4 week, 2 sessions per week squat program is up on my patreon! Patreon.com/Zacktelander

the truth Big Squat doesn't want you to know about

I very much agree with you here Zack. I did my masters thesis on comparing squats to 90 degrees vs past parallel and we also saw the same thing there, although the sample size was too small to find major statistically significant differences, in a practical sense, we still saw the past parallel group improve almost twice as much on 1RM at both squat depths than the 90-degree group (in well trained participants). We also see that neural adaptations are not necessarily greater at higher loads if that higher load is allowed through shorter ROM exercise. In terms of muscle hypertrophy, although not very relevant in this setting, we know FOR SURE that deeper squats are superior.

After I started doing Joel Seedman's 90-degree Eccentric Isometrics, all of my credit card debt disappeared and the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to my dog.

I'll preface this by saying that I am 100% in Zack's camp and that I think that Joel is a charlatan and fraud. However, I think it was a little disingenuous for both of these guys to run the other guys program and expect any real feedback from either side, it was obvious from the beginning that: 1. Joel's branding and business success relies on him being steadfast in his methodology 2. Zack's right, he knows he's right, and knew he was going to be right at the conclusion of this experiment I think it'd be interesting to see two groups of beginner or novice lifters take on Zack's programming and Joel's programming over the course of about 3 months in a coached and monitored environment then tested objectively on strength and athletic performance gains at the end. Obviously I don't know if this would be feasible, but if possible I think would be the most compelling way to debunk Joel.

I was a national level thrower 15-21 & was only taught how to quarter squat (90deg). My knees were fucked by 20, excruciating pain whenever I turned in the ring and I had to retire. At the time I physically was unable to deep squat (didn’t even know what it was). At 29, 8 years of self taught rehab, 5 years learning how to ATG squat. Deep squatting is an expression of a healthy & strong body. Quarter squatting is a representation of peak power in a very short range. Not everyone needs to quarter squat, athletes should sometimes. But everyone needs to ATG squat

In my eyes the quarter squat is death to knees. Load is high and sheering forces are greatest at that point where you go from eccentric to concentric. Accessory moment sure, but done in absence of full ROM squats is asking for trouble.

“If you could explain that in a little more depth”, not sure if intentional but I found your wording hilarious.

Quarter squats have been quite useful for me when getting sprinters ready for track meets, looking to maintain strength, minimize fatigue, and keep the bar acceleration rapid & brief. But for actually developing a strength base, larger ranges of motion are the go-to. Typically we run a lot slower when doing deep squats, much faster when doing quarter squats. It’s not that the quarter squats make us faster, but they’re less disruptive both mechanically and neurologically than the deep squats are. If the lifting a sprinter is doing has a very long time to peak velocity, say 800ms, when they have less than 100ms to produce force on the ground each step, the rate of force development during sprinting often suffers temporarily. Quarter squats and other reduced ROM lifts help keep the TPV closer to the time frames we have to develop force in sprinting & jumping events. So once a base of max strength is developed through bigger ROM lifts, the shorter ROM helps keep RFD time frames closer to the demands of the event while still offering a way to maintain enough strength from what was developed with larger ROM movements. I don’t use them with everybody but they do have some uses. Either way the absolutist approach to any exercise or ROM is kind of wack and narrow minded imo.

I’ve said this elsewhere and I stand by it - I’m convinced Seedman got hurt squatting and never emotionally recovered. Dude seemed genuinely scared when Zack suggested that squat atg

I started doing quarter squats instead of atg and my squat doubled. Thank you, Joel Seedman.

I get the feeling that Joel knows he's wrong about a lot of things, but he could never admit to it.

110kg isn't a lot, but showing that he started at that w/o full ROM shows that he can't get down all the way with just a bar

I love how he made faces after every squat you showed like he was in pain hahaha I had a partial LCL tear two years ago and had issues squatting for a while. Over time though I can say without a doubt in my mind that ATG squats hitting a full ROM starting light and progressively loading more weight my knee feels just as good as before the injury and my squat is also at a lifetime high. Full ROM is great man, get that blood flow to the knee, it's therapeutic! TheKneesOverToesGuy lives by that idea of full ROM and its benefits and dude has amazing results for himself and his clients

You executed that interview well. But I"m surprised Joel being pushed around in a wheelchair by Saul Goodman after those dangerous multi-ply depth squats. From a strongman perspective (where you might go through full blocks with a partial movement as your main lift), there is SOME strength to be gotten from that range. It's just going to be specific to the top end, meaning things like your jerk might feel better, but your full range squat might not improve or might actually regress (accessory, like you said). It would also require you handling double-digit reps with weights close to your 1 rep max.... and people don't know what injury risk is until they commit to deep fatigue in an overloaded movement.

I was in a car accident about 10 years ago. I fishtailed into a tree and rolled my car multiple times. After 6 months of back and neck pain the only way I could feel better was to lift. Not heavy of course. Full ATG squats and controlled deadlifts is what I believe saved me from a life a pain

I love how he didn't even do full depth 4 second eccentric 3 second pause squats in Zacks program lol

Seedman himself eventually relented and admitted that a deep squat in an of itself isn't dangerous, but excess loading IS. How does quarter squatting prevent poor load selection?

"If it’s too heavy to squat below parallel, it’s too heavy to have on your back." - Mark Rippetoe

I have been squatting atg since I was 11 years old. When I was in seventh grade my weightlifting coach use have me demonstrate as the squat example even though I was the smallest, youngest kid in the class. The form was there. It remained there. And remained healthy. Strengthens me from my neck to my feet. 22 years later, I’m good. Never been injured squatting ever. Imo the thing that injures most people is overload/ego lifting. Not any one full range of motion exercise. A person training in general, should never been in such uncontrollable weight range that a full rom exercise hurts them. Use a spotter if you are super pushing it of course. But if you are truly in control you should be able to bail yourself out without injury. This guy seedman, like Jeff cavalier, aren’t really even specimens enough to preach weight training. 40 / 50 year olds that do like a p90x regimen seem to think just because they are fit, they can tell weightlifters what’s good for them when they are completely out of their element speaking on it. Jeff cavalier talks about killing your gains meanwhile he cannot bench press two plates last I checked. Seedmans squat advice is fugazi.

Great Video! I like your open dialogue

huge respect for how u tackled and dealt with this situation, methodical and tactful af

look man...I'm a 50 year old who started as an Oly lifter and then spent 10 years in strongman....ATG squats (that I learned as an Oly lifter) is the reason my knees are still in great shape while all my buddies from strongman are limping.

remarkable that his method for the squat doesn’t even replicate a sit to stand from a chair - one of the most well validated measures of general strength and wellness used in PT.

Zack, you’re a smart guy and I appreciate the nuance you bring to this platform. That’s really all I have to say, but I don’t think it’s said often enough. I don’t agree with you on everything, but I always value your input. 👍🏻

I went through the comments on his recent post and they were all very positive and supportive of him, even congratulating him on winning all the recent debates, but I noticed something strange. Everyone who was supportive of him left a "god bless" or something like that - "praying for your success" etc. It finally clicked for me. His supporters want dogma and want to be preached to. He's not an athletic coach. He's an athletic pastor. Oh look, he went too heavy too quickly and got knee pain. What a shocker.

I recently started incorporating 3 second holds at the bottom of my squats and I have to say I have finally started getting stronger on my squat after being in a plateau for months. Glad I found this video.

Love the tournament theme song at the end

Not a place I expected to hear the unreal tournament 99 soundtrack but I'm definitely pleased.

I gotta say Zack, your taste in video games as shown by the backgrounds is *chefs kiss*

My mobility is amazing, I'm a natural contortionist so my shoulders, elbows, wrists, hands, hips, knees, ankles and toes are wicked flexible. When I squat, if I'm slightly crooked, squatting all the way down will naturally realign my hips and back and get me back in line before I climb out of the hole. Seems to me that quarter reps would be MORE likely to inflict injury, but that's solely from my perspective and the exception doesn't make the rule so I don't know if that really applies.

I quarter squatted and now I sprint at 25 mph, run a 3.9 40 and slam dunk at 5'8" and 315 pounds

I started doing quarter squats instead of atg and ran a sub 2hour marathon

The knee pain and inability to put on his shoes was him experiencing DOMS for the first time

Super ROM squats helped cure my knee problems in a way nothing else had. My right knee used to blow up like a balloon after squatting or using certain leg machines if my technique wasn't perfect. I took the time to figure out exactly what foot position/spacing was right for me and practiced technique starting with low weight going all the way down until my calf and ham smashed together, slow eccentric. I've made it all the way up to 170x9 at 215 bw. My knee hasn't blown up once and it's been such a relief on my life.

The way Joel locks out his knees on his squats, it's no wonder he experiences pain. I don't think he's aware that he can contract the glutes at the top of a squat, and not his damn kneecaps.

This is why I’m subscribed fuck ya

Great work.

Partial reps so you can maintain axial loading probably doesn’t do anything extra for bone density. The force exerted directly on bone via muscle contraction is stronger than any axial load/compressive force you’re putting on the bone with weight placement.

I *absolutely* agree limited ROM is a great accessory for axial loading. This *absolutely* doesn't mean we shouldn't hit depth in our programs, but we should agree partials are a "cheat code" method for increasing load especially towards the end of a training cycle. I would like to see more discussion on the instability aspect of Joel's programming. As someone who has worked primarily with older populations, I'm definitely biased in the direction of stability for fall prevention, and I enjoy mixing balance into my own training (beginning of cycle) for fun & novelty.

The problem with full squats is only that past 90 degrees of hip flexion the lumbar rounds, and we dont want to load a rounded lumbar because that will be low back pain. So the shorcut is to lift the heels by up to 2 inches, so that the femur s head has increased room and doesnt run into the pelvis and we can go all the way to atg without loading a rounded lumbar

Holy shit you survived

Quarter squats are just spinal training, legs are not going to take those weight and get stronger (stronger legs are crucial for performance if the performance is the case) And if your ATG squat goes up your quarter is gonna get up too but opposite of it , I don't think so 🙂

Dude is a literal meme, please let me see how well you mogged him

The only case where atg squat could cause issues is pushing the load too much too early. Keeping pelvic tilt and knee path correct and your chest open is what must be focused on first. I used to have issues when trying to squat deep but now after developing tech, there is ZERO issue with deep squats.

What an insane assertion, I have found the complete opposite true in terms of ROM. Used to squat way heavier to parallel (the standard parallel, ie thigh horizontal to the ground) but it did hurt my knees, so intuitively tried to do partials, squat to a box etc etc). Then a very knowledgeable coach took my squat from scratch got me squatting total ATG with bodyweight, really focussing on hinging, loading the glutes, driving the knees out, slow eccentric pausing at the bottom, and driving back up (the hole is always the hardest point, as it should be). Knee pain totally gone and almost back to squatting the same weight I was before, my problem was lack of mobility in the hips not loading my glutes and spreading way to much of the load to me knees, the obvious answer was to improve mobility, the obvious way was to work on my ROM. I do recognise ISO work can be very good for injury prevention and have added some wall sits before squats. Won't even go into the hypertrophy benefits for full ROM (muscles obviously respond to concentric force, but its been shown time and time again that this is trumped by slow eccentric and maximum stretch under load). Again maybe for sports specific force generation partial squats have benefits as an accessory but for hypertrophy, literally none. To piss Joel off more, even my partials on an exercise are from the fully stretched position when I can't complete a lift but can eek a few partials in the stretched position (even better if you have a partner who can assist some forced reps on the concentric portion) but use this sparingly as like myorep, rest/pause drop set etc it can be very taxing

Use it or lose it. Of course Steadman had knee pain and probably could NOT get low because his body never goes there. He's trained himself to be unable to squat deep and it would take serious work over time for him to regain that ability. I bet he squatted ATG when he was a toddler and never gave it a second thought at the time.

Joel seedman was sore after doing deeper squats - no shit, he actually worked hard for a change lol.

12 years ago I was injured playing varsity rugby. I had a spiral fracture of my fibular, dislocated my ankle and fractured my talus. 3 operations and about 4 years of rehab to get me back to approximately 90% of my previous rom. I had to start somewhere and quarter squats were part of my rehab, they were absolutely necessary at the time as my rom on my left ankle was dog shit. It motivated me to progress to box squats, so I worked hard on my ankle mobility. The box squats were slightly below 90 and they were the best thing for my rehab. I progressed exponentially. I felt my ankle and feet working as well. My quads and glutes were getting good activation too. Quarter squats have their place but if you're fit and healthy atg all the way.

Honestly, what Joel did for your program is pretty revealing. He didn’t follow your instructions, went too heavy out of ego, and blamed the bad experience he had on the program. It’s disrespectful and incompetent.

I always remember Christian Thibideau saying he could quarter squat the world - which always gives me a wee chuckle

Loving the Unreal music

Seedman lacks mobility, and he could be just lazy (not wanting to improve it)... translation, he is making BS excuse to avoid improving

100% agree. ATG back squats, and ATG split squats (shout out to kneesovertoesguy

I got injured at age 11 due to overtraining my legs. Even though I didn't exactly squat, the majority of my training (Karaté) was to hold 90º and above parallel positions. Not saying it happens for everyone (because my injury, Osgood-Schlatter, isn't extremely common), but I'm pretty sure all my tendons and ligaments got f'ed because of spending so much time in this position - I find the quarter squats to put A LOT more pressure in the knee. After I had surgery, during rehab, you know the exercise that I was ordered to do the most? Full depth squats with support. And, because the surgery didn't cure me, what did my sports orthopedist recommended for lifelong pain relief? Controlled full ROM motions. Due to my physical limitations, I can't do the deepest of ATG, I lost a lot of flexibility with the surgery that never really came back. However, I am much more comfortable and painfree just dunking down and sinking my hips, with pause full squat, as far as they go. I have very rarely used quarter squats precisely like you said, to get used when moving to a new weight, and I know I am in for a world of knee pain when doing it. The only thing where I reduce my ROM is lunges, because I cannot risk my knee touching the floor (patella bump from the surgery).

GOLDED words at the end, fitness industry makes wrong turn, "dont be scared homie"

I squat below parallel, most the time not atg, because I don't want to risk my back going atg, when I think I can handle something but can't, atg for me is more an accessory for quite light loads. Not that I can't build it up, but when the flexibility isn't there yet, it's better to work up to it slowly. Noticably below parallel is much deeper than many squat as it is and it's pretty good all things considered but no it's not atg I'm probably 20-30° away from atg.

He’s not conditioned to do full range of motion and likely incapable. In my 37 years of resistance training I’ve used partial range only as a method for recovery (post injury) to continue to “feel the weight”. Full ROM was still utilized just reduced loading as my injured self could handle with strict mechanics. Once you loose range of motion it’s so hard to regain that ground.

the main use i can see with a limited rom squat is force output specific to 2 leg jumping.

Quarter squats are a staple in a lot of top sprinters weight room programs. Even Jumpers/pro dunkers are doing them routinely along side Half squats .. although they’re accessories to the regular atg squats

If I squat to parallel I have an meniscus injury that hurts. But oddly enough I can do ATG squats without pain. I've been avoiding changing the trajectory in the 90° position. I think compression forces don't bother my knee, where the heightened shear forces of 90° knee flexion does.

When your squat is basically a push press

This video has so much lore behind it, it’s insane

The deep squat is the best thing I ever did for my training, I used to squat like Joel because I was lazy and uninformed, then I learnt to squat like a weightlifter. Within 3 months of doing that my squat 1RM was up 40kg

Zach, you need to stream on youtube or twitch you would absolutely be crazy good at it

Wii Resort background still goated. Rumors say you chose this dark background to keep the serious tone of the video HOWEVER do not underestimate how serious you'd be viewed with the Wii Resort background. Might break the algorithm

Very interesting!

I have a little muscle fibre tear in my VMO at the moment and thus can only quarter squat until the pain recides and tear is healed up. I am trying to get as much pwer out of the movement as possible to maintain as much strength as possible while only being able to quarter squat

Nice video Zack. I feel like the only point that really needed to be made here was that you were able to load up his partials to greater than or equal to your ATG 1RM, whereas he had to drop the weight to 60% of his partial 1RM to barely squat to parallel, since he wasn't used to it. If you train ATG, you'll be strong at every position that you hit throughout the movement pattern, including partials. Whereas if you train partials, you'll be weaker and limited in mobility (as Joel himself proved when attempting your program) while trying to squat ATG (AKA barely to parallel.) Of course that's obvious to most viewers of your channel. Him allegedly getting knee pain and not being able to pick up his shoes, is a result of him being weak in a lower squat position than he's used to. I assume you had no problems with pain while following his program. Though he's just proven his entire dogma to be incorrect, as you said, all he can do is double down as this dogma has become so closely intertwined with his brand ($$$) , and his identity as a human being.

The fact Joel thinks that is a deep squat is hilarious

Its never to late to learn and improve

Well I did very well with quarter to half rep range squat reps incorporated into my workouts frequently. I quickly doubled my full squat . I would spend 25% of my sets doing these partial sets but to me they were the game changer . I have never been a fan of deep squats or even competitive full squats I do not have the ankle flexibility to perform them . I have no knee problems.

He doesn't know how to squat. He's squatting knee dominant rather than simply drawing his hips back. His methodology is based upon his own kinetic blindness

ass to grass is good when you have mobility to do it and when you start doing it with an appropriate weight instead of training a lot with parallel level and then just doing atg squats with almost the same weights

I’m going to have check out your other video. I avoided it because I don’t like him but I review your video

conversly, you do a little of Ben Patricks/Charles Poliquins Knees Over Toes split squats and leg curls, maybe some loaded elbow.. on knee external rotator exercises with your regular workouts and will see how amazing it feels ;)

I’m 63 years old started at 13 years old squatting full range no injuries from doing so 🏋️‍♀️

I just don’t understand why there’s a huge amount of people who idolise Joel

Seedman's method is great for ego lifting. Sometimes my ego needs boosting.

The ending conclusion Zach, on adaptation is a pure truth. Train to be resilient, anti fragile.

Pretty ironic that Joel said 90degree or less squats are incredible for mobility- yet shows that he isn't capable of an ATG squat (which is almost guaranteed to be due to lack of mobility).

Quarter squats (fast) are for athletic specific training. Sprinting, jumping, explosiveness. They are more of an in season accessory/impulse day type of thing though.

If you're not use to ATG squating or any full ROM exercise you should start VERY LIGHT and get the mobility to execute the exercise properly before going up in weight very much. Don't start ATG suating with 200+lbs... and then complain that your back/knee is hurting.

I think Enkiri made a short video comment on one of those videos. I did not know they related to a challenge between you and him at that time!

Looks like he lacks dorsi flexion as well. He prolly has trouble hitting depth with any weight. Esp working his range of motion, his body mechanics and muscle have adapted to that lack of elasticity. He def didn't put effort into your program. I'm so glad you took it seriously and gave it a good try for science! Love this video!

If he is feeling knee pain with full range of motion like full squat he has a problem with everything. Partial rage of motion is something that is used in one part of learning full rage of motion.

Hey Zack can you make a video about Functional Patterns if you have come across them? They seem legit but they diss pretty much all other fitness disciplines such as Yoga, weightlifting and powerlifting etc. 😂 I think you might be interested

It's also clear that Seedman does not possess the mobility to go ass to grass. His ankles and hips don't let him.

To get ATG with pause Or BNP with full ROM Or BP woth cambered bar Or Wide pullups with full ROM You need to fix bunch of issues It was even part of my rehab for bad knees and lower back

the poster of himself behind him fucking sent me 😂

The thing about quarter squats is that they do actually have a place in explosiveness and athleticism, but 99 percent of the people who preform them have no reason to train these elements. Most people quarter squat because they want to load up an impressive amount of weight at a public gym and pretend they are doing something, and so they can say they squat a number of weight that no one honestly gives a single shit about.

I question strength training any movement that's not full range of motion. That goes for partial squats, crunches, whatever the hell body builders do, chin reps for pull-ups,non-CTG push-ups, etc. Not to say they won't have their place, but there's something that feels wrong about being strong or powerful only partly through the motion. It's similar to why I'm not a fan of wide or narrow grip bench or push-ups. Something weird putting your arms in a position to deliver power that if you did it as a punch in boxing would be weak or dangerous. Also, that doesn't detract from skill training for a specific sport which might require partial or limited ROM training due to quirks of that sport.

I think there can be some value in the quarter squat. I know I'm not a normal case but I've had too high of mobility in my hips which leads to injuries. Full range of squats badly irritate my hips and quarter squats always make my hips feel much better. I'm sure full range of motion is fine for most healthy people, but there is some value for quarter squats in some cases.

For someone who never squats ATG, he was using a lot of weight. He didn't do himself any favors half-squatting all that weight. In my own experience, when I went from half-squats to full ATG, I had to start over, bar only. Humbling, but I stuck with it. I had heard that full-range ATG would help with a meniscus issue, and it worked.

I didn't know about this guy before but the only time I ever did partial squats was for psychological purposes. And even then I rarely utilized it, preferring deep pause squats instead. They allow one to load the bar more than normal, so you can get a feel for how your target PR weight doesn't feel as intimidating as you may think it is. It doesn't teach you to respect the weight the same way deep pauses do. Nor do you gain explosiveness where you need it most, in the hole.

You are our mannnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally, after I decided to just mix atg, 90 degrees and hip crease matching the knee along with mixing back squat and front squat, everything got better My legs got more explosive, my powerlifting numbers went up, my knees and lower back are all good, my movements got more stable, my lower body and core muscles got more evenly developed, my hips are fine... The only thing is that, even when I go for a back squat aiming for hip crease to match the knee height, powerlifting squat setup, workout I do at least one set with ATG form at the end When I do an ATG workout, it's only ATG So, my recommendation for an amateur athlete wanna be like me is to just mix the forms, you don't really need that much specificity It's is cool to hit big numbers, as it is to have power in different ranges of montions and movements, but what is not cool is pain and injury *My recent squat PR was 170kg/~380lbs for 3 reps, back squat with hip crease matching the knee At 90kg/200lbs bodyweight

16:33 Unreal Tournament!

I’ve grown up in European lifting halls and I’ve been paying attention to the rise of the “Seedman type” in all facets of fitness, i can’t even express how much I despise these new age charlatans, the reality is a lot of them don’t even believe what they preach, but their “sacred knowledge” model sells and that’s what it comes down to, money instead of integrity, their programs are designed to make their clients feel special more than anything, it’s not about results but marketing, and that’s the athetesis of the field.

I think the key is that the Seedman partials are supplementary. Nothing wrong with that if you use the workouts for that purpose, I guess. They're not for me though.