Hello you beauties. Access all episodes 10 hours earlier than KZfaq by Subscribing on Spotify - spoti.fi/2LSimPn. Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 Intro 00:53 Rob’s PhD Thesis 09:30 The Male Warrior Hypothesis 17:45 Are Men the Cause of Tribalism? 23:05 Chimp Aggression is 100x Human Aggression 29:23 Why Women Liking Dad-Bods Offends Men 47:35 Is Formidability in Men More Attractive Than Appearance? 54:58 Are Women More Attractive the More They Are Respected? 1:01:11 The Male Monkey Dance 1:12:25 Insights on Male Aggression from the Bourne Movies 1:19:56 Where to Find Rob

Very interesting the part about how males within the in group show more aggression, but then more cooperation when faced with an outside threat. Reminds me of a saying common in the service, "I'll trust you with my life, but not my wife".

29:30 regarding women liking dad bods. I think part of the reason men get angry at women who claim to love dad bods is because they may think they're being gaslit. Mens dating prospects increase as they get into shape not vice versa.

Male admiration feeds directly into status, which females are absolutely interested in.

She will partner dadbod to avoid competition and upkeep certain power dynamics within relationship. But once in a while she will seek out what she actually wants.

Sexual success is primarily related to how aggressive and confident a man is at approaching women. It’s not like all men approach women equally and are then rejected by women based on looks and status. Most men barely approach at all. Approaching attractive women has always been associated with great danger. Being muscular with high testosterone makes a man more confident at dealing with any danger and as such also approaches and flirts with more women.

There is no question that on Twitter there was a strong correlation between people with account photos wearing masks and the moral busybody type. Absolutely.

This conversation reminds me of a line from the movie Act of Valor..."the worst thing about growing old is that other men stop seeing you as dangerous "

The idea of women not knowing what they actually want or are attracted to in a man ties directly to what the general female response was to Jordan Peterson when he first came about. If you asked these women of their ideal man, or even described it to them; highly intelligent, highly educated, highly successful, chivalrous, stands by his convictions, acts out his beliefs etc. they would be head-over-heels. They couldn't stand the sight of him. Makes me realize how many guys were right about "whatever she says, don't do that".

This made my day!!!!! Happy Thanksgiving to you Chris and bless you man - this content is so vital for us.

Congrats on your PhD Rob 🥳 Another great episode Chris! 🧠🙌

Strangely encouraging conversation. Thank you.

This makes me think of hockey goons. They've done studies on men who fight, and most often the most violent men are the most protective and nurturing

love this guest could listen to him all day

The reason that men don’t like it when women say they prefer dad-bods is actually very simple: it’s a lie. LOL.

I actually thing that the dad bod issue is relatively simply without too much biological background. Men simply don't trust women because their displayed preferences are in stark contrast to their stated ones, and I wouldn't take women saying that seriously at all. The only parallel is to preferring more reasonably attractive women to 10/10s because the 10s are simply more intimidating and require a high level of confidence for you to actually believe (and keep believing) she is also attracted to you

Chris, I absolutely agree with your assessment of women's perception of "dad bods". To many women, a high value man is not stereo typically fit or wealthy, but rather a high value man is one who shows traits of percieved higher likely hood of fidelity. This translates into sincere sexual attraction. Which is a prime environment of safety in which to enjoy and explore your sexuality. People often see what they think of as "mis matched" pairings physically, (thinking he must be wealthy etc...) when in reality the woman is happy to have attained her highest value preferences in her mate. There is no greater flex among certain groups of women than to have attained a faithful mate.

Thanks Chris... Happy Thanksgiving !!!!

Hi Chris! It would be really interesting to attach the Thesis from the doctors that you bring to Modern Wisdom! Thanks for the podcast again!

Regarding the Jason Bourne ethics of fighting and valor: The sort of unspoken "rules" of fighting have to do with recognizing and abiding by the logic around escalation of tension, threats, and use of violent force to resolve a conflict. As you pointed out, if an argument or even a fistfight breaks out and someone pulls out a weapon, especially one that represents a HUGE escalation in the threat to life, that's viewed from the outside as dishonorable because the one who escalated didn't meet the threat level with an appropriate threat level. And there are different levels of training and combat accepted at different levels. The bulk of people training in martial arts would still only be marginally more effective in a real street fight than someone with NO fight training because at the level of martial "art", they're training their body and conditioning sets of movements, which when implemented correctly and trained enough can for sure help against people of equal or lower experience level. But most of them aren't really training and regularly fighting other people. Whereas someone who trains to fight MMA and actually regularly competes would have a much higher advantage against most untrained challengers because they implement more advanced levels of training like footwork, dynamic movement, and timing. Things you regularly have to drill with a real opponent to build as a skillset. HOWEVER! That still constitutes martial "sport". A controlled fight that still has rules and is overseen by a referee. An example I heard once from a high level martial artist is how Muay Thai is regarded as a VERY effective martial art for stand up fighting. And he said: "yeah. In a ring where you're not allowed to target the groin." Because the squared up front facing stance leaves you open to being kicked in the balls relatively easy, but that's less of a concern in a controlled fight because the rules dis-allow that as a target and its generally accepted by honor. But there's no honor in street fights. Last example is military training. Marine Corps martial arts program doesn't give a fuck about their people kicking in the balls. Stomping someone's head in when they fall to the ground. Gouging eyes. The things that would generally end an MMA fighter's career or get a civilian on the street thrown in prison. Martial Combat is the art of fighting to LIVE. Which means when you train to fight to survive on a battlefield setting, you're fighting to incapacitate or kill as quickly and efficiently as possible. These are three different tiers of levels of combat readiness and three entirely different levels of use of violence with their own honor structures built in. But they generally meet the level of threat with a similar level of threat, or less when possible. But rarely is it acceptable to escalate to MORE. And especially when you are the aggressor in a conflict.

This was fascinating. Great discussion. 👌

Really interesting discussion & guest. So helpful understanding how & why men & women perceive things differently.

“Why fight when you can negotiate.”-Jack Sparrow

Is it now Dr. Henderson?? He is very calm and brilliant 👏. I was quite attractive to men and women but never competitive.

Full points to Rob for absorbing Chris's excitement about his 'arbitrary contest' experiment and politely explaining why that would not at all work 😂

We took all the most harsh components out of darwinism and put them on a pedestal, and completely forgot that cooperation, love, intelligence and innovation has pushed us further than competitiveness and single-male dominance mindsets EVER did.

Dr Paul Dobransky mentioned Rob Henderson in a podcast which brought me to your channel. Excellent interview!

Another excellent discussion

what a great guest ! super smart and articulated

Women don’t really like Dad bods. I think women only say they like dad bods for 1 of 3 reasons: 1. They are trying to be nice and supportive 2. They are looking for a weak man that they can manipulate 3. They are insecure and don’t want to have to maintain that level of attractiveness for themself.

I think people have incorrect metrics on the rapidity of fat loss in a Native Human environment. An adult male can lose 15lbs in a week easily tracking/ hunting on foot. Can go from “dad bod” to cut fast exercising in starvation mode like fighters.

Roundhouse punch 😂

Anyone can get a dad bod (dudes) or a tummy (ladies), but not everyone has the discipline to show self control with their eating habits. A well-maintained, trim dude's body is a sign of discipline. He might be a player (not great for a committed, monogamous relationship), but at least he has discipline in AN area of his life, and there is immense intrinsic value in the virtue of discipline.

Speaking personally at age 36 now. When I was younger fighting was fun. Also the reputation that came with it was a net positive especially because it was less as an extreme aggressor or antagonist but a "cross a certain line" fighter which was most of my late teens and 20s. Also, politically, something I'd call more anarchist. With age I drifted more conversative because the assumptions I'd had that formed my opinions now had solid lived experience to verify or dismantle my assumptions. With that, for each day I could predictably and somewhat accurately forecast the future the more conservative I drifted. It combines both the ideal scenario with the likely scenario with worst case scenario and the least likely scenario. Conservatism comes with also with evidence that there are things that need to be conserved along with a verified reason why that is not simply ideological. So today I would certainly get into a brawl if need be, but the line that sparks combat has been moved further and further back, and, as the line moved back I've developed a massive range of verbal and conceptual ways to bring situations to a desirable end without the need to fight. The dad bod thing and the question "Does this mean women don't know what they're attracted to" viewing it within the context of today in our exact society with the massive influence we're able to spread via the internet and the exact general dynamics between men and women it makes sense that physical traits that signal safety and stability may look more attractive. I've come to know with women it's more about what things imply that stands out. That circumstance you laid out.. "If he was guaranteed to stick around and be a great father she'd probably choose the physically built guy" is probably right. Also the dad bod thing may be part of the "body positivity" movement as they came up around the same time. Solid vid, cheers.

Thanks for a very interesting video!

Great stuff.

When men say "thicc" or "curvy" they mean something very different than women hear. Women think curvy means obese. Likewise men think "dadbod" means beer belly. It doesn't. To women "dadbod" means a strong, kickass, muscular man with a little extra padding.

The best guest.

The first 6 minutes are just mindblowing!

I think the question is do dad bods have more or less divorces and do they have more or less relationship satisfaction and why for each?

The "dad-bod" pontifications are right on track from what I can tell. I am friends with a couple of hot strippers who openly admit they prefer to date weak, flabby men--when it's obvious they could attract very handsome, physical men if they wanted. Knowing them, I'm pretty sure it's because they don't want competition with other women.

So love to see you interview Rollo Tomassi and his literal volumes of research.

It makes sense why a woman would want a man with a dad bod. She doesn’t want to compete with other women for him because deep down she knows he will be found less sexually attractive to other women with that body type.

There is another thing about attractiveness that is not mentioned here, and it is that in any competition, the winner often releases higher levels of testosterone and can appear more "attractive" in a certain way. On a higher level, higher status means by essence more power, and that in our society translates in different ways : celebrity, money, social and professional hierarchy, etc. The competition may be far more asymetric than it was before because exposure (social media, mass media) plays a key role in the status equation. In fact I don't agree on the conclusion that a video game streamer gets more attention from woman only because he gets attention from other gamers. It is just that his status has increased by exposing himself live streaming and gaining followers by showing some skills, but not necesseraly because he is better in video games. Status may have a more indirect effect on woman, so that's why they don't need to understand the game to be attracted by the winner. In the end, the winner takes it all.

Regarding dad bod and female attraction: - healthy, traditionally masculine males are disgusted and bothered by it because it represents the embracing and ENCOURAGEMENT of a behavior and lifestyle that weakens society. How is a MAN going to protect his family or his tribe when he can't even defend himself from a flight of stairs? Women who CLAIM that they like that only think so because they're at a point where they trapped a decent enough guy and don't want other women trying to steal him. He's no longer physically attractive to her in the way she would be attracted to men during her "party years", but now he's "safe" and comfortable. So a dad bod is the sweatpants to a woman who is now ready to settle down and probably also stop trying as hard to remain attractive. It lowers the bar so they also have an excuse to try less... I would argue that nobody is TRULY attracted to dad bod, they just got to a place in their life when they no longer have a better option... Which means you don't "prefer" dad bod, you tolerate it because it's what you have. A life without options minimizes you ability to be selective. And a life without VALUE minimizes your ability to have options. Always build value in yourself.

Lol "monkey dance" I am in love with this conversation. XD

18:10 Regarding that, if women band together to fight against invaders they can all lose, but if a woman recognises early on that her tribe is losing and surrenders she survives and can reproduce.

1:11:42 In Kudo, there's a rule I think that says that if you're under 10kg of your opponent, you are indeed allowed to kick your opponent in the balls.

This universe was not built on morale. Such an interesting topic!

Sounds like his thesis was that people tend to get more self-righteous when their selfish needs are challenged. Gosh... how groundbreaking! Ever met a parent? I love how psychology presents things we've all known for centuries as new, incredible discoveries.

Another interesting video. One thing I noted is that it is often difficult to measure the exactly the variable being investigated so instead a proxy is used but I wonder whether the proxy is always a good indicator. It was the measure of "sexual success" that particularly intrigued me in this case, since it seems that the studies counted the number of sexual partners a person had had as a measure of their sexual success but I would have thought that this might be considered to be quite unsuccessful, given that the higher the number of relationships someone has had, the higher the number of failed relationships they must have had. I would have thought that someone who gets married and stays married (and faithful) might be considered more sexually successful than someone who has had a string of sexual partners? On the subject of marriage (clunky segue), a point not made in the video but included in today's (23rd Jan 2023) 3MM is that there is a "formula not to be poor". Whilst the components outlined (finish high school, get a full-time job once you finish school and get married before you have children) are clearly good things to do, I wonder if it is really possible to demonstrate causation or whether this is really just correlation. I would have thought that the sort of people who will thrive financially will be able to apply themselves with some degree of discipline. These are likely to be the same sort of people who will finish high school, work at full time jobs and get married before having children.

Auckland University is in New Zealand. In Auckland...

Not sure how this fits into the "dad bods are more attractive" thing, but I'm 39 and in reasonably good shape; my waist size is smaller and my shoulders are broader than when I was 19, for example. But before I got into shape in my mid 20's women would approach me and show interest. After I got in shape that almost completely stopped happening. I've never really understood why that might be; about the best explanation I've come up with is that I might look too intimidating now that I'm in shape? That doesn't seem like an adequate explanation though.

It's pretty funny about the protagonist and perception thing. It's become kind of a meme of the fans of the Uncharted series of games that the 'hero' and protagonist has way more blood in his hands than the 'evil' antagonists

48:55 I think that it's also important to see WHAT women these men sleep with, ¿Do they sleep with all women or with certain types of women?

A guy who focuses on work and spend time with his family during his spare time and never gets time to focus on keeping himself in shape. Thats how most dads are. So the moment a woman see's a guy with a body which resembles most probably of her dads or that of a typical family man they relate that this man can be kind and caring, they tend to have a long term relationship with this type of guy.

00:04 Perceived intimidation or formidability is a stronger predictor of a man's sexual success than attractiveness. 01:59 Thesis: Physical and social threats fortify moral judgments 05:51 The world looks less dangerous to strong and healthy individuals. 07:57 Men and women have evolved different mechanisms to compete for status in relationships. 12:08 Male athletes show more overt aggression towards their own teammates but less hostility when competing against another team. 13:59 Indirect aggression is prevalent in intergroup conflicts among tribes. 17:40 Women do not band together against an out-group foe in the same way men do. 19:39 Men compete for status through violence and conflict. 23:29 Bonobos and chimps are more violent than humans, with chimps being 150 to 500 times more violent than human hunter-gatherer coalitions. 25:20 Humans have a built-in social anxiety that makes them care about how others perceive them. 28:44 Men's aversion to women praising and media upholding dad bods. 30:27 Men value their physique and train hard to be attractive to women. 33:46 The attractiveness of a man's physique affects women's perception of his potential as a father. 35:40 Physical attractiveness plays a significant role in women's perception of men. 38:55 Men value admiration and prestige from other men as much as they value being found attractive by women. 40:33 A man's perceived intimidation or formidability by other men is a stronger predictor of his sexual success than his attractiveness to women. 43:53 Secondary sex characteristics in men evolved to compete with other males, not to impress women. 45:38 Male puberty leads to delayed development of sex characteristics and changes in body. 49:20 Throughout history, men have conferred status on other men more than women. 51:08 Respecting the winner is a key component in competition. 54:36 Men's status among other men is a strong predictor of their attractiveness to women. 56:18 Men prioritize friends who are creative, intelligent, ambitious, and socially connected as these qualities are proxies for status. 59:59 Perceptions of men with lots of women in dating profiles may be seen as less serious or desirable. 1:01:41 The male monkey dance is a ritualistic conflict between two males that gradually escalates. 1:05:10 Men compete for status through monkey dances 1:06:46 Fair fights are valued across different cultures because people want to estimate fighting ability and signal their capacity. 1:10:18 Optimizing for survival in a fight often means breaking the rules. 1:12:05 In certain contexts, people are willing to confer prestige even if someone smaller or outnumbered prevails with rule bending. 1:15:26 In the James Bond movie, the protagonist's blows have no effect on a much larger opponent. 1:17:02 Game of Thrones challenges traditional notions of good and bad characters 1:20:22 Rob Henderson discusses the underlying motives and payoffs in common social interactions. Crafted by Merlin AI.

Lol 10/10 comment about age, when looking at behavioural psychology the key determining factor is survival i think and this does not only apply to age. As a result things like morality can sometimes purely be a facade for something that will help me to survive as I know my safety/survival and ability to thrive is at a much greater risk in a society without things like social morality holding things together, therefore becoming a moral upkeeper is necessary for my survival - even if the particular "moral" thing does not make much progressive rational sense in certain scenarios. I think it is why people become so adamant to upkeep the ideology of morality sometimes or also become so reliant on governments or some other form of power to govern them and their decisions - this power is necessary for their survival. Also led me to some interesting thoughts regarding the concept of ego/being egotistical with regards to social constructs as I think this can be somewhat related to this. But on the flipside moving back to the philosophical, being virtuous should be a virtue within itself, and not related to personal gain. This is the true form of morality a lot of more ancient philosophy speaks of, and yes it was beneficial for the society as a whole, however it was more about self growth and rational thinking to discern right and wrong and being a respectable person. Also if you look at this from a golden rule perspective, you could be the strongest person in the world - but you could simply think someone chopped off my arm, I would not like it, therefore I would not do it to others. This would then be a question/action of moral virtue based on rational thought and empathy, as opposed to the fact I cannot dominate someone/survive so I wish to be a person of moral virtue. And this can demonstrated by many historical rulers, they had the capacity to be tyrants but chose not to be. Or shaolin monks who could easily kill a man with their bare hands, but choose a path of peace. Unless as you say they are comfortable with their prospect of survival so have no need to try and dominate others - but I do not think it is a one size fits all brush these particulars would depend on a person to person basis as rational thought and free will to make decisions is a thing, I think it would be counterintuitive to suggest literally everything is based on some form of competitive survival even if many things are, hence why you have things like political Buddhist martyrs or whatever else.

In response to 51:00 - arbitrary outcome sports, where the winner is respected to view the effect on perceived mateability in women .. we already have that. It's called esports. I do think that there is a strong argument to show that women are attracted to some of the best esports players based on their respect from other men

40:15 Very interesting study Likelihood of having more sexual partners increased by being physically intimidating

Chris gonna break that 600k mark b4 year is over. Praise God

Part of the "dad bod" issue is that it's not clear what a "dad bod" is. Does it refer to a 5'4" balding guy with a 44 inch waist and 14 inch arms? Or is it a 6'5" defensive end with 12% body fat during the off-season? I get the impression women have very different opinions on the two.

The trick is not to compete.

would love to know the study mentioned at 41:00.

47:37 it isn't that women don't know what they want, it's that confident men make more attempts. The "softer" male that women in a study prefer probably take fewer risks, aren't prowling and aren't looking for the most partners. The more 2ndarily testosterone affected males are probably also more assertive, more confident, and are playing their cards more often.

The only thing rob got dead wrong is the correlation between muscularity and sexual success, i can beat almost every strength record in 2 separate weight classes at my school and i'm commonly reffered to as "the guy who looks like he's flexing all the time" but i still get no bitches

35:10 Isn't that true for men as well?

Hahahaha!!! I can vouch for the first bit 😂

Chris, your arbitrary game experiment is done all the time. It's called a craps table and can be found at every casino.

Women don't band against outer groups. They go to them with a diplomatic proposal. "Hey, you can be useful to us in this way, we can be useful to you in this way. lets be friends." And it works, because of their empathy they can correctly asses what is valuable to the other group. and yay, no fighting and no banding needed. Men are wired to seek power and destroy/dominate others. Women are wired for connection. Work together, you will have more.

The only thing I woul add is that quality of sexual partners is way more important than quantity, although there is most likely a correlation between the two.

threat and disgust perception being linked to contemporary moral western attitudes is empirical evidence of why Nietzsche said that contemporary morality is weak, effeminate, and slavish as it's a response to harm and threat not exemplification of how to live strongly, heroically, daringly, and powerfully which is a response to opportunity and conquest. Hence as Nietzsche proclaimed at least a two centuries ago, a person's moral attitude is due to their physiologic and temperamental realities not some objective universal truth or how things actually are or should work. Master versus slave morality isn't just a philosophical idea but Nietzsche's observations of human moral proclivities from a psychoanalytic standpoint.

41:38 This basically debunks everything the KZfaqr "Tails" claims.

Great stuff, but I was just talking about dad bods yesterday with a female friend. I've asked at least 40 or 50 women about this over the last 2 decades. Not a single one has liked 6-packs. They may on social media, where there is nothing of real substance, but not out there in the real world. That said, yeah, I still value my muscularity as do all the men I know. It's definitely a guy thing.

The aversion to Dad bods male's have is simple, and not related to homophobia or shit like that. I want the men around me to outwardly look able to fight along side me if needed. I want to be able to respect them outwardly and inwardly. A fat man is a product of luxury and civilization. Civilization can be lost at any time. A fat man will be a liability in almost any crisis. Further, if he's fat, his wife is probably going to be fat too. I don't want a SO of mine taking them being fat as a signal she can let herself go too.

I'm over here making moral judgments about lip smacking

Dad bod attractiveness is inversely proportional to a coefficient of Sexual Marketplace Value and proximity to "the wall". The wall is undefeated again. RIP, Godfather.

I just had this thought but if women in straight relationships are so attracted to status would the same thing carry over to female-female attraction? And if so what kind of effects would take place? I’m curious to see if lesbians are more likely to rate females as the better sex versus them being equal? Also would we see an increase in lesbian couples as woman rise higher in the workforce and society?

It beats listening to people's problems all day...

What he points out is, is why I went into Neuroscience. All the stuff "Philosophy" tried to answer, we can now actually find falsifiable answers to. Interesting work. Would have been cooler to get some brain imaging on the subjects though.

In the male warrior hypothesis, my perspective as a woman is that women prioritize the relationships within the group (unless the game has high stakes) and men prioritize the competition and winning, even when it’s a unimportant, they have a need to prove themselves competent at all times

Irish elk died because their habitat changed and there was less food, which weakened the bulls especially severely because of their big, expensive racks

Why don't women band together? To qoute Al Bundy "Don't try and understand women, women understand women and they hate each other".

I think people should ask what a dad bod is. A dad bod now in the 90s and 2000s would be in shape. IG fitness influencers and Marvel superheroes have really changed our perception.

Most pack animals choose their pack leaders, makes sense that dogs are so close to humans because before they were bred probably chose who their human was as well.

Love psychology and enjoy the hypotheses and thought experiments: just want to undergird the relevancy of the extant civilized system these (or any ) social relations are made within. Competition is important to capitalism; ergo, competition is important to attraction. I understand the ways in which this presents in the animal kingdom, but as sentient beings we have the ability to transcend any animalistic behavior with awareness (in certain directions). I always just find myself comparing that these researches and findings to a highly evolved social/‘civilized’ system….and what it could look like..💭✨

Alpha Bad Boy Rule #1: Do not climb trees without your weapon

Why do so many intelligent people seem to struggle undsrstanding that prescriptive/philosophical questions about ethics and morality are different questions from descriptive/scientific ones? I've never understood how people manage to get them confused

I wonder if this could be replicated on dating apps... but I doubt it.

I'd be interested to hear how this relates to Japanese culture.

I'm a simple man. I see "Rob Henderson" in the title and I click

I would love to hear what these single childless women have to say about this. Based on my single friends’ experiences, although they always wanted mariage and children, the men just wanted to have fun.

What does it mean when a society puts their trust in stats and not into lived experience.

The best thing for men to Aim at is 1) MAKE BABIES and 2) Think A LOT about what your KIDS will think of you (NOT now!) but in 30 years from now! Play for THAT! THAT IS WINNING! --> because those kids will pick good partners! ---> Life advice from this happy old dad. ……with a small paunch, aka “my built-in auxiliary high-altitude high-oxygen concentrator.”

Hey guys, the sky is blue. Grass is green

I like dad bods, because they are less intimidating. If a man is super fit, I feel that I also have to be super fit and skinny.

Maybe women think dad bods are Jason Momoa at 18% bf

I bet Joey Chestnut got hella groupies! 🤣🤣🤣

The male gamer getting groupies reminds me of the peacock's tail signalling health. A guy that can afford to play video games all day probably has a certain amount of economic and physical security, similar to a male peacock affording to have a long tail.

Just read Aristotle lmao