@Scotland Heating & Air Conditioning LLC: Thank you, sir! This is not to say I have never used M-o-M on projects. I have used them successfully. That switchable orifice is very handy in helping to balance systems. However, it appears to me that you want to provide the best value for your customers and loath call-backs! If an individual homeowner wants to chance buying and using an M-o-M, no harm done. They do work. But we as professionals must hold ourselves to a higher standard. I know from personal experience that Gorton stands behind their products. I've never tried, so I don't know one way or the other, about M-o-M's warranty response.

You're welcome! Hope the #6 isn't too much venting. Remember to try to upgrade your main venting in the basement.

@@gordonschweizer5154 I don't have a say what goes on in the basement! But my room is a cold room, so I think 6 will be okay. Question, though: I just boiled two Hoffman stem vents (I had to throw the older one away - I could blow through it whether I turned it upside down or not - and a new one was okay), but they both turned mostly orange after boiling for 40 or so minutes, approx 50% vinegar and 50% water. What do you think of that?

@@JerusalemBladeTrue The brown color might be copper leaching out of the brass? Or iron sludge deposited from inside the vent. I usually just soak the vents in full (5%) white vinegar overnight at the longest. More then that and undesireable side reactions start occurring (iron plating out, green corrosion).

@@gordonschweizer5154 Thanks - it looks like the copper. Should I just throw the Hoffman out - it looks like 75% copper on the outside, probably inside also.

@@JerusalemBladeTrue The acetic acid may have just stripped the plating off. The vent might work.

You're welcome! Maybe you know someone who has steam radiators. If you do, please let them know about these videos. Thanks!

You all prolly dont care at all but does someone know a way to log back into an Instagram account..? I was stupid forgot my account password. I love any assistance you can give me!

@Andres Kristopher instablaster =)

@Nelson Briar thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site through google and I'm waiting for the hacking stuff now. Takes a while so I will get back to you later with my results.

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@Andres Kristopher happy to help :)

Yes! Isn't maddening when that happens? The crimping construction (and rubber gasket to seal), as well as the plastic innards just about put the Maid-o-Mist vents in the "junk" category. Made-o-sh!# is more like it. Their only saving grace are their interchangeable orifices.

You are most welcome! Question for you... What main vents do you have? A #6 is a fairly large vent for most radiators in most situations. Thank you and stay warm!

@@gordonschweizer5154 ill have to check my main vent and ill let you know. I was suggested by gorton technician to put no 5 and no 6 and no c in different rooms on second floor. But i just went with all no. 6.

@@potterh2300harry OK. The main thing is, is if it all works for you, well and good. If your radiators all heat up with no spitting vents and banging...good! If they all heat up evenly...great! Be prepared to do some vent switching around to get what you desire.

@@elgordo271 the vent i found in the basement seems to be a cheap one. I am not sure what number that is. Its in a hard to reach location. The vent seems to leak water/steam because i saw moisture when i turned on the head today. It also seems to rot the wood surrounding the vent. is that normal? should i change it to a gorton no. 5 (according to their home map)? BTW the second floor radiators are working great now no leaking water. Again thanks for your willingness to help.

@@potterh2300harry Any leaking steam vent should be changed as soon as you can! Leaking steam vents insidiously destroy boilers! That warning should be stamped on every vent, IMHO. So, now to your situation... on steam main piping, in general, the biggest vent you can fit is best. A #5 is for venting radiators. It is very seldom big enough for steam mains. The general overall strategy is to vent the main pipes as quickly as possible and vent the radiators slowly. A Gorton #1 should be considered at a minimum. In polite difference to my friends at Gorton, the radiators location has scant bearing on the size of the vent used. The radiator's size and how quickly or slowly you want it to heat is more germane. Remember, if you can vent the mains quickly (that's where most of the evil air is), then it is much easier and more successful to balance the overall system with smaller radiator vents.

I would maybe try the M-o-M #4, their smallest vent. The #6 is usually too large in most cases on any radiator. It sounds like the apartment is overfiring the boiler.

@@gordonschweizer5154 Thank you. I’ll try that the #4 , and mention the overfiring possibility.

Thanks! I hope you can fit the Gorton #2. Those vents are amazing at getting rid of air from the steam mains and thereby getting heat evenly to your radiators.

gorton also makes a smaller vent with the same construction "gorton #1" one thing to be careful of ,if you vent the air too fast you may end up with more water in your pipes. there is a balance where the steam heats the pipe as the steam travels in the pipe and minimizes water accumulation from the steam condensing. too much water could increase water hammering

@@gordonschweizer5154 Is it best practice to use a larger vent on the long main and a smaller vent on the shorter main? Could I run into a problem if I use the same vent size for both mains?

@@Ldall87 Usually we attempt to get the steam to reach the ends of the mains at roughly the same time. Each system has its own personality, so it is possible that the same size vent on each end will achieve that very broad goal. But even if its a few minutes difference in time to the ends, you should not run into a problem. Give it a go.

Glad you liked it!

Thanks for watching!

Thank you for your questions. I think it might be best to take pictures of your system, the vents in question, the plugs, the piping around your boiler, etc and post your concerns on www.heatinghelp.com. Whereabouts are you, may I ask?

You're welcome! Some would say the Gorton's are overpriced, while others would say that Maid-O-Mist cut too many corners. I'm of the latter group. I've used both and will in the future, but I prefer Gortons. The Maid-O-Mist switchable orifices is an idea that I wish Gorton would do.

Indeed! The Gortons are well constructed and just about the longest-lasting vents out there. The folks at Gorton are great to deal with and back their products to the hilt.

The numbers are more or less indicators of how much the vent can vent. For Gorton, the #4 is the smallest hole and therefore the slowest vent. The #5 is the next size up, and the #6 is the biggest holed vent I'd recommend for a large, stand-alone radiator that needs more venting. Gorton makes bigger holed vents, "C" and the largest "D", but they are too big and sometimes cause more issues than they solve.

Yes, you are on the right track. I would add another test: turn the vent upside down and then blow into it. It should not pass air. Flip it right side up, and it should pass air again. Is there any water hammer in that radiator? Ask your resident also if there is over-heating of that radiator and what they do about it.

As a homeowner, I'd certainly give that a go. The alternative is to scrap them, so you have little to loose to try to get them to work with the vineger treatment.

Thanks! There are numerous reasons why a radiator is stubbornly colder than the rest. Start in the basement. Is your steam mains piping venting the best you can make it? Small or no main vents are the cause of many steam issues. Are your steam mains insulated? Is your boiler water clean? Is the near boiler piping close to what is should be? Is your boiler sized for the load? Is your gas service getting the boiler it's BTUs? Next, look at the system as a whole. Are there radiators that overheat? Is your t-stat "set" for steam? Is there hammering just before that cold radiator starts heating? Adding a bigger vent to a cold radiator might do the trick, or it might cover up other underlying issues best faced head-on.

Totally get what you are saying. I believe I do point out in the video the usefulness of the interchangeable orifices on the MoM, but not to your degree, and I thank you for that. As professional, I dont use these anymore because of their higher than average failure rate and call-backs are costly. Also, for tenant situations in larger apartments, they might not be the best vent to use. Some have suggested using the cost effective MoM's to dial in the air balance, then replacing them with the appropriate non-adjustable but generally higher quality Gortons or even the Vent Rite adjustables.

Vairvalves offer the same ability to adjust and can do so on the fly making them superior.

Thank you for your kind works. What you might be hearing is the vacuum formed when the steam is condensing drawing in the air back into your system. The cast iron beast is breathing. If I may be so bold as to suggest adding main vents to the piping in the basement. The "C" is pretty aggressive in venting air from radiators, not always to your good in the long run. The strategy is to vent the mains quickly and *then* vent the radiators slowly - if possible... Of course I don't know your unique situation at all.

@@gordonschweizer5154 Gordon, your videos have been helpful in helping troubleshoot my dads boiler! Thank you. I understand balancing the radiator vents but what is the benefit of venting the radiators as slowly as possible?

@@Ldall87 If I said " as slowly as possible" then I misspoke. I would say "fairly slowly" instead. The issue is radiators are designed to squeeze the energy out of the steam and turn it into heat very quickly, and thereby dump a lot of water back down through the radiator valve. Too much venting (in general) can create too much water for the valve to handle and cause gurgling, spitting vents, water hammer, and a radiator heating poorly- the very opposite of what is desired. The trick is to find that balance. Enough venting to allow the radiator to heat the space the radiator is in, but not so much as to choke off the steam trying to come in with the water flowing out. That's partly why main venting is so important. Get rid of most of the air first, then your can tweak the radiator venting with better results.

I would screw the orifice plate thingy all the way down snug.

A Gorton #2 has a 1/2" male NPT end. The smaller Gorton #1 has a 3/4" male and a 1/2" female NPT.

My best advice would be to insist that the steam mains in the basement be vented with a gang of Gorton #2s to get the steam to your radiator run-outs as quickly as possible. Any other advice as to the venting of your radiators without that being assured is a folly on my part.

You definitely have a head-scratcher there and I'm not going to even pretend to have THE answer. I going to assume the radiator in question does not hammer or even gurgle or there is no puff puff puff at the vent. I am assuming the radiator is pitched towards the shut-off valve and said valve is fully open. I am assuming that the run-out to said radiator is properly pitched and not undersized for the radiator. I am assuming that said run-out is insulated. I am assuming that your pressure does not exceed 2 psi, and that your boiler is not over-sized or over-fired. I am assuming that your boiler's water is clean (relatively) and "wet steam" is not being produced. I don't know if a Gorton #4 vent would work better or not ( they appear to be built better, and cost more than M-o-M). You may try a Vent-Rite #1 adjustable turned way down to below a #4. Heck, you could even try a Hoffman #70 vent. They are very very very slow and are outrageously over-priced.

Totally agree! The Hoffman #75 is essentially scrap, no reason to ever buy one. The Gorton #1 is far superior to it, never mind the Gorton #2!

@@elgordo271 and here I thought that the Hoffman 75's were the best main vents you could buy for a steam boiler! I seriously thought that they had more capacity! The contractor I work for was always installing the Gorton #1's and I always wondered why?

@@10314347 Yes, once upon a time Hoffman #75s were good vents overall. But awhile ago they stopped painting them green and around about that time I started noticing they didn't seem to last through a season before failing open. And they vent about the same but cost more than a Gorton#1.

That might work... But, the main issue would be clearances to install.

Clearances would not be an issue. My question is whether there might be some functional benefit to having a straight stem for better condensate drainage out of the vent body. I installed the Maid O’Mist vents just last year and I’ve found several to be stuck closed occasionally. I’m going to replace them all with Gortons.

If clearances are not an issue, there is no harm in trying your idea. I have no experience if what you propose will help your issue or not. The vents, even M-o-M in ordinary situations, should not have much water in them. It may be that there are other issues. Do you have enough main venting? Are your main pipes in the basement insulated? Is your near boiler piping to manufacturer's specs? Is your boiler water reasonably clean? Is your system pressure low? Is there water hammer? Gurgling in the pipes? Radiators pitched properly? Radiator valves the proper type and fully opened? The reason I ask is these and other reasons will cause "wet steam" and that may be causing your vents to fail prematurely.

Ok, thanks, Gordon. I believe I’m ok with the possible concerns you listed. I replaced Hoffman 1A vents last year with the M-o-M only in order to more easily experiment with the orifice settings. I believe the M-o-M failures are due to little other than poor quality vent materials. I might run my question by Gorton and see whether they think there might be any benefit to using their straight vents over the angle type.

We have not installed any of the six so far as they were purchased for re-stock invantory. They were bought thru SupplyHouseDOTcom. I've heard the "you're the only one who has complained" a few too many times in my life to suspect that they are blowing smoke up your hu-ha.

Greetings and you are most welcome for your kind words & support. That's a big radiator for sure! Is it a wall hung? Is it a one-pipe steam system? Are you having issues in heating it? Does it knock & thunk before it gets hot? What vent is on it now? If the main venting "up to snuff", that is to say, do you have the biggest vents you can put on the steam mains? What pressure does the system run at? In general, the best vent is the smallest vent that allows the steam to heat the radiator with little or no noise or result in spitting or loudly hissing vents. The foundation for this desirable aim is to have large vents in the basement and the lowest pressure that gets the job done.

Good evening, I did not think I got through. LOL It is a stand alone steam radiator one pipe system. I have a Maid-O- Mist #5, 1/8 in angle vent on it. Only two or three of the columns warm up leaving 10 columns ice cold. There is no thumping or clanking sounds. This one's in the main floor living room, pretty close to the thermostat, I just had a new boiler installed for $40,000. You can imagine how peeved I am when the dining room and living room rads did not warm up. Hence my email to you inquiring about the importance of the appropriate size vents. Thanks for returning my query!!

@@cathyschotchenko8106 I'll going to make some assumptions: (1) The new boiler was sized correctly - If not, there's not enough steam to go around. (2) The boiler was piped correctly - If not, the piping may be producing "wet" steam which doesn't heat well. (3) The new boiler was cleaned correctly - If not, see above. (4) The radiator in question worked before and now it doesn't. If you truely vent a radiator & it still does not heat well, it's usually *not* a venting problem. Did the installers ask about issues you had before the install? A new boiler often does not fix pre-exsisting problems with the piping system.

I'm gonna give a qualified answer "yes, but... " It's generally not such a good idea to over-vent a radiator. If you appear to need that much venting on a radiator to get it to heat adequately, usually it's not a venting problem at the radiator. Maybe the vents on the steam mains in the basement are lacking. Maybe there is no insulation on the mains and your basement is getting all the heat. Maybe the radiator supply piping is off pitch and has a water pocket. Maybe the boiler is undersized, underfired, or has a hole in it at the waterline blowing steam up the chimney instead of toward that "problem" radiator.

Gordon Schweizer thank you so much for that information. I can rule out all the potential issues you mentioned except that indeed the mains are not insulated. That very well may be my issue. Thought a boiler having a hole and blowing steam out the chimney, how can I rule that out? Check for steam coming out of the chimney?

Dear Link, you are most welcome. One way to start to suspect if there is a hole in the boiler is unexplained excessive water consumption. If you have an automatic water feeder, how often it is feeding? More than once per month and there is possibly a leak somewhere. If that gives a positive indication, a definitive test is to shut the boiler down and to add water slowly to the boiler manually until it is above the top sight glass fitting. Any leak will appear within 15 min or less as water dribbling onto the floor or firebox. If that is not the cause of water loss, buried wet returns are always a favorite. Also, check for loose valve packing nuts, or leaking union nuts. Hot hissing vents are the slow death of any steam boiler. I do hope for you that this test proves negative! Adding good fiberglass insulation on the mains in the basement is an outstanding way to improve your comfort overall. Most folks report back to me when they add steam pipe insulation two things: (1) The basement is definitely cooler. (2) They wish they had done it sooner.

Gordon Schweizer ok got it. So basically add water manually till the sight glass is coming back completely full? Or a little beyond full? Essentially filling up the boiler to the top correct so if there are any holes water would leak out. Also is there a way I can confirm whether or not I have a buried wet return line?

Sort of reminds me of scoring in tennis.... "15 love". Wait What?

Yes, that does happen now and then & it is frustrating when it does. I hope they made good on the defective items, yes?

@@gordonschweizer5154 Well I sent them back for a refund but needed new vents that day so I had to settle for maid o mist vents that I bought locally. The body on one of them has since developed a hairline crack that let's a trace amount of steam escape.

It seems that with M-0-M, you need to buy two. One to use and one to lose.

Thanks!

It that air coming out or is it steam? What size is the vent orifice....D, C, 6 ?

@@gordonschweizer5154 it's hot air but very moist. Coming out very strong and very hot. The air vent is definitely failing. It's a 2" riser pipe with a 1/2" to 1/8" converter with a maid o mist on top. It says on the part Maid O Mist Air Valve 12 PAT No. 2400297. It's been there for 3 years. Should I replace with something like a hoffman 75?

@@mikeycoogs105 From what you say, it sounds like that vent has had it and needs to be replaced. If you can, have the firing rate of the boiler checked to make sure it's within spec. Make sure your main steam vents are big enough and make sure you are not making too much pressure (Pressuretrol set too high? Pigtail clogged?) These may help you new vent last longer.

Thank you for your response. I'm on the 6th floor of a 36 unit apt building. Was hoping to solve this on my own but sounds like I need to get the super involved. I think he's the one that put the valve on so he may not understand this much. Will try and check the boiler with him.

@@mikeycoogs105 I wish you good fortune. I suspect, however that your super is not going to pay the slightest attention to what some clown on KZfaq (me) says about lowering steam pressure from the outrageous pressure it might be now (anything above 2 psi).

You're welcome! Do you have just the one steam main? I would use the Gorton #2 and maybe gang up two or more if they fit. Properly venting the main can make a major difference in how evenly a system heats up. I trust also your mains are insulated

@@gordonschweizer5154 Thanks for the reply. I have one steam main and I didn't know the pipe had to be insulated. What does that consist of?

@@Mikegee63 Fiberglass pipe insulation designed for the pipe size. That's a whole other topic and trade.

@@gordonschweizer5154 Thanks. For some reason KZfaq isn't notifying me when you respond to me. I also forgot to mention that the main floor of my house has 3 wall recessed cast iron connvectors in the living room and dining room and a free standing radiator in the entryway and kitchen. The 2nd floor has free standing radiators in the bedrooms and bathrooms. I'm pretty sure they're all original house. The main reason I mentioned the convectors is because I watched a video where they stated that they were using g a Hoffman 45 on the steam main because the house had convectors instead of free standing radiators. Could those convectors be the reason why I have the Hoffman 45 on my steam main?

@@Mikegee63 If I understand you correctly, you're saying you have a Hoffman #45 as your main venting in your basement? Maybe it's a #4A "Quick Vent"? If so, they are way way too small!

Have I encountered this, you ask? Aye, for half my life, and I remember Eisenhower being President. It has been a trend for decades for them (whoever they are) to take quality old school American brands our ancestors spent their lives building up and selling off those proud brands to (fill in the blank). As far as I know, Gorton is the only radiator vent that is entirely made in the USA and does not have any rubber or plastic innards.

@@gordonschweizer5154 haha! Very true indeed. I’m just wondering if the ITT hoffman valves, made in Taiwan that has “ventor” written on it, the same quality as the current bell gossett ones which are heavier. I requested a hoffman valve from my landlord and the super installed this ventor itt hoffman valve in my radiator that works. I was so shocked at how light it was. Wondering if it’s worth returning and purchasing the bell gossett hoffman. Super said he could try do that. Or is they no guarantee w these hoffman valves.

@@msdivine As far as I know, Bell & Gosset, Hoffman, McDonnell & Miller etc are all part of one big happy (corporate shell) family. I personally cannot speak as to the quality of this particular Hoffman or that sigular B&G vent. I simply don't know. I have received reports, however, from others on this channel that the Tie-wonese Hoffman's are not good, sad to say. If you search on eBay, you may come across new old stock gen-u-wine USA Hoffmans.

@@gordonschweizer5154 thank you. I checked ebay, and I have seen vintage ITT hoffman valves listed. Upon looking closer, I see it’s made in Taiwan not USA. I long for the days of quality old school American brands but that seems like a distant world at this point. Maybe i should try gortons in my radiators next time.

@@msdivine [Sigh] Indeed! I think pre-ITT Hoffman's do show up upon occasion, but I would worry that they have been sitting on the shelf for so long that the magic fluid has bled away. We stopped buying surplus Hoffman 75s because they didn't last. But we would sometimes find old old stock Hoffman #40 (so old they had the policeman logo & the words "watchman of the coal pile" on the package) and they would still work.

I'm not such a vent snob that I never ever use Maid of Mist, but I wonder if it's main advantage, the vaunted variable vent, is one of its major weaknesses. Consider, if you will, that in order for the vent to work under all conditions, particularly in size C and above, the internal seat construction must be oversized. I would posit that this would allow debris to be more likely to get stuck and imbed in the plastic, permanently ruining the vent. Sometimes residents like to get more heat by removing the orifice. That extra humidity from the leaking steam is seen as a plus.

Gordon Schweizer well I don’t have any tenants in my house...but the design is such that the bent still closes even with the orifice removed-it just vents really fast that way LOL . Thanks again!

You can use the Maid-o-Mists to get your system balanced, then replace them with Gortons as they fail, because they use the same sizing conventions. You'll notice the difference. The Maid-o-Mists tend to fail within 2-3 years. I've dissected quite a few, but still don't know exactly what causes it, but they start leaking even when fully closed, and no attempts at cleaning the valve seat ever succeed in restoring the seal.

Thank you! As to my thoughts on "assembled in the USA" (of globally sourced materials, naturally), it is a trend that covers many of the items in our daily life. It is better than the "made in the middle kingdom" label, but only just.

@@gordonschweizer5154 Thanks for the reply. So it's still "made in USA" but it's the material that's outsourced? I was thinking more in the line that main components are premade somewhere, for example the all important bellows assembly, and then the finished product assembled here in the US. If so I'm thinking the quality will suffer. I bring up the subject since I just got a batch of Hoffman 40s to use and have as spares. So far three are no good. They seem to be working at first but eventually start spewing steam out the top. I notice when I shake the new ones that the element inside seems to be smaller than the old if that means anything.

I am not going to gainsay what you have said.

Just a followup, all 6 of the "assembled in USA" Hoffman 40s I just got all test bad, steam pours out the top. I spent the extra money to get "genuine Hoffmans" not the cheap look alikes but apparently Hoffman quality is not what it was. Luckily I have old ITT Hoffmans on hand and I'm able to rejuvenate some with the boiling water treatment. I'll be going with Gortons from now on.

@@kenqwe04 Damn! Ain't that some shyte. I just bought 6 Hoffmans too as restock. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Do you have vents on your steam mains in the basement?

@@gordonschweizer5154 Yes I do. Just one. Replaced that also. This rad is towards the end of the line or return of a signal pipe system. Its the highest rad of the house and gets the hottest and works the best. Should I use the D or go smaller then the C thats in there.

@@richconstantino8485 It sounds like you might try a smaller vent. Try a #5. What main steam vent do you have?

@@gordonschweizer5154 Huffman 75 on the main. I'll try the #5. Don't have any. Will get on tomorrow. Stuck doing 3rd grade math all day. Working with steam is simpler with the way they teach nowadays.

"Hooray for New Math" lol. I would strongly consider getting a Gorton #2 to replace that #75. Mo' venting mo' betta (for mains, at least) Then you can vent the radiators more slowly. No hissing, no spitting and more even heat.

Do you mean remove radiator *vents*? Not sure what you mean by "in the poles"?

@@gordonschweizer5154 thank you so much for your prompt response! This is a serious matter for me & I need help. I am on the Top Floor in an apt bldg & in each room I have the old-fashioned steam radiators on the floor and each radiator has a heat pole attached to it that runs through the other apts in the building as well. I am trying to replace the round metal air vent steam valve on each radiator and each Pole.

I'm sorry. I don't understand. Do you mean "vents" or do you mean "valves"? There are big important differences between them. What do you mean by "poles"? Are you perhaps referring to "pipes"? Where do these "poles" or "pipes" go if you are on the Top Floor? That does not make sense unless your building has the "Mills System" type of steam piping. Why do you need to replace what you need to replace? Vents? or Valves? Again, I am very confused by your questions. It is not a good idea to replace either vents or valves without shutting down the boiler, and that means you will need to inform the management of your apartment of your problem. Do you have a superintendent working for your apartment? I cannot help you from here.

@@gordonschweizer5154 thank you, they are the round silver-colored Vents, like Gorton brand, etc. Here is a link with photos. Sorry I dont know the plumber lingo :) thank you! www.supplyhouse.com/Gorton-G6A-Gorton-No-6-Angle-Vapor-Equalizing-Valve-3531000-p

Ok, so they are vents and they are hissing/spitting water and steam?

Try us at allsteamedupATverizonDOTnet.

I really can't blame you. I get it. Hope you stay warm (but not too warm!)