Death Guard have some really strong options, one that comes to mind is Seekers w Nemesis bolters, getting to move and shoot 72" will put a dent in enemy HSSs and take out vexilla and sgts with artificer armor.

@@jtrain9926 also moving volkite calivers could be very potent!

@@LeopoldZ yeah basically any and all heavy weapon teams in Dark Reaping are going to riiiiiip

For me vehicles also count as stationary for shooting.

Yeah, I'd have to agree that Hearesy does undersell the DG legion trait a bit imo. I mean of course these things are subjective and experience dependant but counting as stationary for shooting purposes and more easily passing through terrain can definitely be situationally powerful.

I'm curious, does this mean that maybe Salamanders go up from A Bit Weaker to the lower end of Balanced? With Vulkan giving his entire army Stubborn, plus Pyroclasts and Support Sqauds w/ flamers becoming line, they hit both of those things you've found to be incredibly important

Thanks John!

Yeh agree, I dont know why WB players seem very unhappy with what they got - gal vorbak terrify me, ashen circle are fab, and warpfire weapons are great! Thanks for the kind words!

Thanks, very much appreciated!

Quite a few of them are great! Theyre once a game though obviously so they contribute to the power of a legion but dont define it as much as other things. That said, I did factor them in for sure. Sometimes though, to stop videos from getting too long, some stuff has to be cut out for brevity - thats more of a reason for not talking about them much!

@@Hearesy I can't speak for others but I would watch an hour+ long video, I usually break it up into chunks throughout the day, continuing a video on my next break gives me something to look forward too!

Thanks Ray!

Hardcore, man!

Well, except not actually. Each Advanced Reaction of Legion are "ONCE PER BATTLE". So no, you can't turn off atleast once a turn a lascannons volley...

Its once per game, but its a very good reaction! Not sure what you mean about stacking banners though. I do think min 6 ld is nice, meaning a big loss isnt a guaranteed sweep - it certainly isnt a useless trait!

Good choices! I went with Alpha Legion. :)

No such rule, luckily!

@@Hearesy oh thats good then :)

This was going to be my plan - not sure if there's fluff backing it up, but it is undeniably cool.

Agree nl with fear and how they can debuff, I can see nl doing really well

They are almost completely busted! Spam plenty of Night Raptors packed with upgraded melee weapons for some armour piercing, alongside some Scouts or Recon squads with Nemesis Bolters, then laugh as you pick out all the squad leaders in shooting removing the higher leadership of the Sergent as well as causing pinning tests on a low leadership as you keep the enemy in Fear range. Then when the Night Raptors charge in, Bloody Murder kicks in giving them another attack - when taken with dual Lightning Claws, they will end up with 5A each on the charge at I5 (Sudden Strike (1)), WS5, AP3, +1 to wound, Shred and Rending(6+)! Absolutely bonkers...

All of this is discussed in detail in my Emperor’s Children video!

@@Hearesy a second thought: tier lists are fine, but what we really need in the long run is a matchup matrix. just something general like "favorable," "unfavorable," or "neutral" for each legions chances against each other.

A missile doesnt make you “heavy”, only unit subtypes can do that. Vets would still be Talons. Unless im missing something!

@@Hearesy I don't have the rules yet, just watching other videos on KZfaq till I can get the rules and lists. But I saw that Heavy Weapon squads have the 'heavy' subtype on their datasheet entry, so they don't count as talons as far as I can make out. I was just presuming that any infantry model with a heavy weapon would then gain the heavy subtype as well.

Ah yep it doesnt work like that.

So my heavy support squads can infiltrate?

No, because they are heavy. But the heavy wep in a vet squad isnt heavy, so they can!

Laughs in eskaton

Fists basic trait is really strong but they dont have as much synergy with their WLTs, RoW and specialist units. So you're kind of building to exploit your legion trair or building into your other stuff.

@@jtrain9926 that's a good point. Still strong but it pushes you down a certain path quite a lot. I'm trying to piece together my raven guard lost atm and I'm struggling with our synergy too 😫

@@RavenGuard119 what are the RG traits? I only have the traitor astartes book

@@jtrain9926 we have 3 different units types , line infantry is hawks 6 up shrouded form 8 inches away. Talons are dreads and terminators re roll 1s to wound. And we have a cavalry one that I think os also a version of shrouded

@@RavenGuard119 that seems pretty good, everything gets something beneficial, tactical squads getting shrouded 6+ is nice, not sure if it stacks with 6+ fnp for Heart of the Legion, but anything that makes you tougher in shooting is good bc you're stubborn in melee. Reroll 1s to wound is soooooo good though, especially with rending weapons.

Flamer template. The teardrop-shaped one.

@@Hearesy Thank you for the feedback. Does that auto hit ?

It does!

@@Hearesy Alright damn !

I’ll add that to the future ideas list! But absolutely it will, yes

I was sort of making a point by having the top and bottom ones there with nothing in them :)

Great Legion choice! They look so cool. Thanks for the compliments, very much appreciated!

I think people (especially night lords players!) will realise this once they figure out how to play them and get some games in. They also seem so interesting to play im really tempted to play them!

Sevatar is a combat monster who will krump just about everyone (including Lucius) except Sigismund and the primarchs, but the NL special units and rites are pretty trash.

Sounds awesome!

Great to hear!

Only the movement element of pinning, which is nice, but not the rest of it. And thanks!

Alpha Legion have a wing too. If they want one!

Thats exactly why, ultimately, I decided to do the video. What it shows (assuming Im correct or at least in the area!) is that the game looks great and people dont actually need to worry about “Tiers” that much.

Because those are only space marines, it like comparing 40k SM even without codex-supplements 40k has many more much more different, factions

The problem is loads of the legions need FAQs where their traits are broken or unbalanced like scars being worse at bikes than night lords Tsons being the only legion where you can shoot away their legion trait and ‘poster boy’ legions being broken busted as usual

I dont think the differences/problems are *that* bad but id for sure be upset if I was a white scars player at how little any of their stuff has to do with their classic units like bikes. Also why do DA have 100 pages of rules? Haha. All fun, not too far apart. Hopefully some tuning over time!

@@Hearesy don’t mind me I’m just a salty Tsons player who are almost unplayable in this new Ed which really sucks which Magnus being as powerful as a wet cloth

Same.

Interceptor doesnt let you shoot infiltrators. Augury scanners just linit how far you can move, but even so, forward deployment is forward deployment.

Oops! I just looked through the rule book to reread those; somehow I’d gotten the wrong impression re: Interceptor and thought it was a response to Infiltrators. I think the thing Interceptor + Augury Scanners work well against is Deep Strike assaults. In the case of Raven Guard, that’d most likely be with your Dark Fury jump-packers, but tbh, that could apply to any Legion with a whole variety of units. Looks like I’ll still be able to Infiltrate, though. Thanks for the correction. 😃

No worries! Lots to read and plenty to miss!

Good points all - fine to have differing opinions! Regarding ironfire, we’ll see. If Medusas and Basilisks have ap5 for example it isnt going to be that great

@@Hearesy very true, but if GW messes up here, Artillery IW (which is honestly the most thematic way to play em) will be a terror on the table once again. Fists might need a bit of a nerf as well down the line as close to unkillable line units is a bit absurd. But mostly hope we see a few buffs for some of the weaker legions down the line in campaign books (mostly White Scars as that is what I play).

I think different people like different things and we should all respect that. I think for heresy, you should definitely be heavily factoring in things that arent “power” but there’s no harm in considering what your models do on the board too… personally I do both!

Yep! Although they do get wrecked by dreadnoughts. I fully intend to do this. Haha.

also fury of the legion on tacts even if you move is great.

I think I said in the vid I dont rate their trait as low as some people do but I do feel its overall impact is a bit less than most, and also that i dont think anyone would be wrong to bump them up a tier! Nothing wrong with grave wardens just dont think theyre super good either. All that said I definitely agonised over where to put DG more than any other legion, so i absolutely dont hard disagree!

@@Hearesy will point out, disembarking means you don't count as remaining as stationary as this is counted as an 'alternative form of movement' (would make drop pod assault really strong otherwise). also interesting to note that Reinforced death guard vehicles are immune to the effects of crew shaken and crew stunned

Urgh thats a shame, I’d missed “disembarking” in that paragraph. Poor death guard cant catch a break.

Thanks Chris!

I think I read somewhere all the exemplary battle stuff will be useable. A lot of those things you mentioned should br coming back.

@@jaworski105 they were not exemplary battles so I am not holding my breath.

This list shouldnt influence what you like no matter what tier its in! So if anyone asks, just tell them Tier Lists suck or something, whilst tearing them apart with rend 5+ claws :)

Although, in 2.0, all Iliastus Assault Cannons are Assault, so the suspensor webs are not special to Angels Tears, and they have 'Gets Hot' when used in a Reaction.

Like I said though, not THAT much difference that they wont be fun and effective! Just make those firedrakes do all the work :)

Classic engineering problem. Unfortunately, I’m an engineer :)

@@Hearesy yes. I was alluding to the classic XKCD standards comic :)

I was with you :p

Tier lists are absolutely the most subjective thing. I wouldnt claim mine to be absolutely correct, but I’d stand by most (all?) of the lists ive seen so far, being waaaaay off the mark. Either way, discussing stuff on the internet would be boring if we all agreed! Really appreciated the comments man, and thanks for the kind words. Look forward to having more discussions!

Maybe, but he is potentially the best force multiplier of all the primarchs

He's a better fighter than Lorgar, and is better force multiplier than anyone.

@@SquareMoon44 Sadly, not anymore. His best use now is with squad of firedrakes and two melta-chainfist leviathans, and he is pretty bad otherwise.

@@batteredwarrior Not anymore, statistically he has 5% chance to off lorgar. Also, overpriced like there is no tomorrow.

I’d disagree with that, I think they’re very good when you have the supporting stuff to make use of them! (as per my NL video) Certainly not cheap units, but generally I think NL’s kit is very good whether you like the uniques or not. And very interesting to play!

Agree strongly on the Night Lords unique units being very cost ineffective. Terror squads and Raptors paying a premium for special rules they then get again from rites/Curze really hurts them. Compare Dawnbreakers cost for cost with Night Raptors and the difference is horrific - they will create more morale issues just by killing more things than Raptors and they come with artificer armour and super power weapons built in while being cheaper. The fact the Chain weapons (barring headsman's axe) are overpriced and just worse than claws means if you want a decent Night Lords force you probably want to avoid using anything Night Lords unique (which is crap, tbh). Curze himself having a really weird movement system he shares with nothing else in the army means there's no good delivery system for him. If he had anything to help him survive solo he could be pretty cool, as it is you're banking on the enemy not having a morale boosting primarch or a lot of stubborn units/vehicles/dreads. He gets his teeth kicked in if he meets 9 primarchs out of 10 and especially so if they have decent elite terminators with them (which he cannot get as Contekar are... niche to put it very charitably). Night Lords are strong if you leave all the Night Lords stuff on the shelf.

@@MrZakalwe Yeah, there's a pleathora of issues with Night Lords in the new edition that I've talked about at length in multiple places. The worst responses I've gotten were all from reddit where's peoples' go to response is to just stick their heads in the sand. The Contekar have always been one of the weakest terminator units because of their lack of specialization and being locked into tartaros armour. The Raptors and Terror Squads have decent statlines but not for the exorbinant points cost you're paying for them. Both our rites of war are awful. No beating around the bush there. Neither give scoring to special units. Terror Assault actively hinders your own army if you don't buy night vision for each unit (for Night Lords, seriously). Swift Blade looks interesting but again no scoring and bikes are all T4. I know it's meant to synergize with the Jadhek warlord trait but the restrictions and relatively few benefits don't make it worth it outside of lore-based armies (a Night Lords biker gang is pretty cool). Our legion armoury is alright but like I said earlier, is outclassed by the Dark Angels and certain other legions in almost every aspect. Curze is just weird to me. You noticed his bizarre movement profile which is something I keep seeing people gloss over. It makes it impossible for him to actually join a unit without somebody's movement getting gimped. He slaughters infantry (what doesn't?) and provides some much needed bonuses (why the whole legion doesn't come stock with night vision is beyond me). It's worth pointing out that Curze making his legion immune to fear is not the same as making them fearless, so they'll still suffer morale, pinning, and combat resolution tests. His combat capability in primarch fighting is decidedly near the bottom of the pack and that's for a few reasons. The first one is that the 'brutal' rule is dumb and whoever has it automatically gets a massive advantage. It's a match of the have's and have nots. Second, the fact that he's only S6 means he'll struggle to wound his brothers even with the TFM bonus and shred. It also makes him cower away from dreadnoughts or any vehicle with an armour value higher than 12. The third issue is his psychic power. It's either pointless or useless most of the time. The only situation in which Curze would actually need a 4+++ would be when fighting massed terminators with AP2 weapons or another primarch. But his power has a 42% chance of failure and is invalidated completely by anything with instant death, murderous strike, or S12 (Pert/Ferrus). The obvious fix to me is either make his talons +1 strength or change his psy power to let him rerolled failed saves ala first edition precognition. It would fit his lore of being probably the most prescient non-daemon character in the entire setting. Giving him both changes however would probably make him too oppresive. Sevatar is a melee beatstick who can kill pretty much anything short of Sigismund or a primarch. Just keep him away from instant death and anti-psyker stuff (Curze too for that matter). The big loss for Sev is him losing master of ambush and instead having his new warlord trait being the only way to get teleport transponders, something NL used to get stock before. I suspect he'll get the ability to take Atramentar as troops back whenever they get new rules. Speaking of, if the Atramentar are still locked into tartaros armour (even though in the lore they always wear cataphractii or indomitus) like in first edition whenever they rerelease, either they or the Contekar will be completely redundant because the Contekar are stuck in tartaros now too. The only other thing that bugs me that's worth mentioning is that one of our three warlord traits actively incentivises you for not taking Night Lords and bringing Sons of Horus instead. Dafuq? Other issues are more related to the game's general rules. The reaction system massively incentives gunline armies (shooting three times in your opponents turn with full BS, because why not. Sounds balanced or something) something the Night Lords have never really been good at. And while I'm on the topic, they also just got hugely shafted in 40k with the new CSM codex too. Buf when GW hasn't given 40k Night Lords a new model since 3rd edition, is anyone really surprised?

Most tier lists use 5 or so tiers. If you create tiers with the specific intention of using them all, you’re not judging things on their merits, you’re judging them on presupposition. It would be a biased exercise.

Not everything has stubborn or Ld9. Also, Telepathy librarians dont care about Stubborn.

@@Hearesy sure not all but most Terminators and Legion Elite units are. Also all Cavalry, Automata, Dreadnoughts and Daemons are immune to pinning.

Yeah agree with nl being top tier too they are huge with fear bombs

Different opinions make the world go round! And for sure, the way you play this game, who you play it with, etc will make a difference. I guess its up to you to decide on who you think is more accurate. I’ll withhold my opinion on other youtubers and their wild opinions :)

Thanks for your feedback!

Oh and I forgot, strength ten power fists that aren't specialist so for 5pts more then a normal fist you're getting a 33% increase in attacks and a 25% increase in strength and you can put that on a sargeant in every squad or on every terminator. Your consul making your heavy weapon teams scoring, the main gun on the kratus basically being unable to miss, having whole squads of assault cannons a every warlord trait being better or on par with the very best warlord traits in the game any random 3x of those buffs would make them better then any other legion

Imperial Fists is literally just deciding to play the game on easy mode. At least Dark Angels requires a good understanding of target acquisition.

Or… none of us are…. *wink wink*

Hydra Dominatus.

They are preeeety much up at the top and if I’m off a bit they could easily be a tier up!

Really? Other than the dawnbreakers (which look pretty bonkers) I feel like they don't have a ton of stuff going for them. They suffer from the same "if they get charged they don't get anything" like EC, but have no survivability like their -1 to hit and special rule to mitigate damage. The Termies look pretty weak to me, esp for their price and having to tell your opponent where the deepstrike will land is a pretty horrible thing. Sangui buffing WS of everything with a jumppack that charges is crazy scary but without him I don't know... And I don't really rate their special weapons that high in most situations (other than maybe against dreads) as they don't have ap2 and will cost the same as a fist which will instant-death stuff anyways. But that's my theoretical opinion and I haven't played a lot of Warhammer over the last years so it's super possible that I'm just not seeing synergies and stuff. I'd love a video deep Diving in their rules and changing my opinion though :)

I think they’ll shake out to be really good yeh. Its easy to get your charges with jump packs and though their bonus wont always be in effect its a very powerful bonus. Also their RoWs are good and I do rate their weapons. Im by no means claiming 100% accuracy though. I look forward to revising this list in a few months after lots of gaming!

@@Hearesy I feel like my reply is being taken a bit too serious. Blood Angels is and always has been my Marines army. Hence why I said it, because for me they are the best.

I knew that, but this is the internet :)

Contenkar can take Bloody Murder as an upgrade can they not?

@@jaworski105 nope, I thought their special rule of being a non compulsory hq unit might give them that but they don't have independent character rule. Which means if Sevetar joins the squad he can't use bloody murder.

GW has always seen Night Lords as disposable. The fact that they haven't gotten a new 40k model in 20 years should make that obvious.

Seriously though I did quite enjoy this list. I'm a guy who's getting back into 40K after a long absence -- the fact 30K is even a game at all blows my mind, awesome new plastic models aside. So I'm certainly interested! You got yourself a new sub my friend

Thank you!

Nothing in here about power gaming sir! I’d suggest watching the video!

@@Hearesy people want to know what's best so they can come into the scene and play what's strong, but you just end up with a shitty scene of everyone playing what's good rather than making the scene good. You can't have a great heresy event with 20 alpha legion players. It's not about what legion is best it's about bringing the narrative to life on the table and playing to your legion's unique way of waging war. This kind of tiered ranking just encourages the wrong approach to the game.

I think gatekeeping the game like that is what encourages poor play. Its not wrong to discuss what units do and how good they are. Only by knowing these things can you self moderate effectively; judging by the amount of “narrative” heresy events I saw with every army running 3-5 medusae, spamming selhmet or AV14, and more, tier lists wont do anything to the format that wasnt there before. Knowledge will let people solve those problems. Gatekeeping and shouting about 40k players ruining the game, definitely will!

@@Hearesy There are two different game systems, if they have the same culture and dynamics, then what's the point in the separation? For something to have a unique identity it by definition is at the inclusion of some characteristics and exclusion of others. There are some reasonable differences to the settings. Don't bring a tournament mindset to the heresy.

Don't have to see. It's blatantly obvious that gunline spam is going to be hideously oppresive while melee armies are going to get shot to pieces. I'm not shelling out $210 for new rule books when they already suck.

@@manofthewest5395 Funny I think with how fast things move and combined with some reactions melee armys assaulting out of DS or Flank will be "the metta". IF are borderline broken because of warders and stone gauntlet. hands down the best RoW in the game, I would love to talk about it if you disagree. The loss of AP 2/1 large blasts make gunline less potent. but high volume, high strength shots like the culven(up from4 shots to 5) and units like tyrants are fucked RN yea.

@@jiveturky3000 Gunlines already disproportionately benefit from the reaction system. IF's bonuses to shooting just make it even more broken. I suspect Iron Warriors and Death Guard will be almost as equally oppresive.

@@manofthewest5395 True enough, we shall see wont we.

​@@jiveturky3000 I've been playing games vs a decent IF player and the main sauce is that their reaction eats charge bonuses for combat and phallanx warders in the stone gauntlet (plus fafnir) are a very powerful wall that's hard to punch through while the rest of the legion goes brrr. as for melee vs shooting, I think a shooty army needs either a couple of good melee units to counter punch, some sacrificial tac marines, or both. Otherwise they explode when melee happens. That and most of my friends aren't mashing the retreat reaction and positioning their frontline in ways that limits their use of it since you must run directly away (straight line, unlike if it said maximum distance away which would allow diagonals.)

Thanks for your feedback!

As someone who clowns on stone gauntlet on the regular, just no

He’s definitely up there!

I believe the word is 'broken'.

did they make him better than russ now ffs