Could A GIANT Gun Battery Have Saved Pearl Harbor In 1941? (WarGames 160)

Could A GIANT Gun Battery Have Saved Pearl Harbor In 1941? (WarGames 160) | DCS

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Күн бұрын

We model the 1941 IJN attack on Pearl Harbor and try to answer if an enormous gun battery could have protected it from the attacking Japanese aircraft.
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0:00 Overview
0:58 Scenario Details
3:42 Predictions
4:44 Battle
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Пікірлер: 272

@MTBScotland 10 ай бұрын

Cap "we are going to do a simulation of the attack on pearl harbour but it isn't pearl harbour, we are not using the right planes or the correct number, we don't have the correct ships or period specific weapons either" Exactly why I love this channel 🤣

@VikingTeddy 10 ай бұрын

I thought we'd never have to see those 190's in drag ever again. Cursed Zeros.

@leventekovacs5291 9 ай бұрын

Best comment I ever read honestly 🤣🤣🤣

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

It still has explosions in it. That bit is accurate?

@TheNecromancer6666 9 ай бұрын

@@grimreapersThat's all that matters right? Though next time S200 please. So the explosions are bigger.

@mk6315 9 ай бұрын

@@grimreapers that’s the most important one cap, good show

@itsjustme8947 10 ай бұрын

My father flew the F-86 in Korea. Yes, they had ejection seats and no, you didn't want to use them unless you were really desperate. The canopy had to come off first and the damn thing slid BACKWARDS, almost taking your head off in the process. Also, if you were at or below 1000 feet, it was useless. Edit: In addition, after hearing Cap talking about opening a window at 150 knots? Try punching out at 600. I suffered catastrophic engine failure in a 15-C model at relatively low altitude (1875 feet according to the black box). It was eject immediately or burn. You pull the handles and that's all you remember until you're almost on the ground. That was the ONLY time I punched out, thank whomever. It broke my left arm, 6 ribs, and my left ankle. Three months until I was back in the saddle again.

@Mobius118 10 ай бұрын

Makes me think we need a sort of “G-out” effect in your vision in DCS upon ejection. It wouldn't be that hard to implement or take up many resources computationally so I don’t see why we couldn’t get that!

@Glamrock993 9 ай бұрын

@@Mobius118or alternatively.. “Ace Combat” mode where you can do *just a few more G than normal, hehe.

@warbuzzard7167 9 ай бұрын

Gaaaaah!

@itsjustme8947 9 ай бұрын

@@warbuzzard7167 Well, that's one way of putting it, lol!

@itsjustme8947 9 ай бұрын

@@Mobius118 I don't play the game (yet), but I guess my question is, what would be the point? Once you eject, you're out of the fight anyway. I mean, drama? Realism? Although, if you were to make SAR a feature to return a pilot to the fight (as long as you didn't punch out at 600+...). On a completely different point, did you know that actual military simulators are capable of factoring in your individual physical factors? Example: I could always handle a little more +G's for a little longer without problem, but I'd succumb to red-out a bit quicker than normal. Now THAT would be a nice feature in the game if you asked my opinion, although I imagine it would add another strain on multiplayer servers. Plus, I'd love to see the results if players enter their real world physical data and try to fly high performance aircraft, lol! We aren't a bunch of squat, muscled up, little a-holes for no reason, after all! Heh, the game could even keep it's original name DCS, but the 'C' would stand for 'Cessna', not 'Combat'. Hope I'm not sounding too mean, lol! After all, should all fighters go the unmanned route, there wouldn't be a huge requirement for peak physical fitness.

@drrocketman7794 10 ай бұрын

The USA's top-secret "variable timing" fuse for the 127mm dual-purpose guns was authorized to use by the Pacific Fleet, but use in the European theater was not allowed because they didn't want unexploded shells to be disassembled by Germany (or anyone else, for that matter) and reverse engineered.

@gamarus0kragh 10 ай бұрын

By the Battle of the Bulge the VT fuses were released for use both by heavy AA and more importantly, artillery. It was felt that the Reich would not last long enough for them to analyze and copy the proximety fuse.

@drrocketman7794 10 ай бұрын

@@gamarus0kragh I forgot about that, but yeah, now that you reminded me! Thanks!

@m1t2a1 10 ай бұрын

One was likely to splash in the water, but a failed shell would be easier to find on land.

@drrocketman7794 10 ай бұрын

@@m1t2a1 That's why they were allowed in the Pacific

@robertlight2370 10 ай бұрын

@gamarus0kragh Patton said that proximity fuses at the Battle of the Bulge forced the Germans to change infantry tactics overnight.

@Wyomingchief 10 ай бұрын

The first operational type built anywhere to provide ejection seats for the crew was the Heinkel He 219 Uhu night fighter in 1942. In Sweden, a version using compressed air was tested in 1941. A gunpowder ejection seat was developed by Bofors and tested in 1943 for the Saab 21.

@neil168 10 ай бұрын

Wouldn't the guns deconflict better, and perhaps be more effective if they were distributed around the harbour, rather than being in one clump?

@user-rx6ek5yi9j 9 ай бұрын

That’s a great point!

@elrekplaysgames4701 9 ай бұрын

possibly the shorter range tracer firing stuff nearer to the ships might have helped, but they seem pretty decent from that mass clump

@benjaminshropshire2900 9 ай бұрын

A distribution would likely also be more realistic considering the enemy can choose its attack vector(s). OTOH, if you distribute the same number of AA guns, then feeding everything from one side would minimize the number of rounds the AA has time to fire at any one aircraft; the stuff on the far side might not even be in range until after the attacker has dropped its load.

@neil168 9 ай бұрын

@@benjaminshropshire2900 I think it's okay for the distribution to mean some guns aren't firing some of the time. That's partly how they'll deconflict. It seemed to me that there were more than enough guns, they were just tending to all shoot at the same target. Also, the more realistic the better, but this is a mostly a for fun exercise anyway. Cap's allowed to have his fun!

@benjaminshropshire2900 9 ай бұрын

@@neil168 IIRC several studies from that era suggested that it took more or less a fixed number of rounds to down an airplane. If so, the. The rate that airplanes could be dealt with is approximately proportional to the average rate of fire and any gun going silent part of the time reduces that average rate. It would be interesting to run some models to try different targeting strategies: everyone shoots at the reachable threat closest to the ships vs. everyone shoots at the threat they have the best chance of hitting vs. some of each?

@dace0326 10 ай бұрын

I imagine the empty shell pile would look like the safe in ducktales by the end

@BoraHorzaGobuchul 9 ай бұрын

Imagine the boom it would bake if something hit the shells stockpiled at/near the position :)

@RobRoss 9 ай бұрын

This was a very soothing video. I think the constant explosions sounded like popping corn. And who doesn’t like popcorn? 🍿

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

agree

@charlesparr1611 9 ай бұрын

Have you tried one where it's just the actual defences there on the day, including the ships and land defences and the local air assets, except instead of being surprised they are ready and waiting? That would actually be interesting and useful....

@MarkoDash 10 ай бұрын

it seems like in a lot of these there is an issue with the ships secondaries, the game doesn't let the dual purpose guns be used in the AA role. just the light point defense guns it happens with the modern ships too, their main gun can also be used for AA but the game doesn't allow it.

@tokencivilian8507 10 ай бұрын

Great vid, as always. My understanding is that for land heavy AA guns they would have been director controlled. One director controlling 4 to 6 guns. Each director would pick out a target and focus those guns under its control on that target. As for "not hitting the target directly" check out the AA engagement articles on NAVWEAPS where Iowa scored a direct hit with a 5"/38 on an inbound IJN airplane. The director operator reported that one moment he was looking at a plane, the next he was seeing nothing but an engine and propeller flying through the sky.

@mattfrombolwarra8405 10 ай бұрын

The first operational type built anywhere to provide ejection seats for the crew was the Heinkel He 219 Uhu night fighter in 1942.

@TheStormpilgrim 9 ай бұрын

That was pretty much like setting up a bug zapper in front of a nest of yellowjackets and flipping the switch.

@catyph81 9 ай бұрын

Why do I the urge to queue up the "1812 Overture" while watching this?

@Dennys854 9 ай бұрын

Love to see this again with distributed AA batteries half on the northern spit as well as the field (maybe some 57's on the middle island in the harbor). Bring the zeroes in groups of 4, 12 planes per spawn. Not sure how close in time you could get them, maybe 2-3 minutes per respawn.

@wrayday7149 9 ай бұрын

This might of been more interesting if you have waves of 5 aircraft at high alt and waves of 5 at medium to force the guns to change elevation.

@21Walls 8 ай бұрын

"Why he didn't hit his target? No idea." Moments earlier: "These planes are pretty miserable to fly when they're damaged" "Wowee! It's like a 100mm gatling gun!"

@trev8591 10 ай бұрын

HE-219 (sexy airplane) had ejection rails for the pilot in the early 1940's. Thanks for all the time and effort you put in to these scenarios, Cap. Greatly appreciated by us Viewingtons.

@FlyingOsprey4418 10 ай бұрын

Ejection seats were in ww2 do335 had one It had 4 buttons to activate it and you had to manually eject the canopy. Due to the speed of the 335 pilots kept ripping their arms of as the canopy would fly of faster than they could let go of the jettison handles.

@LukeBunyip 10 ай бұрын

Ta.

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

thx

@harryhoudini714 9 ай бұрын

so basically you had to decide! either lose your hands or lose your life! Thank god for technological advancements I guess :)

@TheHoneyThief 10 ай бұрын

Part of what made proximity fuses so useful was that aircraft flew in formations rather than being drip fed into a meat grinder. Is this worth simulating?

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

Rgr

@christophero55 10 ай бұрын

Something I would love to see you guys test is an anti-air rocket against bomber formations or fighter swarms. These would be rockets that could reach a high enough altitude, with enough accuracy, with 100 kg to 300 kg warheads that would either explode at a predetermined altitude like anti-aircraft artillery or even better with a proximity sensor. The warheads would be large enough that they would not need to be incredibly accurate, especially if you could fire them in large salvos. This is WW2 (or slightly after) level technology but it was only discussed and never fully developed or fielded. It would be great to a simulation of how that would have gone if (probably the Germans) had gotten something like that together.

@BoraHorzaGobuchul 9 ай бұрын

Can't wait to see a genie or bomarc in dcs :)

@pahtar7189 5 ай бұрын

The damage model on the planes was excellent except that each section of a plane was damaged in exactly the same way. Every damaged canopy had holes in exactly the same spots.

@cmendla 8 ай бұрын

And, for the next six weeks, 25 bulldozers and 50 dump trucks worked 24/7 to remove all the empty brass from the gun battery area.

@drrocketman7794 10 ай бұрын

21:59 the fuse delay on the German 8.8cm Flak-43 was 11 seconds, to get to 30,000 ft or so.

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

thx

@gotindrachenhart 9 ай бұрын

What a fun video! I found that listening to the William Tell Overture in the background improves it slightly :D :D

@fondueset6034 9 ай бұрын

HE219 had the first operational ejection seat. I think the salamander had one too (HE 162)

@blademaster2390 9 ай бұрын

I can understand asset limitations, but calling a Pennsacola a battleship is a heck of a stretch

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

Roger, kind of looks like a mini BB if you squint?

@american_cosmic 10 ай бұрын

I love your commentary so much... what a great channel!

@notagooglesimp8722 10 ай бұрын

Directions unclear, added Berlin Flak towers. Hey did you guys know that the USA 90mm AAA gun was actually so advanced that we had them hooked up in batteries of 3 then in groups of 5 fed back into an analog targeting computer in the 1940s in the UK once the US entered the war? We even floated the idea of hooking them up to more advanced navy battleship firing table computers to try to hit V1 and V2 rockets. But they determined it wouldn't be worth it because the dud round rate for the timed and altitude shell fuses was too high that like 1 in every few shells would come back down on London and cause more damage than a V2 strike because of all the American DAKKA it would take to make a successful kill on a V2.

@Evocati-Augusti 10 ай бұрын

One thing ill never say is , we didn't didn't see them coming...

@jerled9376 9 ай бұрын

Just a mention about ejection seats & WW2 aircraft... most of them did not have such systems due to the fact that an ejection seat requires the overhead canopy to be completely removed from the aircraft before firing off so as not to hang-up on use and possibly critically injure the pilot on ejection. Most planes of the time did not have the provision to "blow-off" the canopy for proper deployment of an ejection system. If such had been available, a lot more pilots might have survived and safety systems on aircraft might have developed faster as a result...

@gruntopolouski5919 9 ай бұрын

First air tested ejection seat was 44, from a Saab. First real use was in 46, after a collision between a J-21 and a J-22.

@haroldbenton979 10 ай бұрын

The 1st ejection seat was on the DO355 the twin engine front and rear engine Pusher propeller plane that was used in combat.

@drrocketman7794 10 ай бұрын

14:22 I would *not* want to be on the receiving side of that flak barrage... that is *scary.*

@BernieTheBoxer 10 ай бұрын

Only apparent problem with the damage model is that graphically you see cockpit damage but the model cannot accommodate the fact that a dead pilot cannot fly

@daanimus 9 ай бұрын

Going to be raining shrapnel for a while, gents. Definitely a therapeutic vid.

@Pablo668 10 ай бұрын

Not sure exactly when the first ejection seats showed up, but Martin Baker, a British company became a major manufacturer of them post war.

@UNSF 10 ай бұрын

Still saddened why no company makes a A6M Zero module for DCS. On the other side the IL-2 team refuses citing "not enough data" which I call BS. They could have just at least release one aircraft while working the rest slowly or even "improvise" some of the flight models if really no data.

@DeusEx1977 9 ай бұрын

The Do335A Pfeil had an ejection seat. It was never mass produced, but damn if it wasn't a beautiful plane. I mean it was a technological dead end, being a prop plane, but still.

@DarkRendition 9 ай бұрын

I’M SO EXCITED HE MENTIONED A “Zerg-rush”!!!!!

@pahtar7189 5 ай бұрын

The "battleships" that were damaged were in fact cruisers. The easiest way to tell is that battleships were named after states, cruisers after cities, destroyers after people.

@kingofbritons 10 ай бұрын

I wonder if the 40 torpedo planes that were part of the attack and came in at a much lower altitude simultaneous to the high altitude bombers would change the outcome of this simulation since the AA battery would have to change altitude firings all the time.

@5Andysalive 9 ай бұрын

With so many guns, this has the serious danger of moving the Island backwards! Also the infinite ammo thing is not enough appreciated in the summary.

@Maverick0451 9 ай бұрын

All those old AA guns just put up a metal wall of shrapnel that the warbirds just couldn’t cope with. I know some got through, but those wouldn’t have been acceptable losses for the attackers. I imagine that is exactly what the skies over Germany looked like in 1944-45. I don’t think a freaking bird could fly through all that flak!!

@Maedhros0Bajar 10 ай бұрын

I wonder, could the Hochseeflotte defeat the Pearl Harbor attack fleet? They wouldn't be able to do much against the planes of course, but could they take out the Japanese ships and then survive until the airborne planes run out of fuel? If they can't: how about the Grand Fleet? If even they can't: how about every single ship that was at Jutland? (the Danish trawler isn't needed)

@RoyChartier 10 ай бұрын

Not even sure what this was supposed to simulate. About as accurate as the Kido Butai flying FW-190s.

@TheNecromancer6666 9 ай бұрын

Funfact: in the 1950s the Soviets developed a towed 152mm AA gun. The KM-52. It weighed 33,5 tons, could fire 17 rounds a minute and was, when it was finished in 1954, completely useless. They develop rocket assisted projectiles for it. But... turns out actual guided rockets are better.

@shuntera 10 ай бұрын

Miraculously while the aircraft are getting chunked by that flak, the bombs they carry look remarkably unblemished!!!!

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

Extra tough bombs.

@patricktho6546 9 ай бұрын

the durability of the Dora definitely helped the agressors

@awy1977 9 ай бұрын

What a cool scenario. I imagine you must have a great server to avoid melting it.

@brianfoster7064 9 ай бұрын

Try again, but based on the info on Wikipedia for M9 Gun Director with the SCR-584 and the 90mm gun M3. Crew only had to load the gun. Use proximity rounds.

@android4219 10 ай бұрын

Hi Cap. I really appreciate your videos. I don’t have the patience to learn to fly all the different aircraft, so I enjoy it third hand by watching you. Do you mind me asking, how many hours per week do you put into the channel? I’m guessing it’s a lot.. 🤔 Many thanks for keeping me entertained.. 🙂👍

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

It used to be 70 hours per week, but now I have a baby I had to cut it to 45, which has been very difficult.

@Wyomingchief 9 ай бұрын

@grimreapers absolutely no idea how you do that. As a father of five, who are all thankfully grown up and out of the house now, I couldn't imagine. But then again I guess I could because I used to work 60 hours a week and this is your full-time job too so carry on.😂 Oh and by the way you do a fantastic job

@deadmeat8754 9 ай бұрын

Thanks to GR and Cap. Your content entertains me daily...:) +1

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

awwww

@coreymoyers5771 10 ай бұрын

We are sorry to inform you that your hearing loss is not service related.

@tom23rd 10 ай бұрын

That was like Death and Destruction ASMR 😂

@nigeldepledge3790 9 ай бұрын

Next up, the radar-controlled gun aimers from around the tail end of 1944. These devices shot down more V-1s than the fighters or human-operated flak batteries.

@alynnbeyer7868 Ай бұрын

If i remember my aviation history correctly the first ejection seat was on the Heinkel He 219 Uhu night fighter. Believe bofors developed a gunpowder ejection seat for the Saab 21 around 42 or 43.

@douglasarthur2673 10 ай бұрын

Silly question Cap (or was it rhetorical?)....who DOESN'T like Aviation and Explosions ? When it's the GR's, the more the better !!!

@pv_hobbying 9 ай бұрын

Enjoyed the video, however I would like it to be ran back, with a few changes. A time on target attack by the Japanese in waves... I get you probably want to be accurate, but it is more accurate to try and guess it, rather than have the planes come in single file. Secondly, the guns need to be distrubuted more around the habour, a large battery is fine, however I think a few small batteries would be more efficient. Lastly, and I by no means know this myself, other than knowing it is a factor, how many shots can each gun shoot before it wears the barrel out? It could, and probably is in the 1000's, which I doubt each battery did shoot, but I think it would be better if that was modelled, by limiting the ammo of each gun to that number at least as it wouldn't matter if they had the ammo then, the gun is toast till a barrel change.

@wilson2455 10 ай бұрын

8:15 - (and so on) looking at the massive holes in the canopy(s), those pilots must to be long dead before their planes are kaput !!

@jpshaw55 9 ай бұрын

Ok, so I'm kind of addicted to your channel... but I want to see what might have happened if the US Navy had learned of the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 1st. Perhaps have all the battleships sitting close enough to head for the IJN fleet once they dispatched their planes. Bring the carriers back to lurk near enough to intercept the aircraft... There's something satisfying about watching them get smashed before they sneak in...

@paulmcgregor6411 9 ай бұрын

First ejection seat was He-219 Uhu for operational aircraft

@randalljones4370 9 ай бұрын

I reached my therapeudic dose at about 12 minutes in. Began to eel a little toxic (repetitious, dizzy, lost count) at about 22 minutes. Never did reach LD50

@valentinmoerth2279 10 ай бұрын

This is the ultimate tower defense game

@mattm969 9 ай бұрын

10:03 - Observer effect. You changed the outcome by looking at it!

@Kevin-hb7yq 10 ай бұрын

How well would a Patriot battery or CWIS array have defended during the battle of Britain?

@stevenmiller184 10 ай бұрын

It appears that they have timed but not proximity fuses. Long strings of flak at a fixed altitude.

@TheCaptainbeefylog 9 ай бұрын

A few 500lb HEs in that flak park would nullify most of the AAA.

@anathardayaldar 10 ай бұрын

When will DCS implement Cthulhu ?

@signore_yeti 10 ай бұрын

Watching this, I’ve got divine wind.

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

That smells.

@cs292 10 ай бұрын

You guys sound like Mystery Science Theater.

@Anarchy_420 9 ай бұрын

19:15 lmao yeah Cap! P-80 Shooting Star intercept Ju-88's with Variety of Fw190's and Bf109's escorts!🙏👍

@Anarchy_420 9 ай бұрын

Flight of Bf 109G's, flight of Bf 109 K-4's, flight of FW-190 A-8's, and FW-190 D-9's!👍

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

rgr

@Anarchy_420 9 ай бұрын

@@grimreapers lol at work had to stop, to answer Cap! You're The Man!👍👍

@zacharylovelady9265 9 ай бұрын

I cant imagine how hot those barrels would be in real life

@LIrwin74 10 ай бұрын

Aviation plus explosions. My favourite 😍

@limedickandrew6016 9 ай бұрын

I think Grim Reapers have a little bit of an over obsession with Pearl Harbour.

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

I now have dreams about PH.

@ryanpayne7707 9 ай бұрын

VT fuses were not used until 1944, Cap. The first ejection seat was used on the He162A in 1944. Japanese pilots didn't even have parachutes.

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

thx

@sooner1ksn370 10 ай бұрын

If nothing else, the sheer loses of aircraft and pilots from first air fleet would radically change the Pacufic war

@c-v-n3322 10 ай бұрын

I would rather know how many of the CIWS Phalanx would have been needed if they were available during this time in history.

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

Problem with CIWS as we found is that it carries very little ammo, and runs out very fast. Was not suited to a sustained attack at all for 40 mins.

@Wolfe351 9 ай бұрын

the 100mm guns firing looks like a cluster munition going off...!

@frenchroast1355 9 ай бұрын

That was cool. I'd like to see more battles with heavy flak. There's no way to see how effective the 100mm were vs. 57mm is there?

@pixlpotions 10 ай бұрын

Is this "Red losses - Blue losses" window a mod or something you're running through the editor?

@mpeugeot 8 ай бұрын

if you would layer the defense with groups of batteries 1/2 mile apart, you would have more efficient use of the batteries without deconfliction.

@markstott6689 10 ай бұрын

I would like to request a redo with all the aircraft arriving at the same time or near enough. I'd also have guns either side of the anchorage. Perhaps also have some of the aircraft coming in at low level too. This is assuming the pc can handle it?

@leepatterson5710 9 ай бұрын

How about 100 Shaheed drones vs 50 WW2 guns?

@charliejordansyoutubechann6857 9 ай бұрын

I would like to see the Nike Hercules anti air missiles fight a massive Japanese attack on Pierl harbor

@nikkip3385 9 ай бұрын

Yep it's been a long day and this is excellent therapy! Gotta luv a bit of GR "hypothetical" mindless violence. 😂

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

agree

@bansheesongz6908 9 ай бұрын

Give Pearl some Flight-3's, they've gotta be able to save the harbor.

@drrocketman7794 10 ай бұрын

Conclusion: I believe that's a successful defense.

@Lankygit01 8 ай бұрын

id love to see this done again but with the infamous german Flak 88

@benjaminshropshire2900 9 ай бұрын

What would the WW-2 equivalent of the fleet defense cruiser concept be? If a ship was built to *only* mount AA guns, what would it end up looking like? Would it need much of a mast? Or could it just be 5in gun tubs from bow to stern with smaller stuff stuffed in the gaps?

@Lyndonberg_Gaming 9 ай бұрын

They do seem to be deconflicting

@chrisvinicombe9947 10 ай бұрын

Massive indiscriminate artillery battery. Soviet anthem plays in backround

@grimreapers 9 ай бұрын

Nothing has changed?

@chrisvinicombe9947 9 ай бұрын

So it seems

@JimUSCM 10 ай бұрын

Its not a bombing mission it's an invasion force by parachute lol

@jyralnadreth4442 9 ай бұрын

You could try the Swedish Visby Class Corvettes with their 57mm Bofors Mark 3 and how well they could change the results.

@cdw7458 9 ай бұрын

Not reading through all the comments to see if this was addressed; USA invented the proximity fuze and fielded it in 1944. Initially it was only used by the Navy in the Pacific; 5 inch naval guns with proximity fuze's we're the only thing that could consistently stop Kamikazes. Eventually they were used on the 90 mm AA gun in England to shoot down V 1s. The US kept the fuze a secret from the British. They told the Brits that those gunners had exceptional eyesight from eating carrots.

@aztec0112 9 ай бұрын

When you send in a hundred plus planes in single file at a predictable altitude, it damn well better be 100% casualties. Why didn't you use Ju-88's with torpedoes to attack BB Row? (1 @Ju = 2 Kate's). This just a shooting gallery.