shoutout to you and ed. y’all sound like good dudes!

Which minute did he talk about you? Give us the time for those who enjoy wholesomeness pr0n. Also, wish you the best. You seem like wonderful human beings talking about each other like that.

@@ruthtrentwood3374 1:12:24

@@ruthtrentwood3374 don't know an exact time, because I'm watching the video now and past it, but it's around 1 hour 10 mins in when Ed starts talking about his uni experience :)

You're a fucking angel, Luke

i think part of this is the fact that sometimes people cant separate romantic feelings, sexual feelings and emotional bonds to other people. so what happens is that showing emotions can be something that for example doesnt help with sexual attraction but does help the emotional bond. because those are all the same to some it ruins both of them. am i making any sense? on the other hand if they could just see that moment of vulnerability as a bonding moment it could help the sexual part too because at that time those two people are connecting and sex is ultimately about connecting at least inside a relationships. but when someone is attracted to powerful and confident people and someone is vulnerable we get scared but those things dont in fact cancel each other out. those things can coexcist in one person. im rambling a bit now, just trying to make sense of this

Fucking TRUE

While I think that’s true, I also think the opposite is true. I have many male friends who are open with their emotions and vulnerable with me, and I absolutely cherish them. I think one of the big reasons this happens is because people are learning how to resist societal norms and it’s really fucking hard to do. I have noticed that my male friends who are openly vulnerable grew up surrounded/raised by positive female role models, and happened to grow up not even learning traditional male stereotypes. Unfortunately, it seems to be uncommon to find people who are very understanding or empathetic, which is why that problem is so common.

My experience has been different, I've had relationships that only started getting really intimate once we both fully opened up. The sex got better, too. But I don't think every women I've dated were really looking for that sort of thing. Some women genuinely do like men who don't emote much. I don't think we should stigmatize either way.

That's an issue of confidence & self-esteem. If those girls push you away when you're being as vulnerable as you claim then it might had to do with an absence of appropriate validation. So its easier to project desperation, clinginess, just plain ol boring.

Yeah and theirs such a thing as "toxic femininity" also, again doesn't inherently mean femininity is toxic!

In that case, better to just address toxicity in general rather than get caught up in all the weird politics of gender (since gender is inherently neutral, the real problem is neurosis surrounding gender).

Yea masculinity and being a Grade A asshole get conflated too often. I don't think it's inherently bad either, but masculinity is commonly contorted into being a douche.

@@johnreedy9098 I wouldn't say gender is inherently neutral, their are less obvious subtle differences. Modern feminists would argue that fact though. However yes I would agree toxicity is the route problem!

@@johnreedy9098 In the case of toxic masculinity I think it's fair to have such a categorization because it comes from a place that generally speaking from a social standpoint only men can be toxic in that area, because it's the reinforcement of masculinity predominant traits in a toxic way, such as agression (being aggressive towards people around you more than normal), independence (such as not being able to cry, or shaming men that do so, same for financial security and etc) and stuff specifically agaisnt women such as seeing them only for their body and etc.

Holy shit, that's devastating. Sorry you had to go through that

The fear that accompanied that situation must've been staggering but I'm happy a positive came out of it in the end brother. I have a stubborn emotionally distant father as well. I don't think he'll ever change but I've been showing him that it's okay to let your walls down. One day I'm certain he will.

That's not just a male thing, I can't think of many people male or female at that age that is cool with that.

Your father suicide attempt had nothing to do with his masculinity. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity. He was most probably suffering from clinic depression.

@@allopez8563 His idea that being a man means not crying or showing any weakness whatsoever is toxic. Apologizing for being weak after attempting to take your life is toxic. Not talking to anybody about your feelings is toxic. Doing so because you've been told and shown by other men that it's the only way to be a "real man" is precisely what toxic masculinity is. You can't say an idea doesn't exist. Especially when you can see it in action and study it.

Same. As a mom and a woman, this broke my heart. Absolutely broke. My. Heart. We have done such a disservice to our men and boys. They literally don’t know how to talk about their feelings. I taught this stuff to my daughter when she was young. It’s a lesson we work on daily. To not teach our sons the same thing is awful. I don’t understand it. I cried at a couple points. I am so sad for how these young men feel and have felt. I’m also so very proud of each of them for talking about these issues in public. I hope they are helped and I hope this helps others. They give me such hope that we will only continue to improve.

@@truckerdave8465 Some guys also just don't want to talk about their feelings and I think that should also be okay. It's kinda funny how a lot of women want guys to deal with their inner world the way most women do. if it is simply not in their nature to talk about their feelings, then so be it.

@@FeldiArts If some guys really don't want to talk about it then... yeah. You shouldn't talk about your feelings if you don't need or want to (don't know if that's good or bad, but at the end of the day, the person gets to decide how to deal with it). I feel like that goes for anyone. If you don't mind me asking... in what way do you consider women deal with it differently than men?.

You're a girl? GET THE FRICK OUTTA HERE!

@@FeldiArts The problem isn't men not wanting to show their emotions sometimes. The problem is when men want or should share their emotions, but can't because they'll be looked down upon because "that's not how men are supposed to act."

Massively agree it was so heartbreaking to watch how badly they wanted to help but also what looked like fear at getting it wrong.

Literally the most intelligent response on this video and that says a lot, especially since other people have made great points too. "Women pretty much assume that everyone understand social cues like that and expect that men not only know them as well, but that when they seem to not know it's because they dont care or arent trying or pretending. I expect that's why so many disagreements happen between men and women. We're operating under assumptions without realizing that they're incorrect." "I hate the idea that boys are easier to raise because you can just leave them on their own and they'll be fine while you have to watch out for girls and protect them. This is how you get these situtations." *This is so true, I can't believe how spot-on this is. Super insightful.*

@@AlaReDuS So true. I realized women think most men are equipped with the same tools. Only years of aimlessly learning how to genuinely connect with people did I realize the thing I said or did was a horrible attempt at connecting and it sucked cause it seemed like everyone else figured it out.

Yeah I was listening to that part while doing chores. Honestly if I were in their shoes I wouldn't have known what to do either. I likewise would've been silent.

I’m a woman, but I felt as clueless as the guys 😂

Imagine the yearrrssss of repression the person went through (or is going through) who said that to you. Damn. One little sentence told you a lot about their experience with life.

Nah, it’s just because they are not so close like you do with your farther, so they become an idiot

This is just sad

​@@user-ti7me6yv7wno is a word

I wont either cry at my fathers funeral. Good job bro. Must have been tough. I'd rather cry for myself instead of infront of everybody else.

A subtle but important distinction.

That's actually a very good idea. It would be more accurate. It could also curb some of the outrage over the subject, with "masculinity" not being the primary subject matter. Of course people will always try to misconstrue, but it would take away the argument that toxic masculinity implies that masculinity is toxic

Something that is toxic will always be inherently bad in my mind. There is no way to soften the idea of something being toxic. No adjective you use will make something toxic into something good. So using masculinity as an adjective/descriptor sounds like you're villainizing masculinity even more to pile on the idea that there are varying types of toxicity, but this type is the masculine brand of toxicity. Honestly there's nothing wrong with the term "toxic masculinity". By it's very nature, it implies that positive, healthy masculinity exists. The fact that you're specifying "toxic" as the adjective, there has to be an opposite that gives the adjective weight. The adjective "big" only has meaning because of the inherent idea that some things can be small or normal sized. Toxic masculinity is the idea that masculinity is fine on a baseline level but, like anything good, you have the extremes where it can become a negative thing. The issue is that people think that toxic masculinity means that all masculinity is toxic when it's just describing one negative extreme. Leaving toxic as the adjective indicates that there is another, healthy variation by default.

I think instead, we should spread awareness of toxic femininity. I don't think reversing the order of the words will really change people's perceptions.

@@ZariDV yeah for real lmaoo I can't understand why people interpret it otherwise

men are better problem solvers which is why i feel we think this way

I’m literally trained to sit with people and still catch myself trying to fix them when they don’t want it.

Bit of an old post but this resonates with me too. I really struggle to not offer solutions when people bring me problems when sometimes they just want emotional support and I think I barely even know how to do that.

@@mikasasukasa4479 do you think that may be because emotions are shrugged off so guys get straight to the point of what can be practically done? Maybe emotions are too wild of a beast to understand and bother taming, and it's easier to just slay them, technically

@@christopherholfeld8137 oh that's actually bad. It's often important to let people just vent because the situation is stressing them out. Even if there's an easy solution to it, solving it doesn't always resolve the stress like that. Giving someone advice when they just want to vent is almost like you insult them as people that don't know how to solve their own problems like adults. Oftentimes they know how to solve it and will do so the next day, they just want to share their struggle and relate to other people through the stress that is human life. If you do it without realising it, try to ask in the beginning of a conversation what the point is, if it's to vent or if someone actually wants advice.

Vice is just one virtue elevated above all else (probably a paraphrase).

im stealing that definition

You do realize that example is clearly over thinking it. It matches with dr k previous topic about why you think people dislike you. It’s way overboard.

@@Noflexing100 I don’t think it’s way overboard, as a lot of times men are told to do “masculine” things even when they can hurt their health, mental health or social life and relationships.

@@BringBackOGClubPenguin I hear this a lot but don't see it

Dude, same :/ i still remember my own brother saying i have no right to complain just because im a girl. We can also learn through shitty environments that being vulnerable gets you in trouble...

No matter what the issue is, the trouble is finding the right people to open up to. Once you find that, and realize that those people are willing to listen and accept, sharing becomes much more manageble. There will be those that dont understand, or choose to not accept sadly. But finding someone more open to listen, I doubt it would be a big deal for them the gender or anything like that, the important thing as I see it, is that growing up in an abusive household sucks, and that those experiences aren't your fault.

Iam 20 and in the exact same situation i have tried to be more open about my feelings but I physically cant my mind goes blank and it makes me feel like iam only doing this for attention even though i know thats not true

I can highly relate to that, I grew up with 2 older brthers and believe me not a single one of us know how to express our feelings even though I am a girl. It has everything to do with how we were raised. Being vulnerable means to us being incompetent and weak, even to some extent allowing yourself to be sort of a prey. Pretty fcked up now that I think about it.

you don't have the right to complain tho....stop whining

That wall of silence is very familiar. I don't intuitively know what empathy and reassurance even sounds like so when someone opens up like that I have no idea how to respond. My mind goes completely blank and I can't speak any words beyond "wow that sucks" and then usually making some kind of joke.

Probably there is some misconception in society. 1. It´s different to "express" emotions. 2. it´s different "having certain "emotions" as a part of your personality and identity. Expressing emotions is something fleeting, impermanent, something that transforms into something better, calm and humorous, within one day. Having certain "emotions" as part of personality or your "mood" is something that stays with you. Society probably doesn´t define a two different things that expressing emotion that turns into some "humor", isn´t the same as having a "permanent emotion" that never turns into something better... because as people who practice meditation, say nothing is permanent anyway... therefore even the emotion is not permanent. Therefore practicing mindfulness and meditation is so inspiring.

I dont even know how to break out of the autopilot, I dont even enjoy anything anymore. It be difficult

I had my first break in the disconnect since quarantine started, It's not pleasant to suddenly change your feelings on things and shift your relationships with other people.

Fr

Yes

Yeees!!

Sorry my ignorance, but who?

@@cerealofdoom2125 search for "being ugly my expérience"

@@cerealofdoom2125 Never Give Up (NGU) is a a guy who is sort of known for being ugly. He blew up from a video talking about his life and what it’s like being very ugly. He still has a pretty positive outlook on his life even though he was dealt a bad hand, and many people admire him for that. Just look up “NGU Ugly” for more information.

@@qwertyasdf4081 Thank you man, appreciate it

I wonder how much of the emotionless robot trait is a result of toxic masculinity vs. emotional depravation from parents growing up. I'm curious if some people are conflating these two things.

​@@Marusinae I can see that possibly being confused, so I'm sure some people are conflating those two. It's hard to separate them too though, because the emotional depravation from the male parent can also be toxic masculinity. Dads are also societally driven to not be emotional, give tough love, etc. But I can see that there could be another cause when it's from a parent.

@@yuchant In the cases of an emotionally depriving father, usually there would be a mother that would pick up that slack. However, either parent is capable of emotional depravation and in my case it was my mother whom I lived with because my parents divorced, so I've become a bit of an emotionless robot myself. I just think that as a society, we shouldn't assume men being emotionless is due entirely to toxic masculinity, other factors may exist like in my case. Basically, view things on a case by case basis rather than just apply a blanket reason for why certain types of people exhibit certain behaviours.

​@@Marusinae Ah I understand. I hope I didn't give off the impression I was making a blanket statement. I used the word "can" to suggest it's only a possibility. I agree with you that we shouldn't think men being emotionless is entirely due to toxic masculinity. If you don't mind me asking, how do you think being with your divorced mother made you an emotionless robot?

@@yuchant Nah, don't worry about it. My mom was too focused on herself, especially during the most formative years of my childhood. She was always too busy working and finding another man pre and post divorce during her off work hours, constantly incurring debt by buying beauty products and jewelry off of infomercials, she would just leave me to my own devices and didn't really pay any attention to me outside of needing to provide basic needs like food, clothes, shelter, occasional medical checkups. When she was in the middle of all the divorce stuff and during the times she was single afterwards, she was angry and unpleasant to be around 75% of the time. If I came to her with a problem, it was usually met with either hostility or not really caring about it. As someone who was bullied quite a bit in school during those times as well as being picked on by my older brother and sister, I didn't really have anyone to rely on. I only got to see my dad twice a month and he was often busy with work.

Damn. Beautifully put.

FINALLY an insightful comment. Hypermasculine and "toxic" masculine traits have been rewarded with reproductive access in primate species to the extent that its a trope. Shea's mom was remarkably self aware compared to the feminist goons menstruating over the comments section with more man blaming in a video meant to help men.

@@VastChoirs it's not taught by women, its taught by men. Sure women condone it, but the source is from men. Little boys do not interact with women in that way, they interact with their fathers or other men who teach them toxic traits. Men have most of the blame, but women also carry some, much like watching someone drown and not doing anything.

@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 Why do men teach it to their boys? Why do women teach their girls to dress pretty and wear makeup? We set up our children for reproductive success whether we realize it or not. We as men know what women want, and we pass it on to our boys. And yes, women are at fault as well. Studies have shown that women across many cultures hold their babies differently by gender. Girls are held closer to the body and in a more loving manner, and boys are held further from the body. This stuff starts at birth, and it starts with the mother.

@@kassokilleri2ff if you truly think dads intentionally model and bring up their kids for reproductive success you’re silly. Dads model their kids after themselves. They teach them the values that they themselves hold. No parent intentionally raises kids to be sex monsters. Men teach boys toxic masculinity and that’s plain and simple. Oh and that whole thing with mothers holding their baby different probably won’t a huge effect on someone

@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 "only one of the sexes does this" "this sex has most of the blame" what's your issue? How come you are so biased, yet unaware of it?

I understand what you’re feeling, but try not to keep telling yourself that you’ve lost the opportunity to have your best years. Everyone has their best years at different stages. For some people it will be their early childhood, but like in the case of my mother, she says she’s currently living her best years (at almost 60). Then there are others who are determined to make their every decade better than the last one, which is more enviable in my opinion. The idea that we can only have a small span of great years and then the rest of our lives is downhill is super depressing AND suppressing for ourselves. We’ll only gradually decline in satisfaction if we decide to allow ourselves to. I hope this can at least somewhat encourage you because I hate the idea of you feeling that way.

@@CestLaVieMonAmor Hey, thanks for support, I appreciate it!

I'll second Katelyn. Hard as it may be, don't focus on time wasted. Besides, if you see it like that, it means you're not doing it anymore and you're not stuck or stagnated. You'd really be in trouble if you were blind to it. Basically, I'm saying don't regret the time you didn't spend growing, but rather see your recognition of it as the first step away from it. Congrats! It's like how truly crazy people don't know they're crazy. If you think you're crazy, you're not.

@@bennymountain1 huh , and here I thought I wasn't enough self-aware in my teenage years. It's relieving to know that it happens at different times. You should know that I'm only 19 and can relate to what you are feeling so I understand you a little bit. Wish you luck man! :)

Same here. I'm 27 and I feel like I've wasted so much time. Chasing women that I knew wouldnt choose me, feeling like I'll never grow up, being down on myself about everything. Just an emotional wreck.

All radiation is electromagnetic tho

​@@MLGeorge Gravity, sound and heat would like to know your location, my dude

amazing statement!

@@ShazyShaze so heat, in the form of "sun" radiation is infrared radiation, sound is a form of vibration energy in the form of excitement of matter and gravity in an inert function of mass.

Radiation is electromagnetic lmao. Agree with the sentiment tho :DD

I agree and i think it is important to teach people how to express thier emotions and how to find support in their friend group, but I feel like the entire conversation around masculinity is negative and toxic masculinity is the only masculinity people hear about. So many young men would be better served learning about healthy masculinity.

​@@sethboyd2217 healthy masculinity is what we as men should strive for and the first step is understanding what those terms mean. Men should support and uplift each other. Toxic masculinity is recognizing what traits hurt men and constrain our roles in society.

It is all bullshit and grandstanding. Be aware of those who demand you show them your weakness. Respect must be earned. The care and trust in each other, actions that show loyalty. The courage to call wrong actions.

@@really-._.- true

It happened for me with my current gf, but I had to go to some others that were not ok or surprised when I showed vulnerability. Looking back on it, back then I built an image on me being cool and dettached, so I don't know, a little of society's fault, a little mine. Good luck out there

It's happening for me a lot. My better friends are female.

Check out Arash Dibazar and Shane Smith to learn the truth about male-female dynamic

I agree with you, to me it's logical, and it's something we do or want to do as women as well : having spaces where we can discuss things more openly, between peers and without the fear of judgement from the other gender. We all need both kinds of spaces : the "between men" and "between women" discussion spaces, and then other open spaces where we can share and explain. They serve different purposes.

Agree

I was in Boy Scouts and I’m really great full for the perspective it gave me. There were boys that I looked up to and boys that disappointed or scared me. Their actions and character helped me better understand the man that I wanted to become, and I don’t think I could’ve seen their true nature had it not been an only boys environment.

Totally agree. It's also important to destroy this idea that male spaces are inherently dangerous.

I'm glad if you think this helped you, though not sure how much- IME, and the experience of many other men I've known throughout life and natural pattern observation of others, it is more so the males (especially the toxic ones) that enforce such pressures/judgement of gender, to both genders. In fact, having to stay in a space of mostly men to 'develop masculinity' indirectly does the same thing (perhaps even more so judgemental and even sexist) intended to avoid. I can honestly say I haven't met many males with this viewpoint, esp in terms of self-help.

i was thinking the same thing! he is very insightful and wellspoken

I think he said he was a bartender, oftentimes they act like therapists as part of the job

Yeah very clear headed and able to phrase his thoughts and emotions easy to understand and feel connected to.

He seems like a pretty well rounded person. I'm sad his emotions about his past dont allow him room to recognize that fully

Part of disconnecting yourself as hard as somebody like Shea is that to understand human interactions, you stop understanding them in emergent ways and sort of understand everything as an action. When he said something along the the lines of "Humans are just made up the skills they act out" you can tell he's thought a lot about his place in social interacts. I've felt this way a lot too, what's the purpose of optimizing myself if I don't have "joy". You become good enough at understanding behaviors of people and yourself but there's literally this "feeling" people say they have that Shea says he doesn't feel, and I also don't feel.

That comparison is insanely apt hot damn. Explains a lot on why my family isn't supportive of my "low and slow" approach to life. I wanted a gap year before college, that didn't happen and I cracked in year 2, failing so many exams I decided to just not show up for the last one so I could repeat the year. Nobody seemed to care about the underlying problems, I could see that they just grudgingly accepted my choice because they couldn't force me to do it. Same thing now, though I may have been making headway (or have grown delusional) because I have received far more understanding. I just...sometimes lie awake at night after having done nothing the day before and I feel like screaming in frustration because I'm pretty smart, I learn fast, I SHOULD be able to do it. But I can't. I just...see how much work there is to do and I choke. I need to dole it out in such a way that the deadlines are not on the same day because otherwise I just can't do any of them. And the words start ringing in my ears "you're not capable of anything". So with all this baggage I need to be like a modern car, flow with things when I can so I don't hurt myself even more. And if I look bad because of it from others' perspective, fuck 'em. I don't have to care about what judgemental people think. Until they care to learn my side of the story without me screaming it at them during a desperation-fueled breakdown, I don't care about their opinions.

Perfect analogy.

This is dead on what toxic masculinity, or any kind of upbringing that reinforces externally perceived strength, is like. In my case I had tiger parents who reinforced this kind of personality. You're not encourage to show or talk about feelings leading to what you described.

Problems with analogies like this is that they make for very bad arguments in general. And I doubt this case is any special. After all, what if you need to keep going in life and the right amount hasn't passed yet? What if you need to pay the bills to move on? What if the society needs more houses to be built, and the construction workers are too depressed? Do we just give the workers a tome off for as long as they need just so they can take care of their "mental well-being"? Businesses need to be run, society needs to function, kids need to be fed, bills need to be paid, houses need to be built, food and products need to be transported. You don't just give people the freedom to not do these things bevause it's had a bad impact on their mental health. Society would end up broke if it functioned with your mindset. And what do we do if manifesting our grief leads us to do stupid things? For example, isn't the average dude who pays for camgirls letting his grief "manifest" and releasing it by paying for cam shows? Isn't that sexual/romantic pleasure gained from paying camgirls temporarily helping him overcome any grief he may or may not have? Isn't he more in touch with his grief than a dude with similar past experiences but neglects that desire for romance and doesn't pay for camgirls? Problem is, acting on your emotions has a negative impact on your life directly, whereas making rational decisions has a negative impact on your "mental well-being". And it simply isn't always clear which to prioritize. And not only that, sometimes you simply can't afford to be emotional and make the stupid decisions people tend to make when they appeal to emotions.

I am years late to this comment but I wanted to say that what you said was super powerful and insightful

It's heartbreaking.

It's also a sign that there's no dominant person in the group, and that there's ambiguity about who should answer first.

Сильно повлияло?

thank you for sharing, brother

i feel that 100%. when the teacher says he's gonna start calling on random people

Yeah, I was really interested in this subject , but in the beginning this video was like pulling teeth....

Self soothing gestures all around 🤣🤣

A lot of it is, glad u found Dr.K and glad you're making progress!!!!

This can actually apply to you so that you can try to prevent reinforcing toxic masculinity when talking to other guys

I feel like a lot of specific things Dr K deals with are more universal than it may initially seem

To add on to what others have replied about females also perpetuating toxic masculinity, just look at Shea -- it was his mom telling him what type of guy girls would like that really stuck in his head. So whether or not you have kids, want them in the future, or are around young impressionable persons, taking this into mind is helpful!

@@CMDAwesome women do not have control over what turns them on(this applies to men as well). it is practically impossible for women to stop the reinforcement of toxic masculinity at a grand scale

The thing is that men and women are equally prone to internalising and perpetuating sexist ideas (studies show that), whether that be toxic masculinity or toxic femininity, but it's not acknowledged often enough. It's often portrayed as if women are just naturally more "woke" which ironically is (benevolent) sexism itself. In the end, it's a matter of luck or bad luck what role models one grows up with by chance

@@pandapanda246 Yeah. It's really about toxicity targeted at and implanted into men from society. Men are very much victims in this too when they're inculcated with toxic masculinity.

@@LagMasterSam I think a huge part of the discussion is that men suffer because of toxic masculinity and are very much victims of it, but somehow it's hard for a lot of those victims to see the connection. For example the reason why men have such a hard time to get the right to their children in family court even if they are the better parent is the notion that men are inherently worse parents compared to women, which stems from the idea of the unemotional man (toxic masculinity) and the Mother archetype (all women are motherly --> toxic femininity) victims of this will say it's women's fault that they get treated so unfairly, when this is missing the point, in fact it's a sexist idea that is perpetuated by men and women equally. Men and women suffer through sexism in different ways but both suffer and both perpetuate sexism, so the solution is to work on it together instead of pointing fingers to the other gender. I wish more would understand the depth of it.

Exactly.

@@pandapanda246The fact that people can't see it this way is terrible.

A bunch of *socialized* girls would do that.

A bunch of socialized guys would do that too tbh.

@Abz it gave them a lot of pressure because a lot of guys have never done this before if anything they are told their entire live from a young age to actively avoid this and that they shouldn't do this. Guys never have been taught and told ok lets have a conversation in a group and lets talk about each other emotions and ask questions about it. They don't know how to do this or do it well and now they are asked to talk to another guy about his emotions in front of thousands if not millions of people online

@@harold926 That's true for everyone. If a group of random women were asked to do this, it would be the same.

Who honestly wants to be talking about their personal emotions to total strangers and also have it posted online. Thats perfectly natural nothing to do with men not know how to emotions.i

@@juanfromdennys you just blatantly downplayed his comment and everyone who feels the way they just described.

Any sort of group interaction around a designated topic is tricky, especially over the internet.

This term is accurate - however there doesn't seem to be much clarity on what positive masculinity is. It feels like the toxic elements are the ONLY elements, and even these now are being promoted in women; to be strong, dominant, decisive, independent. It can be helpful for them obviously - but there's a lot of kind, gentler women now that will feel the similar inadequacies in the future as men do now.

@@Balloonbot Because the term is useless except for political agendas. We are basically talking about masculine traits going extreme and what's extreme is a whole another topic. The same goes for toxic femininity.

@@DarkThagan Well many defects are just the inability to temper qualities. Just like determination can veer into stubbornness, calm can veer into apathy or being healthily distant from situations when it's called for veers into callousness. Look at it the other way, in a medical sense we have the term "a toxic dose of" which means an amount of something, usually a drug, that would have very positive effects in the right amounts but gets overused and becomes unhealthy. Exact same thing with masculinity.

@@chukyuniqul The distinction there though is that we don’t label the drug itself as toxic. The toxicity is attached to the excessive quantity. Toxic masculinity as a term does the opposite of this. It’s not specific to any particular masculine behavior or to what degree it’s expressed. It just paints masculinity broadly as “toxic” in some vague way.

@@samuelroskelley2413 as we can see in this video, that is not the case. Nobody says self-control or liking pretty women is toxic (nobody sane, anyways), we say it's toxic to harass other men for not conforming to the traditional male stereotype. It's toxic to emasculate guys for not being as physically strong or emotionally aloof. It's toxic to objectify women and act entitled to their affection, not to shoot your shot with a girl you fancy as long as you do it politely and take no for an answer if it's the case. It's not bad to be determined, but it's bad to be stubborn. It's not bad to be decisive but it's bad to be impulsive. It's not bad to lead but it's bad to dominate. And so on.

no one does that

@@vivvy_0 Which part / what do you mean?

@@vivvy_0 people do it, you just haven’t found them yet

@@vivvy_0 im sure you will find people like that

I don't understand what you mean by this but I liked reading it so I think it's a good thing lmao

Oh yes yes all the men here are beautiful and I love Omer's accent. Men are pretty cool when they accept who they are.

Excellent, underrated comment.

Putting an adjective in front of a noun doesn't imply that it's present in all or most cases of that noun! It's like saying stray dog, spoiled food, pretty girl, radical feminist. It's just a subsection. Just how radical feminist =/= feminists are (all) radical, toxic masculinity =/= masculinity is (all) toxic.

I suspect you are familiar with New Discourses.

What's the difference?

@@TheBetweenSkill can you elaborate?

@@Birrrrra being a good man = trying to fit into the society's expectation of what they tell you're supposed to be being a good person = trying to better yourself not for the sake of any expectation you're trying to achieve but for the sake of your own self to your own desire. The thing is everyone should just be a good person but society has alot of these gender roles that makes people strive for these gender roles rather than themselves, i think thats the best way i thought of explaining it.

@@neutrality0085 can't a good man better himself for no reason other than self fulfilment?

@@Birrrrra ah i see what you're going for here but unfortunately i don't think what you're talking about is a matter of whats the right or wrong way but rather this is a matter of context, it seems you're placing being a "good man" similarly on the spot as just simply being a good person i assume? if thats the case then we are all on the same page although this should really just be called being a good person regardless of the gender associated. What the topic at hand is talking about however is the gender role stereotype version of a "good man", as this is tackled in this video the invisionment of a good man induced by society's gender roles that creates various identity problems and surpression of certain emotions and a toxic stereotype of the gender as a whole as we see in this video itself, the thing about a "good man" is this doesn't exist and shouldn't exist in my opinion, everyone is themselves and should just strive to be a good person, a man can be just as nurturing and sensitive as a woman would be with their stereotypes and a woman could be just as similar to a man with their stereotypes, do you get it now? I myself have an example of such right in my family, my mom is far stronger than me my dad and my brother and if she were to be a man she would be way more "masculine" than any person i've met so far, shes a security guard and those who know her respect her for who she is, she doesn't take shit from anyone, is mentaly stronger and is overall the female version of a chad i'd say.

the point is that shea himself also suffered from toxic masculinity. i think the point of this interview essentially became to show that toxic masculinity is negative on both sides of the coin, and even those who live in it or embody it are harming themselves as much as others

​@@deensama7718 I mean Shea is exactly what I considered as the standard victim

it's definitely something people have to learn and not something that comes naturally to many, especially when it wasn't taught in your family. This means you can actually introduce that to circles of men, because from my experience, most men are struggling with something and have nowhere to open up to.

it's definitely something people have to learn and not something that comes naturally to many, especially when it wasn't taught in your family. This means you can actually introduce that to circles of men, because from my experience, most men are struggling with something and have nowhere to open up to.

Im a year late but your comment struck a chord with me. Thabk you for your empathy... Truly. I dunno why i felt the need to say that to you as opposed to everyone else, but i really mean it. Sometimes just being reminded that women dont all default to men being gross and terrible is such a spirit boost.

@@brycesumrall7248 There are still some good humans on the planet, don't despair! :) I hope the day is treating you well.

Sounds like Dr K‘s description of Ego hiding insecurity.

@@synlion I know the superiority was in part a defense mechanism, though I don't really see any insecurities there.

@@synlion Yeah I agree. I can relate to that comment, because in the past I was the same way. Thinking like all those "athletic muscle chimps" are all stupid and have no personality etc. But in the end, that's just a way for my own ego to build itself up when I see someone different from me succeeding in something I would have liked to be able to do. And instead of doing something to become more like that. I would double down on the opposite, I'm so much smarter and introspective and "cooler" in my way. While there may be some truth to that I value certain features more than others, there was never any reason for me to look down on other people to realize that I have my own positives other people may not be as adept at. I think that type of thought process comes from a place of resentment and jealousy, whether one is aware of it or not.

@@gaijinyade While I acknowledge your experience, I wasn't looking down on athletic people, I was looking down on people who'd ostracize others for not adhering to the gender stereotypes, for being so close-minded and unempathetic.

@@NoblesseOblige-17 Yeah, sounds like we have different experiences. But I still think when you reduce others to make yourself feel better It's still your ego at play. And of course It's not pleasant to admit that it could be due to insecurity in yourself but that is literally the only reason I could see as to why one would do that whole mental dance. It's also not a very empathetic way of thinking on your end. Since you do look down on others, even if you feel like they deserve it or not, that's just the thing isn't it.

Me too! He seems really interesting.

I resonate a lot with your perspective. I think I've been on both sides and I still am closed off sometimes depending on who it is. I like to talk about deep stuff quickly and it can be overwhelming but there are also people who I can't deal with. If I don't trust you or if it's a group setting I don't feel comfortable. My family doesn't have a clue about all this and I always felt my mother doesn't care to hear anything substantial, it is surface level only and that stunted me growing up. Not having any emotional support. I really tried opening up to my last girlfriend but I increasingly felt like she was unable to empathize with me. She was stuck in her own head and her problems always came first.

I got that at the start but tbh towards the end I think they just didn't know how to respond to some of the things Shea would say

@Light Myst Same here.

Yup as a sensitive guy never understood this. Never had the courage to call the truly hurtful words for what they were. Just hid behind my wit and developed insecurities on the inside. I always had a lingering feeling of, where are the boys that will support me for who I am, instead of playfully tear me apart?

That sounds so sadistic, what do you think is the intention behind it? Or is it just copying the behaviour of peers?

@@pandapanda246 It's a part of masculine culture that's pretty toxic. I think it stems from the notion that boys should be be tough and be able to shrug off words because they don't physically hurt you. I remember this exact thing in middle school growing up where it seemed like you couldn't fit in if you weren't able to roast your peers and for someone where that kind of thing doesn't come naturally it's really easy to not know where the line is of what's acceptable. I remember constant insults being thrown between the guys when I was lucky enough to get a seat at the lunch table and I remember getting fed up with being the butt of others jokes and not knowing how to fire back so one day I ended up putting a lot of thought into coming up with an insult that i thought was so strong that people would either be impressed or at least know I was willing to defend myself. It was something about their genes being poison and that the best thing they could do with their lives is never reproduce. When I said it no one laughed they were just like yikes too far man. I was embarrassed and confused because it seemed like there was no way to succeed in that kind of situation unless you were one of those kids who got it and were good at that kind of banter but at the same time if I didn't participate then I ate lunch alone which outside of just being lonely was fodder for further ridicule.

Sadly, 'giving each other shit', or ganging up and bullying 'gay'/weak/effeminate men (or other minorities) is the only form of bonding a lot of men experience.

You hit the nail on the head with this comment. I certainly want the men in my life to know that it's okay to talk to me about shit, and I dont judge or belittle them. However, it does make it hard to date those same guys because the baggage they dump shows sides of them that make them not compatible to date. For an example, I slept with a guy, hookup style not relationship, and during the cuddle session afterwards I was stroking the back of his head and he proceed to tell me all about how he doesnt normally let people touch his head or neck because of some trauma with his dad. And he talked for hours about his childhood, abusive dad, his drug problems, friends dying,and sooo much more. Kind of like how shea and ed said, when the faucet is on it's hard to turn it off when you're in the moment. I still talk to this guy and make a point to be his Luke and listen, and I'll never tell him to stop expressing himself because I'm afraid if I tell him it's too much he might close up again and I can see he really needed someone to just hear him. The issue is that now I cant see myself dating him for real even though he kinda hints at it because i cant handle being his therapist every night. Like for about 2 months I slept over because he didn't want to be alone, wanted to talk because I was good listener and validated his feelings, and made him feel comforted which he hadn't felt almost ever. He is just 1 example of scenarios I've had with men who dump too much too soon and it kills relationship stuff because you become a shoulder instead of a person. It also doesnt help that I have the kind of personality that makes strangers dump their issues onto me because I come off as someone easy to talk to. (And i am). I do want men to open up. I want them to be emotional. I want them to have that opportunity to vent because maybe , like shea, no one ever asked them how they feel. That's why I'll never tell a man that he's being too much or I cant handle his emotions or anything like that because to me it feels like a small sacrifice of my time to help someone overcome trauma. BUT... when I see men in the comments saying "women dont actually want emotional men" and "notice how the men who open up the her are all her FRIENDS. Not boyfriends", I think they may not realize that pretty often, men opening up happens like the guy above, and it makes moving forward in a romantic relationship harder. Just a thought.

@@collegiatefinesse Its simple. Never has it done any good for men to change based on what women say they want. Men who only listen to women and change themselves based on that get skipped for the alpha. Women contradict themselves all the time and don't know what they want. When you look at biology its quite simple. You need to be able to lead, be more logical, be like a rock for your family to fall back on etc. A woman can say she wants you to open up and be able to be emotional etc but that goes against your nature to some extend. Now of course we are still humans and we all have emotions, however often there is no point in sharing those emotions with your woman or in front of your kids as you are their leader. Imagine being in a war and your commander is getting all emotional and panicking. As a soldier you"ll lose respect for him. Now he still human and can surely pick his place to let go of his frustrations and share his emotions.. just not in front of his men. I guess it comes down to being truly masculine, being real and staying logical even when it comes to being emotional. That means you can choose when & with whom its a good time to share your problems etc

@@collegiatefinesse you are basically where the idea that men should never show emotion ever come from. men have two options, be human or be successful. most are going to choose the second

@@pathlastname9278 Men or women, *nobody* wants a laundry list of emotional baggage dumped on them. It’s a fact of life. Nobody wants to be your therapist, and sometimes people who aren’t used to being listened to become over eager to share and forget that.

@@collegiatefinesse I’m sure you mean well, but you’re entering dangerous territory here. If there’s truly no chance of you wishing to be in a relationship with this guy, maybe you shouldn’t be stroking his neck or encouraging him to express himself. How would *you* feel if someone led you on like that after being the first person he could open up to? I’ve learned this the *hard* way, sometimes a bit of detachment between friends is a good thing.

A lot of people don't even have those kinds of friends. It's very rare for me, I wish I could have it more often. Most of the time conversations focus on the issue at hand.

@@hgzmatt I'll admit I am very lucky to have friends that I am able to talk with like that. I takes me a while to open up and feel close with people so the friends I do have I treasure. I feel for you, I hope that you are able to open up and talk comfortably when you need it and lend an ear in return.

@@1chenann I'm really happy for you. It took me a while to recover from the stuff I went through in my teens and I just need to stop moving around so much so I can build a social circle. I think I was running from it and it killed all friendships.

@@hgzmatt thanks, i hope you are okay despite circumstances and that you find the friendships you are looking for. I know online is not really the same but if you need someone to talk to you can reach out to me on discord :)

@@1chenann I really appreciate it, Annie. I do wish you lived around here somewhere and we could go for a walk or something. I don't really enjoy talking over the internet and I'm a little too cynical to just go for it. I am fine though, I moved back in with my parents while the pandemic is happening. I'm working from home and there are no serious issues other than longing for more social interactions.

The idea of "a man" is far more of a destructivr entity than any man or woman can be by themselves,and i hate how toxic masculinity has become a virtue signaling tool in public spaces, as you said,history gets brushed aside,so do any ideas for alternatives or a way forward. "He's toxic" and thats usually how the discourse ends.

It's almost like for hundreds and hundreds of years women's only responsibility was to make babies and take care of the house. They didn't set up society, so if you don't like society, social norms, it's hard to blame that on women.

@@sburkie9 Yeah, all those damn male Queens ruining society.

@@sburkie9 A lot of male rulers who were terrible people were encouraged by their female lovers, so women definitely share the blame. Read Macbeth sometime.

@@sburkie9 imagine being so reductionist, lol. You just want to blame everything on men, probably out of some resentment, and you try to justify it by parroting bogus feminazi talking points. "Only men set up society" my dear God, lmao. The very fact that women "took care of the house" is disproving your point. The one who raises children has an enormous influence on society. It's a reocurring theme in many traditionalist societies that men are kinda afraid of their wives. I wonder why.

Lol