Jacob was a bit off-putting. Jacob, on the other hand, did a great job. I think Jacob could take some pointers and lessons from Jacob.

Fascinating to look at it in a new way. Thanks

2:02:00 Isbel, there was persecution. Your claim would be less ridiculous if we had not been chased from New York to Ohio to Missouri, to Illinois before being chased out of Illinois. The persecution was happening long before Brigham Young was leading temple ordinances.

Jacob well done. You are a great debaters and clearly won.

The long bearded Jacob needs to talk to Chief Midegah of the Ojibwe about the temple. I think that would be very interesting. Also, where there not many things that the Prophets in the Book of Mormon commanded not to write? Just wondering if those things could be about the Temple and the Temple ceremonies. Just wondering.

Why did Cowles, Soby, and Marks oppose the revelation that was read by Hyrum in the 1843 High Council Meeting? Answer: this assertion about the sentiment expressed by Cowles, Soby, and Marks in the meeting was a recollection by Brighamite David Fullmer in a 1869 affidavit, and may not be reliable. The actual High Council Meeting minutes do not indicate anything about the nature of the revelation which was read, nor the sentiment of the High Council members.

Jacob Hansen...The photocopy you showed and stated was William Clayton's contemporary journal is actually a clean, edited, reproduction written much later by William Clayton...this is just like the Council of Fifty journal that was written later on and edited from various original, contemporary notebooks. The Council of Fifty original, contemporary notebooks are available for review. You can compare these to the later reproduction. When you compare the two you will find William Clayton had no problems with adding and altering things later on in the reproduced versions...

Isn't it interesting how most people who freak out over polygamy believe its fine for a man to sleep with two women at the same time. Married to two women at the same time, vile and disgusting, sleeping with two women at the same time, a perfectly legal and ethicle act between three consenting adults. I dont get it.

Joseph and I are laughing so hard right now 😂

Great Job Jacob Hansen! Hands down you are the winner!

Watched on ward radio, decent debate, clear that you won.

For the sake of argument, I think it’s interesting that Jacob Hansen continued to claim that Jacob Isbell was ignoring evidence while Hansen never quoted Joseph Smith once on the practice of plural marriage. As Isbell presented quotes by Joseph and Hyrum condemning the practice, Hansen then rebutted that Joseph taught or practiced it (or both) confidentially. It seems that Hansen is the one ignoring evidence. Also, if Joseph taught it confidentially or in private, and it was sanctioned by God, are there any records of having confidentiality or secrecy as part of the commandment? It seems that there would be for those who practiced it. There is no mention of having a commandment of secrecy even in the numerous affidavits produced decades later. Also, where, in all of the standard works did God “temporarily” command plural marriage? Did Section 132 include a timeframe of practicing, then not practicing it anywhere? Are there any records beginning from Joseph to Wilford Woodruff with the same confidentiality and time limit?

Jacob Hansen met his burden of proof. Multiple witnesses, including witnesses who were no longer friends, agreed.

Jacob definitely won. I just won't clarify WHICH Jacob. 😂

Congratulations on this fantastic display of why both of your points of view are absurd.

No lo he visto todo aún, me pareció un buen debate, súper necesario, ambas posturas defendidas por sus representantes, hay mucho que rescatar de allí.

Thank you, Jacob Hansen! This is such a serious deception-people are leaving the church over it.

It is clear who won the debate!!!! The first presenter!!!

In fairness - isbell didn’t do a good job at the “formal debate”. But there was much missed. Michelle stone will be a much better discussion. Looking forward to seeing t. As a tip, study Jacob 2. Jacob 2:30 isn’t a polygamy loophole - you have to use D&C132, but the BOM is not a text to support claims for polygamy.

1:48:30 Isbell you would not accept witnesses about Abraham. My evidence is your lack of accepting witnesses of Joseph Smith's polygamy.

21 minute mark. Yellow card on Isbell. His premise: D&C has very specific wording. Joseph never used that specific wording at any time, therefore Joseph didn't write D&C 132. It's a nice idea IF one can show Joseph was REQUIRED to use that exact phrasing much less had a specific instance in which he was obligated to so do. Without such evidence, the claim is purely speculative and built on an assumed preference for a correlation between phrases. There is no genuine reasoning or logic behind such a claim. Thus, 1. Hansen not explicitly using the wording is immaterial. 2. We do not have verbatim dictation of all words Joseph ever uttered to anyone, so it is impossible to sustain he NEVER used the phrasing. 3. The content of the revelation was not made public during Joseph's life, thus lending credibility to why there is no public record of him using the phrasing. However you look at it, the premise of a phrasing requirement has no merit. It is no more grounded in reason than to suggest that since I do not in this moment see the planet Mars with my eyes that Mars does not exist. With that as an opening salvo, the argument ends before it begins.

Though this was highly entertaining and I appreciate Ward Radio for organizing it, I don't care about a debates to establish a historical fact. This was interesting to see what "evidence" was presented.

2:11:00 Wow. So, Jacob Isbel said Abraham did not commit adultery when he made Ishmael and was not committing polygamy?! That is a dishonest redefining of adultery.

I get the weirdest vibe from Jacob Izbel…his testimony at the end was so odd and lacking of the spirit for me. I know that there are different spirits that people can be deceived by…I think he is honestly deceived…I have no other explanation for the weird feeling when he speaks.

"The Great Omission" is a book that offers a very interesting perspective on polygamy from a non-LDS perspective that is worth considering. In a nutshell, it explains that though there are equal boys and girls born, because of the dangerous jobs, war, prison ect... the number of good marriageable women to good men is much higher. A loving God would desire to provide the opportunity of marrying a GOOD man to all his daughters. There's much more in the book as well that goes through the biblical proofs of it.

I don't like the 'lawyer wannabee' feel of the conversation. Would be better to just discuss and be respectful IMHO.

The Church has to support Brigham Young to the detriment of Joseph Smith. If Brigham was exposed as the wicked man that he absolutely was what does that say about priesthood succession? The Church would have no more authority than any other Church. I love the Lord. I love the Book of Mormon. I love the Prophet Joseph Smith. I grew up in the Chicago area and I am a convert to the LDS Church. I was baptized on January 4, 1969, at the age of 12. On May 17, 1975, I baptized my father. He was my first baptism. One week later I entered the Mission field and served for two years in the Colorado Denver mission. My father in the meantime embraced the Church. He was active. He attended the Temple. He loved to teach. He taught adult Sunday School and for many years he taught the High Priests among other callings. For over 35 years no matter where I lived, we would talk every May 17th the anniversary of his baptism. That was a sacred day for both of us. In 2017 my dad died at the age of 92. For several years prior to his death, our May 17th phone calls ended as his baptism meant nothing to him. I was heartbroken! He even tried to convince me to leave the Church. So why did my father leave the Church? His departure began after reading Fawn Brodie’s book, “No Man Knows My History”. That started him on a reading frenzy that led him to conclude Joseph Smith was an adulterer and a wife stealing sexual predator saying one thing publicly while sneaking behind people’s back doing another thing privately. The LDS Church has never denied this! Of course, they do not use the words “adulterer” “sexual predator” or "liar". Instead, they use the legalese “carefully worded denials”. How sad it is that the Church supports Joseph’s infidelity and dishonesty, especially to his wife Emma. I believe Joseph Smith is an innocent man and has been horribly slandered and wrongfully convicted. Thank you, Jacob Isbell! Well done!

It's wild that everyone can receive truth from the holy ghost but what one person is told is in contradiction to another. This is a clear example. Jacob Isbell is the only one who bares a sincere testimony, he's more compelling for sure.

Jacob Hansen does such a good job of debunking this whole false claim that the debate is over after the first round! Anyone who persists is saying that plural marriage is not of God and wasn't introduced in this dispensation by Joseph Smith is completely deceived by Satan or is a liar, too. Sorry, that's just a fact.

Ezekiel 23 God compares the covenant relationship with both the Kingdom of Israel and that of Judah as a polygamist relationship with himself but that the two sisters are guilty of whoredoms. Needless to say, he still compared the covenant relationship he had as a polygamist relationship. The outcome wasn't so good, but that's not the point.

Cool discussion. Good to know that when my journal of my life is shared with my family after I’m dead, it will be dismissed because it’s too old?? I also think Bro. Isabel is giving way too much credence on a large scale conspiracy when they were in the midst of just surviving.

It seems like the fundamental problem was that Joseph Smith hid his polígamo because it was illegal in Illinois and it would have been seen as immoral. The D&C declaration about the church not practicing polygamy because it was illegal and immoral was a misdirect about what JS was doing in private.

Whats the reference for the Sidney Rigdon piece of your opening statement ?

I dont care . Why are you even sparring with this fast-talking schill .

Jacob Isabel has the contention and energy of those protestant preachers outside the conference center. 3 Nephi 11:29

Long beard wins. Truth shines through, even when short beard yells and tries to character assassinate in closing statement.

1:46:00 Wow. Isbell is wrong. Jesus Christ uses his church and chain of command in it. We do not really go to Jesus Christ without accepting those He sent.

Jacob Hansen...what you put up on your screen and told us was William Clayton's contemporary journal IS NOT William Clayton's personal journal!!! What you showed us WAS NOT A CONTEMPORARY JOURNAL! You all don't understand what you are even talking about! Only one person that I know of has ever been able to actually see William Clayton's original, personal journal (John Nutall) and what you showed us was not that! There are no photo copies of the actual pages of William Clayton's personal journal! Zero! You do NOT have copies of the pages of William Clayton's personal journal I guarantee it! No one does!!! It is another separate book all together, locked away deep in those secret vaults...hmmmm and I wonder why??? You do not know the full truth and have been told incomplete and false information and now believe the propaganda too... I can clearly show and clearly demonstrate that the page you put up was NOT written on May 1, 1843...Jacob Hansen I will debate you anytime...anywhere...

Why couldn't Joseph Smith deny he saw an angel, but could throw his supposed wives under the bus and lie about them? Makes no sense.

I am on the fence on this, so please keep debating and share you presentation if possible.

2:08:00. Wow. Rueben having sex with his father's wife was not caused by God authorizing polygamy.

It's interesting that Joseph Smith's involvement in polygamy starts very near the time he starts translating the book of Abraham.

I just watched it a second time. Jacob Hansen’s case is even more compelling than the first time I watched it.

1. Uh, why is this "debate" with someone who's not even a member, and the "evidence" is built entirely on a "strawman", that of "Polygamy denial"? Most of us who believe Joseph didn't practice Polygamy entirely ACCEPT the D&C 132 Revelation, the history on Polygamy etc. We entirely accept he practiced the "Sealing Ordinance", just not the "physical" ACT of Polygamy. Those ARE two different things, and it tee's me off that members of the church conflate the two and accept anti-mormon premises that falsely harm the church and Joseph, the biggest criticism other than sx related, that being he "lied" when he said he wasn't practicing Polygamy. Joseph didn't lie, because HE was ONLY practicing the Sealing Ordinance. Polygamy was a later fulfillment of the Law, the Commandment. Part of the problem with this history is "terms are mixed". Plural Marriage, Celestial Marriage, Polygamy, on and on. But a Plural Marriage doesn't automatically mean "Polygamy", a Sealing Ordinance doesn't automatically mean Polygamy, etc. Both Joseph and Emma swore to their deaths that THEY were the ONLY actual "Husband and Wife".... ALL of Joseph's other "Marriages" were ONLY the "Sealing Ordinance" or Celestial Plural Marriage as has been coined to further "clarify". Now, does this mean Joseph "didn't" do what was believed to be improper, who knows. But, I seem to recall a few years back a "Genetic study" done, of many if not all of Joseph's plural marriages or at least believed c's from such marriages there was ZERO evidence found that Joseph had any "c's" from his Plural Marriages. I mean, there's so much Jacob clearly doesn't know about this subject. 2. Why does Jacob keep stating the "strawman" that "the debate is over" if 132 was read into the Council Meeting? That fact doesn't prove AT ALL the "premise" of "Joseph Practicing Polygamy". I'm disappointed in Jacob Hansen, someone I normally respect in relation to his intellect. Sadly I'm disappointed in many these days who are supposed to be my intellectual and moral peers, believing absolute falsehoods. :( 3. So, Jacob H just finished his opening statement, and ZERO of it demonstrates "Joseph" actually "Practiced" the physical ACT of Polygamy. That's the Title of the video and the Debate. He ONLY showed that Joseph had "Marriage Sealings". Those aren't "Polygamy" and never have been. Again, I'm very disappointed.... and if Jacob has done this bad at the start, I worry about the rest. 4. BTW, I'm a convert, also went inactive and anti-mormon/anti-religion in my late teens early 20's primarily because of what I call my "big 3" issues with the church, and one of them was Polygamy. I had to actually understand it to come back, and I've argued with anti-mormons for near 30 years 100's of times, on each subject debunking their claims with the history and facts on every subject against the church, so I know this subject in detail. Anyway, I'll keep watching and see if I have any other thoughts. So far, Jacob is stating good facts, problem is they are being used to support a strawman. Of course likely not against the other Jacob in relation to his views, but that's not really helpful to us who DO believe, but just don't think the facts support Joseph practicing it. I'll keep watching as I can. 5. Alright... After watching all the main responses of each side it's clear BOTH are Right AND Wrong.... JH is right that Polygamy was commanded by God. JH is wrong that Joseph practiced it. JI is blind as a bat ignoring all the MASSIVE amounts of Evidence that the Sealing Ordinance and Polygamy was restored, the many many testimony's of various aspects and their own Sealings, as well as all the scriptures etc. about it all. JI is correct that Joseph didn't practice it while he was alive. He only started the Sealing Ordinance when it concerned himself (that the evidence shows). Now again, did he "consumate" any of those Sealings, unknown. 6. But another thing JI is right about is like I mentioned above, of the most suspected Genetic lines, they found ZERO evidence of any "C's" from such relationships if they in fact happened. I find that highly unlikely, but who knows, anything is possible. Both Emma and Joseph said it didn't happen, so I'll believe them over "assuming" that simply because the Commandment had come down, that Joseph went the full monty into Polygamy when it concerned himself. THAT is an assumption without good evidence other than the "filthy affair", but even NONE of her "lineage" are his, cause that was the big one they wanted to test. ZERO genetic evidence.... Joseph fathered any of the c's. 7. Oh, and JI is seriously off in neverland that "everyone" conspired against Joseph because they just "wanted to practice polygamy so bad". LOL Absolutely ZERO evidence of anything like that... 8. Completely FALSE.... God "gives" etc. Plural Marriage SEVERAL times in the Bible. Thus, it's clearly a "command". This guy acts exactly like Anti-Mormons.... Ignoring and Cherry Picking what he want's to believe instead of what the Scriptures actually say. Just go to FAIR and see all the scholarship which clearly lays out all the Biblical Evidence showing God "gave" Plural Marriage when he chose to. 9. The Bible clearly shows that "proper authority" is needed to do ANYTHING.... from Baptism, to giving the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost, to leading the Church, etc. There are MANY examples of this happening such as when those Baptized needed to get the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost, those who did the Baptizing didn't have the authority to give it. They had to wait for others to come who DID have that authority, aka KEYS. This doesn't mean there isn't a "spirit" that all men can access, there IS, but that's NOT "The Church", the one Christ set up. That is our "personal" guide in life to know good and evil, truth and falsehood. But when it comes to The Official Church of Christ, there is no tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, or someone's "personal view", there is God's revealed Truth system. Note also that Joseph did exactly what Christ did. The Church in that time was in Apostacy, so Christ set it up. "You can't poor New Wine in an old jar". Joseph did the same. Just because there is a "spirit", doesn't mean there isn't an organized and authoritative church with KEYS. Again, check FAIR for lot's of the evidence from the Bible on this. 10. The Nauvoo Temple WAS in fact Finished, at least enough to be "Dedicated", as well Ordinances WERE in fact done in it before they left it. Even Wikipedia tells these FACTS.... 11. And again we see more "classic Anti-Mormonism".... strawmen arguments. NOTHING when it concerns teaching "Doctrine" in the Temple Ordinances have "changed". There is no "Eternal Law" on "how" Ordinances are done. The best example of this, which btw is a "Temple type Ceremony" is the Sacrifice of Animals on an Alter.... Guess what, Christ said we no longer need to do that. OH MY>... Temple "Practices" were "changed". OH ME OH MY. LOL.... Anything and everything can change with the Temple, as long as Doctrines and precepts don't change. Which THEY HAVE NOT...!!! One last thing I think.... JI claims to be "following Joseph", but he clearly isn't following Joseph when it comes to "The Church" itself. I mean the Latter-day Restoration is without equivocation to where a person can't claim to be following the Restored Gospel and NOT also recognize the authoritative church Joseph through Visitations, the Key's given, set up. It just boggles my mind the "double mindedness", hypocrisy, and trying to have it both ways by JI....

Superchat = priestcraft 😂

This won’t be settled until you debate Michelle Stone. Make it happen!

My biggest concern with all this is that if we are to believe that the Lord ever commands polygamy, that means the value and worth of God's own daughters is put into question. This is because if we women are to believe that we are "given" and "taken" like so much property; that our value as wives is mostly for our wombs, this is devastating for us and can lead women to believe we are actually second class to men. How does polygamy honor women at all? It doesn't. It keeps men perpetual bachelors, always on the lookout for prettier, younger women to "marry". I notice this is not ever addressed. Don't you realize what you're saying? If Joseph Smith indeed practiced polygamy, that means he lied to thousands of his own people, cheated on his wife Emma, and that God upheld his doing this. It means that the God we worship doesn't really care about the tender hearts of his daughters---that the speech in Jacob 2 about that subject means zero if He should decide one fine day that he wants men to take multiple wives and concubines. It means that concubines, which are female slaves that have sex with the master, is okay even in an eternal sense. Why aren't the women considered in this argument? Jacob Hansen, do you actually believe that women are this under valued? Until I discovered that Joseph never did live polygamy, I assumed that this life was the ONLY time I got to be really happy, married to the love of my life. But in the next world, if I am righteous, I must share him with a bunch of other women, in effect, I will be punished for being righteous. It's either that or go to a lower kingdom. So women really have no chance in the eternities to be happy even if they are righteous. Take that subject on please.

the word for multiplying wifes refer to multiply in excess ,, like a flood . salomon could be accused of that but the lord never reproach him or anyone of having many wifes. hey , even the lord represent himse;lf as having 2 wifes: jerusalem and samaria.

Bigamy Rocks but Polygamy absolutely Kicks Ass!

POLYG'AMY, noun [Gr. many, and marriage.] A plurality of wives or husbands at the same time; or the having of such plurality. When a man has more wives than one, or a woman more husbands than one, at the same time, the offender is punishable for polygamy Such is the fact in christian countries. But polygamy is allowed in some countries, as in Turkey. 1828 Webster's Definition. Back to some of this guys claims... "3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." Genesis 16:3 The Bbile dun dar did say it was a wife type thingy... Married to 2 women makes it a plurality... That means it was polygamy. But, he has hot air to spew...

Just wait till Jacob Isbell finds out how long after Christ’s death the gospels were written… if 7 years is too long for something to be true about Joseph Smith I guess we should remove almost all of canonized works.

More support for 132... 7 ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12:7-9

So the mormon god quit polygamy and moved out of the Kolob System??? What happened to the Heavenly Mothers?

This a good demo as to why polygamy deniers are classified along with flat earthers and not taken seriously by the historical community.

I've had a great spiritual witness of 132. Second dude is lying.

Why do we even waste time in the conversation if he did so what if he didn't so what study polygamy and you will see nothing wrong with it in fact we would still be doing it if the gadianton government wasn't allowed to rise above us period so people lose thier heads over the subject but why put your time into something productive

Joseph wouldn’t lie was Izbel’s only argument. It was pathetic.

Jacob Hansen is the GOAT on the debate! ❤🎉😊

The dude arguing that Joseph was not a polygamist and did not endorse polygamy sounds like one of those infomercial peeps. Sales more than facts.

Who will be concubines? 132 says god justifies them and did for David and Solomon even though in the BofM he condemns it. But who will be the concubines if God thinks polygamy and concubinage are good and from him? Do you think that’s the eternal destiny of one of your daughters because I don’t think it is for one of mine.

I'm coming from the side that I believe we did practice polygamy. This argument over 132 is as not as strong an argument as Hansen thinks. Could BY over a number of years crafted the release of the revelation supporting polygamy, sure. But there is so much evidence from other women (just read In Sacred Lonliness by Todd Compton, professor at UCLA) it's not even a question that Joseph practiced Polygamy. Isbell is just in denial. We can argue I guess if Polygamy was ever REALLY a spiritual doctrine of God, I choose to keep that up on the shelf, but Joseph Smith definintly practiced Polygamy. One interesting argument Isbell made was interesting regarding "where are the offspring" and that is a good point. The real question is how many of his spiritual wives did Joseph have versus the polygamy practiced by Brigham Young. Many believe Joseph did not consumate these relationships though of course you have some statements from one or two wives that claim he did. Reality is it's probably somewhere in the middle. Other then Fanny, I highly doubt Joseph has sexual relationships with many of these women. I doubt the subject of other children would have gone over well with Emma. The Fanny Algier situation is something though that puts doubt in the idea that it was 100% spiritual wifery versus polygamy. In a court of law I think Jacob Isbell would be on shaky ground, he'd lose the case. As for the debate, in a cross, interuppting the person you are asking questions every 5 seconds isn't kosher.

These debates are so useless. Good for generating heat, not light. Every side looking for gotchas and no one changes their mind.

give isbell 1king 15 verse 5. this answer that david who had multiple wife was just and polygamy was a law from god. helaman 3 ,30, if abraham is sitting on the right of god as a just man ,abraham didnt sin or commit abomination in the eyes of god by having multiple wifes... same with the other men ,tribes that had multiple wifes. and god do give women in marriage in scripture see 2 samuel 12 verse 8

😁😁😁😁 people with no argument always attack their opponent instead or arguing the subject. isbel have no argument.

The Kinderhook plate basically sums it all up. Liars lie - and wed children. Joseph and Brigham have their rewards.

Of course he did.... somewhere between 30 & 44 ! several 14 years of age plus married women whose husbands were sent on 'missions' !!!!

Jacob Hansen, absolutely weak as water. I find it amazing that members believe enemies of Joseph before they believe a man they acknowledge as a Prophet. Smoke and Mirrors totally unconvincing. As Joseph said himself, there is no salvation in believing evil reports about a man.

The facts are on Isbell's but he's not the best spokesman. He gets too emotional and doesn't dissect Hansen's arguments, which are pretty weak. Hansen is much more cool-headed, although his argument basically boils down to "are you really saying that all of these people were lying??" which is really, really weak.

Jacob Hansen is a good dude who needs to consider whether whether his heart for his ancestors is worth his eternal soul. Other Jacob is a super troubled dude, obviously, but once he gets his haircut fixed we can work on epistemological basics and reason and its uses. These guys show the Catholicism is true!