Did 4-stoke dirt bikes ruin professional Motocross & Supercross?? Kris Keefer explains...

Рет қаралды 13,252

Жыл бұрын

This podcast ticks all the boxes for me... Kris Keefer is a renowned motorcycle test rider and has decades of time in the game. He started his career as a racer, then gear model, OEM test rider and now rules the online space when it comes to the testing of dirt bikes. He has a loyal fan base who over the years has been given some top notch advice on all things dirt bikes and it was a pleasure to sit down for a few hours and talk moto!
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Пікірлер: 69

@rustyshackelford7084 Жыл бұрын

100% on board with lower displacement bikes. My first bike ever was a 450. “You’re a big guy, a 450 is no problem”. It was great in the open desert and sand dunes but once I got into trail riding I learned real quick that it’s more fun to ride a slow bike fast than it is to ride a fast bike slow.

@koreymiller26 Жыл бұрын

I remember in 03 my dad bought 2 ktm 125’s for around 8k new. By 2009 we were on 250 2 strokes and 450s mostly and costs had risen but not to the point where racing was not achievable like it is now days for the average person. The reality for the hardcore local is that a new bike is good for a year on average and with 10k bike prices and $2000 rebuilds and local tracks closing because of fuel and operating costs this sport that we all love is dying faster every year and with each new advancement in bikes by the manufacturers come a new $250 rise in price on each bike and that leads to one more racer that just can’t afford it anymore. Jase I love your podcast and content keep it up! ✌️

@cmlovejr Жыл бұрын

Love to see the displacement lowered. I wouldn’t have a problem with the 250’s going down 50cc even. But think 450 down to a 350 would be a great idea.

@Jake_Hamlin Жыл бұрын

If 4strokes are better, ama should let the 250 2strokes race 250 4strokes, no displacement handicap. They do in NZ.

@jackstradtner3444 Жыл бұрын

I agree but I think they should allow modified 4 strokes and stock 2 strokes.

@Jake_Hamlin Жыл бұрын

@@jackstradtner3444 why? Modern 4strokes are better through the first half of the rev range stock. And the top end of the revs is pretty much unusable, Tomac even admits he spends a lot of time riding the clutch because the bike has too much hp/torque for the traction available

@greasemonkeygarage1896 Жыл бұрын

Either a lower cc limit or hp limit would be my opinion like a 350 4stroke and a 250 2stroke class included

@TheShift1313 Жыл бұрын

I was working at a yamaha dealer when the yz400 came out and i remember hearing them at budds creek and hating the sound. At the time i didnt think it would change how it did. Ive had a few carbbed 450s. My 07 rmz450.hit so hard. My 2011 and 2012 ktm450s are much more refined. I think the tracks from the 2 stroke era were slower and gnarlier. I think now the sx tracks are so fast and so much consequence. Id love to see some slower tracks. Also i agree. 250 4t is enough bike.

@Davido50 Жыл бұрын

Real men ride both 2-strokes & 4-strokes. *Great discussion & true* !

@mojavemike3060 Жыл бұрын

Supercross needs a 250 stroke only class and then we can see what we enjoy watching more

@cadillacmoto Жыл бұрын

I like keefer's reasonable thinking. Wanting lower displacement and change, but recognizing that it would take too much from manufacturers or the industry to create such massive change. So many guys preach for big changes but don't realize what it would take to make it happen.

@Davido50 Жыл бұрын

Can't get a new Suzuki 4-stroke MX bike bk East for 5-6k! They want MSRP period ..still. They won't haggle cause they sell all they can get ..of every brand. Try finding a Yamaha Raptor 700R sport quad! Lol $2k above msrp. No joke.

@stephenwilson1012 Жыл бұрын

Um no our "options" are dwindling. Half the manufacturers don't make a 2 stroke anymore and if you're lucky there's maybe 2 classes you can only race a 2 stroke. We need to strengthen the 85-250 gap. Stronger 125 presence for the smaller 15 year old whose not ready for a 4 stroke or that 24 year old kid whose parents never let ride.

@Stealth164 Жыл бұрын

Lol I’m I’m that 24 year old on a yz125😂

@jimmydoes1 Жыл бұрын

Never to old to ride a 125

@Hogdog970 Жыл бұрын

price and maint of four strokes turn many away. I've updated to kibblewhite valves for many four stroke folks. the honda crfs just love to drop valves. they ever fix that? I walked away years ago. as have many like me.

@chrisvillarreal2752 Жыл бұрын

I had a crf250r and crf450r 08 and 05 both had over 150 hours with zero valve issues.

@Hogdog970 Жыл бұрын

@@chrisvillarreal2752 i've done about 50 bikes. you got lucky! (im a honda guy, so dont get the wrong idea) lol kibblewhite around for some reason...

@chrisvillarreal2752 Жыл бұрын

@@Hogdog970 I actually went with beryllium copper seats, stock valves, never had an issue. I do remember them getting a bad rep for the valves though. Especially the 04 I’m a Honda guy too but I’ve gone orange… they’re just so damn good.

@brettnorsworthy7834 Жыл бұрын

Hey man. I’ve used copper beryllium seats with stock valves and stainless steel conversions on many early gen four strokes. I’ve learned clean air filters make a huge difference in valvetrain life as well as riding smoothly instead of rev limiter clutch dumping after tip towing around a corner to clear a jump. Also, the first few gens people were endlessly reshimming shot valves until they broke off or sucked through the heads. Now a days I have many friends that ride new bikes weekend after weekend with much less wrenching than my experience on the first gen 4 strokes. Now it’s more worth it for me to have a payment on a new bike I don’t worry about than an older one needing constant repairs and down time. It’s not too much more expensive to take care of a new bike with a 200 buck payment than premix, pistons, and cylinder replating on an older two stroke that you run the guts out of just to get walked on by billy bob on a 250f

@Hogdog970 Жыл бұрын

@@brettnorsworthy7834 i live at altitude i think it was another factor. 5200 to 8k feet. and rides up to 12k feet.

@vmcmark7578 Жыл бұрын

There was a lot of back door politics involving ATC's, QUAD's, PWC's & GREEN/RED STICKERS that ""HELPED???"" kill the 2st as well but some digging is required to find that side of the story.

@mattjohnson268 Жыл бұрын

4 strokes cost too much and really made the jumps too easy for non skilled riders who can’t carry cornet speed. Now a Novice class rider can just tip toe through a turn and twist a handful to send it off a face he never would’ve tried on a 2 stroke.

@snooks250sx Жыл бұрын

The carbureted 2008 Honda 450 is still considered by many to be the best Honda 450 ever built. I choose to buy a 250 two stroke because the amateur rules have equal displacement and it is a power advantage in the 250 class

@b2ridez279 Жыл бұрын

Way fewer mechanicals on 4ts. Guys would be sticking pistons left and right nowadays. They didn’t ruin the sport, they advanced it.

@brettnorsworthy7834 Жыл бұрын

Long time 2 stroke lover. When I first rode a 250f it was not a great experience. After an o ring around the accelerator pump linkage, the throttle response is brought back. Then comparing my 125 to one, I had to have one. I bought a 04 kx250f. After so many motor issues I went back to two strokes. Fast forward to me finally riding a fuel injected 250, and watching my buddy’s buy new bikes and ride every weekend with just oil changes and air filter cleanings, I am finally headed to buy a brand new bike. And it will be a 250f. Reliability is better than the first two gens of them as long as you don’t barcia the rev limiter all day

@CunningStuntsGoFast Жыл бұрын

i race bikes more now but i did 4 seasons of dirtbike racing , weapon of choice was husqvarna tc610 . thats right , the infamous long stroke 570 cc , i was laughed at and called the dinosour by all the spoiled kids on new bikes . i was not slow on it and got to learn how to max myself out on it , still got 2 trofees from winning and a 3rd place . if you nowhere near talented like most of us , you could just buy something affordable and just go for it , you never win big races anyway

@happyman8488 Жыл бұрын

I like my 450 thank you. It keeps the sport cheaper for me. I just put her in third and let her idle around the track. Get 200 hours on a piston, no probs yz 450.

@cfox109 Жыл бұрын

I remember my first time riding a stock 04 kx 250f( a shitty bike btw.) I had a kx125 with every PC part on it. On my 125 there was this 6 pack section where I had to rail the turn and seat bounce it just to double the whole way through. A few fast guys on 450s and 250 2 strokes could triple triple. First lap on the 250f I went through that turn like I would on my 125, railed it and went to seat bounce realized I was going way faster and let up and didn't seat it. Ended up casing into the triple. Next lap railed and seat bounced and tripled the section. I'd never think of doing that on my 125. Went back to the truck and was like how is this even fair to race in the 125 class! It should have been obvious from the start to limit the CC's a bit more on 4 strokes.

@Davido50 Жыл бұрын

Ohhhh have times changed my moto riding friend. -NY

@cfox109 Жыл бұрын

@@Davido50 I still have the 125 though, I'll never get rid of it. The 250f can die in fire though lol

@goldmx1229 Жыл бұрын

Usable power is the key, I see so many guys struggling trying to ride their 450, Who remember Steve Lamson winning on a 125 vs all 500cc with best riders of the world on the Desnations. Jeff Emig doing the same at Lorettas on a 125 modified to 150, Usable power is the key my friend I see that everyday at any local track. Why a 450 if you can’t handle a 85cc. (Obviously im not talking about Keefer who still a good rider and better than me)

@WCO3 Жыл бұрын

Lower the displacement to 350cc then allow the 2 smokers to run the exact same amount og ccs as the 4, Are you listening worldsupercross let's spice things up.

@UTP_ENT 28 күн бұрын

As a 200 pounds 250 novice, it takes a lot of work to be clear jumps on main tracks wouldnt expect a vet rider to be able to clear shit ion a 250f

@JbFixCorleone Жыл бұрын

What’s the problem with carbureted 4 strokes?

@Rareos Жыл бұрын

definitely nothing!

@nolandenham2509 Жыл бұрын

Nothing at all. While I like the EFI 4strokes I still have a 2005 crf450x. It's not as good as my efi 450 but it's pretty damn close.

@jeffgayzose8129 Жыл бұрын

Harder to tune and you can't set up custom powerbands

@Rareos Жыл бұрын

@@jeffgayzose8129 ..but not at all sketchy as Jase suggested. the biggest drawback I can remember at first was probably getting them started after going down or even a stall. Many races were finished with guys just kicking away. …and if you wanted a custom power band, you just changed some parts ;)

@someoneyouknow96 Жыл бұрын

Yeah Jace acting like a carbed 4 stroke barely ran right. Where the F did that thought come from? And why would something so stupid come out of his mouth? Look at all the problems people have with EFI. Shit, even factory teams have had failure during races with EFI. My next bike will be EFI but I have 3 bikes that are carbed. They all run great.

@MARCHOFTHESAS Жыл бұрын

It’s on ca and Honda to blame

@stmboat 9 ай бұрын

As badly as it was criticized, I turned over when I first rode a properly set up and running 00' TE410. It was tough to tip in but the over-square arrangement along with relatively low compression and a mild cam gave super confidence. I only had kx250's prior, the 4 stroke felt like cheating cause you could carry momentum and ride like a lazy ass.

@seanwahl1000 Жыл бұрын

A couple things to note, 4 strokes did not kill 2 strokes in mx/sx, the displacement rules did. Also, like Reed says, the 4 strokes actually make racing better because it takes less effort and skill (leave it in 3rd gear and go around the track.) In the 2 stroke days it was always the same guy on the top of the box.

@chadhall5921 Жыл бұрын

The nxt thing is electric and I’m f--King out on that

@Davido50 Жыл бұрын

Electric vs gas powered bikes are 100% other discussion. Engine design is one thing. We have both. Own both while you can! -OH

@teslafieldphysics4041 Жыл бұрын

I Hated that pile of junk since it came out! My friend bought one right away. Garbage. We went to Pontiac Supercross that year, I'll never forget hearing the awful noise that Doug Henery's YZF was making that day all the way around the f'n Silverdome! They wrecked the sport with that thing. Thanks Yamaha.

@CraigHenry-zq8jz 9 ай бұрын

Displacement on four stroke s needs lowering.only saying.

@odeebundrick9124 Жыл бұрын

I remember seeing this fellar in dirt rider his opinion carrys weight

@danielbetts3327 Жыл бұрын

Listening to this after the 2023 Denver Supercross. 2 factory riders are left in the entire 450 class. Eli Tomac just lost the title injuring his Achilles, Webb, Anderson and Barcia went out the week before. Craig, Stewart, Fernandis have all had bad seasons. Not worth watching now

@greasemonkeygarage1896 Жыл бұрын

Diplomacy killed 2 strokes and a majority of motocross and super cross

@jemcee97 Жыл бұрын

I feel like there's a lot of older dudes still riding on 450's that wouldn't be if they had to ride 2 stroke.. In some ways that's a good thing but in others that's a recipe for disaster

@vmcmark7578 Жыл бұрын

Injuries in SX !!! How many times did we see pilots getting REBOUNDED 15-25+++ feet down the race track the last few years?? CS23?? You control a bike by loading & unloading the suspension to make the chassis work & think about the difference between the OUTDOOR & INDOOR SPRING RATES??? If the OUTDOOR rates are anywhere near correct, then the INDOOR set-up is so so so OVER SPRUNG that even the little tiniest screw up ends with MAJOR PAIN. If we remove the NEED for such HEAVY DUTY SPRING RATES to get around the race track, chances are the MISTAKE - BODILY INJURY ratio would have to come down and the tracks might not get so torn up with softer suspension not digging the ruts & rails so fast & deep as is getting done right now. Just my 2 cents worth, kick it around & talk about it while we all wait for the START VARG-ING.

@TRG36 Жыл бұрын

Race equal displacements and see what happens.

@mojavemike3060 Жыл бұрын

2strokes only class

@davidellis9092 Жыл бұрын

It did for amateur racing, can't compete with the F1 type mechanics professionals have.

@ericmiles1852 Жыл бұрын

They ruined racing. There is no question about that... go back and watch all the races before 2007... you had to have grown up before then... the racing was 10 times better... the bikes the tracks both... watch 125 races and its insane how much better the watching experience was... they changed the tracks to fit the 4stroke and it just made it that much worse.. the paris supercross was a goat trail follow the leader...

@davidciesielski8251 8 ай бұрын

I'm 6'4, 255 with gear and live and ride at 5000 feet. I don't want a 350! If they just race the smaller bikes the big bikes for the non pro real people will be like the kx500 no new nothing...90 percent of these bikes are not raced!!!!!!

@vmcmark7578 Жыл бұрын

@5:20...........""Every time they change REGULATIONS""?!?!? You know another way of saying that is ""Every time they change the .......FORMULA"" ....which involves new & different REGULATIONS from one end of the car to the other & can be RADICAL or MINISCULE but I wish that people would state it properly in as much as that is how & what the very NAME of the racing organization is all about, THE CURRENT GROUP OF RULES & REGULATIONS ARE THE ""F O R M U L A"". CAN'T WE JUST USE THE WORDS CORRECTLY?? FORMULA = CURRENT RULES/SPECS, PERIOD.

@petergohzinya8909 Жыл бұрын

Men ride two strokes

@wkymole3 Жыл бұрын

The comparison is laughable and detached from reality. If a 2 stroke 250 could compete with 450 4 strokes. Somebody would’ve done it by now.

@antfal-n-everything7154 Жыл бұрын

Electric bikes will cut the head off the 4 strokes, it shall be way more painful than the attempted 2 stroke execution.🤣😂😆2 strokes are more affordable fun

@Toddhull6185 7 ай бұрын

4 strokes ruined the sound and the smell of racing 100% .Itll be over soon and itll be all E-bikes anyway.Which will be even worse .

@MTnumber11 Жыл бұрын

Old man mindset. Lower the bar so the slow guys do better? Silly. Don't take risks you can't handle. Don't handicap the sport because there are inherent risks. Guys will die on whatever bike they end up using.