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Also, Ultimecia's castle is built where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet

Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same person the devs just used the GF so much they forgot

Ohhkay, I just played through this the first time and this game has so much theory crafting, I love it. I agree that Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same. Starting from where Squall dies in space (hence the ending cut scene), Rinoa knows she'll turn into Ultimecia from losing him. She knows Ultimecia warps to Edea when defeated to start a time loop where she never dies. This time when she gets back to the planet and captured though, Rinoa warps the beginning of the game where Squall is in the medic room and she's in the window, actually breaking the first time loop. This one is where Squall doesn't die in space, and they end up stopping Rinoa from turning into Ultimecia. So really, Rinoa is the real hero cause she essentially found a way to break the loop, and it causes Ultimeica to actually trap herself. It's very FF10 though where you're playing the past until you get to the campsite, and then you're finally playing the present. But in 8, you're playing the events over again, but this time, you don't die in space, and you're out of the loop after you're still alive from the space scene. It also bridges how you see him die, but it doesn't happen and the glass shatters just like the time loop. Just like how you see Rinoa buzz in and out of party scene at the end, cause I think the Rinoa at the party is the Rinoa from the future, not the past, starting to cultivate the relationship earlier than projected. I'm just having a hard time placing where they "actually" meet in the first loop if she never intervened. And for Griever not actually being Squall, I think he is. I believe there's 8 bosses in the castle, and 8 main characters if you're counting the Laguna and friends parts. Ultimeica not only reincarnates Squall into a GF, but also reincarnates the rest of her friends for her castle cause she never wanted to lose them.

Rinoa's special Sorceress' power is the ability to return or give life to things. Makes sense with Griever.

I think Ultemecia is Julia, Rinoa's mother. I always think about that scene where she plays the piano and talks to Laguna for the first time, and I often ask myself: Why would Square go out of their way to make such a drawn-out scene for a character that is never shown, mentioned, or brought up again for the rest of the game, unless she has something to do with the grand scheme of things? And then there's that red dress...

Squall's limit breaks: "Fated Circle"....I mean come on.

There is also this one moment ingame (during galbadia gardens attack on balamb garden; right after you safe Rinoa) when Rinoa will ask Squall whats the name of his chain pendant (the silver lion). You can give it a name. And "Griever" will have the very same name during the last fight against Ultimecia. So there is definitely a connection between Squal-Rinoa-Ultimecia-Griever. Also why would the devs bother to make you give it a name? It's just a piece of jewelry, right? I guess the answer is very simple: to make you think about it and form a connection.

The dev denying this theory means nothing. Sometime mystery is the better route to keep the discussion going. After my first playthrough the conclusion I came to was rinoa being ultimecia. They're both sorceresses. They both say and do similar things to squall. And the biggest clue squall being junctioned as griever. She absolutely is 100 percent ultimecia. U don't need the creator to confirm it for u make ur own minds up

Love this theory. If they do a remake this would be amazing.

Maybe iam a Lion.mp3

i am a big fan of this theory ever since

For a future video, could you please go over how Eden is a future Garden time traveling to help the party?

It actually makes perfect sense. Also with him being that it fits too since the power to make them could also pull harder at the memories and thus what happened happened

This might be a stretch but if Ultimicia is Rinoa. She might have used this whole battle to save Squall . The Theme of the story is Love and Time. Seeing the ending where I thought Squall was dead in Rinoa's arm (this might be Ultimitia in the first loop) .With the whole sorceresses passing down her powers perhaps she did this in several timelines amassing great power to ensure that the current Rinoa would have the power to bring back Squall to life. "Time is fleeting"

How about Squall became Rinoa's fayth, in a way? She grieves him, hence his name - Griever. It would'nt be the first time they carried some not-fully-realised concepts from game to game. The sorceresses actually came from an early draft of FF7 - with certain women carrying the jenova gene. Squall is dead theory -> FFX. I also think theres a parallel with FFvsXIII in how Squall/Noctis is forced to fight his loved one Rinoa/Stella, who has the power of a goddess (Ultimecia/Etro). And notice how the whole supposed dream-world narrative in FFvsXIII is rumored to revolve around alternative/past timelines (where Stella was killed by Noctis, for instance) - it reminiscent of dreams about Laguna in FF8 (but as abway more interesting take imo) Anyway, I'd be super excited if they actually made it unambiguously canon in the remake of ff8.

My head canon is Rinoa = Ultimecia. If God himself told me otherwise I would try to convince him he was wrong.

i don't understand how a lead developer could choose to use the name of ring squall gave to renoa as the name for ultimecia's GF then come out an say they aren't related at all... especially considering the end of the game, were ultimecia gives her power to edea proving that time is cyclical in ff8.. also the explanation at the end of disc 2 about GF's effecting memories, that also explains why she doesn't remember squall or anyone else. it don't make no sense for it to be any other way, Ultimecia IS renoa. i don't care what a dev say's or anyone else for that matter. it turns a pretty bland and average final villian into a tragic and interesting character. and since ff8 is already one of my favorite's i'd just prefer to go on thinking this way to make the experience that much better.

I knew about this theory but I hadn't for a second thought that perhaps Griever is Squall. That's actually a good theory!

I always believed that was the case.

Makes more sense then the dumb. The entire game is just squall dying, and the point people use is how Rinoa went from liking Seifer to, having feeling for squall..completely cutting out the time they spent and the fact...you know SEIFER HAD JUST TRIED TO KILL HER.

In the Japanese version, Ultimecia peers into Squalls mind and brings Griever into reality, she specifically says: "I will summon that which you think is the most powerful, the more you believe it, the greater its strength that will sure make you suffer".

Cannon of not now that you said it it makes perfect sense!

Small correction: You said in the beginning that the creators debunked it, but the guy who debunked it recently made a correction to his statement: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/oZ6RpraC1Ni3nps.html&ab_channel=reibitto

Some interesting points you mention that I haven't heard others bring up. I can see it being possible and also making sense, still not 100% convinced but making me think more about it anyway haha Really enjoying your theory vids! Have you heard the theory that the worlds of FFIII/VIII are the same just separated by maaaaany years?

Rinoa has a weapon called "cardinal" that has a design aesthetic to Ultimecia.

i find it amusing that just last week i beat this game finally

Also in Square pvp game Ultimicia has Rinoas weapon. Devs gave us so many hits, which is amazing. Love story telling which opens your imagination.

YoneTTEBAYO sir but thank you very much granting my request :D would replaying this wonderful game again on the future

Ultimecia is the Rinoa that didn't get saved in space. Corrupt timeline.

Kind of a shame 8 never got much in the way of sequel material, I feel like they could have addressed this somehow.

The creators can debunk whatever they want, Rinoa is Ultimecia.

What I think happened is that they originally wrote the story as Rinoa and Squall being Ultimecia and Griever, but ended up dropping it midway through. Future-me villain is a bit of a tacky trope if you spell it out, and explaining it in-game would be a nightmare. It would be another 30mins of unskippable scenes interfering with general flow. How do you tie all the hints and clues together in the final scene to make for a great reveal that's not forced? If you expose it mid-game, it totally overshadows the overall plot, maybe even (definitely) creates loopholes. I think they figured they can't pull it off properly, so they dropped the concept or in the very least, chose to not explain it. It's tacky if spelled out, but as a discovery it's brilliant.

I can shed some light on this theory.

I will give you the newest and strongest evidence. The magic activation effect changing depending on an enemy or ally. Fuujin, Raijin and Edea have the ally magic activation effects. Sound and color indicating their real intention that they don't want fight squall and. Seifer is the only unique one with mixed effects indicating he is having both enemy/ally intention. Now for the nail in the coffin, All the Sorcerers have enemy magic activation effects...... except for one in 1:40.

Rinoa is the only besides Squall to know the name Griever and she wanted her own copy of the ring, or her own version of the Griever Guardian Force.

Kitase actually backtracked his statement about the theory not being true - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/oZ6RpraC1Ni3nps.html

Very reasonable theory

the creators already said that it can't be but they are missing a goldmine story here. if rinoa is ultimecia, then square leaps out away from the cliche villain orgins.

If they make a remake of FF8, I would find it pretty interesting for Rinoa to be an Ultimecia (but in a different timeline. Like how FFVII’s remake is another timeline vs the FFVII original)

Supposed that's true if ultimecia is first rinoa in that timeline about squall died on space. Then the question is, why is they're going to space in the first place? The reason is rinoa was unconsciousness so squall take her into space to meet ellone and then finding out she was possessed by ultimecia. If it's true, then how ultimecia were existed in first place?

Maybe I'm a Lion

Gray hair and yellow eyes? Rinoa has been norted.

If it is true, it could explain why Seifer turns side so easily : he is loyal to Linoa.

I think this misses the point, Ultimecia exist as the realization of what Squall's wants at the start of the game and where that path leads. Trading friends for solitude and power. If Squall never opened up, he would become someone just like Ultimecia. Remember what happens to Squall at the end of the game? He tries to overcome the desert with nothing but his strength - to prove to Elone he can do it on his own. And it ends up damn near killing him.

I like the theory and I can see where it comes from but I’m afraid I have to be a contrarian. While Rinoa and Ultimecia do share some facial features, look at the eyes, not the colour but around their eyes the shape is completely different. Also if we leave out the eyes she shares some facial features with Quistis and Selphie as well as Edea. So using some very superficial similarities between maybe shouldn’t be taken into consideration. The other piece of evidence lies in the game itself. We all know it was extremely poorly translated to point it the systems confused a lot of people so we really shouldn’t use the english translation of the game for any sort of evidence. However there are somethings that do point to this theory being the case I will concede. Ultimately though I think it is a fun theory. Also FF8 is my favourite of all time, I know I’m probably alone in that but I don’t care. My point is I’ve thought through this game, including its themes and such, more than most.

But why square say ultimecia is not riona

Ultimecia is actually God and Rinoa is God's child Gian ✌

The Ultimecia is Rinoa theory destroys the masterpiece that is FFVIII as it doesn't make sense in a deeper level.

In the original Japanese version and certain translations , Ultimecia states that she is going to probe their minds and use their fears to destroy them. Hence Griever. There's no evidence that Griever is a real GF.

Griever is Angelo 😅 jkjk

I wish I could just believe some theories without knowing that they got debunked

This game finally made me stop hemming and cement FF8 as my fav final fantasy. This game is on par with Morrowind as greatest game story of all time.

The Canon story is what many of us theorized. Squall dies. Rinoa becomes highly emotional and susceptible to future influence. Time compression allows the possession of potential sorceresses of which Ultimecia is the only one ever to achieve it meaning she is the only being in existence in the future. Her memories are fragmented so badly having had squall junctioned to her for many centuries. Ultimecia and rinoa are NOT the same conscience however. Rinoa is the vessel but she still is from different time density.

You should drop the facial feature comparison. In the original version, Rinoa's face is not only similar to Ultimecia but also to Edea, Ellone, and Selphie. Moreover, Rinoa do not has widow peak like Ultimecia, Rinoa do not has pointy ears like Ultimecia. Their facial features in 3D models of remastered version as well as in Dissidia (both NT and OO) are different (for starter, Rinoa's face is rounder than Ultimecia's face), they also have different voice. Don't you think smart dog like Angelo would have notice if R=U from the smell? The Japanese version as well as Ultimania guide book released by Square Enix made it clear that Griever is newly created and Ultimecia create it by drawing from Squall's mind during that battle. Imo, R=U theory could sound more credible if it drop the deeply flawed facial feature sub-theory and the officially disproved Griever sub-theory. But........ In Dissidia Opera Omnia, Ultimecia reveal her background as lonely child at the edge of the future, born as an evil sorceress.

I love these videos because I never actually finished FF8 (just didn’t like Squall very much), so it’s interesting to hear how they might tie into the rest of the universe. I’ve always believed there would be a clever way to tie in all the games to the same world accurately (unlike 14, which does so dimensionally). I even had a fanfic planned that would use the main character of tactics advance to jump through time so you could see how everything tied together. Glad to see someone else is coming up with crazy theories!

There is no connection or evidence to imply this.

Nomura himself (he's the one that created the character) stated that Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia. He said this outright... and yet people keep telling this theory over and over 🤣 PS: if you want the source, I took it from the book "The Legend of Final Fantasy VIII" by Remi Lopez. Here they talk a ton about this theories.