Not going to lie, I don't know how you held your tounge when Mr. Nockon said he didn't care about penetration and a full pass through. I lost some faith in him when he said that! That's like spending $100k on an engine, gears, transmission, turbo charges and then saying tire grip isn't that important. lol 😂

Can’t believe this still needs to be explained.

To get speed before and after impact, you can use a large backdrop with a known size of grid, or even just vertical lines, and a high-speed camera. You know your frame-rate and can calculate speed off how many frames it takes to cross your known distance. A large enough back-drop gives enough room to calculate pre-impact speed and the speed of the arrow after it has completely traversed the carcass.

Conservation of momentum, elastic vs inelastic collisions, derivatives of KE and Momentum. You can't beat the physics on this stuff. Good work Troy.

This is my go to channel for arrows and broadhead info. Very informative, I love it!

So when living out west my personal goal was to find an arrow more in the middle to top of the curve. I am blessed with a 31.5” draw length along with a love for math, physics, engineering and all of those wonderful things. There were hours spent doing this in a long hand way of shooting and observing the results with differing spines, wild FOC, crazy vanes and whatever else I could dream up.

I've been watching a lot of your content for about a week I guess. You're a nut. This one made me subscribe. Im 46, my son is 9. We both just got our 1st bows. Grateful to have found the Ranch. I don't know too much about hunting or archery, but at least now at the Ranch, we won't be wasting time learning misinformation. Thanks for taking the time to educate.

8 or 9 years ago, I tumbled onto Grizzlystik and Dr Ashby's work. I've been a believer ever since - All it took was watching how much more my EFOC's pushed through a black hole target than my more 'traditional' speedies. ... Almost like the ancients who used longbows to poke holes in steel sheets knew that a relatively heavy, slow arrow penetrated better than a light, fast one.

ignore the critics and keep up the truthful attitude and testing

shot a spike elk this year @ 45 yards w/ a 525gr arrow, VPA 3 blade hand sharpened. Arrow passed thru and look perfect aside from a little dirt. Ended up shooting THE SAME arrow at the same elk a few minutes later (long story), and it passed thru again (30ish yards the 2nd time)

Ever consider using a high speed camera to calculate arrow speed? Back in the day, the Mythbusters show always had a painted scale set up behind their experiments and a high speed camera with a known frames per second video. Simply count the frames the arrow takes to travel across the scale. You can calulate KE lost impact with this method by setting up a scale in the "Ranch Fairy test lab" and recording the shot with a high speed camera.

Also, air temperature affects drag. Colder temperature creates more drag. Great info. I always knew this but never thought to much about it. So now I go with 500+ gr for hunting.. Again great info.

"OMG" Ranch Fairy I pissed myself when i found you also love your childhood ruined book covers , Love your channel keep up the good work from Down under Australia.

I'm getting closer to adult arrows. Limited funds stopped me from upgrading. I did, however, add 68 grains to the front of my arrows and cut 3/4 of an inch off of them. Went from 413gr and 9.6% FOC to 469gr and 15.1% FOC. Added 25gr to the tip weight and 38gr to the insert. It's too late to switch for this season, so I'll have to wait until after the first of the year.

Here's a fun analysis from my data. Drag of a 500gr+ arrow, as long as it's a .203 or smaller ID, is almost entirely linear. Lighter arrows will need a much better form factor, because they'll start experiencing quadratic drag. Because arrows are so long the friction is pretty much the only factor in slowing down the arrow. Frontal area plays a minuscule role for 500gr+ arrows at 290fps or slower

Thank you so much for your content! I only wish I had found you a few months ago. I just started checking my arrow setup in the last few weeks, and I'm regretting taking the advice of my local archery shop on arrow setup. Granted it has been several years since getting new arrows but I let them recommend twizzler sticks because I didn't know any better. Now it's hunting season and I fully understand why my broadheads don't track nearly as well as my field points. Thank you for opening my eyes and giving me the knowledge I need! I can't wait to have a conversation with the bow tech at that shop......I hope their views have changed in the intervening years! If not, I'll have to become my own bow tech!!!

If you make a frame for the hat to lift it above your head and spread the wings out, I think that it would hide your heat signature from any IR detectors in unmanned drones or aircraft during the upcoming state of emergency

I love the Math, when the subject is the launching of Arrow, Bolts or Freedom Seeds

RF, all these FACTS... what next? the world isn't FLAT? LOVE your channel, all the MATH and the FACTS just make me smile

Ranch Conquistador! You can use frame rate to estimate the exit velocity. If one felt kinetic energy is what kills the target animal, they should just use field points or even bare shafts. Momentum is much easier to calculate and, although I have not studied arrow flight much, a stiffer, heavier arrow will overcome the drag of the air better than a flimsy light one. When the arrow encounters exponentially more resistance (upon striking a flesh target), the stiffer, heavier arrow will, again, outperform the flimsy light. The sharper and pointier the arrow head, the better it will penetrate as well. Mechanical heads have potential to make broader cuts, but there is loss of energy in that mechanical action. Velocity is important to reduce the arc of flight, but if within a few feet per second, the momentum is with the heavier for longer. A better measure of arrow efficiency might be based on trajectory divided by a penetrative drop test[how far the point penetrates a medium when dropped from a fixed height -since all would have the same impact velocity]. Interesting subject. There may be "better" mouse traps, but the old ones still do the trick.

Hi RF let me start off by saying I like what you do and the way you act and talk on your videos. The fact that you back up what you say with facts is awesome not sure how anyone argues with it.Just want to point out that a couple of the ke loss lines 589 and 718 are off I know it's only by one but that's gonna give the nay sayers ammo against you.Also it could have been from rounding decimals but can't tell from the sheet.Once again thank you for your work and videos I enjoy watching them.

I don't think it's the math or the science that people disagree on. The question is not how do I get the most KE but how much KE do I need to get the job done? That's where the opinions and the differences in arrow set ups come in.

I was stropping broadheads in silence but now i got something to listen to😂

Troy just a thought for capturing speed. Put a 1" grid up behind the thorax to a high speed camera capture how fast it moves past and compute.

For your post-pig setup, that sounds like the perfect setup for a high-speed camera. Put a measurement board somewhere in the frame for scale, the measure how many frames it takes the arrow to move a certain distance. Frames/frames per second of the camera) = seconds to cover set distance. Check out a lot of mythbusters episodes or the slowmo guys stuff. at post-pig speeds you don't even need that much frame rate.

No matter how good or bad your form is, the maths (facts) stay the same. Anyone arguing maths or physics is simply showing their ignorance. Great work - hard FACTS!!

Nice hat Mr. Fairy 🫡 enjoyed the content.

i did a test on my setup similar to this a couple weeks ago with my chronograph with a 496 grain arrow launch was 298 fps 20 yards was 292 30 yards was 285 fps and 40 yards was 275 fps so my setup from launch to 40 yards lost 14.5 foot pounds which seems to be losing more ke than what your test is showing but im not upset with the results i just wanted to know what my setup was putting out. great video!

My understanding is that KE is force- at impact. Momentum is force- over a period of time. Heavy moving objects have greater potential to penetrate because they exert force for a longer period of time. Heavier objects are harder to slow down and therefore it takes- more time- to slow them down, and this- longer time factor- produces a higher potential to penetrate i. e. a higher potential to continue moving forward. Even if someone doesn't want to shoot a really heavy arrow, because of arrow velocity loss, etc. if they simply choose to shoot a 500 grain arrow instead of a 450 grain arrow, their potential for increased penetration can be quite dramatic even with just a 50 grain increase in arrow weight provided both arrows are tuned to fly straight.

You could use a conventional chronograph (shooting through the sticks) on the back side of the hog carcass with the labradar data on the entry side (or another conventional chrony on the front. I have used my old chrony for all kinds of stuff - bullets, arrows, kid's rockets, etc

I guess the next logical question is: What is the necessary KE required to effectively kill a white tail deer (or whatever critter you're hunting). If 64 is adequate (which I think it is), I would prefer the tighter pin gaps and flatter trajectory. Trad guys are killing deer in the 30 KE range. I would really like to see you test that 388g arrow (tipped with a 100 grain stinger or similar type bh) on one of your 18 yard hog hunts.

Heard the Cleared Hot Podcast with Dudley and he was very salty about arrow weight. He seems shaken!!!😂😂😂😂😂

Can you explain how you ended up with net ke loss of 6...79-72 is 7... in just curious. Thanks👍

The biggest 2 influencers to date for me the last few years is RF and Lusk Archery Adventures. I did the heavy arrow stuff and it’s not for me. I killed more deer than I can remember with 350 grains and a 2.5 Vortex 20 years ago. With the improvements in broadhead designs and materials due to those 2 guys I mentioned light weight speed arrows are more efficient than ever. For me it’s about hair popping sharp tool steel heads.

RF, thanks for the video(s). The way to get the speed of an arrow as it exits a pig is using a high speed camera with a background that has distance measurements. The math seemed straightforward using this method when Mythbusters did it on one of their episodes. I think they were testing bird strikes on an airplane simulations that used frozen and unfrozen store bought turkeys. Happy Hunting.

Slow mo camera with a grid behind it in the view of the camera. You can then determine how fast the arrow is entering the pig, and then exiting the pig.

Troy , saw you on Meateater yesterday. So cool. Hunting with Janis.

Ask The Slo-Mo guys to film it with their high speed camera, they regularly work out the speeds of all sorts of projectiles, and they can do it from side on.

I said the the same thing the past 40 years bowhunting, if you're worrying about speed and light arrows, never hunt with a recurve and never tell your compound buddies that you shoot sub 250. I've killed over 50 hogs with my recurve, cedar shafts, 2 and 3 blade magnus, rothar, and wenzel woodsmans. All blew through plates on mature big hogs and dumped them within sight. Properly tuned shafts, sharp broadheads that make you bleed looking at them, and perfectly placed shots yield results. 600 gr. arrow out of a 55# recurve produce devastating results. You don't have to go fast.

Use two lab radars one in front of pig and the second one behind the pig so you could have reading on both sides

Ok I couldn't breath for a minute with the tinfoil hat! 🤣🤣🤣🤣☺️

Its momentum an slug foot per second. A 350gr produces 89ft lb an .527 slug ft, 480gr 89 ft lb .617 slug ft, 750gr 50ft lb .582 slug ft.

Welp my results October 6th in indiana swhacker 2.5inch 75lb 29 inch draw 500 grain arrow buck field dressed 220lbs straight shoulder shot far forward buck ran 30 yards died

For your study of the KE contacting the Pig Ribcage and the KE upon existing. I think you need 2 Lab Radar. (one on each side of the Pig facing Downrange)

I read through the comments and it seems to me that the physics-based arguments suggest that heavier arrows, when propelled with the same force as lighter arrows, will have greater momentum and, due to the nature of inelastic collisions, likely greater penetration power. This makes sense when considering the principles of conservation of momentum and the behavior of objects in elastic vs. inelastic collisions. Heavy arrows get the W.

Idk why so many people are debating the math on this and saying you (Troy) are telling people to launch 800 gr logs at animals 80 yards away. Since I have first stumbled on your videos you have said “shoot perfect flying arrows with high foc and the highest grain weight possible WITH A DESIRABLE DROP”. In my mind a 600gr arrow is the sweet spot. I’m also hunting deer in the Midwest where a 40 yard shot is hard to come by.

I'm sure there's many ways to catch that data. One video I saw has a board in the back with many measured squares so one could measure the distance over time.

Troy I had to tell you that I went back and forth with “Big Shot”target people. I told them that I was blowing through their 650fps target with ease. Obviously they wanted to know what I was shooting, and I told them my setup. Ravin R26 with 460gr arrows. They did not believe me. So I sent pictures. I was told to use a more blunt target tip! Made no difference…. I told them to shoot similar setup AT DISTANCE and see what happens. By the way my speed was 380fps. Now I’m not a math major but I know at a 380fps launch shooting 35 yrds my arrow speed is well below their target 650fps rating!! I shredded that expensive target in less than a week. It’s Junk unless your arrows are light. Now I don’t consider 460gr heavy but I guess they are!! You can’t argue with results!! Have not found a target other than the dense foam ones that can stop my arrows “ consistently” Thanks. Mike

Ranch Fairy for president

Another excellent video with very good information for those who choose to use it keep them coming, and as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink .Have you fish east or west Matagorda bay for those sow trout?

Hey Troy I know you’re not a x-bow guy but due to an injury I now am. I did the work to get my arrows basically shooting one hole groups at 30yrds with mine. Here’s my setup-Ravin 29X , arrrow is 520gr. Speed is 393fps with Magnus Stinger killer bee’s. Flight after a lot of dicking around is awesome. So now after getting everything flying perfect and accurate as hell. Also learned to sharpen! What do you think might be a problem or concern for me? Only shooting whitetails. Zombies and lumenocks are the weapon of choice. Crazy momentum and of course KE At launch. Which doesn’t mean shit to me. I would like your or Dr Eds opinion on my setup. I know I have a lot more stored energy but single hole accuracy is there and I don’t want to lose it! Thoughts?? Thanks Mike

High speed camera with a scale behind the target would be able to capture speed. For example if the high speed camera shows the arrow pass 1m in ..05sec you then have a speed that can be compared.

Some, maybe many, states have a minimum of 30# draw weight for a legal archery set-up. It would be beneficial to see the same research from 30# up at 5# increments.

Man Gold Tip was talking major shit on his page bro, keep up the good work

Its just math.. 77-70=8? 78-70=7? 79-72=6? What an I missing here?

The funny thing about KE is all the arrows are within a few ft lbs of each other, but calculate the momentum of each arrow and it’s a difference story.

I need one of those hats

Love your videos, just discovered your stuff and I've always been a fixed blade guy, just got some grim reapers 3 blades to try. I remember you talking about sharpness in some of your past videos. Why don't you get a sharpness tester and start logging your before and after sharpness on different broadheads you shoot.

Its simple, I played softball for years. I had 2 bats one was heavier (not too heavy) my home run bat, the other was my tin can bat for base hits. I could swing for the fence and just get a nice line drive in the gap. The same applies for arrows. You can't get too heavy or you can't swing the bat fast enough to get the correct amount of swing speed. 👍

Merica and adult arrows baby 😂

you can put the same traditional chrono on the upstream and downstream side and hopefully the arrows passes through and doesnt smack it and break it.

For speed after passing through you could set up a radar gun on the down range side of the pig. The type they use for baseball or police use. I could be wrong but I think they can capture speed perpendicular or at least traveling towards the radar.

I was close on the ground one fall to a large bodied buck. I was walking into an area to hunt when I spotted him going into the direction he was going. However the terrain didn't allow me to approach so I did a loop around & he was feeding bigtime so I got close to the area I was going to hunt. But since I had sighted him walking I didn't go to the tree I was going to hunt. I went 50 yards from it where I figured he would expose himself slightly in thick cover. I don't like being on the ground but in my minds eye I thought it was the right approach in my leafsuit. When he got to the spot he stopped & was feeding with his head down. He was half the distance of that 36 yard test range. But his leg closest to me was going back & opposite leg was going forward. Since I was on the ground I shot him low in front of his left leg & the arrow exited tight in his right pit & buried into a dead log 10 feet behind him. He ran very fast for 30 yards & then it was his turn to do a loop around. When he did it he was walking in my direction 20 yards away. Then he bedded & never took another breath. Like he had no air but all kinds of hemorrhage blood inside. The whole event took like 10 seconds. The thistles he ran through had the fuzz which sends the seeds into the air & it kinda looked like snow falling. I knew where I was aiming & hit the spot but I think the head passed through it so effortlessly that i didn't see the fletches as they passed through. If u don't have milkweed like we don't that this thistles thing could work well. Total 570 grain arrow with 275 grains up front. Compound @ 63 #'s with a 250 spine Blackeagle X-Impact which is very solid.

It’s crazy how people don’t understand how units displayed on a graph can skew the perception of data…KE doesn’t start at 60 foot pound and if you displayed this on a graph that starts from 0 you would see that the difference is negligible…64 foot pounds of KE is more than anything that was being shot in the Ashby studies. Being smart is realizing that you are losing distance, forgiveness, and accuracy for 12% more KE by following this chart

Id be curious to see whay you could come up with if you compared the same arrow being lainched at different velocities. Like a 550 grain arrow from a 60# 70# and 80# bow. Or different draw lengths.

In the name of science.. and just curiosity?... just curious. I wonder what a heavy spine lighter weight arrow does. Like a 150/250 spine 400/450ish .. I've always liked the way a heavy spine arrow flew.

Have you looked into using super slow motion cameras to measure speed. The Smarter Everyday guy does some “mathing” with slow motion cameras to calculate the speed of a baseball launched out of a cannon I think. Using one to check speed after it goes through something would maybe work.

My next project is a Ravin R500 fixed blade accuracy with Over kill200 Samurai

Killed an elk with a 377 gr arrow. Shoot 70lbs with a 26.5” draw. First arrow shot a serv1.5. Elk was walking shot back. He took a few steps. Second arrow a sevr1.5 double lung, no pass through.he went 20 and laid down. Third and forth arrow complete pass through with thr magnus. Shot placement is everything.

Very good stuff

@RanchFairy... Man you're not gonna reach the foil hat folks when you keep saying Tinfoil. 😂 We all use Aluminum foil, of course. 🤣 Just kidding congrats on 10lb largemout! Tight lines and keep it up as long as you can stand it please.

Think your math on Net KE Loss is alittle off, 514gr had same loss as 718gr. Come-on man!

From the comments sounds like everyone wants more specific numbers in the table, rounding to whole numbers scewed your math a little bit. Looking at the table though you did lose energy at 718 could we get a 800ish grain arrow for comparison? To see if the diminished returns continue. Heavy arrow is easy to preach whith 350 grain arrows, but some might be pushing to far looking for the best.

labradar problem should be easy to solve. Shoot an arrow into a target to obtain the pre-impact speeds. Stick the lab radar next to an elevated pig and shoot through it from a known distance. The lab radar will collect the post impact speeds as a new data set. Put the two data sets together with a picture of a piggy in the middle. Don't miss... chronos have a reputation for being shot LOL. It will be hard to mimic a live pig though as the chest cavity will be full of soft tissue and blood that it has to cut. You'd only be testing the force drop to get through the hide and ribs, twice.

Finally nabbed that 10 pounder! Nice!

The guy from exodus outdoor gear did an awesome video on speed loss down range. Don’t really care that Mr nock on can shoot a 1 moa group at 70 meters, I can’t, and no one, not even Mr Dudley, can hit exactly where he wants on a live animal. So I’ll take some extra insurance in the form of a heavy (ish) weight.

718 was 7ke loss...not 6

“Net KE Loss” column 3 of the 7 numbers are wrong. Hope that’s not intentional fudging of the numbers… it’s just math

As I understood from the table, an increase in arrow weight by 73 grains leads to the conservation of 1% of energy at a distance of 36 yards. By the way, the foil hat protects against alien radiation.

KE does not mean much if you shoot under it. If you range a deer at 20 pull back to shoot and it moves back 5 yards (or more) how are you supposed to know the exact distance beacuse with a super heavy arrow you have to know exact distances to actually hit. There's trade offs going to these heavy arrows i dont ever see you or any of the other heavy arrow "preachers" talk about.

I suggest this knowing absolutely nothing about how a lab radar works. So forgive me if this isn't a valid suggestion... Could you set the radar up at a higher elevation where it could measure the speed of the arrow before the target, while also getting that reading after the arrow passes through? Or would punting it down above the target essentially at an angle to the ground me with the reading?

Was your velocity test done with the exact same bow ? When ever I have tested arrows through my own croon, as the weight goes up, velocity slowly comes down. My K.E. starts to slowly decrease while my momentum creeps up.For this reason I believe you can definitely hit a point of diminishing returns. Am I wrong ?.

Used to think extreme foc was the way to go until a bad experience with trajectory, long story short my shaft dove into the ground right in front of a small broadside buck although he didnt even flinch when it happenned. Once u try and shoot past 20 yards with anything above 600 grains the trajectory is horrible. Switched back to about 540 grains so i at least have the option of shooting above 20 yards with accuracy instead of just bombing it. Btw i am using a longbow at 54#

Hi Terry, Is the EZ-V still a good "hunting" site option, in your opinion? Thinking on sticking one on the bow. Thank You. Christ Bless! Hawk.

Tim wells is a good example of what your saying probably the best shot in the world but in a lot of his vids he uses grim reaper s and doesn't get pass through s on fox and coyote let alone deer size game. His accuracy and light 350 arrows do things i cannot! My identical arrow setup bounced off the rip of an 8 pt buck broad side 19 yds

For the hog rib experiment, could you use 2 lab radars? One to measure the before rib speed and one to measure the speed post rib.

It’s funny that the guy who has a problem with your content, shoots a 530 grain arrow, but won’t agree with you. Lol 😂 😂😂

What about lab radar to just before your target and then a traditional chrono on the other side? Or a high speed camera with measuring backdrop

Build a scale on the exit side like mythbusters and you can accurately measure the speed.

Another question you won't answer. You keep stating a bow is an equal kinetic energy spring. Looking at the numbers you posted you have an increase of (79-74)/74=6.76% increase in kinetic energy. That is very far from being equal.

Terry, it would be cool if you could work with the @smartereveryday guys and have them bring down their high slow motion cameras. You could calculate the arrow speed at exit the way they measure ballistics, using “math” 😂, with that camera. Would be a cool collaboration if your channels could work together.

If it can read what is coming off the bow with you shooting beside it why not shoot the pice of meat setting beside it like it was shooting a bow won't it read the speed or get shoot through chronograph and have whatever you're shooting through in front of the counter graph and can shoot through the phonograph

Put the lab radar on the back side of the carcass. Protect it with a steel plate.

So what you are saying is bowhunting should be a close range game. I'll stick to my long term FACT that shot selection/placement is the biggest factor in recovering game. 55 pound longbows and recurved with 550-600 grain arrows works every time when I do my part.

A slow mo camera and a measured and striped wall to film the arrow against .

It’s apparently not much different than rifle ballistics. Everyone has to balance a flatter flight path with what it takes to achieve that with each projectile. Each projectile has slightly different characteristics, ballistic coefficients and wounding traits. I wouldn’t take a 470 Nitro on a prairie dog hunt and I wouldn’t take a 22-250 to kill an elephant. They’ll probably both do the job, but at what cost? The limiting factor in rifles is recoil. The limiting factor here is probably ultimately the strength of the arm behind the release. I think analyzing from the wound backwards makes a lot of sense.

Physics. Momentum is the key, not Ke for penetration into an animal. I really wish archers would stop talking about their arrows in terms of Ke. It's just not relevant in comparison the the relevancy of momentum. Bullets, due to hydrostatic shock (shock wave transference into tissue), Ke is relevant, but still really more so the velocity threshold for the shock wave. I talk way more about velocity and momentum in both arrows and bullets than Ke. It's just not a useful measurement in relating relevant projectile drop and projectile penetration.

Looks like 0-40 yards my 480 grain arrows moving at a good speed are plenty

So can you elevate the lab radar high enough to catch the arrow as it penetrates the rib cage? The arrow would still be flying away from you

Congrats on your 10# bass.