"The problem with the Starks is not that they are honourable and just, but that they expect others to be honourable and just like them "

Biggest problem of the Stark men: predictability. Their honor and loyalty is admirable, but it also makes them predictable because they will always try to do exactly what they say they'll do.

“My fathers dead...” “What killed him?” “Loyalty “

"Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. "

The reason the Starks held the North for hundreds of years is because they took care and support their bannermen, so in return they had their ultimate loyalty. Yes you may call them fools, but that is just because they were dealing with totally different people with little to no *honor* than to which they knew.

It's not that Ned Stark is stupid. It's because he is from the North. They operate under a different set of ethics, honour and code. It's a different culture up there. Also, House Stark is honour bound because that is how they uphold respect. They play by the rules whereas people in the South don't have to.

Another reason I appreciate Sansa's story is that she learns quickly that everyone is not her friend. She sees firsthand how people who were supposed to be on her side work for their self-interest instead; her own aunt turning on her made that clear. She keeps that in mind moving forward.

Jesus how perfect was the casting for this show? Not only do the actors for Jon and Robb play their roles gloriously but they also look like f'ing brothers

The moment I saw Ned was Sean Bean, I knew he was fucked. But the curse also extended to his family, servants, and even pets.

The Starks. Good people, but not the brightest.

I will point out, Sansa is learning to get around these problems!

Littlefinger : “ Oh, Starks.....quick tempered, slow mind”.

If I were Ned I would have gone to straight to Robert rather than Cersei.

The problem with the the Starks is they are too honorable. They are so honorable that they think others are honorable as well. They think that everyone around them is telling the truth when they really aren't making them easy ro deceive

"Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking" - Vito Corleone (The Godfather)

I mean, Ned died because he was too honorable and thought the best in everyone. Robb and Jon weren't even 20 when they were betrayed and killed, I'm 19 myself and I think I would make the exact same mistakes

Roose Bolton did everything he said. He ended up poisoned by his enemies.

"Starks will always get betrayed". Well, they ruled uncontested in the north for thousands of years.

But the thing you're forgetting is that Ned's honor was what made him so beloved in the North. That honor was what created so much loyalty to his name. Tywin is a great contrast to this. He was certainly very smart. But after he died, his whole family collapsed. Because nobody cares about the Lannister name when Tywin isn't there.

The Starks were betrayed not because they want to do the right thing, but because they trust the wrong ppl.

I think that the reason why Ned put his trust in Littlefinger is EXACTLY because he was in love with Catelyn. Catelyn once told Ned that Littlefinger is like a little brother to him and would never betray her. I think Ned knew that he couldnt trust Littlefinger, but he thought that he could trust that Littlefinger would do whats right for Catelyn, as he was in love with her. I agree that the Starks greatest weakeness is their honor though. Ned acknowledged that King's Landing is a dangerous place, as he mentioned a few times, he was just too innocent to survive all the power hungry snakes. "Ahh.. the Starks, quick tempers, slow minds" - Littlefinger.

How dare you call my honorable lord ned a moron? The north will never forget this.

I would say of all the Starks, Jon is the biggest moron. The only reason he's still alive is because of the story.

"Ah the Starks quick tempers slow minds" -Littlefinger.

In all fairness, Tyrion gets betrayed all the time as well.

I think Rob the worst Stark when it came to making decisions. He should have kept Richard Karstark alive since he controls a massive portion of Robbs army; keeping them loyal was essential. The most laughable thing Robb did was marrying Talisa(betraying the Frey's) and then expecting the Frey's help. I think even Ned and Jon would be like brruuhh! 😑😤

This is also a flaw of all of the noble families in GoT - they all underestimate Little Finger because of their culture. Little Finger is from a lowly, recently landed noble family. He’s like a servant to them.

Nope not with Sansa around. She’s learned the most

The problem with Jon and robb is that they are based off 14-16 year olds. In the books their actions make sense coming from immature teenagers. But in the show they are grown men with the actors almost 10 years older. It makes them seem like morons. So instead of seeming like intelligent for their age they seem stupid and short sited

Robb is the one that infuriated me. I just rewatched a few episodes from Season 3 and well, the Red Wedding was so obvious. He resfused to marry a girl, which was quite an offense to that old frye(fray? idr). And Robb still expect this guy to side with him. that was a VERY stupid move.

Soldiers know honor and duty, Varys told Tyrion " Jon Arrin and Ned Stark were good honorable men, but they dispised the game and those who play it".

So the Starks get killed for being honorable, merciful and caring, while the rest die for being greedy, untrustworthy and deceitful. Guess in GoT you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

1) Ned didn't initially trust or like Littlefinger, he only worked with him because Catelyn vouched for Baelish. I'd also point out that Baelish was the one manipulating Starks and Lannisters to fight each other from the moment he poisoned Jon Arryn and told Lysa to blame the Lannisters for it. 2) Ned wasn't underestimating Cersei, he rightly deduced that she had no true power on her own. With the information that he had, there was no way of predicting that Robert would get killed by a boar. The fact that Cersei's plan worked is sheer luck as boars aren't naturally aggressive creatures and would've been more likely to flee Robert than attack him unless provoked or cornered. That said, it honestly only worked because the plot needed Robert to die. 3) Ned has empathy (see his treatment of his servants, wife, children and most people in general), the problem is that it's near-impossible to step into the shoes of a selfish and sociopath. Especially if said sociopath is a master at hiding their intentions and true nature. 4) Martin's confirmed that even if Robb hadn't broken his word, the Freys would've betrayed him anyway. 5) Becoming King in the North was the will of Robb's people, how is that not aligning himself with his people's wants? 6) Karstark never would've settled for waiting till after the war. Also, giving someone what they want should never come at losing what you want as well. The Kingslayer was a vital hostage and letting Karstark kill him would do more harm than good. What Cat did was stupid, but Karstark crossed the line when he killed Stark/Tully guards and murdered the Lannister boys. If Robb hadn't executed Karstark, he would've lost more than just the Karstarks and would've lost a lot of respect from his men. 7) No, Edmure's fault is his own. He was given a direct order and he disobeyed it, that's Edmure's responsibility. Edmure's lucky that he wasn't punished more severely for insubordination. In the books, it's made clear that Edmure's actions are based on rashness and a desire to uphold his pride after his losses earlier in the war. But Edmure fails to understand that attacking Tywin keeps Tywin's armies in the Riverlands where they'll continue to harm and terrorize Edmure's people. Even without knowing the whole plan, Edmure should've been willing to let Tywin go west and only fight if attacked as Riverrun would be able to withstand a siege. Robb delegated Edmure the task of protecting the Riverlands and Edmure failed by stopping Tywin from leaving the Riverlands. 8) Bullshit. Jon and others have known about the Walkers since Season 1 when a wight tried to murder Lord-Commander Mormont. Some of the Night's Watch know that Craster is sacrificing his baby boys to the Walkers; Many were slaughtered at the Fist of the First Men; and after capturing several wildlings and interrogating them, the Watch should know exactly why Mance was trying to get past the Wall. Which is confirmed by the Hardhome massacre. If the traitors in the Watch didn't understand the threat, then that's their fault. A Watchman is only at fault when he fails to warn the people of the coming danger. But if the Watchman has given multiple warnings and pointed to many signs of the danger and the people still ignore him, the destruction of that town is their fault. They've seen some of the signs themselves and Jon has reminded them of the truth, but they're too caught in their own stubborn hatred to fully realize what all of this means. There's only so much that Jon could've done with such stiff-necked idiots. Vague threat? Jon was short and to the point with Olly. Jon fought against wildlings too and lost several best friends during the Battle for Castle Black. Jon's honor and life was put on the line because of the wildlings. Jon understands his brother's hatred of the Wildlings, but he's wise enough to think beyond himself and to know that the Night's Watch is meant to protect the realms of men against Winter. That includes the wildlings whether you like them or not. He also knows that the Watch will need allies against the Walkers or they will all die, just like the brothers who died at the Fist of the First Men. Also, it's nice how you omit the fact that Jon did get through to the Wildlings with the techniques you describe and persuaded them to start leaving Hardhome. Most of them did die anyway, but the fact that Jon persuaded the usually stubborn and free-spirited free folk to leave and managed to save some of them should not be overlooked. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Also, being a leader means doing things that people won't like or want. But those things are necessary for the cause and people will recognize that in the future. If you give everyone what they want all of the time, they never grow and sometimes, it causes long-term harm. This is a method of leadership that historically holds up and that's why the show's dumbing down of the Starks is so annoying. The books give a more balanced and fair perspective on the leadership capabilities of the Stark Men. Their only flaw is that they're not backstabbing schemers which puts them at a disadvantage against backstabbing schemers. But if the Starks were just as bad as their enemies then they would lose the admirable qualities that we love about them. (looking at you Sansa)

Can you do a video on Tywin? He was the most authoritative character in the show.

Ygritte: "You say nothing, Jon Snow."

Plenty of wisdom in here. I would say Sansa may prove to be the exception here; one of the only Starks who not only has survived from their mistakes to learn from them, but also has discerned the valuable skills of some of the best (and worst) people around her. Really valuable video here, as always. Thanks

Why the starks will always get betrayed? George R. R. Martin.

Jons problem is that HE KNOWS NOTHING!!! lol

I'm going to respectfully disagree regarding Rickard Karstark. It would have been irresponsible for Robb to promise that Jaime would be tried or executed at the war's end, because he might need Jaime as part of a deal to end that war. Karstark lost two sons to the Kingslayer, but lots of men lost sons, and brothers, and friends, and more. Do they get to place demands on the King in the North? No, a grieving father's thirst for revenge does not trump all other considerations, and Robb was wise enough to know this. Robb made many mistakes--accepting the kingship foremost among them--but denying Lord Rickard was not one of them.

And now thanks to Season 8 we can now see Starks betraying Starks. How meta!

If I were Robb I would let the Karstarks cut Jaime's hand and send it to Cersei : "A hand from your lover for my father death, the hand of the King. If you lay a finger on my sisters, you will get more boxes with more of ser Jaime. " That would have solved the problem with the Karstarks who would have the satisfaction of removing the only thing that Jaime is pround of : his great skill in sword fight. At least it would have made it way more difficult for the Boltons to rebel.

Do you think Sansa has learned this lesson? I think her time spent with greedy, self-absorbed people like Cersei, Littlefinger (especially him) and Ramsay has taught her to play whatever role is necessary -- a psychological version of Arya. Thoughts?

Yeah Robb was so predictable that he fooled Tywin Lannister.

I bet Sansa will be the one who get the throne at the end. She's become one of the smartest (meaning most experienced) character of the show. After everything she's been through she knows how vile her ennemies can be. And she totally deserve it. Although she's not my fav character, it's just observation.

It goes even father than this. Ned's father was called to Kings landing and betrayed. His son Brandon was called for trial by combat and betrayed. Being forced to fight "Fire".

The Starks are men of honor. They speak truthfully and act morally. They play a different game, a game where the only way to lose is by forsaking what one knows is right; and the only way to win is by dying without doing so.

"Let me put it this way, have you ever heard of Ned Stark? Robb? Jon Snow?" "Yes." "Morons..."

For Rob’s part did you seriously neglect to mention that he was overruled by his passionate love affair with Telisa, losing the confidence and respect of his allies when he needed it? That was probably the biggest mistake he made. That’s why John prevailed where Rob failed - in sacrificing love for duty - John was a truly selfless leader.

The whole thing with Rob and the "problems" of honour becomes even more apparent in the books: In the books, Rob takes a castle of a lesser house allied to the Lannisters. When he receives the message of his brothers being killed, the young Lady comforts him and they sleep together despite Rob's commitment to the Freys. He marries that woman because of his sense primarily because of his sense of honour, those triggering the Red Wedding. In the show they changed it somewhat for some reason.

Jon failed to communicate not because of any fault, but because the showrunners needed to move the plot in a particular direction. Besides, soldiers talk. Everyone at Castle Black would've known what the hell happened. It was just bad scriptwriting.

"To defeat an enemy you must know them, not simply their battle tactics but their history their culture their art." Grand admiral thrawn

1:39 He "used" to be in love with Catelynn? Id say that ship was still sailing strong

With Ned's trust of Baelish you're missing an important part. Ned put his faith in Cat's trust for Baelish, not Baelish himself. It's their combined naivety that get Ned killed, not his honor alone.

you should do a video about margaery tyrell and her manipulation skills

''I am not a Stark'' - Jon Snow

Honour. That's what makes me respect Ned. And also why our current society is in the gutters. People don't have honour

"Your a good man, with a good heart....and its hard for a good man to be a king.."

This is exactly why Edward stark and Jon Snow do not want to be leaders. They don't want that power but it is thrust upon them with not much choice.

Jon is able to convince his enemies to be on his side. He's done it with the wildlings, more specifically Tormund, a man he betrayed. Alliser, is just one of those enemies who would never listen to any reason. Even Stannis, a man so rigid with duty and honour, knew it was useful to have the wildling's get past the wall. He even gave Jon his ships to make this process possible.

In short, if it is in HP, it is why in every Hufflepuffs there should really be a slytherin ally, you give us your loyalty, and we'll make sure no one will touch a smidgen of your hair.

I think your appraisal of the Starks is a bit too negative, and that you're missing the Northern Experience (TM). People in the North have to trust each other. The region is really desolately populated, and it is the only part of Westeros that has to deal with direct outside threats (Wildlings). As such, it seems reasonable to assume that the northerns just can't scheme as much - in that environment everybody *needs* to trust each other. This isn't fancypancy Highgarden or Sunspear. Just look at the way the Robb became king. He was loved. Look at his meetings with hos Lords - don't they strike you as a lot more informal than Tywins? Where would you find it easier to ask a question, or voice a dissenting opinion? There seems to be a less formality between the lords of the North, and more internal solidarity. If you're a schemer in such an environment, you'll get fucked over quickly. What such an environment does incentivice is instead adherence to common rules, justice, mutual respect (hence the Karstark dilemma) and fairness. Coming from a sparsely populated and very "naive" Scandinavian country I know what I'm talking about. ;) P.S. (The Boltons are fucked up, and really don't seem to conform to what I wrote above. The Northerners themselves have historically seen this). P.P.S. Which kind of leadership do you think is most likely to survive Winter? Littlefinger (with absolutely no proper powerbase of his own) or the Starks?

It's not that the Starks are stupid. Look at Arya and Sansa. They are both Starks and they are smart as hell has of season 6. But they live in the North. They have different codes, honors, and a way of life far different from the south and it's politics. Being honorable was their mistake. But that's it's. Ned telling Cersie wasn't a good idea. But, Ned would not have anymore children's blood on his hands like he felt he had During the sack of Kings Landing. Also, Ned did not want to trust littlefinger. It was Cat whom talked him into it. Just like she told Robb Walder Fray would never harm her. No one was dumber then Cat and she wasn't a born Stark. At the end of the day, being Smart won't always keep you from getting killed in Game of Thrones. Tywin was smart, yet he was murdered on his toilet. In a Song of Ice and Fire you will die either being a villain or a hero. But what matters is the legacy you leave behind. Ned, will always be remembered as honorable. While characters like Cersie will be remembered as evil monsters who people will be glad they are dead.

Great video! The book "How to Win Friends and Influence People," helped me in this area a ton. Basically, never assume altruism is the motive behind anyone's actions, and always ask, "What does this person stand to gain by the actions he/she/they are taking?"

Ned died because of the difference between the north and the south the nothern men are men of honor unlike the southern men who are.... Bloody back stabbing bastards and that's why the starks die when they march south (not including John)

You should do a video about Olenna Tyrell. A perfect example of reactive leadership.

You're right. Especially about Jon. Episode 7 of Season 6 is a perfect example. When he's trying to build his army, what does he say? "Stark... Duty... Winterfell...Honour..." That's all what he wants and nobody cares, but he has the biggest trump card in the game and he's not using it. All Jon needs here are a few words: "Winter is here. The dead walk again. You can join us, or you will join them." And Jon is also clearly a moron. Davos mentions the dead and - BAM! - instant ally, but Jon apparently didn't notice that, because he never tried that approach himself. Jon Snow really does know nothing.

You forgot Sansa, betrayed by Littlefinger.

I think it would be really great if you did a video on the positives of how Starks lead. How they inspire loyalty and respect, and not through fear and manipulation like most characters in the show.

In the case of John Snow's lack of communication on the return from Hardhomme, that's just a case of bad screenwriting, wherein a character inexplicably fails to say the the most obvious thing so that the plot can be served by miscommunication.

Partially in old Ned's defense, I think he's been duped just like us viewers/readers from the start. First: the setting of the Small Council meeting, when the players were introduced - Ned immediately took dislike to Varys because he was eunuch, hated the way he smelled, how he "prayed for the Prince's swift recovery". Second: Littlefinger, while already having an established antipathy with the Stark men, seemed to contribute quite a lot to Ned's investigation of Jon Arryn's death and search for King _Bob's_ bastards. Third: Ned assumed that Littlefinger would honor his end of the bargain because of the "mutual trust" between them and Catelyn. I admit: when I first watched the show, all wide-eyed, I even urged Ned to go along with Littlefinger's plan. However, none can argue that Ned confronting Cersei and giving her time to react was the absolute stupidest thing he could've done, just as much as Rob trusting Walder Frey. Jon, on the other hand, has made effort to convince his Night's Watch brothers to accommodate the wildlings, and for many times he has proven himself to the Watch. He did not expect for all the things he's done, they would have trusted him more, but alas. Naive, yes - stupid, no.

6:30, I actually support was Rob did. His commanders are supposed to do exactly as he says without question. The Art of War states that a commander shouldn't tell his generals everything about the war plan just incase...

Ned Stark was raised by Jon Arryn. His whole honor thing was learned from him.

The thing is most of the men who stabbed Jon wouldn't have listened to logic

Bro, a great breakdown on charisma would be Harvey Spector from Suits.

Seen this comment a bunch, but I agree, it enjoyed how you chose a singular theme to use as a visual aid to help others understand your behavioral analysis. I found it very entertaining and watched it through. Choosing the visual aid you did in this video really helped build a visual example of what you're trying to convey to the viewers. Brilliant, watched the whole way through, and stayed entertained and interested.

Never in my life have I need something so much, and never known until I had watched it.

You can say all you want about Ned, but he is a man of honor. That's all that matters to me.

Can you do a littlefinger video? He is an extremely clever and tactical character

Jon... Too much like his daddy. An excellent warrior, but no ability to read people. Sees the world as it should be, rather than how it really is.

Step 1 to winning the Game of Thrones: Don't lose your head.

This was super creative and expository! Outstanding job. Subscribed!

You should do a littlefinger analisis!

I’ve done Ned Stark mistake I told the enemy my plan they took it played me and now I’m drowning in resentment 🤦‍♂️

What many people fail to understand is that Ned's honor is not The North's honor. It was his surrogate father's - jon arryn. He spent most of his youth as his ward, there he learned and accepted his ways of doing things. If you go back in time you'll realize that The North is not that honroable at all, they can be pretty ruthless and cunning themselves.

I think Jon not telling the Nights Watch about the White Walkers is just poor writing on D&D's part rather than Jon's character flaw. Something very different happens in the book that causes Jon's death.

Justice and Integrity are nothing without the power to back them up.

That's what Sansa been trying to say! She's the clever one (or will be)

My dad taught me how to be honorable and I try to live by similar principles and I gotta be honest, I face similar problems in every day life. It's almost crippling tbh because I just can't think outside of it.

This is one of wisest videos on KZfaq. Amazing stuff here guys, this ought to be compulsory showing in primary schools and high schools all around the world.

I agree, the Starks exemplify honor and decency, and assume that others will be honorable and decent too. This assumption is their undoing many times. However, despite leaving themselves open to betrayal they also win fanatic loyalty by many others as well. While one or two Starks may die from betrayal, betraying them will earn you a blood feud from every clan and house in the North. There is a reason the Starks have endured this long after all.

Sansa learns from her mistakes and misfortunes as she grows and becomes an incredibly shrewd and effective leader. You should do a video about her.

Watching this after the Starks won the game of thrones.

Rickon was betrayed by the Umbers aswell lol

So the question is: why do we like and route for the starks so much?

Amazing video. Well done and great Explanations !

Your videos are amazing ! I love the concept ! Very interesting !

Robb was the biggest idiot in this show. First he cuts off Karstag's head being fully aware half of the army belongs to him which implicitly means they would leave. So who does he turn to for filling in those numbers? The one person he broke an important promise and sacred vow to without ever thinking he may be vengeful about it in the end.

Main issue is this idea of honor. Keeps getting Starks killed. Arya is pretty much only one who went "FUCK this" on it. Lannisters have known from the start that it is BS but have stopped displaying care for honor for appearances sake. Making them from the get go look Machiavellian which lets their opponents to get their guards up. Targaryen just relies on its vodoo magic.

man man such a masterpiece of a story. So much to learn from it. it is crazy

It's not survival that matters to the Starks,it’s survival with honour.They will always do what they think is right,no matter the price they have to pay. Sometimes it’s a Gift and sometimes It's a honour.