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She won because that dress slays 😍

My understanding: Ultimecia is from far in the future where sorceresses get imprisoned/enslaved (which the game tells us) at a young age, when you fight her in the last form you can see a woman hanging upside down and I believe that this is Ultimecia's real body. I believe that her mind got so corrupted from being enslaved for such a long time, she found a way to escape it by mentally going outside of space time. Even though her mind was free again in het space-time Palace she still hungers for revenge, and the only way to execute her plan of destroying the world and becoming a god (and thus freeing her from her imprisonment and taking revenge on Human kind that enslaved her) is to take control over a sorceress in the past. What she doesn't fully realized is that when she takes over Edea she accidentally sets off a chain of events that will lead to her own demise. This is what she realised at the end of the final battle and why we says Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you, she has come to terms with the fact that she can not change what happened to her and this is where her story ends and she finally gets to die and be at peace.

This is possible if ultimecia is conscious throughout the process, because she knows what's happening between loops. If this is her plan all along, then kudos to ultimecia!

Yeah basically FF8 borrowed from FF1 but instead of Garland/Chaos having the four fiends use the power of the elemental crystals to send him back to the past before he died in the future, so he can take the power, become chaos and send the fiends forward to crate the loop. Ultimica uses the past sorceresses to basically create the same thing.

From what I understand, this was the case. the 3 Initial Timelines- In the First Timeline... All the characters in the game that we know existed, but not with the same relevance as when we played, in that timeline, Ultimecia was eventually defeated by other characters. *Here I mean that it was NOT defeated by the Seeds, but by another institution for calling it that, Likewise, Ultimecia was not as strong as we knew her in the game either.* And as implied in the ending of the game, Ultimecia went back to the past to find a sorceress to pass on her powers (and essence with her thoughts and purposes). In a Second Timeline, Edea knows what will happen to her in the future after she received Ultimecia's powers and memories she knew it and couldn't avoid it, That's why she, in this timeline, started the Seeds project... *But not as perfected as we knew it in the game*, in which Squall was not involved either. As the years went by Ultimecia began to have more control over Edea Ultimecia's plans were carried out to the point that she (Ultimecia) was "born" in the future where (I guess) she killed Edea to regain her powers.. but this time, Ultimecia was defeated by The Seeds Third time line; Here are the events of FFVIII, if I remember correctly when Ultimecia possessed Edea, She (Ultimecia) remember the Seeds, those who defeated her in a past timeline.. Here there was an essential change compared to the previous timeline. Upon receiving Ultimecia's powers and memories, Edea knew that the project was successful, but not in the way expected Indeed Ultimecia was defeated, but they failed to stop Edea (Like in FFVIII) and the future was already all screwed So this time, she (Edea) perfected the Seed project even more, including the characters we use in the game. and they failed (again) Then everything continues as we already know, Squall and company defeat Ultimecia, at that moment where they were lost in time, Squall finds Edea and tells her about the Seed project that she started... and in the end everything seems that from this point on it will be an endless loop Maybe in a fourth timeline things could have been different Since this time Edea will know that it is not enough to just stop her (kill her), but they would also have to eliminate any existing sorceress at the time (including Rinoa) so that Ultimecia's power cannot reach anyone and is lost forever. Especially the one they would have to eliminate is Ellone because if they don't, in the future Ultimecia will use her ability to send her consciousness to the past (I suppose Ultimecia also learned to send her power) Remember that Ultimecia will always be born in the future. Despite the ending of Final Fantasy 8, Squall and company eliminated an adult Ultimecia who had already regained her powers and also took possession of Ellone, since in the end, Ultimecia returned to the past again and inherited her memories/consciousness, powers, etc. to Edea It's a pain if you think about it... they only have 2 ways to prevent history from repeating itself... eliminate all the sorceresses or eliminate Ultimecia before she is born (if you can call it that)

Always had a crush on her

its possible that ultimecia keeps knowledge of whom her powers pass through which then explains some of the old fan theories about ultimecia being rinoa its just that ultimecia saw rinoas memories so each loop she would essentially learn more and more about squall and his party since each loop would have variations she would see how they react each time / this in turn makes you wonder if at some point she starts giving edea power for more than one reason ~ maybe to test squall since she would know squall will eventually fight edea .... actually that also explains why edea knew where to shield from irvines sniper shot during the assassination mission / it would also explain why she takes seifer as a "knight" if ultimecia has rinoas and by that method edeas memories

I'm going to buy that Ultimecia might have created a time loop... but I'm going to put a hard pass on her ultimately winning. Time travel, and especially 'time compression' would have to be insanely costly to do. So, she can set the loop and give the Matron her power, but after expending so much to try to compress time, do the battle (she's ultimately dying from the party as well, which is going to weaken her more) and then using more magic to send her power to the Matron through time (which is in a hell of a spot at the moment, so how knows if that'd be easier or harder), she'd probably only send... well how powerful Edea is, or less so and she grew in power by the time we fight her in VIII. Otherwise it's not a stable loop and something would break and the whole game is pointless, which I've yet to see a Final Fantasy that goes that route.

I'm fully convinced Ultimecia is the true hero of the main plot...Ultimecia is attempting to SAVE herself from the timeloop of SeeD which only exists to destroy the Sorceress..she tricks squall and everyone into being killed in the future only to force a repetitive loop where squall tells Edea to create Garden and SeeD in the past....if Ultimecia is to ever succeed, a singular timeline where only she exists -is free from harm and able to live her life without fear of being hunted and murdered- will also allow her to be the final sorcerer thus ending the reasoning for a timeline where SeeD exists, where Sorcerers are hunted, and where society lives cohesively with one another....in relation to Squall and the timeline he exists in, he unknowingly forces himself into a timeloop by becoming SeeD and defeating future-ultimecia. It's likely that Ultimecia [allows] herself to be killed by squall in an attempt to initiate the timeloop and transfer her powers to Edea from the past...who will eventually be possessed by her in the future anyway. If the sorceress powers continue to grow, forcing herself to transfer her powers to a witch from the past allows her sorceress powers to grow unaffected by time travel....eventually, Ultimecia will succeed...she has every right to protect herself, as the sorceress powers are not something someone asks for, but rather forced into as the previous sorceress dies and the powers are forcefully given to anyone with magical affinity to contain it....Ultimecia, in conclusion, was forced into becoming a hated woman due to SeeD and knew she would one day be murdered...her motive is to eliminate all these points of suffering by using her magic to create a reality where she won't be murdered, SeeD won't exist, and the sorceress powers will end with her as she will have no one to pass her powers on to... (to support this theory: Squall defeats the version of ultimecia that exists within his future, however Rinoa will eventually pass her sorceress powers on and eventually reach the woman who inevitably becomes Ultimecia. Unless squall is able to discover the identity of the woman who eventually becomes Ultimecia, defeating her future-self only reactivates a timeloop. Squall, in attempt to save himself and rescue the timeline he exists in, unknowingly helps ultimecia. To repeat: ULTIMECIA WAS NEVER EVIL, the world she exists in far into the future forced her into isolation as society knew SeeD existed to destroy her as a sorceress, while she may appear cold on the surface, she sees the past-reality through which she travels to and manipulates Edea from, as a point in time that is RESPONSIBLE for forcing her future self to become helpless and victim to mistreatment for powers she never wanted....she is forced into being hated, given powers she never wanted, and through these circumstances becomes aware that she will, in fact, be murdered....Squall is both halting and aiding ultimecia, both helping and hurting. Until he exists in a timeline where he does not become SeeD (which will not happen) it will be ultimecia who pays the price for it...

It’s certainly possible but I’ve always chalked it all up to this being the problem when you bring time into a medium. It puts so many plot holes an variables into play.

I'm not sure how this would give ultimecia more power when what's happening is a time loop. It could only work if ultimecia existed outside the time loop itself. She gained enough power to allow her to begin the time compression, but was still defeated and travels back to pass her power to edea. The only way she could win this would be to break the loop, and if she breaks it she can't travel back in time to begin the process. It's a paradox

Ah, Ultimecia and Edea. FF8 game me an undying fetish for hot evil women when I was 11.

I like this theory! I believe my only counter-argument is that its not stated in the game that the sorceress powers stack with each timeloop, I think the time paradox was only to give context to Ultimecia’s time powers. Also great thumbnail.

I always believe the powers of the sorceress remain the same, it didn't multiply, sorceress will always have the same level of magic regardless of how many sorceress they gain powers from. the only reason Ultimacia wanted to go so further into the past was to achieve the time compression loop, why? who knows! but to do that she needed the powers of Elone, I don't think was because she needed more power. that is what i understand. And even if Ultimacia create a loop, that loop will lead to her defeat. At the end she lose because she die, defeated by Seed's.

I like the timeloop not ever ending. It makes sense in a meta context of it being a video game.

This would be even more confirmed if there were a new game plus where you level over 100 and every monster/boss still scaled with you

What Ultimecia means by her statement is that one cannot escape time, only by controlling it, can you not be enslaved by it.

Alt theory: Ulty wins because she frees herself from being persecuted and ends the sorceress line. Imagine, she's the last remaining sorceress getting hunted and possibly imprisoned for fear of being "Ultimecia." She does everything in FF8, and then goes back in time to relinquish her powers to Edea. If she does this, that means that in her original timeline, no one else would receive the power of Hein. She is free, and no one else will bear the burden of being a sorceress from her original time on.

Big thumbs up! I never liked nor believed the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory but this...now this is believable. Great vid. I look forward to hearing more theories.

This has been my head cannon since 1998 lol. Kefka and Ultamecia I consider the best bosses: Kefka cause he actually dooms the world and Ultimecia because of Time Kompression.

An interesting proposition for a Remake sequel would be for Ultimecia to break that cycle and instead enter Squall's time line into another candidate and wreck havok.

Rinoa is stacked.

I like this theory. Keep more coming! Just watch out for the vocal fumbles and maybe re-record mistakes so that you have more momentum

I like the idea of Rinoa becoming an Alternate Universe/2nd Ultimecia that compressed time to be alone due to Squall dying at the end of disc 1.

I agree with your theory. I just played the remastered version. I came to the exact same conclusion you did, but I’ve been looking to see if anyone else has. Most videos don’t connect this. In my mind, it was just plain as day throughout the whole game and dialogue.

I think you are somewhat right, and maybe its also a bit of a draw. I was thinking you could also see it that she simply has achieved her goal to rule time when you go to her castle this is already in another time dimension or something, couldnt it simply be that this is what she is ruling. And because of the seed getting there she simply resets the loop because she will loose to the seed. But if she compresses time she keeps the loop going that causes squall to start the whole loop again causing her to be ruler of her own dimension the whole game until the point you reach her.

In Ultimecia's last form, you see her real body hanging from another form. My theory is that the other form is the original essence of Sorceress, Hein. Its such a mysterious entity, named throughout all of the game that it makes no sense to be forgotten. As ULtimecia gather the powers of all the Sorceress she becomes the true vessel of Hein, all its power finally joined in one place in time. So when it is defeated Hein just sends Ultimecia back in time again and again hoping that something will change... Elone may be part of Hein herself, being able to send cousciousness back in time, not being a Sorceress seems strange, it looks like a midpoint failsafe for her to able to control a huge extent of time. Jusy my 2 pennies here lol

It seems to me that this game its scenarios, locations, characters, are fixed and static while you/we the observer/central meaner are engaged in playing its stories. we imbue the game with are own vitality animating and engaging with what is essentially a reflection of ourselves. The themes and outcomes are set. Only when not playing after a cycle ends do the characters, locations and stories become unfixed and in flux with their potentialities returned to them. Is Squall dead in a way yes. Is Rinoa the final sorceress yes and no. When we play the game their characters and relationships are fixed in our mind. When we stop playing the game they return to a state of flux although the outcome remains the same. That they only exist and are animate through the observer within the unending loop of the game. There is no true resolution this is shown clearly in the final frames of the end credits where Squall and Rinoa can never quite Embrace. For this reason Ff8 is perhaps the most alluring and enigmatic of the mainline titles.

I assumed she created a perpetual loop. As long as everything repeats itself infinitely, she would attain immortality.

Until Edea gets to powerful and can't be defeated by the party. Which in turn would change the future and make ultimacia not to be born to Inhert these powers. I feel it would only be the future powers sent to the past at its same power level

If this is true, then in the End *No One* wins and *Everyone Wins* ... Depends on the angle you look from at it

The pronunciation of the NAAAAAMESS. 😭 cool theory tho

But if she gives all that power to Edea, eventually Edea will be too powerful for a weaker Ultimecia to possess from the future. It's more likely shes in a prison repeating the same moments throughout all of time never ending.

The real paradox is to understand how was the story before the loop started... because 'SeeD' would have never existed without Squall going to the past to tell Edea who are 'SeeD'... and if 'SeeD' never existed, Ultimecia and Squall would have never started the loop, so the entire story is a paradox... This means Ultimecia has no really the control of the time to decide to start the loop, but she is herself a victim of the time paradox too...

This theory work well with rinoa is ultimecia theory; all those convoluted timey wimey stuffs becoz rinoa want to end it all...

One thing bothers me: why didn't she play lottery? 🤔🤔🤔 I mean, she is from the future. She should know some results...

Love this theory

and i see connections here... not intentional i guess but anyway.... the thing about jenova... the life force that enslaves Mako, and the sorceresses... all things, all evils, seem to work in the same process in PSX's final fantasy games (I'm not into IX YET, coming back here years later or months later, maybe...)

New video part for this one comes out tomorrow!!! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gLF0abigm6fPn2w.htmlsi=nYQEWuT45_IHvEeX

you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how causal loops work. it's only happening once, over and over again. edea is always gaining the same power from ultimecia and is then sought out by the past version of herself for that power. there is no gain. it's the same events re-occuring in an infinite loop. that's how bootstrap paradoxes operate.

Been years since really played FF8. But if i remember she is "far" into the future. You are assuming that one of the sorceresses that does get the time looped power, does not change the future and Ulimecia may never be born or her life experience has change because of the power consolidation. Example: would any of us be alive if the titanic didn't sink, who extra would be alive. Further back, what if the American revolution never happened, has same question. Any event big or small. Will say she is dying when she transfers her power, so has little to lose anyways.

Considering how dreamlike the ending of the game is, I think it could be debated if you even actually defeat her.

Holy shit that is terrifying!

I don't think she's the winner. I think there was something incredibly dark and tragic hinted at during her dialogue at the later part during her final form. She wanted to know everything about the past, present and future. As she gained that knowledge she *also* gained the knowledge of how things were going to end up and that she had made a huge mistake she'd pay for forever. She realized she was going to lose. And she realized she was going to go around and around time forever. In other words, she was begging Squall: "Think... About your childhood..." (Please kill me before I reach her this time!) But Squall, the party and even the player can't understand. This is why Squall appears briefly to witness Ultimecia pass on the curse. Ultimecia used the last of her power to take Squall there on purpose to strike her down. So I interpreted her final line of "Can't... Die... Yet." as her horror at realizing this didn't work. It didn't work all the other times and it won't work now. The Sorceress of time will spend an eternity of doing time in time itself. It is a Jojo villain fate for her!

Dying Ultimecia passes her powers -----> Edea Edea controlled by Ultimecia's consciousness -----> defeated by Squall Edea passes her powers -----> Rinoa Rinoa controlled by Ultimecia's consciousness ------> awakens Adel Adel absorbs Rinoa's powers -----> defeated by Squall Ultimecia made time compression ------> defeated by Squall Defeated Ultimecia passes her powers ------> Edea And loop goes on and on..

Perfect. Its almost a Lynchian time travel if you think about it. Could David Lynch have played FF8 before twin peaks season 3? ok, not important... but the thing i wanted to add... i believe you are right and game producers could explore this ambiguity in a future remake... but what i believe is that, even further, ultimecia is not ultimecia... she did not win... its a love story, marketed as such, beginning with the logo: squall was not tricked. it was his plan with rinoa all along, just so they could re-live their eternal love inside the loop, and laguna and julia were also part of the plan. They knew their love was so special that appearance couldnt kill it, they'd reincarnate as their sons and realize it... that's what happened.

Sorry you have so many stupid comments to this video, asking questions that you just answered in the video and bringing up other theories. Your theory rocks

is the same with Young xehanort finally becomes the Old xehanort we knew .. and then Ansem come into play..

So where is FFVIII-2? Where we see this timeline?

Ultimecia walking around pigeon-toed on an episode of "Pregnant and Barefoot" in a tattoo parlor. I mean, she doesn't look pregnant but everything else is there. >________>

Holy shit you're right. Still doesn't rule out R=U but this definitely is true

So like a new game+, eh? Thats an interesting thought.

I’m not stuck in my body with Ultimecia, she’s stuck in there with me.

My theory is Squall has crones disease and that is why he is able to force Crits because he’s always trying to hurry battles along so he can go potty

Time loop sounds like ff1 with garland becomes chaos and ultimecia is similar but with the sorceress power in a ways or if rinoa is ultimecia like garland is chaos like they say for the theories of rinoa

This theory is a lot like the plot of Madoka Magica.

Bruh I cant get over the "Ultimeesha" you keep saying, who that is?? 😂😂😂😂

You cant create something from nothing. When Ultimecia is sent into the past for the final time, and passes her powers to Edea, Edea does not have Ultimecia's power before this. When the events of the game unfold (again), That power gets passed on, but any power that was Already there due to the events of the loop will remain constant and not duplicate. The only way this might be possible is to say this isnt a loop, but a multiverse, and there is no indication from the game producers or the game itself that hints to that. If what you said was true, as you said, she would reach a point where she would defeat Squall and enact he plans. But this would alter the events in her past, eliminating the very source of her power. You end up with a paradox. And as much as I'm sure Time Kompression (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) would achieve he goal, I don't think enacting a paradox is what she intended. Unless it was a bootstrap paradox, in which case, "Such devastation, this was not my intention!"

I like the theory,but I dont see Ultimecia gaining more power each loop. I rather think that she is traped in time loop and that this will only repeat forever her defeat is inveitable. In order for her to stop the seed she would create a paradoxon,where Edea doesn't get her power at that point nore Rinoa. She would need to to change the whole timeline. This theory would only for if she is lives/traped in a world and space ,where time doesn't exist ,but that would mean that she already compressed time and maybe only in the Castle. But this was never stated in the game so we dont know if the time in her Castle is compressed or not.

You uhh saying something? I was uhh distracted by the thumbnail.

I like it! Can we get a part 2?

Well technically since she's stuck in a time loop she gets to live forever

I love the video

this is so good! That one sentence always bugged me. Did she project herself in squall's childhood at the end of the battle with the help of the ellen junction?

Squenix should remake FF8 for more mature audiences and canonize the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory, make 2 parts where the 1st part explains the time loop and in the 2nd part it's up to the player to become part of the loop and live in a single infinite moment with Rinoa, or kill her and save the world, with the option of getting the happy ending after a second playthrough. If they do it right and plan out the story to match the time loop, it wouldn't feel repetitive, kind of like Netflix's Dark.

Interesting, and if you go with sorceress power that gets passed on = Hyne living on through this process, he/artimesia get strong enough to return to his GodHood and fufill his goal of starting creation over. Damn lol

i don't think the power actually stacks infinitely. extra dimensional as a power? sure. but a god is of a higher dimension than just the mortal realm.

I think your argument fill in holes to the story that other KZfaqrs aren’t discussing. It makes sense. I don’t agree with the idea that Rinoa is directly Ultimecia because i suspect they are two separate individuals. I suspected that Square Enix design Ultimecia to be another ultra-antagonist that follows a virw that Taurus-theme character are the ultimate villain. I see it in Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Ardyn and his brother, Darth Vader, Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet. To say that Rainos and Ultimecia are the same is like saying Jesus Christ and Emperor Palpatine are the same individuals.

i believe Ultimacia = the future Renoa i knew it's not ture BTW but if it's real FF8 is masterpiece for me

so... basically, ultimecia created an everlasting time loop to collect the power of witches until she becomes undefeatable? well, there are two little flaws in this theory: first, it's not ultimecia who makes squall return to the orphanage of the past, but rinoa. remember? rinoa made squall promise to meet her at the flower meadow behind the orphanage. thus, ultimecia's speech has nothing to do with the time loop. the second flaw are the witches we fight during the time travel. we fight three different types of witches and none of these fit into the story. I believe that the time loop (if there is one) is an accident and rather ultimecia's punishment. she is damned to re-live her defeat and rise over and over again.

The first wannabe reality warper in the franchise. Her time compression thing is another word for reality warping.

Sounds a lot like what Garland did in FF1 which was later used as Idea for Dissidia which is why Feral Chaos is actually a thing

There's one issue though, it is explicitly stated that every time a sorceress passes down her power, the power weakens.

You have not considered the possibility that if sorceresses in the past become too strong because of receiving power from Ultimecia, young Ultimecia in the future could be defeated by a stronger sorceress (good or evil) that has all gained that power from the time loop. So maybe another sorceress in the future is the winner. But this would have happened anyway, as long the succession of sorceress powers is unstoppable, no matter if there's time loop or not.

Every theory seems correct since the writers did shitty job at the end of the game events.

If this is true we are doomed! DOOOOOMED!!

Ff8 timeline makes no sense. In just 12 years, Edea builds the guardens, establishes seed, and learns about GF and how to use them, and then everyone involved gets anmnesia?

The sorceresseseseseseses

not bad idea

Wouldn't killing Edea break the time loop ?

How do you guys pronounce Edea? I thought it was Eedee?

Gawd damn

Hyne The Maker of the guys in FF8. TIMELOOP HYNE!!!!!

She's Rinoa

ultimecia and rinoa not beine the same person is what eventually makes ff8's story kinda stupid and the whole naming greivor thing completely pointless. i still don't know why they wouldn't have jumped on that despite it not being their intentions - it adds something interesting to a ff most people dislike

I have to disagree with you on this one. I believe the story, and all it's time travel shenanigans, followed the Novikov self-consistency principle. The principle states that whatever a time traveler does in the past has always happened. Squall giving Edea the idea for Garden and Ultimecia passing her powers to Edea happened the first time around, but we as the viewer weren't there to witness it as we didn't begin observing the story until Squall was a teenager.

I don't get how Rinoa passed any of her power to Ultimecia or Adel. I remember the game well and RInoa doesn't die at all unless she dies during the fight with Ultimecia of course. So how is this power getting back to Ultimecia???

Yeah... BUT in the FF8 universe there shall be only one sorceress at a time. That's why Edea's powers are passed on to Rinoa, the nearest "vessel" available. It isn't possible that Edea became her powers from TWO different sorceress

Nice theory but can you make a theory on how Ultimecia got GF the Griever on the final fight ? thanks

You're saying Ultimecia and Edea wrong... stop saying them wrong. :D

Eh, I don't buy it. You are thinking of time too linearly in this example. The whole game is a giant grandfather paradox in the first place... all of the actions attributed to time travel already have to be accounted for in the whole of the timeline as a result.

I wonder if any of the developers see these and laugh their asses off about theories on things they never considered or cared about

Never got to her in my game, Multiple reasons but, anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing a sequal/Redemption for her. If Kuja could have a heel-baby face turn...

How depressing.

this game has some fuc..ked up plot

Ultimecia is the real loser of FF8 actually, while she got what she wanted, that is, live in a repeated moment lol her death over and over again. She definitely didn’t win, after the loop everyone go back to live their lives. She’s the only one who doesn’t. Be careful what you wish for doesn’t even begin to describe it.