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4:32 Ahh yes the "Did the devs actually play their game?" problem. Sometimes it feels like you run into these issues because the developers aren't actually dogfooding the game the players will play. Instead if feels like they play with the debug console always on.

The weapon limitations are probably there because this game has co-op multiplayer. It forces players to specialize. But yeah, it makes no sense in single player.

If I remember correctly Dark Messiah of Might & Magic also had a system where you had to put weapons, spells and potions into the quickbar to be able to use them. But it worked because the quickbar didn't care about the size of the weapon or item. A potion needed one slot, the two handed sword or the bow also just needed one slot. You could actually equip 10 different things.

The combat would have worked a whole lot better IMO if they took inspiration from Undying: magic with one hand, weapons in the other, letting you dual wield both options.

Appriciate the honesty with this one. If you actually don't think the game is worth recommending, than you don't take a sponsorship. Respect that!

I mean, it feels like if they added a map system, fixed the inventory so it actually functions like a shooter and made it so reloading a save didn't return you to the hub, the game would actually be pretty decent. Those all feel like patchable things so I hope they do that, though it feels like stuff that should've been figured out for a 1.0 release.

Kudos for knowing when to give up. As I've gotten older, I've gotten better myself at letting go when things just don't resonate strongly enough. I'll be keeping an eye on this after some patching, as I usually do for new releases anyway. Thanks mayo

Didn't expect you to spend this much time with it , the reason I gave up on the game is cause it's super mixed . I encountered multiple bugs especially with softlocking . I really hope they fix the bugs , inventory , stamina and assign a key for the portions , if they do that I'll go in and finish the game . Great review man , I would honestly recommend the DLC for Amid Evil called Black Labrinth any day over this .

I’ll agree with two of your criticisms of this game. The no map and the not restarting at a saved area, everything else though? crouch jumping is such a common boomer shooter mechanic. I’m all for graven believing players are smart enough to figure things out on their own without holding your hand on every little aspect. It’s refreshing not to have a single tutorial honestly.

That's a real shame. As someone who loves the Heretic and Hexen games, I was really excited for Graven. But now, after learning about the issues that the game has, I'm now thinking that I should've waited for the reviews before buying it. (Sigh) Oh well!

Can't you still do a sponsored video while being honest about the game? Just let the developer/publisher know ahead of time you won't hold back and if they give the green light, go for it. Hate for you to turn down money simply because you can't recommend the game.

Thanks for doing this. Graven is a game I have wanted to like for a long time but the longtime unpatched bugs at release and downright confusing game design elements did make me put the game down after a while. That being said, the game looks and sounds amazing and the map design is peak. I hope that your video helps the devs move away from some of their design choices.

I hope they bring a patch game. Where they fix all of the issues here, and to make the gameplay better. Graven looks very nice, but it's a shame that three years of development it gave us some problems.

I remember playing through the early access version and getting bored about an hour in. I was hoping that the full release would be a major improvement over the previous state, but sadly it seems that this is not the case. Too bad, there were some cool things about this game.

Just bought the game before 1.0, yeah, the inventory seems annoying but something they can fix with a patch

In Early Access the game had a map but it was broken and would reset every time you closed the game, guess they couldn't fix it and just removed the map feature

Did you get early access to the 1.0 update that comes out on the 23rd or is this the early access version? I notice you didn't mention that update at all, I'm curious if it'll have fixes for any of your major gripes here.

Yeah no map is also a dealbreaker for me…how can you not have a map in a game that rewards exploration and backtracking? Shame too, I love the aesthetic. Maybe I’ll grab it if they confirm it’s added in a future update

I hope Wrath is still good once its finished.

I make every word that Mayo said in this video about Graven, my words, I agree with everything (I speak from my experience with the game). I played the demo in 2021 for two days thinking it would have a similar vibe to Heretic and Hexen, I was wrong. The game save is annoying and tiring, I left the game never to play again.

very well done video, very informative.

Are you going to do a review on the new ultrakill violence level?

Heard about release version being around, was waiting for review videos starting to pop up! Sad you didn't like it, but also not surprised somehow - the game had some issues even during the demo phase.

oh, man... i think i'll wait for a patch to fix all these issues before i start playing :(

Amid Evil exists. A near perfect 10/10 action packed shooter with amazing level design and an incredible, diverse (all useful) arsenal of weapons. If you can push past your medieval aesthetic aversion to play this game, then you 100% owe it to yourself to play Amid Evil. It's far and away my favorite of the boomer shooter genre. I'll just keep saying it and hoping it ends up here some day--one of my favorite gaming channels. Bummed about all these Graven issues. I always thought this game looked fun, but I have no interest in playing a game that goes out of its way to force me in to unfun and tedious situations. The backtracking from the hub sans map is a definite deal breaker for me. Maybe it'll get an overhaul?

Hey there, I have a couple of answers to your questions. When the game popped out on steam it got a trailer that showed a slow meticulous game about magic, casting spells multitude of rituals and so on, very early on they changed almost all spells to look like guns and for some reason took a lot of magic copletely out, and relace it with whacking enemies in melee with a staff. The changes got so drastic that people got angry that the game no longer looks anything like its preview trailers, so they chnaged the trailers... to answer your question why it gone through play testing, I think they left it in from how the game looked previously, fantasy horror game with magic and investory.

I bought this back in 2022 and I'm excited to give it a go. I found combat a bit lacking, but really enjoyed the atmosphere and setting. It didn't feel like a shooter to me though and I don't think it aims to be. I hope they polished the combat since EA because I don't mind a slow paced adventure game. Like a medieval Blood West. Thank you for the review.

have you tried blood west it is good

Graven was in development hell, which is why it is how it is. Many conflicting ideas and lack of direction. Also, crouch jump is in a ton of games, one should always try it whenever they can.

Slipgate have done some stinkers and the recent stinker Kingpin "reloaded" remaster. I tend to just stay away from their games now.

The last few seconds of this video shows the one part that pissed me off more than anything in any game in the last two decades: You hop onto a magically appearing stone path floating above an insta-death height, when you reach the end you're rewarded with better than normal armor and some gold on a ridiculously small ledge. If you're like me you grab the armor immediately and try to side-shuffle to collect the gold. If you fall, which you likely will, the armor does not respawn, and the gold you collected will be deducted for dying. I fell three times trying to get the last bar of gold, at which point I rage-quit and went to go watch a review video to confirm my frustration. I agree with everything said here. The level design is high quality, but there are parts that feel like a masochist came in with a lifetime of nerd-rage and designed some fuck-you parts just for the hell of it. Did spend three hours trying to find the unknown sewer passage under the murky water in an otherwise nondescript area that you absolutely must find in order to progress? Oh well, fuck you. Did you not know how that you had to burn then zap the half dozen red glob things on the tree in that one room in order to destroy the vine barriers and progress? Oh well, fuck you. Those are just a few examples. Sorry for the rant. If you read all this, you're probably as pissed as I am.

But would you revisit with some patching?

I always wondered why this game had mixed reviews on steam

video on episode enyo?

in the early access I was able to drink a potion with right click??

i think tge inventory idea is pretty good, kind of like loadout but freer

Looks awesome!

first Kingpin Reloaded and now Graven, man Slipgate is fumbling hard...really expected more from 3D Realms.

I have been following this game for YEARS, it breaks my heart to watch this review. I held off on buying it all this time because of mixed reviews, holding on to the hope that the next update would be the one to fix it.. I think it's time to remove this game from my wishlist and forget about it as sad as that is.

If there's one thing you DON'T want to remind gamers of...it's Daikatana

appreciate the honest review!

Too bad, when I saw the mixed reviews on steam during the EA I thought I would let them finish it because it looked good and promising. Like you say, really feels like passionate peoples were working on it. Each new trailer got me a bit more confident. But judging by your review, and Gman's one, I'll wait to try it, they still might improve things with further updates. Thanks for the review !

A mod to assign weapons to number keys is something I'll look forwards to when I buy this game in a fanatical choose your own bundle years from now.

Man, your reviews are always honest and insightful. Thank you for de regular good quality content.

Kinda weird that at first i kinda expected a arx fatalis\dark messiah from this. But no.

Yo mayo. Since I saw you play mortal kombat 1. Why not give tekken 8 a try. Because it honestly feels like a very solid game and I would be curious how you would review it.

Yeah the 2 only weapons sucks. Reminds me of Control where all weapons are rolled into one gun but can only equip 2 of its mode. It so annoying keep going into tab menu to change a mode with another its just makes unnecessary clunkiness.

Checkpoints should be considered a crime against humanity.

Guarantee given all the issues 3DR has had lately that someone came down on Graven & Wrath's dev teams and told them to ship them as soon as possible. What is there, in Graven at least, works, but it is clearly in need of continued polish... like an early access game. Let's just hope it can get that support rather than being tossed out as a bad job.

Do you plan on playing the original half life anytime soon?

im surprised u lasted 20 hours with this game lol, that's quite a lot

Graven apparently did have a map, they just removed it because it "wasn't helpful in the later areas"

Haven't watched the video yet but I just wanted to come here and say that I love the thumbnail xd

I just wanna play Wrath already.

Damn, i was looking forward to playing this game, not anymore :(

You've earned a lot of respect from me not taking a sponsorship you didn't think the game deserved. That must not have been an easy decision. I hope people see and support you for your integrity. Thanks for being honest. Too few reviewers these days are.

If an indie game, voice acting adds considerable cost and not just choosing anyone is ideal. I think people need to read more in the first place considering the literacy rate fallen like a rock, so text is fine. It can only be an issue if there is no atmosphere and music to fill in the hole.

I loved the demo a couple years ago despite mixed reviews and while the things shown are legitimate issues, none seem to be a dealbreaker for me and my admittedly overly high patience and peculiar tastes. One of my favorite games of last year was a metroidvania with no map lol. I definitely appreciate the integrity of not accepting a sponsorship from a game you can't in good conciance endorse, though.

I was unfortunate to play this game in order to review it too... and pretty much everything you coverd here was constantly annoying me too. This is a game where I do like a lot of the ideas. In fact I do believe they put all of it in the game with good intentions, but it just never came together and in order to fix it, they would need to pretty much change a lot in the game. I got through all 3 areas though... and loved the final boss ... that was cool

try to play witchfire.

Anything that discourages you from turning the game off and continuing later is on my absolute DEADLY GAME DESIGN SINS list. I still remember the anxiety I felt as a child playing games with bad / non-existent save systems and "having to" leave the PC running with the game on pause for hours to take care of something else in real life. Or worse, feeling compelled to keep playing even though you're not enjoying yourself or even though you have some obligation to tend to, just because you hope the next (actual) checkpoint will come soon and finally save you from having to repeat minutes of gameplay. This sort of thing was NEVER acceptable. There is NO excuse. The fact that they not only had a game in early access for several years but then declare it "1.0" with this issue completely invalidates any positives. Just like with Wrath I am simply baffled at these half-baked, abandoned nostalgia bait games from 3DR. Make a game or don't! Don't set all the wheels in motion and keep the illusion up for years and years only to pull the rug like this. I cannot imagine that this kind of scam is profitable for investors, considering the years of dev work involved. So it comes down to plain old incompetence. Whoever is ultimately responsible for how these two projects, Wrath and Graven, went down should be blacklisted from everything. I mean it. Stop putting up for sale shit that is years away from being playable. You can have a Steam page and collect wishlists without collecting money. This makes the difference between smart investing and a scam. It is smart to not commit 100% to a project that you don't know will find an audience. But you are tying your own hands into having to deliver, by selling copies of something that doesn't exist yet. You are also making it harder for the devs to actually create the product because all those shit jank early access builds are extra labor to create, plus having to deal with the constant negative reactions because you are selling broken garbage, pretending like it's playable already. P.S. I learned my lesson with Wrath 4+ years ago. Bought into early access to try it out, it was A JOKE so I refunded quickly. When Graven was announced I didn't fall for it and thank god. Now look at where Wrath is, again, years later. And Graven is shit as well. These projects are strong arguments for Steam to get rid of Early Access altogether. It doesn't even matter if they INTEND to be scams, they effectively, functionally are scams regardless.

You should play Blood West

"3D realms developed game"? It was developed by Slipgate Ironworks, but maybe I'm missing something.

Kinda reminds me of Heretic and Hexen...... remember those?

A true boomer would know about crouch-jumping from Half-Life 1, which is, uh, I'm pretty sure the only other game to have this mechanic.

I have no problem with progression systems when I play MMORPGs. I can’t stand them in old school boomer shooters. Economies and upgrade systems are a complete dealbreaker for me

I'm so fucking tired of stamina and video games

Take them sponsorships dude. Get that bag.

I usually watch videos in chunks. I watch 5 min, bookmark the point and finish later, or laterer. Does this fuck up the author's metrics ?

Such a shame that it has such serious design issues. I really like the look and atmosphere of the game.

I feel like the game could be fixed with only 2 or 3 mods

Dark Souls didn't need a map 😅

This game is bugged af from the start menu

Mayo

14:35 "Literally no way to the elevators and softlocked" Its not quite a softlock if you can still progress, might have required unconventional methods to continue and probably something that should be changed but still not a softlock

when you dont know how to name your game; just pick a random artist name, stole and copy it from the art; thats it ; everybody dont buy this failure, just listen to me and keep your money. this is crap; you dont need 2 step in it ^^

You should try out warframe, its free and id really like to hear your thoughts on it

Holding crouch at the end of your jump is just common sense in an FPS. Have you never played Half Life? I don't think a game like this is targeting people who are new to the genre.

14:58 - My brother in Christ, you play boomer shooters, why would you not try to crouch jump?

you dont know how to crouch jump... really you just mean that you don't play Counter strike lol

“How Halo RUINED Graven”

[15:20] "oh yes, of course, I should have known." uh, actually you should have. It's ingrained in me to try crouch in those situations ever since Half-Life. (i think quite a few games use that mantling technique without any apparent need of it.)

This game looks so weird to me (not bad tho)

A lot of comments about crouch jumping... I think there is a slippery slope if genre conventions get to be implicit and the player is expected to know all of them and learn all of them by trial and error. If crouch jumping was optional, intended as a secret "trick", then it wouldn't need some mention in a tutorial. But since it is evidently needed (the shallow grave example speaks for itself) it's one of the mechanics that MUST be taught to the player explicitly. In this game! Not in some other game from 25 years ago. HOW the game teaches the player is an open question. I'm not a big fan of forced tutorials because they hurt the replay value of a game. I actually think a fucking text screen where it's written "you can jump and then crouch to make it up to slightly higher places" would be perfectly fine. I'm not demanding extra production value or so-called "cinematic" design - quite the contrary. But there needs to be an explicit acknowledgment of crouch jumping somewhere in the game. Back in the day games shipped with manuals and if the manual told you how to crouch jump that would also be acceptable. Nowadays with all digital publishing I suppose you could have an item "manual" in the pause menu. Nothing wrong with that. Very cheap to add. The alternative is that genres become more and more insular as the games in each genre become UNPLAYABLE for anyone who doesn't bring 10+ years of experience with the genre to a brand new game that isn't even a sequel. This alternative is no good for the medium so people need to stop making excuses for it. It's always a veiled pat on their own backs for having experience with the genre any way, never comes from a rational place.

It's funny how I was questioning your lack of a map complaint and then you mentioned the game had a HUB world and immediately I started dreading, I loathe overworld and HUB worlds in most games, it might as well be the part where the designers are like, "hey look up a guide now".

"Where's south? I don't have a map or a compass!" American moment.

Why not take the sponsor money and then not recommend it? You're acting as if it was blood money or something.

All of this is valid. But... crouch jumping is probably the single most intuitive and established movement mechanic ever made. It's akin to raising your legs so you can hurdle over stuff. You wouldn't attempt to clear a picket fence IRL by keeping your legs straight during a jump unless you wanted to sterilize yourself for free. Granted, they should've made the very first jump in the game require it, so you knew you could manually change your jump height from the get-go. I think Half Life 2 introduced it like that.

You spend several minutes complaining about having to crouch jump up to a platform in a room that's actually filled with barrels and boxes you can use to jump up to it with, and also the 'intended' way to get up to said platform is to jump to it from another, also crouch jumping is an actual mechanic in the game and can be used to stop fall damage. You complain about stamina being low, not knowing potions refill it and also only having 107 max HP in act 2, meaning you either ignored or had no idea about the shines littered everywhere that permanently raise stats I also have a funny feeling you didn't raise any of the spells either because something like fire goes from 'it sets stuff on fire' to 'it crowd controls, and spreads to others and they explode on death causing even more fire' Impressive levels of getting filtered, you're a real games journalist. Congrats?

I knew game would be horrible during it's early access. I don't know why are you calling it "not a bad game" if it is, literally, garbage soulless piece of the code man. It's one of the worst games we had on this channel, it's Redfall kind of bad. You definitely held some punches about it i can tell. You should have been way more hateful towards it - game deserves all the hate. I hope whoever made the game is fired from 3D Realms and won't ever again make any games. The responsible for this mess should be fired for being completely unprofessional and talentless

op is crap talking. there is a map. always been

Graven doesn't have an identity crisis. It's players have expectation crisis.

So to do a sponsored video you have to praise the game? Noted.

You understand it . Thats the problem