Guess not 🤔

Still more than gas and wait until the tariff changes, plus how much was the installation 30k? How long to pay it back in savings 30 years?

@@robevans8625It’s not more than gas. Heat pumps are >4 fold more effiecient than a gas boiler - therefore less than 2p per kWh. I’m on a similar tariff and save >£2k per yesr on heating. I didn’t do it for the saving, just to massively reduce my carbon footprint.

@@crm114. how big is your house to have a gas bill of 2k + I have a large 5 bed house 6 people and heated 24/7 and it’s about a grand. It’s less now since upgrading radiator sizes

@@ebebopThat includes all electricity use as well.

@@crm114. Carbon footprint lmao. 🤡 You're easily pressured, that's good to know.

There’s some good radiator heat pumps out there that will suit your home!

@@HeatGeek the issue that people in my conservation area have is nothing to be added to the property or garden that can be viewed from the street! We don’t have access to a back yard due to the way this corner property was built. So no where to site the external air source heat exchanger. Sadly the conservation zone covers the side view as well. Conservation zone rules are not good for energy efficiency where I live

​@HeatGeek guys do you have any opinions on octopus cosy 6 pump?. thunk you guys should be training there installers

Adding value to the property is meaningless unless you intend to sell it.

@@richardgregory3684 Many people sell their houses each year, having an up to date heating system would be of some value to them. Your same point could be applied to any money spent on your property, if that were the case then ‘payback time’ becomes a meaningless concept. Making heat pumps an even better choice.

@@_Dougaldog But heat pumps are sold to the public as saving them money on their bills. Evidently having a kitchen makeover is not; peopel do that for various reasons, such as it giving them pleasure, or indeed with an eye on the resale property value. Heat pumps do exactly the same job as a gas boiler so really the only sellign point of real relevance is that they'll cut your heating bills. In which case it is a very pertinent question to ask how long it will take for the (alleged) savings in bills to justify the initial capital outlay. I'm afraid that "saving the planet" is a nice sounding aspiration, but will fail on it;s own. For most people it;s just a cold, hard case of the economics. And at present, a heat pump requires a *MASSIVE* subsidy from the taxpayer to make them look even vaguely attractive. There's absolutely no way I'd fork out £10k plus when I coudl spend £2k or less on a perfectly adequate gas boiler. Even assuming I *had* the £10k in the first place. And most people don't.

@@richardgregory3684 one very relevant in favour of heat pumps is they don’t spew two Tonnes of CO2 into atmosphere each year. Another is that my heat pump has a COP (to date) of 4.2, a gas boiler at best is 0.85. Any heat pump with a COP of over 3.5 is cheaper than gas at current prices. So if well managed can cut your heating bills. Gas boilers no longer fitted in new builds in Scotland, and same in England & Wales next April. All new Gas boilers banned from 2035. So a few good selling points for heat pumps that will add value to your property, as one thing guaranteed in life, someday it will be sold. Oil & gas rely on MASSIVE subsidies from taxpayers, the major players have payed little tax over past few years.

@@_Dougaldog _one very relevant in favour of heat pumps is they don’t spew two Tonnes of CO2 into atmosphere each year_ Sorry, but to the vast majority of homeowners that is not relevant at all. You won;t sell heatpumps that way, not when they cost so much. And of course, the chances are, you heatpump will be run by electricity generated in a gas powered station. Given that renewables on the best days supply only about half out electricity. And very little on cold, windless, dark winter days...when demand will be the highest. To be truly green yu need PV panels and a big battery...which adds perhaps another £10k to the cost, and which *isn't* subsidised. _Any heat pump with a COP of over 3.5 is cheaper than gas at current prices._ But not by much - a few hundred pounds a year at best. You will not convince people to shell out for heat pumps with that either. _So if well managed can cut your heating bills_ But not by much. _Gas boilers no longer fitted in new builds in Scotland, and same in England & Wales next April. All new Gas boilers banned from 2035_ And new homes are built around that - they will e designed with the necessary insulation, piping, large radiatiors (or ideal;ly, underfly heating). That's very different to retorfitting a house built in perhaps the Victorian era, which were designed with open coal fires in mind. And I suspect there will be a HUGE demand for gas boiler fitting in 2034.Assuming that deadline remains, and I suspect it won.t. Why do you think heat pump installation numbers are so low? Because they're incredibly expensive, disruptive to install and the savings in bills are marginal cmpared to the initial outlay. Consumers are not fools. And paying every one of the roughly six million homes a £7,500 subsidy is not going to happen. That;s before you even get to the costs of installing new generative capacity, bew lines and pylons etc to power it all. And all that to save perhaps one sixth of the less than 1% of global emissions that are generated in Britain, when India and China are throwing up three or four coal power stations *a week*. What Britain does or not is negligible.

OVO are promoting their partnership with Heatgeek franchise in selling their heat pumps. "We're excited to announce we're taking another step in our journey to better energy - we're working with our partners Heat Geek to install heat pumps."

@@_Dougaldog that’s good news 👍

Be good if MCS guaranteed the install first so all these people getting shoddy installs have some help

Yeah, would be nice if they included A2A but I'm pretty sure they won't. They should, but the thinking is they don't want to encourage cooling in summer because they don't want more energy draw. it's grid infrastructure that's a problem and of course their CO2 targets.

@@Burtis89 Highlight any shortfalls to MCS, I'm sure they'd be more than interested to fail any shoddy installs not up to MCS requirements. It would only take one bad job report to trash a cowboy.

@@markfernandes2467 Most A2A systems, at least Daikin I'm certain of anyway, allow the installer to lock out cooling operation with dip switches in the outdoor unit. If gov is that worried about cooling use just require that as a commissioning step. Read a report recently that 55% of UK homes experience overheating during the summer months.. so there is a real argument that actually A2A and allowing cooling operation could well be beneficial. If the grid is set up to handle the load from heating use through the winter, cooling use in the summer should be a non-issue since the load is less on the system than in the winter aside from on the few obscenely hot days. You can also lock the set points on many systems to prevent people cranking their units down to 16c or something silly

@@patlaroche9118 Would be crazy for government bureaucrats to tell ppl to scupper a product function it's built to do. It's in your house. i get what you're saying though. In any case, we all know everyone would re enable it after the fact, (and they should, same for set points) so... On the grid, it's more the sub stations and transformers and from street, to house/apartment block wiring that's the issue, not so much production capacity itself in the case of summer cooling, as that's peak solar production time too. You have to have HP installs signed off by your supplier tho, and if HPs of any type get common, a lot of upgrades will need doing to this infrastructure. Adding A2A will enable more HPs quicker, so this ain't great from that perspective. Also increased Co2 is not the goal so AC cooling is not going to be promoted (again, wrongly imo) but that's the MCS thinking. You can do similar with fan assist hydronic emitters, which do get BUS support but no where near as good solution or as simple as just going A2A If you can, just go A2W and be done with it. A2A won't ever get the grant I don't think.

That’s not extra.. that’s the ONLY cost we ad. We are more transparent then many providers currently

Sorry, I'm confused. On your website it's shows, for me, the heat geek guarantee is £2040 on top of parts and labour. That's extra isn't it? Sorry if I've misunderstood.

@@HeatGeek I agree with your approach and in the service your offering there are so many variables that I think the guarantee way of working is better than a install and forget approach. Transparency in quoting is something I appreciate. of course not everyone thinks like me and you'd be best to hear out bobs view too if other feel like that

@@sunil237 I think he means that's the heat-geek portion of the money. The rest goes to the installer? Heat geek is a fairly small company with a lot of independent installers (AIUI). Not like British Gas employing a load of installers directly. I must admit I'm kind of guessing here, but I think that's how it works.

@@bobsmith-dn1xw they are completely transparent, you have guarantee in every product price. If for example for every 100 TV you sold, one comes back broken, and you have to replace it (or fix), you increase the price by 1% to cover that. If for every 100 TVs sold by a company, 50TV are warranted, you would need to increase the price by 50% from "manufacturing" to cover that. So HG guarantee of £2K for labor of £5K allows you to guess about the quality of installations and number of callbacks to fix the efficiency.

Excellent - and you’ll be helping to drive the UK towards net zero and reducing dependency on gas imports (especially those that fund questionable and undemocratic regimes)

So unless your boiler breaks it not worth the finical investment in that case, I would save around 100 a month if I averaged it, but the install cost are still to high for me, until the boiler breaks

I wouldn’t do anything until your boiler breaks down.

@@AdrianColes great apart from a portion (in most cases) of the electricity comes from coal and gas powered stations with a terrible efficiency rating.

​@@AdrianColes he would just finance overpriced heat pumps, so vaillant can pay more bonuses. Heat pump itself could not cost more than £1500. Heat pumps are not new technology, they are everywhere, why heat pump pool heater cost £900, it is almost the same device. Installers are greedy also and "in money making market", HG charges £2+k on top the installation for "HG guarantee", which says a lot as it almost half of the "labor cost", so looks like every third installation has to be redone. My house has microbore, and I was quoted to change it all pipes + radiators, otherwise no heat pump. But surprise my boiler is fine heating my house with +38C flow temps (has to cycle as overpowered) and -2 outside, but looks like heat pump can't. Crappy controls from manufacture and another insecure cloud and app I do not need. Would rather do MVHR + air to air, pricetag is the same, but you get better air quality in the house.

What is your annual gas consumption? And is it your only source of heating? As 1kW heat loss for a 3-bed is getting on for or even at passive house standards. Especially for the UK.

Naa it will be fine. Use the 3.5kw model though

Heat pumps are 250-500% efficient. Electric boilers 99.9% max. So what ever you might spend running an electric boiler divide by between 2.5 and 5 to find out how much a heat pump costs to run

@@HeatGeek Thanks for the info. Even at the conservative end I work that out to be a £1200 yearly reduction in bills!!! Now I just need to save up the money so I can get these savings.

We're constantly looking at prices and how we lay out costs. Thanks for the feedback!

@@HeatGeek that's great. I want to go with a geek but it stung when I saw it.

The website predicted I would save £90 a year over my current set up. The payback was 100 years. If I do it all myself the payback was still 40 years. (I’m an installer) Heat pumps have a place but not for everyone.

@@HeatGeek Please can you say how soon? My boiler is being condemned and I want to replace it with a heat pump system. Like the user above, I've got a quote from your website, but it said I have to pay over £2k for this guarantee, that's 13% of the total bill. I admit this put me off. If this will cost will reduce soon, when and by how much? P.S. great channel, been binge watching loads of your vids, very informative and entertaining, thanks 👍

Not everything is about payback ​@@ebebop

So the title is just click bait. The actual content of the video is that they are “guaranteeing” that the cost of running a heat pump is as low as the cost of running a gas boiler, after the initial investment.

I tried the tool too. It isn’t getting up to date data on properties. Our house was renovated 10 years ago and the original 1950’s data is returned when you enter the address. No way of getting an accurate estimate of cost based on what we have now.

I have a 6kW Daikin HP which replaced 17 year old broken boiler & 40 year old radiators & plumbing, 60 year old HWC. 50mm loft insulation, double glazing & 75mm cavity wall insulation. Cosy as toast running at 34C flow temperature. below zero a few nights recently, no problems. Standard 28p tariff dropping to 24p in April (will be changing soon to cheaper Octopus or OVO when they take Daikin), 13kW a day for heating & HW over February/March, 8kW on warmer days ( SCOP overpast four weeks on heating is 4.2. To me, less than £4k (after grant) for new radiators, new plumbing, HW cylinder & 6kW HP. But a relatively easy install on 2 bed semi bungalow with suspended floor.

do the maths for the payback time for a gas or oil boiler. it will be longer than that unless the old one is awfull but you swap them because they get worn out

The saving can be massively improved with something like agile octopus... for our system it will be cost equal to gas in bout 12 years. In which time we should save 25 tones of co2 emmisions. But gas will increase in cost relative to electricity as gov reduce gas subsidies. So the cost equal point is likely to come sooner.

Probably be best if you insulated your home regardless

@@Sean_S1000You dont need massive insulation with a gas combi it produces so much heat as I have read those with an HP that don't have insulation two feet thick, the home is cold and the electricity cost is horrific. And remember electricity is what 4x or 5x the price of gas

@@robevans8625So you're happy to spend more money on gas instead of insulating your house properly? Doesn't matter how you heat your home, the less insulation you have, the more it's going to cost you to heat.

@@egocdThe point is with a gas boiler insulation isn't critical with a HP it is.

@@robevans8625 in a lot of cases now especially with high temperature heat pumps insulation isn't critical for heat pumps to work either. Just with the spark gap the way it is in the UK you are unlikely to save money with a high temp heat pump vs a gas boiler unless you include other factors like solar panels and battery storage in the mix.

All changing soon

@@HeatGeek Iiiiinnnnteresting!

@@HeatGeek I see my proposal (still in progress since February 21st) that the HG Guarantee has gone down by over £2000,00 but the cost of the parts and labour have gone up by about the same amount!

you hit the nail on the head

Roger is a skeptic not ignorant. He is a heating engineer and has also fitted a number of heat pumps. Being ignorant is not listening to both sides of a debate, do you ?

@@haydnlawrence8167 look up ignorant and then come back to me. Roger said the Chinese make our heat pumps and that they consume large amounts of coal for power generation therefore cancelling out heat pump carbon savings. He is ignorant because he never checked to see if Chinese heat pump factories were powered by coal or renewables. He simply took two facts and made an ignorant conclusion. Harsh....but accurate.

@@billysmart24830732 Many Vaillant & Mitsubishi are manufactured in UK, my Daikin Altherma was manufactured in Czech Republic; given that HP's have been manufactured for past 60 years plus, it is less likely that China has a controlling foothold in HP market.

​@@haydnlawrence8167when it comes to heat pumps, I would take what Roger says with a large pinch of salt. His rants on heat pumps are based on ones he's installed where the customers weren't happy. However, this is down him as the installer as the technology is proven. Rather than admit that he was underqualified to install them, Roger just decided to bash the whole heat pump industry instead. At least he's now trying to redress the balance a bit with his colloborations with Heat Geek.

Depends if you have spare solar power or battery capacity. If you have the spare battery capacity then you can charge during the night and use that energy during the day to run the heat pump, thereby using the night tariff for heat during the day. Obviously solar + battery can directly run a heat pump as it's electric much like your EVs. People do these things because it shouldn't be any more expensive than installing gas central heating when you factor in the government grants. That and it's ultimately better for the planet. More savings to be had as well when gas prices go up or electricity prices go down. It seems what these guys are charging though is about the average installation fee for some reason. At least that's what people here are saying.

Heating is required at times of year where the solar is at its weakest. Typically in the depths of winter in the UK you are lucky if you get 4 useful hours of solar. Even with totally clear conditions the low sun provides at best 50% output. Overcast conditions in winter result in negligible energy production. The size of battery required and associated inverter/chargers to avoid peak rate with a heat pump are much bigger than that required for the rest of the home electrical demand making them uneconomical. Remember you lose 10-15% combined losses each time you charge and invert. If you are replacing an oil or gas boiler anyway then much of the capital investment of heat pumps can be offset using the government grant but the difference in fuel cost types needs to be much more pronounced if customers are going to be convinced to move across to heat pumps. My last oil boiler lasted 25 years and my present one is only 5 years old so even with grants a 2p difference per unit is never going to work financially. The investment in batteries is still quite expensive. I have managed to make it work by making up a 30kwh battery from cells I bought directly from China for about £4000 but this doesn't help the average customer who typical pays twice that for a 13kwh battery.

@@nigelcharles511 I think it very much depends on the size of heat pump you need. Some have a startup current of only about 13A. The running current being a bit under 6A. That's for a 6kW heat pump. So it wouldn't significantly increase the size of your inverter especially if you can use grid power or a boost rating for the initial startup current.

I am just going by the overall efficiencies quoted. I have a fairly small reasonably insulated house that consumes about 900 litres of oil per year (10,000kwh) costing me £630. I have a modern condensing boiler this provides about 9,500kwh net. As most of this energy is used during the 3 coldest months of winter I estimate that I would be using 80kwh/day during the coldest periods of winter. For a heat pump of 400% efficiency that would be about 20kwh of which 16kwh would be during peak rate. Add to that a daily load of 8kwh of which 6kwh is during peak rate, a battery would need to supply around 22kwh daily during the depths of winter. To allow for inefficiencies this would require off peak generation of about 24kwh which, even with quite a long off peak period, would need a fairly powerful charger. To avoid total depletion a battery of about 30kwh of capacity would probably be appropriate.

@@nigelcharles511 I was more making the point that you wouldn't need a bigger inverter necessarily. I can imagine the battery capacity requirements would be quite high, and it seems you've done the maths on that yourself. I would presume though that at some point that boiler will need replacing.

Hi Tom. Could you share what size install and how many rads etc your installation requires. Sorry to be nosey but I am curious how much things cost.

For a start the government gives grants of up to £7500 for installing a compliant heat pump. Secondly that price is stupid high considering what a heat pump actually costs. The actual unit costs less than £5000 for all but the largest of heat pumps. Somebody is trying to rip you off here it seems.

You get a grant from the government to install a heat pump. I would nevertheless shop around and look for lower quotes and longer warranties. Heat pumps themselves are not that expensive, it seems some people are charging through the nose for what should be straight forward plumbing and electrical work. The concept isn't that new, all that's really changed is that it's gotten more efficient and easier to use/install. It's obviously more popular given concerns with energy and fossil fuels.

SCOP is weighted towards the winter months. And is effectively Annual Heat output divided by Annual Electrical consumption (for heating), so the bulk of it is heating in winter, with some of it being the days that don't need as much heating. There is nothing stopping you asking the manufacturer for the breakdown of the COP tests per outside temperature of their unit at what flow temperature, which they should have.

See our video called “how heat pumps are over 100% efficient”

Heat Geek, You ignore basic schoool level physics, no device can be 100% efficient. You cannot use the units of electricty consumed by the heater as a base for calculation. You must use the energy input quantity to make the electrcial units used.

Just use CoP of 2.8 if >100% triggers you. I remember the days whenever gas boilers were >100% efficient for a little while when they introduced condensing boilers that could capture latent heat and had to change how they were measured from conventional efficiency to absolute.

@@iareid8255 Resistive heaters are 100% efficient (COP = 1), all energy ends up as heat, even if it's photons of lights bouncing off the walls transferring energy. That is a simple basic fact.

@@_Dougaldog that is the problem, your idea of fact is wrong. Where did the idea that resistive heating is 100% efficient come from? There are different forms of resistive heating with different applications. Some are better at direct radiated heat for bodies rather than air, fan heaters warm the air as well as anyone in the airflow. None are 100% efficient. All are powered by electricity with it's losses from generation to consumptiopn, ball park about 60 to 70% loss.

You are a fossil if you think that.

They can work, unfortunately most of them don’t.

What a convincing argument against heat pumps.

@@ebebop that's not the fault of the heat pumps though.

@@ebebop data please. Mine runs at over 400% . So my data 100% work very well.