That, giving his build and his football upbringing, makes pretty much sense

I practice sumo 100x more than I practice karate these days

Sumo is low-key GOAT 🐐

Wrestling or Sumo seems a better base in general. A ton of situations end up in the clinch. Seth also showed how usefull Sumo is in self defense situations etc during the self defense championships. Being able to throw people or run them into walls, furniture, other people, trip them over curbs etc while stopping them from doing it to you is kinda handy.

Honestly, getting good with push hands like this would probably be really good for sumo.

Screenshot or it didn't happen

its absolutely a joke, you just suck

yup ti chi xian is extremely similar to jiujitsu or karate.

This will be an unpopular opinion, but you (Seth) are doing the tai chi right. The instructor was wrong to stop you with the wrestling clinches and Uchi matas. These moves are all in the Tai Chi form. This group is 70 percent there but Tai Chi is even closer to MMA, Judo and Sumo than you think it is

Same! My Mandarin tutor was an elderly woman who taught Tai Chi classes with the Mandarin speaking local community. She took me to class with her so I could be around more native speakers. Those tiny old ladies threw me around like a rag doll-- after a brutal leg workout. Glad people are out there showing how rough it really can be!

conflating push hands with application?

@@Purwapada yes it might have been the context of the coach's explanation was lost in the editing. But there is a danger with Push Hands that it becomes something of a circus trick. Too much focus on not being moved and confusing Push Hands with wrestling (a valid training, bit it's not Push Hands) and it's definitely not fighting, a bit like a football (soccer) player who practices ball juggling but never actually plays the real game.

@@steveforde7475 yes well said

@@steveforde7475 - yeah, to me it looked like what I would consider a deca dena (chaining/back-and-forth) loose drill, designed to emphasize and train one aspect of an art. In the Memorization/Integration/Application model of learning, Push Hands looks to be the Integration aspect. The instructor did mention more applications: ie, the discussion of locking up with underhoods vs. just punching the guy, for example. And this may be one reason why Seth was doing so well - in addition to being a generally well-trained marital artist, he may have a tendency to go for more wrestling or sumo techniques....which works to score points (or win, in this case), but doesn't necessarily train the underlying skill that the drill/game is supposed to. Which is a limitation of the ruleset, I would imagine: it's there to train Push Hands, but wrestling techniques actually work better in that context to achieve the stated goal of the drill. And the actual martial art techique that you would use against a wrestler (push off and punch) isn't allowed in the drill, so there's a tendency to use the technique that works, as opposed to the ones you're supposed to be practicing.

Nah, the people in the video have absolutely no clue about Taijiquan.

Especially Chen Taichi. They have such a strong base and can quickly move their weight around.

Well it is soft, a good practitioner uses not more force than 4oz then most of the time less. You just let gravity work for you. Similiar to judo, if you pull someone into a shoulder throw over your body that is hittin you full force then it is not taking much power any more.

This is the worst example of tai chi chuan I've ever seen in 25 years 😄

INTERNAL CHI.

@@david9180 oh please don't do the silly martial art "wot am bestest" thing...

Real Taijiquan also just involves playing with your opponent's balance while your opponent tries to mess with yours. In Judo, I've heard that called the "kuzushi game." Play the kuzushi game enough and you'll be ragdolling people in Judo.

@@rabiesbiter5681yup, being trained in tia chi xian is as good as being a judo blackbelt. judo has unique techniques but the fundamentals are unparalleled in tai chi

This will be an unpopular opinion, but you (Seth) are doing the tai chi right. The instructor was wrong to stop you with the wrestling clinches and Uchi matas. These moves are all in the Tai Chi form. This group is 70 percent there but Tai Chi is even closer to MMA, Judo and Sumo than you think it is

Who was your sifu?

Usually Taiji only gets rough if you get rough. Like if you challenge the headmaster or insult him, then you get torn sinews or your head run into a wall. But normal practice if you follow along is all about staying relaxed, never sweat nor breath heavy. Everything else is violating principle.

​@PaMuShin I don’t know what kind of tai chi you practice if you never sweat. Maybe you were dancing. Many years ago, I read an article about tai chi in a martial arts magazine. The gist of it stayed with me: "It doesn’t matter what style you do. Just, do your form. If you're not sweating at the end of it, do it again. Repeat until you are sweating."

He speaks of energy and liquid conservation through exhalation. This is often the result of medition in motion, also known as a state of zen. Learning proper breathing techniques and focus allow you to sweat much less during training and recover from adrenaline/nerves. Ironically, this carries over into everyday life.

😄😄😄

Uploading it rn!

Connected to this,you may want to look at Armwrestling,Devon Larrat promotes a variant similar to Japanese Arm Sumo. You may find more similarities with Tai Chi.

Appreciate you 🙏🙏

And yet his lineage has produced some very formidable push hand players. Mario Napoli went to China and wiped the floor with the Chen village guys. Josh Waitzkin won the push hand championship in Taiwan

Never knew this, interesting af

Yes, also the meaning of Tai Chi Chuan is something like "Supreme Ultimate Fist". I studied Kung Fu in China, not Tai Chi but a lot at my school and friends were involved with that, and with the old chinese masters of for example Wudangshan, and also Sun Style Tai Chi. Basically what I learned is that the old school Tai Chi in China is extremely violent, deadly and efficient when applied, but these are different variants of the style than the one you mentioned, and that the west is aware of.

@@JonathanJMusic "also the meaning of Tai Chi Chuan is something like 'Supreme Ultimate Fist'" IMO that name does more harm than good. It encourages pretension and mysticism

@@ShredST I completely agree. Just because it's two characters does not mean it is two words. Some Chinese words are composed of multiple characters. So far the best translation for TaiJiQuan that I have come across is "Polarity Boxing".

Tai chi is practised so that you can be a grandad in the park instead of in hospital 🤔

@david9180 haha 😄 that's one way to look at it!

​@@david9180 "By the time I'm forty, I'll be the worlds most dangerous cripple." Tai Chi exists as a vitally important supplimental art, that allows the users of harder, striking based arts to both avoid and recover from injuries. Also additional conditioning is useful

He could also try "liu he ba fa". The paradox of lhbf is that while it's claimed to predate the three better known "internal arts", it has elements of all three.

I'm sure he had heard of them. Combative Tai Chi places are rare

Technically speaking there is no combatitive Taiji in the classical sense, but watch the background. The belts with the tigers and the lion dance equipment on the walls. Plus the stone weights, it has to be a mixed style with southern shaolin combat. There are a lot of teachers doing this. In Taiji you never use stone weights, the typical training equipment of Taiji are balls from stone or metal similiar to medicine balls but never these barbells and especially not applying hard conditioning on the body, internal practitioners despise such practice.

Was going to say the same thing, but you said it far better than I ever could 👍

100%

Oh nothing feels better than holding and moving the "ball". It's been years for me since the last time. This comment is making me think about it again!

Correct. All those "masters" received their certification from the government. They are cultural/tourist assets, not real martial artists, who have never sparred. This video shows a much better application of tai chi.

Those "masters" were magicians, not martial artists. Those videos should be titled "MMA vs man who pretends to know Tai chi"

park taichi is more like yoga than wrestling.

Slow motion training, is very beneficial to Specialized Strength Developments, such as Developing super strong Tendons. However, its only ONE part of this Combat art. Tai Chi, has all elements ranges of combat. From long distance interceptions, to short range strikes, standing grappling... locks... and throws... as well as like +10 different Weapons (Swords, Staffs, Spears, and many more). Additionally, the special breathing aspects... help to create far greater bloodflow circulation, which creates a very different type of tissue / muscles.. and you also get faster and more robust Healing, on top of all of this. Also, the Brain starts to generate new neuron connections... which greatly expands your Bodily positional Awareness, as well as your External Spatial 3D awareness (taking it to a whole other level of abilities). If you want to see a small example of how challenging Slow Motion training can be... Start by doing simple pushups. Do one set, at full speed, until failure. Then a day or two later... Try doing a set in slow-motion. At least 7 seconds down, and 7 seconds up... until failure (no rests between. just a nonstop controlled movement, through the entire session). You will notice, that you will only be able to do a Fraction of the number of pushups, when doing them slowly. This is partially because when you do them fast, you are using gravity... allowing yourself to fall without resisting much... then you are relying on a Momentum Cheat, to help get you back Up. When you slow things down, you cant just let yourself drop instantly.. nor do you have any momentum, to help raise you. As such, your muscles (and tendons) are constantly being Challenged, throughout the Entire Range of Motion. You will develop much greater strength along the Entire path of travel. You will also start to develop stronger joints and tendons... since more time is spent challenging them. In Tai Chi's standing version... you have your arms away from your body for almost an entire hours worth of time (the typical minimal amount of time, spend doing these forms, to gain serious benefits). One of the keys to gaining the proper development while doing these forms... is to try to relax your muscles to the point where your body is almost about to go limp... and fall to the floor, like a pile of Jello. This minimal amount of Muscle efforts, causes your tendons and other tissues, as well as your bone structures, to take up much more of the STRESSES (Work). As such, you start to develop Super-Strong Tendons and other Strong / Density tissues + bones. These strong (yet flexible) tendons, can create a sort of Super-Human like strength. Even much larger and stronger fighters, will have difficulty in moving you.. and or, in them trying to Bend your Posture into a point of weakness / failure. They allow you to also use your tendons.. sort of like Springs... where you can absorb the OPs energy without Uprooting you... and then COLLECT his mass-energy, charging up your "Springs"... and finally you can Release that Stored up energy... to uproot and send them Flying away (or, you can just use an explosive short range strike). Xu Donger is nothing but a Chinese CCP Shill. Hes like the Gracies of China. The Gracies made False claims about fighting "Masters". Yet anyone with any decent amount of training in the arts, could EASILY see that none of these guys were Masters... and in fact, it was very easy to see, that they all were very Incompetent / clueless. The Gracies Cherry-Picked such Artists, because they wanted Easily Exploitable targets, for their Scam. They didnt want to actually risk getting injured (Or Ended), by high level / Masterclass level Fighters. I personally would be able to take out XU, in less than 5 seconds flat (Permanently). I dont say that lightly, either. I have 30 years, spanning many different artforms... and Im used to fighting against FAR more skilled OPs. Many of which, make my skills pale in comparison. And let me tell you... if you think the UFC fighters are "Scary" ?! lol You have never seen, nor felt what its like... to spar against these dudes. There simply is no Comparison. A masterclass level fighter, only needs 2 inches of travel (or less), for example.. to generate enough power to cause Internal Ruptures within the Enemies body. Also, a Masterclass level fighter, isnt fooled by simple Feint tactics, like the Gracices use to set up their Takedowns. In fact, I once attended an Open Sparring event at a Jujitsu school. Normally I dont use Damaging, or KO level forces... when I spar... But, if fighters show me open Disrespect... then I give them a small TASTE of what I typically hold back. These guys were all Blackbelts, and they clearly wanted to "Prove" themselves... via harming others intentionally. One of them started making funny faces, and funny noises... in a display of disrespect, when I went to spar against him. As such... I chose to knock him out, and two of their other Blackbelt fighter, right after dropping him. I used my mostly extended lead guard hand, with a vertical fist punch to their foreheads. I used less than 6 inches of travel... and I never used more than about 15% of what I was capable of delivering. They ALL tried the same feint tactics... such as feinting high, then trying to rush in for the low takedown. But Im a Masterclass level fighter, and we dont Fall for such Simplistic tricks. They were also all very lucky, that I ALLOWED them past my short range Oblique Kicks to their Kneecaps... without Incident. I only ever use such a kick once... at a fraction of the output.. and it put a fighter out of commission for an entire month. And I only did so.. because he said: "You, and Wing Chun... are Sh*T". After he healed up... he never fought against me the same way. He stayed as far away from me as possible... to the point of not really being effective at all. Before that point, he use to rush in like a freight train... and use his greater mass and strength, to try to drive me to the ground (often succeeding, because I refused to use crippling / KO level output. I also refused to play a Grapplers Game, to "change" my typical combat level responses... to suit a Sportized version of Sparring). Anyway... Tai Chi has a lot of high level combat knowledge, and abilities. Its just rare that you can find a teacher that actually knows + is willing to teach you the actual full Combat Art. Its also such a deep art, that you will have to train it every single day, for several hours a day, to be able to develop all of these skillsets (which is a problem not only with Tai Chi, but all high level Combat arts). Since a lot of people are both Ignorant, and are lazy... most modern practitioners will never learn these arts... or... they just wont ever develop them to effective Masterclass levels of capabilities.

It mostly comes from the same place in name. I'm sure a lot of tai ji quan masters who can't fight will claim to be from a certain lineage to appeal to authority and borrow legitimacy. Maybe they even actually trained in that lineage at some point. Maybe a few of them even sincerely believe their training gave them the keys to the fighting kingdom. But they lost the mental and physical training and mindset that makes for functional fighting skills. People who do tai ji in the park for health and wellness in their old age are generally learning a branch of tai ji that has deliberately deprioritized or even entirely abandoned the training of a fighting mindset. But someone who can fight well using tai ji quan is someone who can fight well. Tai ji quan just happens to be the means of expression they happen to use. Seth kind of touched on this when he related his impression of tai ji to sumo and any other kind of wrestling. Without fight-focused mindfulness in your training, any martial art can be turned into a laughingstock. Faff around doing push-ups, and you get bad push-ups. Faff around doing martial arts, and you get bad martial arts. It's just a skill, and skills are just tools that can be used well or badly depending on the person. This applies to any martial art that's gone through phases of popularity, being watered down, used by well-intentioned but misguided practitioners, used by deliberately misleading charlatans, etc. How many krav maga people actually have the mindset and capability of an IDF spec ops soldier? How many capoeiristas know how to use the spirit of the malandro to trick, deceive, and mislead? How many tae kwon do tournament point fighters also train strikes with power and followthrough? Some do, many don't. Because the vast majority of people who pay for martial arts classes don't have to confront the real and likely possibility of personal violence, so they bring a lot of cognitive biases and preconceptions with them into their training, and they are rarely disabused of these misconceptions by the harsh reality of an actual confrontation. Like, for decades sometimes. A capable fighter is probably going to have one or more of these qualities or experiences: being hit harder than they expected, dealing with adrenaline dumps, knowing how to lose and go again, knowing how to learn, adaptability, listening (through physical contact, as mentioned in this video for tai ji), a balance of judiciousness and assertiveness/aggression, accepting that the world is a bigger place than any one person and there's almost always going to be someone you can beat and someone you can't beat, knowing your current limits but being willing to push and expand those limits. A lot of people say that these experiences give rise to humility and wisdom and this often does happen, but that's not a hard requirement for becoming a capable fighter. There are more common or universal traits to good fighters that you can add to the list.

Tai Chi is not just limited to Grappling. It has one of the highest potentials of Lethal level Striking abilities... called "Fajin" (Short range, explosive power). A Masterclass level fighter in the Internal Arts, should find it very easy to KO any fighter, with a mere fraction of his output.. and with less than 6 inches of travel. At full potentials... he should have the ability to cause internal Ruptures within the OPs body... with only a mere inch or two of runway. I, myself, mastered Fajin expression. To date, Ive KO'd 4 different disrespecful fighters, using a short range vertical punch to their foreheads. I used less than 6 inches of travel, and never used anything more than about 15% of what I was capable of generating / delivering. 3 of these guys were Blackbelt fighters in Jujitsu, at their Open-House sparring event. The other fighter, was a mix of Capoeira, and Kook Sul Won (A Korean blend of TKD and Kung Fu). Tai Chi tends to use open palms, in an "Explosive Push" format, for demos, and to be "Nice" to their training partners. However, Fajin expression, is used in Actual combat application... not "Pushes". It seems like a lot of Tai Chi practitioners, dont even know this... which may boil down to certain lineages, or teachers.. choosing not to teach this aspect of the art (or it being lost in these certain branches). Of course Fajin isnt only in Tai Chi. Its supposed to be within pretty much all Chinese combat arts... usually taught last, and often only taught to the most skilled and Trusted of students. Its sort of an Open-Secret of all Chinese artforms. It sounds unrealistic to most... and unless you have taken a Fajin hit from a Master of it... most will never believe / understand... and think its mere delusional fantasy.

@@johndough8115 stop writing long cringe paragraphs

@@johndough8115That…is not…how…physics…and musculature…works…

Taiji is not wrestling

@@user-zr1dr7nz8e I've been practicing Taiji since 1983 including 4 years in China. Taiji is mostly stand-up grappling, and grappling is wrestling. Yes there are differences between Taiji and any other specific wrestling style, but wrestling is still wrestling. Shuai jiao is wrestling, jiujitsu is wrestling, Gouren is wrestling, Bok is wrestling, Burri is wrestling, Judo is wrestling, and Taiji is also wrestling (if not just wrestling). The majority of peple who say Taiji is not wrestling do not see wrestling as the extremely sophisticated and fundamental human behaviour that it is.

@@EdwardH Wrestling doesn't teach you swords and spears, Taiji does, or at least it's part of the system. Agreed, wrestling/grappling is fundamental and also part of the basis of taijiquan, but wouldn't you say that if you thought of taijiquan as just grappling you'd be missing a lot? I think of Taiji as a battlefield martial art that had a spiritual awakening.

If you read my response to you I said that "Taiji is also wrestling if not just wrestling".

Excuse me Wuxia novels tell me Qigong can move mountains

@@koraegi lol

The hell does that mean. Rotation by definition occurs around a pivot.

@@GabrielAKAFinn By making a pivot tai chi establishes a point on the body which remains fixed, (not moving in horizontal space), while the other parts align in relation to that fixed point, this creates rotation by means of continuous leverage.

I'm currently practicing under Yang style and I agree with what you say :) Sadly, in the Taiji community in general, a lot of these true principles are rarely explained to students when they're starting out. :| Instead, they're told to practice in a certain way and expected to "eventually develop what needs to be developed". Or they're given instructions that describe a desired effect but aren't really helpful to the beginner. e.g. asking the student to "maintain structure" in the face of external force (e.g. a push from the training partner) Technically, the instruction is not wrong, but what tends to happen is that the student misunderstands what the purpose of that "structure" is, and uses it to resist the external force (when the main point should be to maintain his/her balance), resulting in "double heavy". While I'm at it, there's also instructions like "feel your opponent's feet through the contact point" or "redirect your opponent's force into the ground" etc etc. Again, technically those are not wrong, but what often ends up happening is that the student misunderstands what "feel" and "redirect" mean, and instead try to *do* stuff to create those effects, resulting in unnecessary tension, again leading to a subtle form of "double heavy".

no knockouts came from george dillman, nothing to do with tai chi historically

I prefer Yang for it's ability to generate power from stillness. Same Jins as the later stage Chen but less visible to the observing eye and the opponent.

Awesome!, I've practiced more Yang than Chen, but I like both, and they are very close relatives. Since I mainly train Northern Shaolin, I like the explosive movements of Chen. I also know a little Bajiquan form and enjoy it a lot!, thanks for sharing your thoughs!

I wanted to get into Chen since before I even knew it existed. I had only ever done Yang on and off for years but always instinctively wanted to do incorporate a more explosive style into it. And then one day someone showed me what Chen looked like. This was a "House" style so I'm sure how similar it is to mainstream Chen... but the guy demonstrating it looked and moved like Bruce F***ing Lee. It was perfect! Only by that time I was already well over 40 and my current sifu was into his 60's and his age was making it less and less likely I would ever get a chance to learn it. And of course it was WAY too hardcore for anyone else in the class to be interested in. So it never came to pass. Damn. I wish I could go back in time and could have gotten private classes on that. One of my big regrets in life.

@@4saken404 I hope you get to practice it!, you could try baji quan, which is "similar". you could find some basic forms and practice them, legend says Yang Luchang lived in Chen Jia Gou, he copied the movements and from that he created his style (Yang), so if he can do it you can watch some videos and practice!

that's real taiji. but if you only saw people practicing the form, you wouldn't know it. that's the "bullshit" you're talking about.

Yep

He’s been on the channel quite a few times now!

I am surprised kev, you never did this when you did Taiji

You’re very cool Kev

@@mrmushin1I was saving for part 2 lol

Cause Kevins Taiji was like the real one, this school is a mixed thing, you saw the tiger Belts? The Lion Dance equipment?`The barbell on the arms? This would never be done by Taiji practitioners. Taiji uses at best balls of stone or metal like medicine balls. And never applies external force. Neither on the body, nor are practitioners supposed to sweat or get out of breath, it is against principle. It is always expected that you reach your goal with maximum 4 oz of force letting people get themselves into trouble. The sumo thing that comes into wrestling is tiger style. Taiji is snake and crane principle. A lot of teachers mix, usually with white crane or mantis so the old folks still can train it too. Yang Taiji was especially reformed by Yang Chengfu to be useable in old age, as such taking away jumps and acrobatics.

@@SenseiSethyou were pretty close with the toph thing, but toph is using dragon, tiger, crane style. But it shares the sensing/listening attribute