment yes Dr grande sculpts

Ann lvselvis It’s interesting because I have always looked at it in the opposite way. I was often told my emotion was too intense or a burden for others. I never wanted to hurt other people, so I have considered it as a more negative trait since. It can also get in the way with more simple things like watching a movie with rather ‘disturbing’ scenes. Sometimes I just can’t deal with any of that, what is considered entertainment only makes me feel terrible. I find it interesting as well how ‘being an empath’ is generally considered a ‘better person’. I disagree. I know several fellow empaths that could be absolutely vicious to other people.

Maybe motivation is not fixed but rather subject to change.

At first:i am not talking about the strange esoteric version of being an "Empath".^^ I am an "high end" Empath on the spectrum. :D Yes, it is a spectrum...from non to way too much.^^ If you are absolutley sure that the person who told you they are an empath wanted you to feel less worth, than i highly doubt it is an Empath or have more than average empathy. But if it is just a inferiority complex, low selfreflection and you yourself cause the problem by your self manipulated imagination... I say this because this often happens to empathic people in the higher spectrum. It is like a symptom. That has many reasons (too much to count them). All i want to say it: No, we are not worth more than everybody else. We have that thing we are better in (but paying a high price, believe me), like everyone else has one...some just think they have non..and that's not true.

@@Jezzebel1313 yes, I agree. I would say I'm an empath....only to mean I feel emotions deeply and I FEEL what others are feeling without wanting it and without trying. So when I explain to anyone, which is rare, something about my being an empath, it's not at all to communicate that "I'm good" BUT rather it's to explain why they probably just watched me sob! I'm explaining so that they know that I'm really ok and they don't have to help me, fix me, or do anything to assist me. I'm OK. Thus, they can be released from any empathetic feelings my sobbing might have stirred up in them....or be released from those awkward emotions that normal people feel when around some who seems very distressed.

@@rlm9093 I know exactly what you're talking about. I don't tell people why I don't just cry at the end of (let's say) Forest Gump, but like it breaks my heart and I cry like it's about me personally. If someone smile at my tears, then I also laugh and say something like "oh, I'm just so teary, overly sensitive" (I won't even talk about empathy in this case). That's what people want to hear (my experience). We know well what would happen if we told the truth, right? And the truth is that we simply perceive the consequences of the problems and the grief in an story much more deeply. And we feel more deeply with the characters. People like you and me are very afraid of hurting others or making them feel bad. I now refer to it as "warm empathy". "Cold empathy" is when someone learns to read the feelings of others. For example, narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths learn this. Just as they learn to pretend to be very empathic. They use it specifically to manipulate people.

Sounds like you might be right. Like when starting to monitor a lot of people without their prior knowledge and consent; then offering 'empathy' along with one of those there kind of conversion therapy fashioned labels to all those whom they are monitoring while perceiving them to be from now on only ever going to be ailing and wasting away; And finally, while continuing to not inform them while expecting and requiring from themselves 'perfect' conformity and the full conformity there of all those being monitored all along -- On occasion simply going along with the flow there more often as time goes on but only for their own in 'submissiveness' without thinking they will never have to be responsible for any consequences to themselves there. [Until they find themselves in the same kind of expected to from now on only ever going to be ailing and wasting away too].

Sweety watch drunk history about Dolly Parton. She wrote it for her friend Porter Wagner. Even though he sued her she always loved him!!!!!

Every generation of people must cope with a broad range of slightly different challenges no matter who they are. Like women born in around the middle of the last century who were often being coerced and forced to give up living out their biological motherhood fully. I believe that Dolly Parton is being genuinely charitable with her time.

+1

I love that! 😅

that’s it in a nutshell.

I tell myself that every curse is a blessing and every blessing is a curse.

People can take you for granted but why do we let them should be what we ask ourselves.

I feel it's also about boundaries and balance.

Oh stop, next we will be saying little fluffy kittens are the devil incarnate

@@fidelis1480 . No, not at all.

Donna. B. Me too

Yeah that's the conserving your compassion from compassion fatigue. It can happen a lot in service work and healthcare work. The customers are mostly looking to take and forget the workers are human so it can make people really jaded. It's why I always try to treat people well who work in service jobs of any kind.

Iquey- Okay so maybe you will call this statement jaded- but, where money (cash) is involved, please be careful. I mean tips, and that sort of thing. Just please watch for yourself, and don’t be hurt.

It's happening to me so... Yeah. Learning boundaries for the good of humanity (cause I will hit somebody if this keeps on going).

I think this is me right now...

@@pr433 Everyone is found by these people, they are only entertained by a certain type of person. If they are allowed to linger by you, they will. It's not attraction, it's establishment. Take inventory because they'll always cross everyone's path.

Same here. The advice I find is to NOT react to these types of people. But if you’re not reacting, you’re not giving them what they want. Damned if you do react, damned if you don’t has been my experiences.

Dr. Todd Grande, I'm a dentist and a foreign languages teacher, but I absolutely adore psychiatry! I found your channel and I'm so happy to be listening to such a wise person! Thank you again! I'm not a narcissist 😂 I'm just too excited you gave me a ❤️🙈

@Ben Hackett No, I definitely would not say that. But it is still surprising when really talented people turn out to be shits or worse. I know: I live near an Ivy League school. The "ruling elites" are a class study in the lack of empathy.

@@brusselsprout5851 Yes, it must be terrible to have almost everything any reasonable person would ask for and still be so weirdly deprived.

Sometimes you don't want the empathic person in your head any more than they want to be there.

blackriverbailey Agreed

Mine to!🤗😊

Mine for ages! Our lovely Doc!

Yeah, it opened my eyes to many things I never thought about... Very sobering. I have my own search though relating to microbiology i so much wish psychology would be integrated with neuroscience. Neuroscience thought doesn't give us tools to change our behavior, but this does... Yet, this is helpful on many levels!

Guilty. I've done that too.

Yes he has a very soothing voice

Maybe he has a soporific voice :)

Nightmares reduce without medication. And might learn a thing or two 🤔

Noam Chomsky is a pseudo linguistic philosopher who searches for the meaning of meaning. Out of all the political philosophers there are to choose from,Chomsky should be the last on the list.

I can see nationalism as a construct for example: people dedicated to the military and their irrational submission to authority for example how do you convince people to agree to military training which you have to endure getting beat up and other duress to prove the candidate have no consciouness and no self worth thus fit for a career in the army forces. I can see the adoration for certain Sports as a way of brain washing for the purpose of military life and nationalism construction. Noan Chomsky is a brilhant scholar but we live in such shallow society that some people dont respect outstanding scholars, (probably due to envy) in fact linguistics it is a very insightful field of studies.

You said it well, friend! 👍🏾

Good book. Would recommend. He does tend to write in circles, however, like he proved his point in the first few chapters and didn't seem to come up with new information or research that further supported his view which was a shame.

Ninjanova Please do! I have a friend who doesn’t seek help with it and it’s only getting worse. She lost a lot of friends and family since. I am the only friend she’s got left. Sadly she got angry with me recently - again - because any negative topic is hurting her. Which kind of sucks because I cannot talk about weight, food, acne, my house, pets, financial issues, other friends, family, my car and even my plants with her or she’ll project on herself in some way. You will only end up isolating yourself.

@@hagelslag9312 thank you. I am. I have being in therapy for 3 years and I am building my boundaries. I do love to do my best to help others, and I am always there, I do not isolate. But as I feel all their worry and pain I am constantly baring it and it affects me and backlashes in bad bad coping mechanisms. Thank you. And I hope your friend finds a way around, even if that is being surrounded by a happy bubble for a bit to gain energy back.

Love your avatar 🖖🖖

Wow, I didn't really get empathic sadism until I read that, I would say she was the perfect example, yes!

I’m definitely an empath, but I have traits that don’t make sense. I’m here because I’m looking for info about what you said, “narcissist empaths”. Doesn’t seem to be much info out there.

I can’t stand these wannabe empaths. So oblivious that they are pretty much exactly like a narcissist, except more of a self-righteous hypocrite. They don’t actually care about other peoples problems, it just makes them “feel like a good person” for absorbing someone else’s drama.

I used to think this was me too. I was confused as to how I could be a supposed empath whilst at the same time having many narcissistic traits. There's a term called the Dark Empath. Read about that. It may explain some things. There's a woman I know who constantly says she's an empath, but she's one of the most self absorbed, insecure, self obsessed and opinionated people I know! She'll talk over you, interrupt, with no idea she's doing it. She only ever talks about herself. I honestly think she really does believe she's an empath, but in reality, the only person she's empathic with is herself. In my own case, I realised I AM a slight empath. I'm an expert at cognitive empathy. I ONLY have deep and strong affective empathy for my loved ones and animals. Otherwise, nope. And I also realised I'm not actually a narcissist per se. I'm just above average on the spectrum. So it may not be that simple as to whether you're a true or total empath, OR a true or total narcissist.

Blacklisting a patient doesn't sound very supportive, surely there are better ways to demonstrate integrity when dealing with vulnerable people? Even in terms of not being able to offer them therapy?

Fidelis I agree. It’s so damaging for the patient but it happens especially for people with borderline pd, challenging behaviour or dual diagnosis.

I can’t imagine a patient would respond very well to being blacklisted, can see their reaction to this being pathologised even further. There are pro social outcomes to treating individuals with a positive moral regard.

Fidelis it happened to me and it has made me more introverted, more hopeless and my situation in life has worsened not improved at all. It does however make you less reliant on others so you have to just manage your illness.

@@lyndaburn6428 Sorry to hear that, when people are in an extremely stressed state due to personal circumstances it can be expressed in less "desirable" ways. Not cooperating, frustration. We are social creatures though, I hope your experience doesn't cause you to lose your faith in others . Many are experiencing this from the services who are meant to help. There are kind people out there and those who will understand that your "negative" emotional expression does not equal bad character. A decent mental health professional should treat you with a positive moral regard. In the UK too, there is a very negative attitude towards people seeking help, claiming they are attention seeking, taking resources away from people who really need it. It is really shocking.